Compliment for the Thief Balance changes
I totally disagree with the OP, nerfs everywhere while the stuff that is already strong against thieves on other proffessions got buffed.
The changes to poison will make it a lot harder to keep it up for healing reduction and now powerbuilds will lose significant damage on all the “hybrid-skills” like cluster bomb and death blossom etc.
Our falling damage reduction trait got moved from adept to grandmaster (all the other professions have it on master). This probably was totally op on an adept level…
Resilience of shadows, another nerf in context with the imunities and protection available to other professsions this is just a joke now, especially since they removed the “get might in stealth trait”, which it now replaces.
And do not get me started on the fact that engineers can have almost 50% uptime on revealed now. And it gets applied with no tell at all.
Buffs to the burning spam, haha….
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Good luck developing, ’cause you need it.
(edited by Bazzoong.7145)
I guess you have some points.
Condition changes on Poison probably will be some nerf to thief. Though I think we still have some potential of keeping our poison up. (But you’re right that its less then before)
Falling damage trait, I don’t think anyone in sPvP would pick this trait for that reason. (Nor PvE) but you might say that for WvW this would be a nice trait to put a bit lower on the line. Though I think the real benefit of that trait is blind on stealth, which is why most people would pick this skill I think.
Uptime of Revealedness of Engineer might be true, but lets be honest: I don’t think engineers will pick Lock On and Analyze. I mean the traits only serve a purpose against thieves and maybe mesmers. Unless you really want to build a counter thief/mesmer build, the trait and skill is pretty much useless in other situations. So I don’t think this is a valid point. But of course that’s my opinion.
Burning damage got nerfed a lot from
(0.25 * Condition Damage) + 328
to
131 + (0.155 * Condition Damage)
So I don’t think burning will be OP or anything.
And look at it from the positive side!: We got some good traits, (panic strike + executioner combo) and S/D is likely to be revived again too!
I think these changes are satisfying.
EDIT: You’re right that there are some traits nerfed, but in general I think this doesn’t outweigh the good traits we got.
Don’t Stop: The effects of cripple and chill on you are reduced by 50%, meaning your movement is decreased by 25% and 33% respectively, rather than 50% and 66%. If you would become immobilized, you are instead crippled for 4 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 10 seconds.
Also a very overpowered trait!
Fixed
Yaniam [Mesmer]
^ Usually only characer that i play on
^ Usually only characer that i play on
i disagree with op completely. burning can also stack now and if there are mesmer and thief on the team every engineer will use it to shut down thief, especially in low rank play. i think d/p meta zerk is dead and i’m not sure about s/d being a proper alternative (was nerfed hard also). when engi runs anti stealth trait thief d/x does little damage. high risk low reward gameplay
i disagree with op completely. burning can also stack now and if there are mesmer and thief on the team every engineer will use it to shut down thief, especially in low rank play. i think d/p meta zerk is dead and i’m not sure about s/d being a proper alternative (was nerfed hard also). when engi runs anti stealth trait thief d/x does little damage. high risk low reward gameplay
Thief changes are strong asf, but engi might wreck thieves, yes. SD wasn’t nerfed.
Yaniam [Mesmer]
^ Usually only characer that i play on
^ Usually only characer that i play on
i disagree with op completely. burning can also stack now and if there are mesmer and thief on the team every engineer will use it to shut down thief, especially in low rank play. i think d/p meta zerk is dead and i’m not sure about s/d being a proper alternative (was nerfed hard also). when engi runs anti stealth trait thief d/x does little damage. high risk low reward gameplay
Thief changes are strong asf, but engi might wreck thieves, yes. SD wasn’t nerfed.
ofc s/d was very good until november or something, now it’s much weaker. i dont know any good pvp player who still plays it apart frome diehard s/d thief sizer, who retired i think
I agree with Quadox,
I mean Engi might indeed counter Thief when they take Analyse and Lock On. But there will always be counters. Necromancer counters Engineer hard (when played right of course) and shoves its condi’s right back in his face. On low level play they might pick this trait, but I think Streamlined Kits is worth much more, so most engineers won’t pick this.
S/D is good as it is I think! Maybe the straightout endurance is a bit nerfed, but there are some nice traits that trigger on successful evading.
I don’t see why d/x would do less damage on an engi.:P You just are more vulnarable to attacks, which makes it better to pick another target.
Quadox!: We’ll see if it’s OP! I think even with 25% and 33% decrease in movement speed, crippled and chill are still conditions that really hinder a thief.
i disagree with op completely. burning can also stack now and if there are mesmer and thief on the team every engineer will use it to shut down thief, especially in low rank play. i think d/p meta zerk is dead and i’m not sure about s/d being a proper alternative (was nerfed hard also). when engi runs anti stealth trait thief d/x does little damage. high risk low reward gameplay
Thief changes are strong asf, but engi might wreck thieves, yes. SD wasn’t nerfed.
S/D was nerfed. Not gonna discuss whether it was necessary or not, but it got nerfed.
Sure, there is that nice trait for initiative regain, but:
1. the new Feline Grace reduces the overall amount of dodges
2. vigor got nerfed, of course that also hits other classes but S/D is the only build that entirely depends on dodges (and teleports)
3. the current Endless Stamina ensures that S/D thieves have more regular dodges than other classes, but you dont get that +10% dmg from Fluid Strikes
sure you can take panic strike and executioner/improvisation now, but i left that out as thats simply due to having 3 full trait lines which every profession/build gets
PvP, Teef & Engi
i disagree with op completely. burning can also stack now and if there are mesmer and thief on the team every engineer will use it to shut down thief, especially in low rank play. i think d/p meta zerk is dead and i’m not sure about s/d being a proper alternative (was nerfed hard also). when engi runs anti stealth trait thief d/x does little damage. high risk low reward gameplay
Thief changes are strong asf, but engi might wreck thieves, yes. SD wasn’t nerfed.
S/D was nerfed. Not gonna discuss whether it was necessary or not, but it got nerfed.
Sure, there is that nice trait for initiative regain, but:
1. the new Feline Grace reduces the overall amount of dodges
2. vigor got nerfed, of course that also hits other classes but S/D is the only build that entirely depends on dodges (and teleports)
3. the current Endless Stamina ensures that S/D thieves have more regular dodges than other classes, but you dont get that +10% dmg from Fluid Strikessure you can take panic strike and executioner/improvisation now, but i left that out as thats simply due to having 3 full trait lines which every profession/build gets
Maybe you know more about S/D then we do. I think S/D is still a viable option though. So basically it means that only thieves have 100 percent endurance regen right? But Upper Hand and Don’t Stop are nice grandmaster traits if you ask me. You’re right though when you say the Acrobatics doesn’t provide extra damage anymore, and the dodges might be affected a bit
Though I don’t think that the points you mention above will break S/D. Personally I think the decrease endurance regen for vigor brings professions without vigor (e.g. Necromancer and the like) a bit more up to par.
But I must admit, I am not a S/D player (even though I played it for a while). So it might be true that it will be harder to play it now.
I also have to disagree.
All other profession received strong buffs through the whole bank, while the Thief (again) received only minion buffs at many sections, where nobody ever asked for it, while many other things got either removed or nerfed.
Theres once again no other profession, that received among the changes so many nerfs, like the thief, while all others mostly received only buffs.
They still changed not some useless traits, they still kept obsolete stuff in there, like the fall damage traits, instat of makign them either baseline or turnign them into a movement based mastery what would make a ton times more sense.
Now Step by Step:
Steal Changes:
- Some QoL improvement and 2 little buffs
General Changes
- Certain Skill given now a SKill Category, makign them changeable with accourdign traits for decreased Cooldowns – Buff
- Movement System CHanges liek for everyone – Neutral Buff, as it affects everyone, so Pro/Con
- Removing the Base Damage from all Traps – Nerf with the silly intention to make them no reveal us anymore, somethign, that could have been changed also, without removing the Damage, by simpy making traps not reveal you, as traps are no direct damage, they are indirect damage where your characters weapon is not the source from. Reveal should come only from direct damage caused by a thief’s weapon skill.
Thats why Choking Gas got basically nerfed and added an initial direct damage part on hit, so that it reveals thieves… – all thief traps already were from release day on ridiculously underpowered and total garbage compared to any of the ranger traps!! Now they will be even far more garbage than ever before. GG. - Cloak and Dagger Damage nerfed for PvE (WTF WHY???) by 17%
- 5% damage buff for all dual weapon skills – buff, but laughable, a like 15-20% damage increase would be far more appropiate to make the dual weapon skills far more outstanding compared to the single handed weapon skills.
- The 5% dagger damage increase from the taining trait removed – nerf, makes the above change even far more ridiculous >.>
- Venoms have now 1 more charge. -Buff, Wow, awesome, really, venoms belong redesigned since game release and should be a much more integrated gameplay part of the thief in general. They never will be that with a silly charge system. Venoms belong to be changed into a duration system with unlimited charges as long the duration hasnt expired!! Venoms should much more influence the effects of the weapon skills, so that they have a much bigger impact on the gameplay of thieves to make thieves alot lesser predictable and give them more versatility in combat.
- Lots of Poison Duration increases, that brign not very much, when Conditions can be instantly removed, converted or be thrown back at you, its again a neutral buff, cause all other proffessions got also tons of condition duration increases.
- Choking Gas Poison Duration nerf (WHY?)
- Ranger, Necromancer and Guardian Steal Skill got all nerfed in their max durations.
Trait Changes
- Like said above, Dagger training got nerfed
- Ricochet got removed, so no increased pistol range anymore, while all other professionds receive range increases any many skills WTF
- Many traits of the thief are half of the tiem useless, because you easiyl will lose either their effects (your health under 90%, and you have mostly a wasted trait slot all of the time)
- Still useless Reviving and fall Damage Traits there, which should get exchanged with far more useful stuff
- Still such junk there, like Last Refuge
- Vigor nerfed, so that such obsolete junk like Endless Stamina just has a stupid reason for its existance
- Still no traits there, that make Thieves lesser independant on lots of Stealth/Dodges, like traits that give is somehow blocks to attacks , stability, increase the range of shortbow to 1200 so that its again useful for defending places like towers/keeps in in WvW without shooting permanently into the stupid dumb wall rims- we can’t even use our groudn target attacks, cause we are with that reta* peep* 900 range permantly out of range >.< The velocity of clusterbomb should get finally also increased and it should be shot at a slightly higher angle to prevent finalyl that stupid wall rim problem.
Theres alot more old traits that got removed, than Ricochet and would have beeen better choices, than to keep that mostly useless Last Refuge which many thief players want to see gettign removed or changed for years now.
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
You name some nerfs, But I actually think those are all small nerfs that don’t really effect us a lot. You only look at the negative sides, but if you look at traits like Shadows Rejuvenation, then you can clearly see that some things are buffed too.
- The old Dagger Training might become baseline.
- Every profession has falling damage traits and resurrection traits (If I am correct)
- Keen Observer: This is the one you probably ment from Critical strikes. You’re right that this trait is not too shabby.
- Last Refuge can be a very nice trait, Though it doesn’t compete with Shadows Embrace. But if all traits were that powerful, other professions would complain.
- We’re the only profession that can have 200 percent endurance regen, while other professions can only have 150. It is a small nerf, but not huge or anything I believe.
- About the range for thieves! Wait for the Elite Specialisation, many people are thinking it will be rifle with a longer range.
- Venoms that got a buff is a pretty big buff. Imagine this:
Backstab → Triggers Basilisk Venom → Heartseeker → Triggers the second Basilisk Venom → Heartseeker. Believe me that this will kill most mesmers already.
- Cloak and Dagger is actually buffed in PvP by a nice amount.
- I think the condi’s of traps got a little buffed to make up for the damage decrease.
All by all I still believe the buffs outweigh the bad things, expecially since we can now run a full Shadow Arts line. (Which gives us some healing! Wohoo)
i disagree with op completely. burning can also stack now and if there are mesmer and thief on the team every engineer will use it to shut down thief, especially in low rank play. i think d/p meta zerk is dead and i’m not sure about s/d being a proper alternative (was nerfed hard also). when engi runs anti stealth trait thief d/x does little damage. high risk low reward gameplay
Thief changes are strong asf, but engi might wreck thieves, yes. SD wasn’t nerfed.
S/D was nerfed. Not gonna discuss whether it was necessary or not, but it got nerfed.
Sure, there is that nice trait for initiative regain, but:
1. the new Feline Grace reduces the overall amount of dodges
2. vigor got nerfed, of course that also hits other classes but S/D is the only build that entirely depends on dodges (and teleports)
3. the current Endless Stamina ensures that S/D thieves have more regular dodges than other classes, but you dont get that +10% dmg from Fluid Strikessure you can take panic strike and executioner/improvisation now, but i left that out as thats simply due to having 3 full trait lines which every profession/build gets
Maybe you know more about S/D then we do. I think S/D is still a viable option though. So basically it means that only thieves have 100 percent endurance regen right? But Upper Hand and Don’t Stop are nice grandmaster traits if you ask me. You’re right though when you say the Acrobatics doesn’t provide extra damage anymore, and the dodges might be affected a bit
Though I don’t think that the points you mention above will break S/D. Personally I think the decrease endurance regen for vigor brings professions without vigor (e.g. Necromancer and the like) a bit more up to par.
But I must admit, I am not a S/D player (even though I played it for a while). So it might be true that it will be harder to play it now.
I know you saw it, but just so that everyone knows what i’m talking about:
(taken from a post of mine in another thread)
They wont simply add that bonus so that we are back to our current vigor number.
Currently, we are getting double the endurance with vigor, no changes can be made to that. Thats our current 100% of vigor effectiveness.
With the changes, we will be getting 1,5x the endurance with vigor, but that will be the new 100% for vigor. meaning, if they say that that minor is making vigor 50% more effective, we are talking about 150% of vigor effectiveness with the changes.
Meaning:
- Vigor right now: 2x the endurance gain (100%)
- Untraited vigor with the changes: 1,5x the endurance gain (100% then, in comparison to now 50%)
- Traited vigor with the changes: 1,75x the endurance gain (150% then, in comparison to now 75%)
[also, i dont think they will simply add the 50% to the vigor regen as you hoped in your answer in the othe thread – iirc they never did that before, so as long as its not released yet it should be safe to assume it would end up being 75% of the current vigor]
Overall S/D will be nerfed but I think it will still be playable – even tho S/P may get some more attention with the same playstyle (due to being able to take Panic Strike = long immobilize)
with S/P you would have more burst in combination with stuns and Panic Strike, at the cost of being way more predictable
S/D got nerfed, both in dmg and defense, but esepcially with the GMs in Acro that may make it viable to play
Even though its a hard decision between the Immobilize-Immunity on a 10s CD and the initative on evade on a 3 sec CD – i would tend to take the extra Initiative but we’ll have to see how important the initiative-trait removals turn out to be
PvP, Teef & Engi
(edited by Tarkan.5609)
I think I would go for the extra initiative too. You might be right S/D is nerfed a bit. But I think D/P is definitly not nerfed. The vigor could use a buff though if you want it to compete to the current standart of it.
I do think the movement speed changes are nice for the Flanking Strike skills though!
Don’t get caught up with Endless Stamina…until they change the core functionality of Endurance, the endurance rate will cap at 100%.
Endurance is the resource used to dodge incoming attacks to evade them. The endurance pool is shown as a yellow bar just above the health orb.
Each dodge requires 50% endurance, meaning that characters can dodge twice in a row when at 100% endurance. Endurance regenerates over time, at a base rate of 5% per second and a max rate of 10% per second – effects which grant additional endurance regeneration do not stack beyond double the normal rate – for instance, any additional endurance regeneration while under effects of boon vigor (which already grants maximum increase in regeneration rate) has no effect.
http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Don’t get caught up with Endless Stamina…until they change the core functionality of Endurance, the endurance rate will cap at 100%.
The only way to go up to 100% endurance regen after the changes is with that one food though
i think thats +40% so would be 115%… the last 15% being totally useless
PvP, Teef & Engi
The only way to go up to 100% endurance regen after the changes is with that one food though
i think thats +40% so would be 115%… the last 15% being totally useless
Um, after the change we’ll get 150% vigor just by picking Acro. Unless they changed how endurance works, that 50% from Endless Stamina will have no effect.
http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
The only way to go up to 100% endurance regen after the changes is with that one food though
i think thats +40% so would be 115%… the last 15% being totally uselessUm, after the change we’ll get 150% vigor just by picking Acro. Unless they changed how endurance works, that 50% from Endless Stamina will have no effect.
Ehm Anet are reducing the effectiveness of vigor by 50%
meaning the new 3rd minor trait in acro will give you vigor of an effectiveness thats equal to 75% of what vigor is currently doing
for everyone else vigor will have 50% of its effectiveness compared to the way its now
to be clear: Endless Stamina is the 3rd minor in acro atm which increases your dmg by 10% if your endurance is not full
It’s getting removed, the only real dmg increase that acro ever had (along with the removed might on dodge)
PvP, Teef & Engi
The only way to go up to 100% endurance regen after the changes is with that one food though
i think thats +40% so would be 115%… the last 15% being totally uselessUm, after the change we’ll get 150% vigor just by picking Acro. Unless they changed how endurance works, that 50% from Endless Stamina will have no effect.
Ehm Anet are reducing the effectiveness of vigor by 50%
meaning the new 3rd minor trait in acro will give you vigor of an effectiveness thats equal to 75% of what vigor is currently doing
for everyone else vigor will have 50% of its effectiveness compared to the way its nowto be clear: Endless Stamina is the 3rd minor in acro atm which increases your dmg by 10% if your endurance is not full
It’s getting removed, the only real dmg increase that acro ever had (along with the removed might on dodge)
Makes sense. I wouldn’t change the endurance functionality either.
I probably need to check the notes again because I don’t remember reading the vigor change. Thanks.
http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
snip
probably need to check the notes again because I don’t remember reading the vigor change. Thanks.
No problem, its roght at the beginning along with the rest of the boon changes. Easy to just accidentally scroll over
PvP, Teef & Engi
snip
probably need to check the notes again because I don’t remember reading the vigor change. Thanks.No problem, its roght at the beginning along with the rest of the boon changes. Easy to just accidentally scroll over
Ah found it. /facepalm
Thanks again.
http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
I think I would go for the extra initiative too. You might be right S/D is nerfed a bit. But I think D/P is definitly not nerfed. The vigor could use a buff though if you want it to compete to the current standart of it.
I do think the movement speed changes are nice for the Flanking Strike skills though!
i c wut ur doing
What the heck will we be running in PvE now? Something like this?
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgcBvALkBdQ~
There are so many useless traits =/
I love how Anet nerfed our current abilities because we have “New awesome traits” which warranted the nerf in the first place. So now you either take these traits, or you’re nerfed.
What a pathetic update for thieves this is turning out to be. Everyone is getting buffs, and we are yet again, being shafted with not only boring and uninspired changes, but nerfs as well.
I am extremely unhappy with these changes. Anything that’s remotely good as far as changes go, caters almost entirely to burst thieves. We aren’t going to change for the better, mostly for the worst, while everyone else gets awesome new changes.
Acro got pooped on and CS is kind of lackluster. At least we can all get pigeonholed into still using mug and having a decent DA / SA / Trickery lineup. But it sure isn’t going to bring any more diversity, rather, less. Because that’s what big changes are about for thieves, right? Taking away more viable builds.
IMO, Thief is on the way to the bottom. And people will still QQ that we’re OP and have no counter play.
Overall I like the changes, much better than the previous version.
Underworld Vabbi 1.5yr
Overall I like the changes, much better than the previous version.
We have some new interesting mechanics in the traits:
CS: Maintain Fury uptime possibily permanently
Acrobatics: Lot’s of procs on evade (initiative, steal recharge, vigor)
Personally I think the new meta will become DA|SA|TR
which would finally give us some sustain of the SA line. This way we do not have to keep running everytime to get HP again:P (even though we have to stay in stealth for a little while)
I love how Anet nerfed our current abilities because we have “New awesome traits” which warranted the nerf in the first place. So now you either take these traits, or you’re nerfed.
What a pathetic update for thieves this is turning out to be. Everyone is getting buffs, and we are yet again, being shafted with not only boring and uninspired changes, but nerfs as well.
I am extremely unhappy with these changes. Anything that’s remotely good as far as changes go, caters almost entirely to burst thieves. We aren’t going to change for the better, mostly for the worst, while everyone else gets awesome new changes.
Acro got pooped on and CS is kind of lackluster. At least we can all get pigeonholed into still using mug and having a decent DA / SA / Trickery lineup. But it sure isn’t going to bring any more diversity, rather, less. Because that’s what big changes are about for thieves, right? Taking away more viable builds.
IMO, Thief is on the way to the bottom. And people will still QQ that we’re OP and have no counter play.
You should look on other professions forums:P In general everyone is complaining about their own profession.:P I can understand some people might have a hard time adjusting or some things were plainly removed. But maybe it gives us a new fresh start to try some new cool things?
Feline Grace: Nice that you changed this to 1 second CD, which means S/D is hopefully going to be some good choice again!
Endless Stamina: Nice that this changed from 20 to 50 percent. (Otherwise the impact of it might have been to low)
These traits replace 15 endurance(50 endurance=1dodge) on dodge and 10% damage bonus. +Vigor nerf = disaster.
Even without the vigor nerf this is worse than the actual feline grace and 10%dmg traits by far.
Thieves die for making a single mistake in terms of dodging anyway so these gain vigor/initiative on successful evade don’t incentivise anything good. Thief has low base hp, low armor, no extra sustain. This in my opinion has the opposite effect compared to what they are attempting to achieve: they move the emphasis from dodging important skills to just dodge anything. Totally wrong approach.
Revert these changes please…
Also the other changes are good indeed. I especially like the passive stealth trait moved from minor because tons of times it has killed me by making me instarevealed, then when i try to stealth away I can’t.
Thief balance thread here.
6k+ PvP games
6k+ PvP games
I’m curious to see what the thief opinion on the new improvisation trait is with respect to the mesmer steal skill consume plasma. As a mesmer, I feel that it’s going to be brutally overpowered and needs to be completely reworked from the ground up, as it’ll be too hard to balance it (it would either be useless due to low duration or too strong, hard to find a good spot).
For those who aren’t aware, consume plasma provides 10s of every boon excepting retal (5s) and stab (3s). Steal when fully traited is on a 19.5s cooldowns, and improvisation allows you to use stolen bundles twice, providing a 100% uptime of almost every boon in the game.