Guild Wars 2

I played a mesmer to lvl 80 and just made a human thief. I’be seen many builds and i like the idea of a condition bleed thief with DB. I’m just wondering if this is good for leveling or is a power/precision thief better?. And if this build is good for leveling, is it also good at low lvl?

For PvE, imo condition is better overall. It’s much more survivable and some builds have insane healing (signet of malice + caldrops & death blossom).

Doomdesire.9365:

For PvE, imo condition is better overall. It’s much more survivable and some builds have insane healing (signet of malice + caldrops & death blossom).

Ok, thanks. I’ll try the condition build then.

I played all the way to 80 using the condition D/D build and enjoyed every minute of it.

I’m still using it for farming crafting mats, exploration and such.

Yup, the playstyle is awesome indeed. Some more tips:

-Plink your enemies with shortbow first, then round them all up in the caltrops
-swap to daggers with sigil of geomancy (3 stacks of bleed instant) when starting combat
- you can shadowstep while you are “casting” caltrops, to minimize incoming damage
-alternate dodges right through enemies (with caltrops on dodge traited) and death blossoms to get more bleeds
-dodge caltrops are smaller and don’t last as long as normal ones, but they both stack

You can get anywhere from 15-20 bleeds by this, depending on condition duration, and even more at 80 if everything goes well. Pizza consumables help here, because longer lasting stacks of bleeds means they will pile up higher. If you ever decide to stack condition duration, make sure to increase them to the next second, because bleeds only tick each full second. (i.e. 6.9 seconds of bleed does the same damage as 6s)

I don’t like cannon style feeds but I’ve considered it lately. I’ve considered going bleed build with p/p (and shortbow as secondary for multi-targets) using rampager armor and earth sigils on both pistols.

auto attack from stealth with pistol already stacks decent bleed, followed up with an unload with high crit chance is a lot more bleed stacks. Using food that gives 66% chance to lifesteal on crit and bonus precision helps offset the glass factor quite a bit too.

Xenth.2408:

I don’t like cannon style feeds but I’ve considered it lately. I’ve considered going bleed build with p/p (and shortbow as secondary for multi-targets) using rampager armor and earth sigils on both pistols.

auto attack from stealth with pistol already stacks decent bleed, followed up with an unload with high crit chance is a lot more bleed stacks. Using food that gives 66% chance to lifesteal on crit and bonus precision helps offset the glass factor quite a bit too.

Just one problem cowboy Unload does not stack bleeds. P/P is nota a viable condition weapon choise. P/D and D/D is.

Condition damage thieves will generally have better survivability due to not being required to put points in Deadly Arts/Critical Stikes, direct damage thieves will generally have better damage due to power/precision/crit damage scaling far better than condition damage.

Overall though it boils down to your playstyle. Damage is useless if you can’t stay alive, but if you can’t deal any damage you are in for a long, tedious trip to 80. D/D con damage and S/P direct damage are both great leveling choices.

Karolis.4261:

P/P is nota a viable condition weapon choise. P/D and D/D is.

And the oft-overlooked SB, especially with Might synergy and Elemental Powders.

I’ve been power/crit last 40 levels including through dungeon runs and love it. The dps is awesome. I love the sound of that hard d/d hit, chop chop, slam! There’s already enough people stacking conds in dungeons anyways. Normal mobs are a joke.

Currently 20/30/10/0/10 with Infusion of Shadow and Thrill of Crime, keeps my initiative up. Walk up CnD>BS, spam a few DB, steal to regain initiative, CnD again. Hits like a truck. Don’t need much tough or vit when you can stealth away from everything. Plenty of condition removal between heal and shadowstep.

One thing I will say, is that I get more badges in WvW with straight damage builds over condition builds. I think this is mostly due to the bleed limit stacking, and some enemies dying before your bleeds really register any damage.

Condition is much more survivable, but in my experience less rewarding in the form of badges (unless you find lots of 1v1s).

Karolis.4261:

Xenth.2408:

I don’t like cannon style feeds but I’ve considered it lately. I’ve considered going bleed build with p/p (and shortbow as secondary for multi-targets) using rampager armor and earth sigils on both pistols.

auto attack from stealth with pistol already stacks decent bleed, followed up with an unload with high crit chance is a lot more bleed stacks. Using food that gives 66% chance to lifesteal on crit and bonus precision helps offset the glass factor quite a bit too.

Just one problem cowboy Unload does not stack bleeds. P/P is nota a viable condition weapon choise. P/D and D/D is.

Hence the earth sigils. Unload stacks plenty of bleed if you have a high crit chance while using earth sigils on both pistols. Attack from stealth = 5 stacks, followed up by two unloads with earth sigils = a lot more in a very short period of time. At least I imagine so. Like I said, I was considering it. I haven’t tried it out yet.

Edit;
Superior Sigil of Earth = 60% on critical: inflict bleeding (5 seconds). So say I have 70% crit chance. From two unloads, I’ll crit an average of 11.2 times. 60% of that is 6.72. Plus the 5 from the original attack from stealth would avearge … only 11 stacks of short duration bleed. Okay maybe not the greatest bleed option. By the time the 2nd unload finishes the first stacks of bleed from initial attack will be about worn off.

Xenth.2408:

Karolis.4261:

Xenth.2408:

I don’t like cannon style feeds but I’ve considered it lately. I’ve considered going bleed build with p/p (and shortbow as secondary for multi-targets) using rampager armor and earth sigils on both pistols.

auto attack from stealth with pistol already stacks decent bleed, followed up with an unload with high crit chance is a lot more bleed stacks. Using food that gives 66% chance to lifesteal on crit and bonus precision helps offset the glass factor quite a bit too.

Just one problem cowboy Unload does not stack bleeds. P/P is nota a viable condition weapon choise. P/D and D/D is.

Hence the earth sigils. Unload stacks plenty of bleed if you have a high crit chance while using earth sigils on both pistols. Attack from stealth = 5 stacks, followed up by two unloads with earth sigils = a lot more in a very short period of time. At least I imagine so. Like I said, I was considering it. I haven’t tried it out yet.

Edit;
Superior Sigil of Earth = 60% on critical: inflict bleeding (5 seconds). So say I have 70% crit chance. From two unloads, I’ll crit an average of 11.2 times. 60% of that is 6.72. Plus the 5 from the original attack from stealth would avearge … only 11 stacks of short duration bleed. Okay maybe not the greatest bleed option. By the time the 2nd unload finishes the first stacks of bleed from initial attack will be about worn off.

…except Superior Sigil of Earth has a cooldown, so you’ll be getting one bleed per Unload at the very most. The wiki says 2 seconds, but I’ve heard it is actually 5, haven’t played with it myself lately. Unload just doesn’t really play nice with condition damage.

Hands down Condition thief for PvE. it works wonders when you reach later levels in Orr where there are a lot of mobs that pwn you day and night.

either way is both viable playstyles.

i lvled at P/P power / prec with SB for aoe. had a fantastic time lvling (this was in headstart when personal storys etc was buggy ) and do silly ammounts of dmg with unload as a zerker build.

dont forget if there is a condi necro or other condi class u will be fighting for the bleed stacks as it is 25 max and a necro overides a thief condi very fast. so do grenade engineers.

and yes earth sigil has an internal cd and has very bad synergy with unload. its due to pistol problems.

as a P/P power / prec thief i understand the issue with pistol. the main hand #1 and #2 are a little confused in what they want to be.
it wants to be condi but has short bleeds and it wants to be a vuln stacker with high cost, combine this with pistol offhand it that wants to be direct dmg / utility (the offhand is very very nice to have and should not be changed only imporoved like black powder being 4 ini cost).
so if u want pistol condi builds going P/D is a very good way as u then have access to stealth for bleed stacking, but then if thats the case u are better of going D/D for condi stacking as u will have to be melee range for P/D condi stacking anyway.

shame really as Pistols can have alot of potential if fixed, like for example if u use P/P it becomes a direct dmg set or if u use P/D it becomes condi focused, and maybe make body shot become a bleed stacker when using P/D and when using P/P bodyshot becomes a 900 snare which gives P/P an advantage in all aspects.

anyway im just rambleing on TL:DR- both condi and power/prec is viable it just depends on playstyles.

It makes me sad to see so many thieves recommending condition specs for dungeons.

If you dont want to deal much damage, and want to be lazy when it comes to dodging/positioning, then sure, run a condition build.

The bottem line is, thieves are brought for damage, period. You can try to play support, but guardian/ele/warrior support will be 10x better, every time. That means your best contribution to your dungeon team will be raw damage(and the occasional stealth rez, which any spec can do).

Not only does direct/crit damage spec out dps condition by a metric ton, but if there happens to be any other condition specs in the group, then your dps drops to abysmal levels, because the bulk of your condition damage will be negated by the 25 bleed cap, the 1 poison cap.

So here is your answer: You can run condition spec as long as there are some other strong dps in the group, your runs wont necessarily be slow because of you. But if you want to spec efficiently for dungeons, direct/crit damage is the way to go. P/P for ranged single target and bosses, shortbow for everything AE, and sword/P for trash is a solid setup.

I should add that condition specs are great for solo pve/exploring and farming, probably better than crit specs.

And I dont mean to offend anyone who prefers condition specs for dungeons. Everyone has their own ‘playstyle’.

But the fact is, thieves are brought for damage 90% of the time, and direct/crit damage builds out dps condition builds by a lot.

Out dps condition builds by a lot? 1 death blossom ~ 6k AoE dmg, ignoring armor. And in a structured team you are the only one with bleed. 25 stacks just for you.

Molch.2078:

Out dps condition builds by a lot? 1 death blossom ~ 6k AoE dmg, ignoring armor. And in a structured team you are the only one with bleed. 25 stacks just for you.

Part of the problem is that conditions don’t play nice with group synergy. Even if you’ve got your group all coordinated so that you won’t ever have bleed stack problems someone using heavy bleed damage isn’t going to get the full value of anyone else stacking weakness. Fury also does much less for condition-based damage than it does for power-based damage. GW2 simply lacks boons and conditions that effectively boost condition-based damage.

But this is one of those “way down on the list” things for improving group effectiveness. In an ideal world, condition-based damage isn’t on par with power-based damage, but the difference in the hands of an effective group is much smaller than the several dozen other things you’d optimize first. Just like, technically, “everyone should dodge everything and use full berserker gear” is good advice, but not realistic for the majority of groups that simply don’t optimize to that degree.

I got the first point. Vulnerability isn’t affected by conditiondmg, thats true. But might is, and with earthsigill and opportunist-trait, furry is, too. Leapfinnisher + firefield equals fire aura → burn. Ofc direct dmg is better under that aspect, but conditions ain’t that bad.

Your second point starts with “conditiondamage is smaller than direct damage”. Proof? I’d like to see the math behind this statement. Srsly I’d love to see it, because im a big fan of direct dmg myself.

Molch.2078:

I got the first point. Vulnerability isn’t affected by conditiondmg, thats true. But might is, and with earthsigill and opportunist-trait, furry is, too. Leapfinnisher + firefield equals fire aura -> burn. Ofc direct dmg is better under that aspect, but conditions ain’t that bad.

Your second point starts with “conditiondamage is smaller than direct damage”. Proof? I’d like to see the math behind this statement. Srsly I’d love to see it, because im a big fan of direct dmg myself.

I specifically didn’t mention Might because it actually scales well with condition damage. You aren’t being honest with yourself in regards to earth sigil and Opportunist + Fury, though. If you’re running earth sigil and Opportunist you aren’t using a conditon damage build, at best you’re running a hybridized build. Even if you are using a proc sigil you’d get far more mileage out of Strength than Earth with a hybridized build. Stealth utilities + P/P can work this way, for instance, but is an awkward setup that sacrifices a lot of utility for mediocre hybridization.

Condition damage isn’t as effective as power based damage because, as noted above, even in a coordinated situation (no bleed overlap) you’re severely limiting group options by choosing a damage type that doesn’t play nice. In a purely non-group sense, condition damage loses out by scaling off of a single stat instead of three, as power-based damage does. Pound-for-pound, condition damage stacks up well against power alone, but power when combined with critical chance and damage not only provides better damage, but better access to procs. You can push critical chance with condition damage, but since the resulting damage modifier will affect far less of your damage you’re incurring a very heavy opportunity cost.

But, again, if one guy in your group is being lazy and/or running a terrible build, it more than erases any gains you’d make with power. Power beats condition damage in a perfect world scenario, but in reality condition damage is good enough for all scenarios but the most intense of min/maxing. The same goes for most on-paper optimization, how well you play and how experienced with the content you are is a lot more relevant to group effectiveness.

Molch.2078:

Out dps condition builds by a lot? 1 death blossom ~ 6k AoE dmg, ignoring armor. And in a structured team you are the only one with bleed. 25 stacks just for you.

to get that much damage from 1 DB you would have to have the bleeds last over 15 seconds so its actually only around 400-500 dps

everyone who has played both specs knows conditions specs take alot longer to kill things but you get alot more suvivability … thats the trade off.. trying to argue condition specs do similar dps to direct damage is madness.

i actually run a condition spec and love it.. but the dps potential is alot lower than crit/pwr builds

If you’re going to WvW, be forewarned that there are some enemies that a condition thief just can’t kill. Guardians and elementalists come to mind. They have too much regen/condition removal and without a burst attack, you won’t be able to do much damage.