Guild Wars 2

a t s e.9614:

I just tryed the condi build P/D with 30 SA and wow it is probably the easiest build by far. Even more than MM necro I would say. You get low on hp? Perma reset with stealth and regen.

It really feels like a bunker-troll build that is completly useless in spvp outside of hotjoin . Also I see alot of people in solo Q running around with this build. They are basicly doing nothing for the team but whatever.

So yea some people have been trashing D/P and S/D power builds which is really funny because nothing is more easier than P/D condi thief in the entiere game. Even PU mesmers cant reset a fight like this.

But anyway I might use this to troll in hotjoin and no where else, it feels cheap too since its the build that kills people and not my own skill.

Im talking about 2/0/6/0/6 build with krait runes , to make it more cheesy I need to unlock the confusion on steal GM trait.

Hmm P/D can reset fights exactly same way as any X/D. Use your logics, woman.

Ah you again the troll that said pu was op. Actually learning new things now? Finally realize that pu is a terrible build to use? Thats good. P/d is fun n easy to learn welcome to thief

easier than MM necro!? HA! No thief build is that easy. P/D is definitely training wheels spec but come on.

Yea agreed the mm necro is jst ridiculos but a skilled p/d player should beat one as lkng as they dont get to close. Also i find ledging the minons works wonders if you have the terrain to do so.

a t s e.9614:

Yea PU is useless too just like this P/D thief build and btw sorry if I offended some people who use this build. Im sure someday you will get bored of playing an ez-mode build by yourself. Not crying for nerfs right here it just surprising how it turned out to be easier than MM necro.

Define useless.

Karolis.4261:

a t s e.9614:

Yea PU is useless too just like this P/D thief build and btw sorry if I offended some people who use this build. Im sure someday you will get bored of playing an ez-mode build by yourself. Not crying for nerfs right here it just surprising how it turned out to be easier than MM necro.

Define useless.

I explained it to him ovwr in the mes forum. Bad tpvp or pvp in general(reliengt on stealth) wvw u can walk away from pu like its nothing. (No mobility)

I have a hard time believing you were literally so shocked that you felt the rest of the community needed another substance-less post about the difficulty of P/D. You’re a year late to the party.

he hasn’t had the game for a year yet leave him alone

a t s e.9614:

I just tryed the condi build P/D with 30 SA and wow it is probably the easiest build by far. Even more than MM necro I would say. You get low on hp? Perma reset with stealth and regen.

It really feels like a bunker-troll build that is completly useless in spvp outside of hotjoin . Also I see alot of people in solo Q running around with this build. They are basicly doing nothing for the team but whatever.

So yea some people have been trashing D/P and S/D power builds which is really funny because nothing is more easier than P/D condi thief in the entiere game. Even PU mesmers cant reset a fight like this.

But anyway I might use this to troll in hotjoin and no where else, it feels cheap too since its the build that kills people and not my own skill.

Im talking about 2/0/6/0/6 build with krait runes , to make it more cheesy I need to unlock the confusion on steal GM trait.

Well the funny thing is… I bunker home and mid sometimes on my thief P/D build, while still being able to down someone in 5 seconds flat, and it’s not OP because all I have on is 4 condi’s, 2 of which can be useless if you are smart. Those condi’s are Confusion and Torment.. I get 4-5 torments on you and 6-8 stacks of Confusion, and maybe a poison stack and If you continue to move and do spells, you are a gonner for sure. People complain so much really.. I think Necro’s are too OP, but guess what… We all have to deal with it. It’s not like you are the only one feeling that thieves are OP. I bet you can find a thread on this forums complaining that all of the classes are WAY TOO OP!!!! Well, there is one thing I gotta say… You are playing a game, enjoy it and stop complaining.

You need to improve your reading skills, if you can find the word overpowered in my post
I will give you all my money. I’m just saying its funny how useless and skill less builds are strong in 1v1.

And no actually you can’t bunk home with a P/D thief, any thief using such build in tournies is useless and gets carried hard if his team manages to win.

Welcome to the club.
PD condi is the easiest, cheesiest and most effective build for 1v1s. Even condi necros can be killed with PD now.
I’d put it on par with PU for the cheesiness/uselessness. It’s basically a build which shouts “hey look at me im putting condis on you lololol”.
Same as PU basically. With the difference that PU is more passive, but this is still more forgiving.

When we make duells and we see that one play P/D or PU then he got banned from the duells.
This two builds are the greatest bullkitten i ever see in PvP modi.No Activ gameplay only spamming and passiv lolololo gameplay.

Welcome to the club ? Nan, I feel bad for killing people with P/D unless its a PU mesmer. The only one that comes close to the “facerollness” of P/D is condi banner/shout warrior.
Those are probably top 3 faceroll builds

- P/D
- PU
- condi banner war

what gear are you using? there are some combinations that make this build really powerful, and some combos that make it bad, also, if you know even more how to use it its strong, but like i said, that strength comes at a cost. wondering if your setup is the same as mine.

Im using carrion amulet its not even full cheese lol and the build is pretty faceroll without toughness. carrion amulet is condi dmg, power , vitality. If there was dire gear in PvP then I could probably sleep while playing P/D condi.

And no there’s no downside for this build, basicly the downside is that its too boring to play and not challenging .

a t s e.9614:

You need to improve your reading skills, if you can find the word overpowered in my post
I will give you all my money. I’m just saying its funny how useless and skill less builds are strong in 1v1.

And no actually you can’t bunk home with a P/D thief, any thief using such build in tournies is useless and gets carried hard if his team manages to win.

Not being carried… I do just as much as the rest of my team. We make it work soooooo yeah. It may be easy, but you just cant be happy if someones’s class is too good. Like I said before, people in games are so upset when a build is good, it’s like people want builds to be so difficult…Games are built for a ton of different play styles, Thief P/D build is for someone who enjoys an easy gameplay style, something like D/D, that person likes something more difficult. Just personal preference.

Actually easiest to play are this order:

1. Decap Engi
2. Hambow
3. Spirit ranger
4. mm necro

P/D is really dependent on the quality of opponent given the dependency on CnD.

Decap and hambow are mediocre in 1v1 and MM necro is fairly easy to kill even if its easy to play the MM yourself. Nothing is easier than perma resseting your health in stealth, its like having 10 heals instead of 1.

style.6173:

Actually easiest to play are this order:

1. Decap Engi
2. Hambow
3. Spirit ranger
4. mm necro

P/D is really dependent on the quality of opponent given the dependency on CnD.

I agree with this… All you gotta do is carry some condi clear and you are just fine against a pd thief

Anhomedog.7968:

style.6173:

Actually easiest to play are this order:

1. Decap Engi
2. Hambow
3. Spirit ranger
4. mm necro

P/D is really dependent on the quality of opponent given the dependency on CnD.

I agree with this… All you gotta do is carry some condi clear and you are just fine against a pd thief

Lolwut?
Some Condi clear?

Anhomedog.7968:

style.6173:

Actually easiest to play are this order:

1. Decap Engi
2. Hambow
3. Spirit ranger
4. mm necro

P/D is really dependent on the quality of opponent given the dependency on CnD.

I agree with this… All you gotta do is carry some condi clear and you are just fine against a pd thief

what happens when the thief begins playing to your weaknesses, bursting you when your condi clear is on cd? also carrion is a good setup for this kind of build, but by far not even the more powerful it could become, dire also looks good on paper, havent tried it yet, due to the lack of dire gear, however i do run with what i think is dire trinkets, relanas band/plague idol. i agree with the listing, but that doesent mean we cant beat things in that list, i destroy hambow, most necros, i think spirit ranger gives me the most trouble. due to spirits taking shots/giving protection, in which case it comes down to how much damage the ranger is doing versus how fast you can kill its spirits

Scribbles.3974:

I agree with this… All you gotta do is carry some condi clear and you are just fine against a pd thief

what happens when the thief begins playing to your weaknesses, bursting you when your condi clear is on cd? also carrion is a good setup for this kind of build, but by far not even the more powerful it could become, dire also looks good on paper, havent tried it yet, due to the lack of dire gear, however i do run with what i think is dire trinkets, relanas band/plague idol. i agree with the listing, but that doesent mean we cant beat things in that list, i destroy hambow, most necros, i think spirit ranger gives me the most trouble. due to spirits taking shots/giving protection, in which case it comes down to how much damage the ranger is doing versus how fast you can kill its spirits[/quote]

I’ve messed around with P/D dire build in WvW, and it’s hilariously easy and powerful to use. After a while it does get very boring though, so I spend most of my time in my D/D build once I get tired of P/D. Honestly, I think the biggest strength of P/D comes from the fact that not as many players are used to having to counter it just yet. Before the April 15th patch it wasn’t as common place, but it’s starting to gain more popularity now that players are looking for another means to deal damage, and not everyone want to buy strength runes. As a result, the thief roam meta shifts slightly more into condi bunker with P/D. It’s the easiest weapon set and build for us thieves at the moment (especially in terms for roaming in WvW) and it just so happens to counter some very popular builds on other classes quite well. Where it can take me 10 minutes to kill a good PU mesmer on my D/D build, it can take less than a minute with a dire P/D. You can call it cheese, or broken, or whatever, but it’s in the game so expect it to be used, especially when the meta of other classes in certain aspects of the game lose to it harder than our other builds. That’s just the natural progression and shifting of play styles over time is all. I mean, people used to complain about warriors with their hammers a whole lot more, and then everyone just started blinding them. Players adapt and overcome (good ones do at least), so rest assured, the “P/D cheese” will eventually see competition that drives it into an unfavorable position and another “cheese” build will surface.

I’m still failing to see the point of this topic. I think OP is just bad, so are the rest of ya. Cheers.

godz raiden.2631:

Scribbles.3974:

I agree with this… All you gotta do is carry some condi clear and you are just fine against a pd thief

what happens when the thief begins playing to your weaknesses, bursting you when your condi clear is on cd? also carrion is a good setup for this kind of build, but by far not even the more powerful it could become, dire also looks good on paper, havent tried it yet, due to the lack of dire gear, however i do run with what i think is dire trinkets, relanas band/plague idol. i agree with the listing, but that doesent mean we cant beat things in that list, i destroy hambow, most necros, i think spirit ranger gives me the most trouble. due to spirits taking shots/giving protection, in which case it comes down to how much damage the ranger is doing versus how fast you can kill its spirits

I’ve messed around with P/D dire build in WvW, and it’s hilariously easy and powerful to use. After a while it does get very boring though, so I spend most of my time in my D/D build once I get tired of P/D. Honestly, I think the biggest strength of P/D comes from the fact that not as many players are used to having to counter it just yet. Before the April 15th patch it wasn’t as common place, but it’s starting to gain more popularity now that players are looking for another means to deal damage, and not everyone want to buy strength runes. As a result, the thief roam meta shifts slightly more into condi bunker with P/D. It’s the easiest weapon set and build for us thieves at the moment (especially in terms for roaming in WvW) and it just so happens to counter some very popular builds on other classes quite well. Where it can take me 10 minutes to kill a good PU mesmer on my D/D build, it can take less than a minute with a dire P/D. You can call it cheese, or broken, or whatever, but it’s in the game so expect it to be used, especially when the meta of other classes in certain aspects of the game lose to it harder than our other builds. That’s just the natural progression and shifting of play styles over time is all. I mean, people used to complain about warriors with their hammers a whole lot more, and then everyone just started blinding them. Players adapt and overcome (good ones do at least), so rest assured, the “P/D cheese” will eventually see competition that drives it into an unfavorable position and another “cheese” build will surface.

[/quote]

I agree with this… If it’s in the game then it is gonna be used

i wonder if there is just a little group of us who use this build that uses apothecary gear……XD been running apothecary with this build since they nerfed assassins reward, pre reward nerf, this build was just so dumb from the fact it could litterally sit and tank like 7 people easy, post nerf, the effectiveness went down a little, now after this feature pack we get confusion, and the changed to krait runes just adds more icing ontop of the icing we get in 30 tricks, seriously, go try this build with apothecary and SoM and then come back and let me know how it goes XD its pretty powerful, but you sacrifice the hp, so with that setup you get more survivability imho, but it means that you have to play a lot more carefully, SoM and shadows rejuv, more than makes up for the hp, imho

The OP is saying P/D thief is dead easy and it is. Huge amount of condi pressure and a kitten load of survivavility.
I’m not hating on it, I tried it out and that was my experience with it

style.6173:

Actually easiest to play are this order:

1. Decap Engi
2. Hambow
3. Spirit ranger
4. mm necro

P/D is really dependent on the quality of opponent given the dependency on CnD.

Your exactly right also the above specs require far less effort to be effective for there team, when compared to a pd condi thief esp one with 6 in SA. Also dp thief counters pd.

I find condi P/D quite strong in sPvP and tPvP right now. Mostly because of how versatile it is, I can roam with high mobility and burst nearly as good as the GC builds, or I can fight on middle, or I can troll at far holding off 2 to 3 players.

I was playing a build like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAqYVlsMp7pNPx0J8PRRSBx9CCQC8uF1I+60DA-TpxCwAAOEATOBAaLDQ5IAI5BAMb/BA
And could contest quite good, it’s all up to you whether you’ll contest or not.

My burst rotation was:
Shortbow > BV>Steal to rip 2 boons and proc runeset next to the enemy > Weaponswap to trigger BV and put 4 bleeds and poison> CnD> Dodge for Caltrops > Sneak attack > Shadow Strike.

Sometimes Shadow Refuge for lifedrain on Sneak Attack.

Result:
5 Confusion, 3 Vulnerability, 20+ sec Poison, 12+ stacks of bleed and 3 torment.
If someone has their condi cleanse on cooldown they melt like butter.

On middle I was pressuring my opponents with caltrops, poison field and clusterbomb shatter spam.

I would say condi pd went from bad to viable due to the patch here is a video of one of the versions I use.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DuhKtUGgVsoo

>>I would say condi pd went from bad to viable due to the patch here is a video of one of the versions I use.

I have been using it of and on for quite some time. It was never really “bad”. The increase to INI regen back in december made it much more viable.

The last patch even more so and specifically due to BA and the new rune sets.

I notice in the description you use a sigil of Generosity. I found my build did not allow it to proc as much. Have you considered givers/malice combo to get all condition durations up by 20?

Nice video by the way.

Anhomedog.7968:

a t s e.9614:

You need to improve your reading skills, if you can find the word overpowered in my post
I will give you all my money. I’m just saying its funny how useless and skill less builds are strong in 1v1.

And no actually you can’t bunk home with a P/D thief, any thief using such build in tournies is useless and gets carried hard if his team manages to win.

Not being carried… I do just as much as the rest of my team. We make it work soooooo yeah. It may be easy, but you just cant be happy if someones’s class is too good. Like I said before, people in games are so upset when a build is good, it’s like people want builds to be so difficult…Games are built for a ton of different play styles, Thief P/D build is for someone who enjoys an easy gameplay style, something like D/D, that person likes something more difficult. Just personal preference.

What you are saying makes no sense whatsoever. True, build and game diversity is an asset, it’s a good thing there are different variants of play styles for people to pick. What doesn’t make sense, however, is the effectiveness of the said playstyles. PvP setting should always promote skilled and smart play over mindless ez-mode. What is really the point of actually picking a set with a high skill cap, if you can achieve the same result with less effort? By your reasoning a weaker may triumph over the more skilled player merely by running an easier, yet in terms of usefulness, equivalent build.

It’s not often that I struggle on my 1v1’s, but there have been several cases in WvW now where I have completely outplayed these condi cheesers, yet still had a hard time beating them. I had nailed my bursts on them, dodget their CnD’s, hardly getting a scratch on myself, completely outmatching the said Thieves. Yet why did I have troubles? What made the fights hard were the easy access to stealth and thus to sneak attack via utilities, especially so with Shadow Refuge. I dodged 5-6 Sneak Attack bursts in a row, but had the final burst nail me with condis. For the PD, it was a 0 risk situation, where he could just spam his Sneak Attack from the distance over and over again. At least the dagger thieves have to come up close, risking themselves at the same time for the burst.

Well, at least the build is only really good for WvW roaming/dueling. It might be viable in s/tPvP in the right hands, but it is not the best nor most effective choice, not even close to it.

Just for reference, I play a S/D trickery thief with mostly berserkers.

This is an incredibly pointless thread, and I’m questioning why I’m even posting in it. Your post has hardly any substantial material, and is has the sole intention of venting your frustration, which makes you sound like a child. Who cares if you find P/D to be an easy play style, honestly for 1v1 situations it is. It may surprise you, but PvP is not balanced around 1v1’s, and the effectiveness of a P/D thief diminishes in larger fights, because of its slow kill time and single target effectiveness. P/D has a easy entry skill level, but just like every weapon set, it has a high skill cap.

You then start to argue against yourself by pointing out that it is a virtually useless build outside of hotjoin. Great! That means it has no effect in competitive matches. Hotjoin exists for new pvp players and to try out new builds, obviously a weapon set with a relatively easy entry skill level will be abundant in hotjoins.

Also your point on the resetting abilities of a P/D thief being greater than any other weapon set’s is illogical. It has the same abilities of any offhand dagger thief to access stealth. D/P has a much easier time accessing stealth, and does not require an opponent.

P/D condi spec was always good and as easy as it might be to play. GS/Axe-shield zerker wars can still eat them for breakfast spit them out and dance on their corpse.

Pistol/Dagger is the weapon setup, then you have you traits and armor.
Despite all that, it’s still all on you and how you use your tools!
People need to stop blaming their tools and start fixing them selves.

If it’s hard to be responsible for your self in life at least try in a video game.

What method are you using OP to analyze and define “Easy”? I find a lot of players confusing frenetic pacing for difficulty. P/D has a slower more methodical approach to combat. Being condi based, it takes a little bit longer to kill than say D/D or S/D. Which gives more room for error. Now I too have complained about this build and instead of complaining further, I rolled one for WvW. Funny enough, I find myself doing more search-n-rescue and scouting on the battlefield than any 1v. So, are the builds cheesy and trolly or are the players themselves using them?

btw… before this build my thief sat at level 30ish for a year. Never liked D/D play style.

ignore the op tho, he goes into every proffession forum and says thats ‘this is op pls nerf’

check his posts

Ritt.3069:

It’s not often that I struggle on my 1v1’s, but there have been several cases in WvW now where I have completely outplayed these condi cheesers, yet still had a hard time beating them. I had nailed my bursts on them, dodget their CnD’s, hardly getting a scratch on myself, completely outmatching the said Thieves. Yet why did I have troubles? What made the fights hard were the easy access to stealth and thus to sneak attack via utilities, especially so with Shadow Refuge. I dodged 5-6 Sneak Attack bursts in a row, but had the final burst nail me with condis. For the PD, it was a 0 risk situation, where he could just spam his Sneak Attack from the distance over and over again. At least the dagger thieves have to come up close, risking themselves at the same time for the burst.

That doesn’t make sense, you dodged their C&D’s yet they had plenty access to stealth? Usually only one or two utilities provide stealth, on long cooldowns. Then you dodged their Sneak Attacks, 5 of them(?), not taking a scratch, but you got nailed by their last one? I don’t think so.

frans.8092:

Ritt.3069:

It’s not often that I struggle on my 1v1’s, but there have been several cases in WvW now where I have completely outplayed these condi cheesers, yet still had a hard time beating them. I had nailed my bursts on them, dodget their CnD’s, hardly getting a scratch on myself, completely outmatching the said Thieves. Yet why did I have troubles? What made the fights hard were the easy access to stealth and thus to sneak attack via utilities, especially so with Shadow Refuge. I dodged 5-6 Sneak Attack bursts in a row, but had the final burst nail me with condis. For the PD, it was a 0 risk situation, where he could just spam his Sneak Attack from the distance over and over again. At least the dagger thieves have to come up close, risking themselves at the same time for the burst.

That doesn’t make sense, you dodged their C&D’s yet they had plenty access to stealth? Usually only one or two utilities provide stealth, on long cooldowns. Then you dodged their Sneak Attacks, 5 of them(?), not taking a scratch, but you got nailed by their last one? I don’t think so.

True, if it wasn’t for the fact that they can spam Sneak Attack back-to-back safely 5 times in a row from Refuge until it finally hits. With S/D acrobatics set, I can maintaina high time of evade, but most of the classes have no counterplay against it, they just have to take the hit. You could argue that I could just shadow step out of combat for the while, but what’s really the point of me resetting combat when I’m on the offensive?

While those utilities are on a ‘long’ cooldown, there’s a few things you must first consider. First of all, you have Refuge, where you can spam Sneak Attack with zero risk until it hits. Secondly, if you run P/P or D/P as second set, you only need Black Powder + Blinding Powder (+leap) for possible 8-12s of stealth again. The long cooldowns suddenly don’t feel as long, when you can maintain high durations of stealth so easily. Most P/D thieves also run HiS, granting them yet another way of safely stealthing. P/D is mostly ran in WvW, where you can just nail your CnD’s off critters, in the best case, you don’t even need to make direct contact with your actual opponent. Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet also make it extremely easy nailing those CnD’s, if you’re even somewhat decent and can actually read your opponent even just a ltle (i.e. use it after he evades, block window ends, etc.). Also, don’t misregard the trait Improvisation. It has a chance of of resetting the CD’s on all utilities of a certain type, in the case where the fight may turn really nasty with back-to-back refuges and blinding powder-black powder-combos.

I may have overdone it with the original description, but the argument still stands. P/D (+x/P) is an extremely forgiving and easy set, but luckily only useful for WvW Roaming and nothing else.

p/d is good against bad or unexperienced players.

if someone complains about 5 stacks of bleeding from SR (60sec CD), which can be easely evaded, then I suggest that he is one of them.

or if he complains about improvisation trait which is not within any viable p/d condi meta. or about d/p in a p/d condi build (can’t even understand this part. 5 stacks of bleeding every 18 sec? OP, ofc).

Ritt.3069:

True, if it wasn’t for the fact that they can spam Sneak Attack back-to-back safely 5 times in a row from Refuge until it finally hits. With S/D acrobatics set, I can maintaina high time of evade, but most of the classes have no counterplay against it, they just have to take the hit.

It really doesn’t hit that hard, certainly not hard enough to kill you and one hitting you isn’t even going to have a decisive influence.

While those utilities are on a ‘long’ cooldown, there’s a few things you must first consider. First of all, you have Refuge, where you can spam Sneak Attack with zero risk until it hits.

So can you, you were running S/D so you have C&D and likely SR, with a very dangerous daze from stealth at that.

Secondly, if you run P/P or D/P as second set, you only need Black Powder + Blinding Powder (+leap) for possible 8-12s of stealth again.

If … if. P/P doesn’t have any stealth, it can generate the field but it doesn’t have any leaps. D/P is a very odd secondary set for a condition P/D as these typically hit like a wet noodle with a power based skill. And then there is the cooldown on the weapon swap and the fact that BP+HS would drain their initiative, not only depriving them of C&D but also costing a lot more. A P/P main might try to do this, combined with D/P and stealth utilities to generate stealth for Sneak Attack + Unload. A power based P/D+D/x might use the dagger burst to finish an opponent, but a condition P/D?

The long cooldowns suddenly don’t feel as long, when you can maintain high durations of stealth so easily.

P/D has no use for maintaining long stealth, it’s primary damage is coming from Sneak Attack and it’s output is low enough for it to need it used a lot. Infrequent and long duration stealth does not work with this weaponset.

Most P/D thieves also run HiS, granting them yet another way of safely stealthing. P/D is mostly ran in WvW, where you can just nail your CnD’s off critters, in the best case, you don’t even need to make direct contact with your actual opponent.

Well, HiS is interruptible and has a long cooldown, so it’s not ‘safe’. The availability of critters depend on where you are fighting, which is part of your choice of where you fight him. And, as S/D you can use the same critters to C&D on.

Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet also make it extremely easy nailing those CnD’s,

Same thing, you have those on S/D – everything you’re complaining about was just as usable on your weaponset.

There is, btw, a limit on the amount of utility skills you can bring, you’ve used them by now, Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder, Infiltrator’s Signet. No stunbreaker, no speed buff, no condition removal …

Also, don’t misregard the trait Improvisation.

On a P/D?? What are you suggesting, 4/0/6/0/4? That looks odd, not sure that could work well.

I may have overdone it with the original description, but the argument still stands.

No, it doesn’t. Exaggeration voids your argument. You’re amongst thieves, there’s no need for this kind of hyperbole, it’s painfully obvious all it achieves is hide what you really have to say.

P/D (+x/P) is an extremely forgiving and easy set, but luckily only useful for WvW Roaming and nothing else.

Yes it is, it typically is used with a very defensive build. It has no burst and it needs the sustain to exhaust the opponents, surviving long enough so eventually the opponent has everything on cooldown. You could possibly build a more defensive x/D, or D/P, and have similar sustain, I suppose, and some people use a more bursty (and fragile) setup with P/D. But, Sneak Attack has the advantage of being a ranged attack which gives it more options for positioning then dagger and sword mainhand. It pays for this with a lower damage.

Ritt.3069:

frans.8092:

Ritt.3069:

It’s not often that I struggle on my 1v1’s, but there have been several cases in WvW now where I have completely outplayed these condi cheesers, yet still had a hard time beating them. I had nailed my bursts on them, dodget their CnD’s, hardly getting a scratch on myself, completely outmatching the said Thieves. Yet why did I have troubles? What made the fights hard were the easy access to stealth and thus to sneak attack via utilities, especially so with Shadow Refuge. I dodged 5-6 Sneak Attack bursts in a row, but had the final burst nail me with condis. For the PD, it was a 0 risk situation, where he could just spam his Sneak Attack from the distance over and over again. At least the dagger thieves have to come up close, risking themselves at the same time for the burst.

That doesn’t make sense, you dodged their C&D’s yet they had plenty access to stealth? Usually only one or two utilities provide stealth, on long cooldowns. Then you dodged their Sneak Attacks, 5 of them(?), not taking a scratch, but you got nailed by their last one? I don’t think so.

True, if it wasn’t for the fact that they can spam Sneak Attack back-to-back safely 5 times in a row from Refuge until it finally hits. With S/D acrobatics set, I can maintaina high time of evade, but most of the classes have no counterplay against it, they just have to take the hit. You could argue that I could just shadow step out of combat for the while, but what’s really the point of me resetting combat when I’m on the offensive?

While those utilities are on a ‘long’ cooldown, there’s a few things you must first consider. First of all, you have Refuge, where you can spam Sneak Attack with zero risk until it hits. Secondly, if you run P/P or D/P as second set, you only need Black Powder + Blinding Powder (+leap) for possible 8-12s of stealth again. The long cooldowns suddenly don’t feel as long, when you can maintain high durations of stealth so easily. Most P/D thieves also run HiS, granting them yet another way of safely stealthing. P/D is mostly ran in WvW, where you can just nail your CnD’s off critters, in the best case, you don’t even need to make direct contact with your actual opponent. Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet also make it extremely easy nailing those CnD’s, if you’re even somewhat decent and can actually read your opponent even just a ltle (i.e. use it after he evades, block window ends, etc.). Also, don’t misregard the trait Improvisation. It has a chance of of resetting the CD’s on all utilities of a certain type, in the case where the fight may turn really nasty with back-to-back refuges and blinding powder-black powder-combos.

I may have overdone it with the original description, but the argument still stands. P/D (+x/P) is an extremely forgiving and easy set, but luckily only useful for WvW Roaming and nothing else.

People rarely fully dodge my sneak attack. Dodge is .75 seconds of evade while sneak attack is a 1 second channel. Often people will dodge most of the channel but 1 or 2 ticks will still get through and reveal me. I highly doubt you are fully dodging 5 sneak attacks back to back.

P/P doesn’t give you any more access to stealth and wouldn’t help as an off set. D/P would be a waste to swap to just to get easy stealth for a potential sneak attack 18 seconds later while in combat. Don’t even bring up Improvisation, no one uses that. Do they give up Shadow Rejuvenation or confusion on steal for that?

Also, if we’re bringing up NPCs, use a nearby NPC as a body block when they go into stealth or kill nearby critters before they get to them.

I think you definitely overdid it in the original description.

Owell, more than a rant against simply P/D, I simply detest all the stealth builds in general. Myself I run trickery, so CnD’ng is a simple waste of Initiative most of the time tbh.

But kudos to you for solid arguments. I will look at my own gameplay and ways to counter that particular Pistol Dagger style of play better. I still, however, consider it a training wheels type of a style to play.

dp SA still counters pd.

vincecontix.1264:

dp SA still counters pd.

I’ve found that running a power P/D build does better against D/P. It’s still at a disadvantage, but more often than not, if the D/P is somewhat glassy, you can push them off. You’ll likely never catch them if they back off, but you don’t suffer as much as a condi P/D build would.

It also kind of surprises them a bit sometimes. People expect a condi build.

vincecontix.1264:

dp SA still counters pd.

Many builds can counter p/d, you just need to stop the thief from resealthing. It’s the same tactic for any build really. You just need to stop the thief from stealthing by having well timed CCs and AOE’s.

1 hour of roaming 15 enemies, 12 were p/d condi theifs running 6 points in shadowarts 6 points in trickery 2 points in the first line. The rest were Prismatic understanding mesmers condi mesmers…. well then i think i’m done roaming for long time. Even if you beat someone running these builds its not even funny cause of how cheese it is, just frustrated trying to play wack a mole with these guys and they are everywhere!!!