Guild Wars 2

The other thread for this is focused on power builds and I wanted to have the opportunity to create a companion thread focused on the ability of condition builds to deal out damage. This is especially important because of the large number of threads that have claimed that condition damage is much too powerful. This thread is to reveal the verifiable differences between power and condition thieves.

I’ve done some testing and intend to do a lot more. I will update this post later with some detail of the variations that I used build-wise.

If others would like to contribute, please post the following information:

DPS #:
Weapon: [D/D, D/P, P/P, P/D, S/P, S/D, SB]
Testing condition: [Solo, group]
Intended Use: [PvE, WvW]
Build link/description:
Further plans for testing:

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DPS #: ~3500
Weapons: P/D
Testing condition: Solo
Intended Use: WvW
Build description: Trickery/Shadow Arts/Daredevil, using venoms. The damage this build can deal out can go up significantly in group settings with venom share.
Further testing: I intend to test DPS without using the venoms. This should give me an simple estimate of the difference in DPS overall and give me a number with which to easily estimate the “burst DPS” during the initial application of damage.

EDIT

Solo, unbuffed, DPS range comparison list (range, defensive to offensive)

DPS ,D/D, Power
_ DPS ,D/D, Hybrid
_ DPS ,D/D, Condi

DPS ,D/P, Power
_ DPS ,D/P, Hybrid
_ DPS, D/P, Condi

DPS, P/D, Power
_ DPS, P/D, Hybrid
~3500–5000 DPS, P/D, Condi

DPS, S/D, Power
_ DPS, S/D, Hybrid
_ DPS, S/D, Condi

DPS, S/P, Power
_ DPS, S/P, Hybrid
_ DPS, S/P, Condi

DPS, Staff, Power
_ DPS, Staff, Hybrid
_ DPS, Staff, Condi

DPS, SB, Power
_ DPS, SB, Hybrid
_ DPS, SB, Condi

DPS: ~31k (theorectical max, no where near real game play)

Weapons: D/D

Testing condition: Solo but did math do account for venomshare inside the raid test arena. Used all boons and all profession buffs in order to compare against other classes. Again, this is not 100% realistic but is a good way to compare classes. For example engi is regarded as the “meta” condi class but this thief build can definitely keep up or even pass it depending on the engi’s rotation

Build description: SA/DA/DD

See video below for further details and for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kTft63S6pw

I like how death blossom isn’t even worth using

Have you guys noticed any procs for leeching venoms while testing?
I wanted to find out whether ot not it can be exploited in a broken way like rev but, according to my combat log, neither the heal nor the damage part happened.
The stacks get consumed, and the condi gets applied, but no LV proc on enemy or in log.

DB is actually a DPS gain if there is a fire/poison field under you and if you don’t have quickness. However in this particular video I always had quickness and I didn’t test with others in the group so I didn’t have combo fields.

I will try again while staggering the venoms to see how the leeching applies.

Very interesting, thanks for running these tests. I find it encouraging that the venomshare build with shared venoms is so close to power staff dps.

However…

This is running with 100% alacrity, which is very unrealistic. I’d be interested to see what the dps is without alacrity to get an idea of how much that is contributing to the results.

Still, it does seem like this may be a viable build for groups that want more contribution to break bars. I’m wondering if the changes to Skelk Venom would make that skill worth using as well…

skelk venom is now roughly 9000+2.2 heal untraited. I’d most definitely use it when running venomshare. That’s 6450+2.5 heal for allies. and a little extra damage (11k), making it not a dps loss to cast

Yes these are vacuum tests, but so were the tests for every other class. In real fights I’ve seen well above 20k (janx :P).

Every class scales with boons a little differently. Staff thief is entirely based on quickness where this build shines more with alacrity, but so does ele, engi, etc.

The point of the investigation to me was to prove that condi thief can be a viable option. I’ve run in on vale guardian and have seen 25k+ for the first phase with double venoms. Only having 2-3 people on the red guardian drops the DPS a bit, but basalisk venom can easily solo break vale guard which keeps your revs on sword. It’s a balancing act but condi thief could definitely be part of that discussion.

One place where the build could actually do more damage is if you play with classes that drop poison or fire fields.

I’ll give it a shot with skelk venom.

Awesome, thanks. I’m at work or else I’d try to do a test as well. I did some napkin math on the thread in the dungeons section and guessed about 25k would be your result, but it was really rough, so I could be off by a decent bit.

Also, considering that this was a moving target, I’d assume the actual DPS would be much lower in realistic situations since there’s so many fights with bosses that move less than this golem or don’t move at all.

But you can make the same argument for other classes while moving. For example, moving bosses for engineer will drop their DPS because they move out of fire fields.

ButterPeanut.9746:

But you can make the same argument for other classes while moving. For example, moving bosses for engineer will drop their DPS because they move out of fire fields.

Very true, but if you’re comparing condi thief to power thief, then you won’t see that same dps loss for power.

Dahkeus.8243:

ButterPeanut.9746:

But you can make the same argument for other classes while moving. For example, moving bosses for engineer will drop their DPS because they move out of fire fields.

Very true, but if you’re comparing condi thief to power thief, then you won’t see that same dps loss for power.

That is true. Staff thief is pretty consistent with its DPS if you have permanent quickness. I personally didn’t want to make a berserker ascended set because I felt the condi set could give me more bang for my buck if I wanted to play engi or ranger.

I wasn’t able to get skelk venom to work in the arena. I checked combat log and couldn’t see any damage being done by the lifesteal.

Nice to know its not just me. So most lifesteal effects are either not working or working too well? Gj ^^

ButterPeanut.9746:

I wasn’t able to get skelk venom to work in the arena. I checked combat log and couldn’t see any damage being done by the lifesteal.

Yea, lifesteal didn’t show up in the combat logs before the patch either, so it doesn’t surprise me. Somehow I doubt it’s showing up in the DPS calculations either. =/

ButterPeanut.9746:

DPS: ~31k (theorectical max, no where near real game play)

Weapons: D/D

Testing condition: Solo but did math do account for venomshare inside the raid test arena. Used all boons and all profession buffs in order to compare against other classes. Again, this is not 100% realistic but is a good way to compare classes. For example engi is regarded as the “meta” condi class but this thief build can definitely keep up or even pass it depending on the engi’s rotation

Build description: SA/DA/DD

See video below for further details and for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kTft63S6pw

Wouldn’t the thief count as one of the 5 people obtaining the venom. Meaning you should add *4 as venomshare multiplier? Since you already have your own venom in the dps calculation?

Hanza.6872:

ButterPeanut.9746:

DPS: ~31k (theorectical max, no where near real game play)

Weapons: D/D

Testing condition: Solo but did math do account for venomshare inside the raid test arena. Used all boons and all profession buffs in order to compare against other classes. Again, this is not 100% realistic but is a good way to compare classes. For example engi is regarded as the “meta” condi class but this thief build can definitely keep up or even pass it depending on the engi’s rotation

Build description: SA/DA/DD

See video below for further details and for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kTft63S6pw

Wouldn’t the thief count as one of the 5 people obtaining the venom. Meaning you should add *4 as venomshare multiplier? Since you already have your own venom in the dps calculation?

The thief does count and multiplying by 5 is the same as adding times 4

Hanza.6872:

Wouldn’t the thief count as one of the 5 people obtaining the venom. Meaning you should add *4 as venomshare multiplier? Since you already have your own venom in the dps calculation?

it’s being added to the no venoms damage

I’m curious what the baseline DPS (un-enhanced, solo) is for each of the weapon sets. I feel that we need to see a comparison between a pure power build, a hybrid build, and a pure condi build for each weapon-set to fairly judge it’s effectiveness.

Obviously, venoms are going to enhance the damage of condition builds quite a bit, hybrid more so, with power builds not really benefiting. Hybrids and powers alternatively have some utilities that can synergize and add damage without relying on venoms.

I’m going to start a list style chart in OP detailing just the basics — weapons, DPS, and build type — to start documenting these variations.

Stop duck and reroll

Amaranthe.3578:

Stop duck and reroll

This Rev in Thiefs clothing is trying really hard to recruit for his class.