Guild Wars 2

Yesterday one could hear during Sin stream that dp thief is the only option in high lvl pvp. It seems that the subject values stealth a lot, so staff is not an option. Let me tell you, dp is not the only option.

First of all u can equip other weapons if u have them in your inventory.

Secondly, staff is very strong weapon, possibly the best option when mastered. It does not give stealth in normal build, nor interrupts (no “pulmonary impact dmg”), however it gives another options.

Staff thief is good duelist and teamfighter: insane Aoe, evade frames, leap finisher and access to bandit defense. All of that can wipe enemy team within seconds. Here is extra option for staff, that dp does not have. Staff can take part in teamfights. There is one exellent strat vs dp thief, masterfully performed by plebseth team in finals. Team leaves all points decapped and focuses only on teamfights, rendering thief useless. Dp can not decap or +1 so all it can do is afk.

Staff can duel more enemies. Not only power rev, but also every other class (maybe exept dh).Dp is not the one and only option for high lvl pvp. Staff can teamfight. Staff is life, staff is love, but dont forget about pp!

No, it’s not. Vault is where you get your insane AoE yet it’s one of the most telegraphed skills in the game. Fortunately it has evade for 2/3 of the cast time, but the non-evade frames are easy to memorize and shut down. That’s not a problem in non-tournament pugs, but you’re specifically talking about high-level pvp, you might get the jump (pun intended) on some skilled players in the very first skirmish, but after that you’ll get focused and interrupted very fast.

Staff lacks stealth, and so it lacks the escapability that D/P offers. You are correct that Staff allows dueling, but so does condi mes or trap DH. Thieves are strong not because of their DPS or ability to hold their own, but because of their mobility, speed, and unpredictability. Staff has less mobility, less speed, and is highly predictable. Everything a thief should avoid if they want to beat well-organized and prepared players.

the only thing staff is good for is cleaving bunches of lower skilled opponents its a fun option for wvw, but that sums up all the staff advantages over d/p

also staff thief is pretty much a GS/axe+shield warrior downgrade being harder to play and having worse stats/utilities while having similar functions

however even a complete scrub is dangerous with d/p as long as he tries to do unpredictable p4 PI procs let alone all the infinite stealth-skitten that allows him to reset any fight until his opponent runs out of cds or makes a mistake

on top of that d/p thief excels at quickly shutting down outnumbered enemies or those who simply arent prepared to fight him, capitalizing on core strengths of thief while staff thief instead tries to compensate thief’s core weaknesses and while it can work it doesnt compensate sufficiently, hence the above mentioned gs/axe warrior comparison

Staff is a good dueling weapon (as it does not need to depend on vault in 1v1 but can use vault to punish with relative ease) and a good cleaving weapon (vault/Weaken/Dust Strike) in group fights where the thief might not be as closely-focused, but it doesn’t shine particularly excellently in every/any given encounter like D/P can. It can be countered – particularly via interrupt effects – and can be heavily countered depending on what it’s up against.

D/P on the other hand, never really suffers in a matchup. It’s just universally about as good as the thief can get for every encounter.

The problem is that most people think that the only skill on staff is Vault. People don’t take the time to learn it properly due to vault being the “big” skill. One really has to learn how to use each of the skills on staff efficiently to be effective with it. Every time I see a thief doing nothing but pressing 5 as soon as they hit 5 initiative I cringe.

I do agree with the claim that staff has the most potential when mastered, at least in duels. I haven’t played much pvp at all recently, but from my experience throughout the seasons staff is quite successful in pvp as well.

TL;DR: nobody knows how to play staff and that’s why it sucks

Why does his opinion of what works against top tier players bother you, Urejt?

If you actually listen to what I say I’m talking about competitive play aka the highest level ESL/WTS etc. In ranked Q you can play whatever the F you want and you can have it viable. I suggest you check ToL EU finals against vermillion the 2nd place in worlds who lost to us as a mix team with D/P thief. Also the team that you also quote on “they just leave him(the thief) and teamfight” got absolutely demolished by us

The reason staff is not viable in the highest level is that it has no role or place in the game, your teamfight is not worth offering any of the other bruiser classes over it, it’s not a better +1 than a D/P thief and it’s not a better 1v1er than plenty of other classes.

Why is it not a good +1 you ask? Simple, you run bound(makes you slow way too slow) and you have no stealth on demand it makes enemy counter rotations/knowing where you move all the time and that means you cannot do anything.

This is my own analysis over it, I’m not saying what I say is 100% accurate you can feel free to debate it all you want.

Feel free to watch ToL4: https://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/99502738?t=2h16m15s

bluri.2653:

Why is it not a good +1 you ask? Simple, you run bound(makes you slow way too slow) and you have no stealth on demand it makes enemy counter rotations/knowing where you move all the time and that means you cannot do anything.

But staff can work with dash instead of bound. Actually i find superior to bound. Staff might not be better +1 because it lacks stealth, but i suspect pros know where enemy thief is thx to communication or simple map awarness. Also staff has much better mobility thx to staff trait which is like super vigor giving much more dodges. At least on paper.

Anyway i hope ppl explore staff a little bit more.

Urejt.5648:

bluri.2653:

Why is it not a good +1 you ask? Simple, you run bound(makes you slow way too slow) and you have no stealth on demand it makes enemy counter rotations/knowing where you move all the time and that means you cannot do anything.

But staff can work with dash instead of bound. Actually i find superior to bound. Staff might not be better +1 because it lacks stealth, but i suspect pros know where enemy thief is thx to communication or simple map awarness. Also staff has much better mobility thx to staff trait which is like super vigor giving much more dodges. At least on paper.

Anyway i hope ppl explore staff a little bit more.

People can explore staff all they want, it has no place in competitive matches aka ESL/WTS because it simply does not have the tools as D/P has, simple.

You swapping to dash instead of bound with staff makes no difference whatsoever, the role of staff just has nothing to offer at the highest levels no matter how you look at it.
I’d even say that the 1v1 capabilities of staff without bound decreases heavily so you lose that.

The reason D/P is also stronger to +1 with is because of interrupts and the surprise factor which you do not have on staff so going dash to match D/P thief on mobility will also not matter one bit

Also regarding the “oh but the enemy team has voicecoms so they should still know where the thief is” The thing is that you fail to understand is that you can juke with D/P just by stealthing up might even make them start rotating or play safe in the 1v1 at the side, even if the D/P thief doesn’t move you have already caused them to react to something that no other wepset of thief can do.

And better mobility with staff? Dash with shortbow#5 and dash with staff#5 is such a tiny difference in mobility it has no impact whatsoever – the bigger difference is however enemies knowing where the staff thief is compared to the D/P one because of stealth which we already explained. Also you would never pick staff mastery over EA as staff because the ONLY reason you even go staff is cus u can 1v1 condi mes but only with EA

To be honest staff in teamfights against good teams gets too easily countered by the abundance of CC’s as well (shocking auras, surging runes yeah you name it) so the actual impact you have with staff there is very little – I can agree on one thing that the cleave is cool and all but after the patch with invuln frame gone and no daze on gyros dagger cleave is actually fine if you are careful and know the limits.

This is a joke, right?

Staff is like Shaq and D/P is like Jordan. Your team needs Jordan.

I play s/d in WvW because WvW allows a few other builds to be passable and I like the way my set feels but watch any d/p match video from thief perspective so you can watch the fight and skill bar at same time. I’d have to be honest with myself about what the map and my team requires if it’s a small enough fight where I need to matter, even with little things you might not consider like being able to pie a corner in stealth real quick. I don’t play competitively on this game but even if you have on other games the basic mechanics still mostly apply and stealth, blink, and interrupt alone on one skill bar already makes too much sense considering the compositions you’ll see.

There have been some matchups in WvW where I’d take a staff build over d/p though but then it kind of depends one which squads I’m floating around.

Min, Reckless, Sind, Vallun, Bruno, myself and many other of us all play D/P over staff,

like the posts before staff is a telegraph, does not offer the team support of stealth and blast fields that d/p does nor the clean spike from backstab (if used right on a low target thats an ista down/kill for your team) by going staff/ bw you give up the stealth fields for your team, the mobility from shadowshot, you give up the interrupts from headshot, the burst from heartseeker+auto chain.

Staff is yes great for teamfights and holding on nodes. However that said, that is not your job as thief, thiefs job is to use the mobility of its class to +1, decap and FINISH a fight QUICKLY. By holding a pocket in staff not doing the listed above you are not helping your team to its full potential.

Considering Sindrener is one of the few thieves playing at WTS level atm, I’d be hesitant to dismiss what he says about it. Yes, staff might work in ranked, but WTS and ranked are two totally different animals, and he’s one of the few people with experience of both.

Lastly, can people stop referring to viewpoints different to their own as “x’s syndrome” to imply disability or mental illness? It felt like a personal attack when it was done to Jana, and it feels no less personal now. If you disagree with said view that’s fine, no need to be a kitten about it. I’d like to think people are better than that.

Urejt.5648:

but i suspect pros know where enemy thief is thx to communication or simple map awarness.

There’s the problem. You suspect while sindrener knows from experience.

I don’t think it’s truly a matter of damage with D/P, but with the utility that it brings.
I wish D/P wasn’t that convient, so that we would have more valuable options, but this amazing interrupt, it’s hard to compete with this weapon set. Even with Staff.

I have to admit you made some valid point, especially the fact that you have greater chance of survival with Staff in outnumbered situation, but as a Thief that is not enough.~

So I will have to side with Sinderner’s Syndrome. He is a great player.

You guys should check out Min Scherzo. I was super skeptical but wow. Staff/ d/p with acro is nuts. Yes most of his vids are wvw but he was able to take down pro league dragon hunters in pvp with this build and has a guide video on how to do so. Dude is really good and his vids are good too.

General guide:
https://youtu.be/Hpo_yXO8dDU

DH guide:
https://youtu.be/mC8LkOMUchg

If you like roaming vids I think they are hilarious too.
https://youtu.be/eolAku4p9w8
https://youtu.be/KnIWY0THuNc

Dude’s on crack lel

amazing staff duels!

I’m known to be mean, so I’m saying it anyway: Sinderer has got a great timing, but all others that were better than him have already left. That’s not meant offensive, but lets not pretend that he’s the be all and end all. He’s right on this though, although he probably doesn’t know why.
And I’m with Kocoff: D/P is about the utility it brings, and you can run anything with D/P as a second – it’s still D/P and not whatever set you’ve also equipped.

Jana.6831:

I’m known to be mean, so I’m saying it anyway: Sinderer has got a great timing, but all others that were better than him have already left. That’s not meant offensive, but lets not pretend that he’s the be all and end all. He’s right on this though, although he probably doesn’t know why.
And I’m with Kocoff: D/P is about the utility it brings, and you can run anything with D/P as a second – it’s still D/P and not whatever set you’ve also equipped.

I couldn’t care any less if you think I’m good or bad because no matter how you put it I’m 1 out of 4 thieves that have competed in WTS and only one of them quit this game, so who are these other great players you mention? I’m curious

You seem to have this “I know it all” kind of attitude and no one else seems to understand anything, guess what? I already clearly stated why Staff is inferior to D/P in competitive play in my posts, if you read them again maybe that will clarify something for you.

Also I do hope you understand this discussion comes from me saying that D/P is the only viable option in competing (5v5 conquest team vs team), this has nothing to do with normal sPVP.

I think d/p has changed since when them people left as it dosnt rely so much on pi, before it was about back stab but now it’s interupting and keeping out range of certain skills (rev sword #2/3 as an example) stealth and mimd games were still there but PI seems to of over taken the weapon set and made it even more powerful. And that’s the power creep not just from pi, but from other hard hitting over tuned abiltys other classes have. You can do enough dmg at range intempting people now instead of risking going into melee.

On topic, I think staff is only good if you play acro and bunny hop all of the time, and quite frankly I feel that people are just rotating between dodge, #3, and dust strike but that’s all it can do, why use this for team fights when you could bring a dh trapper or something else wity high sustain. Staff thief is only really at dueling and I have had better success at it then s/d and d/p but that’s only in wvw or GH fights, probably wouldn’t bother using g it in spvp much

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I think d/p has changed since when them people left as it dosnt rely so much on pi, before it was about back stab but now it’s interupting and keeping out range of certain skills (rev sword #2/3 as an example) stealth and mimd games were still there but PI seems to of over taken the weapon set and made it even more powerful. And that’s the power creep not just from pi, but from other hard hitting over tuned abiltys other classes have. You can do enough dmg at range intempting people now instead of risking going into melee.

On topic, I think staff is only good if you play acro and bunny hop all of the time, and quite frankly I feel that people are just rotating between dodge, #3, and dust strike but that’s all it can do, why use this for team fights when you could bring a dh trapper or something else wity high sustain. Staff thief is only really at dueling and I have had better success at it then s/d and d/p but that’s only in wvw or GH fights, probably wouldn’t bother using g it in spvp much

These people you guys like to mention who are they or are they just some ghosts? Seems like not a single person knows who they are

Interrupts was a huge part even before HoT in conquest/5v5 – Interrupting warbanner could more or less win or lose a game if you failed to do so, or healing turret from engi in a +1

Jana.6831:

I’m known to be mean, so I’m saying it anyway: Sinderer has got a great timing, but all others that were better than him have already left. That’s not meant offensive, but lets not pretend that he’s the be all and end all. He’s right on this though, although he probably doesn’t know why.
And I’m with Kocoff: D/P is about the utility it brings, and you can run anything with D/P as a second – it’s still D/P and not whatever set you’ve also equipped.

Of course great thieves came and vanished again. Early in the days (Guild Wars 2 Invitational 2013) Caed and Lady Nag Nag Nag were top-thieves, first one still played/playing until today (not much though) and 2nd one played rev the last year. Then there were a lot of others which were considered good back then (Jumper for example, which left the game). Toker is considered to be top-thief for a long time. Watched Katsumi once on my alt-account like 2 years ago. Apparently still top, too.
For EU furthermore Chozen Sin, Sizer, Renna and Levin (he changed to rev sadly) come into my mind immediatly and I´m forgetting some for sure. Point is, thieves back then were great and thieves now are great. What matters is the different time. Changes to classes in regard of options, how to play them etc need players to adapt. Sizer for example still here and then tries S/D, which just isnt viable now. Maybe its viable in the future and he dominates again. No one can say cause a meta won´t come back again in the same way. There will always be a difference. D/P now isn´t the same it was 2014.
Sind was wvw-player for a long time and then came more into pvp. Would he been considered top thief in pvp back in 2013? No one knows.
You just can´t compare top thieves now and then, period.
D/P always had the utility, still S/D was once considered superior for certain reasons. Maybe the next elite-specc will make it hilariously OP. Or even D/D (buffing, changing, bringing OP stuff, whatever, we know anet isn´t reliable in that things).

If anything I hate about D/P its about that kitten Pistol. I just don´t like pistols/rifles in mmo´s. If D/D would be played exactly like D/P I would be happier, but whatever.

Sorry, I never said there was, was just replying to jana. And I didn’t mean there was no interupts back before hot, ofcorse key skills like you pointed out were a must to interupt, I meant that head ahot/pi is used a lot more.

Oh boy. Ppl say staff can not fulfill the role of dp. I highly disagree. It can do everything dp can (exept stelath) and so much more! Staff has even better mobility thx to much better endurance regeneration. It can +1, it can duel, it can teamfight. Obviusly staff is has much different skills so it must be different.

Urejt.5648:

Oh boy. Ppl say staff can not fulfill the role of dp. I highly disagree. It can do everything dp can (exept stelath) and so much more! Staff has even better mobility thx to much better endurance regeneration. It can +1, it can duel, it can teamfight. Obviusly staff is has much different skills so it must be different.

I explained in my posts why it can’t any of it, if you want to believe otherwise then that’s up to you, regardless no top thief will run staff in future competitions unless something changes (heavy dp nerf/buffs to staff)

ades.1386:

Min, Reckless, Sind, Vallun, Bruno, myself and many other of us all play D/P over staff,

like the posts before staff is a telegraph, does not offer the team support of stealth and blast fields that d/p does nor the clean spike from backstab (if used right on a low target thats an ista down/kill for your team) by going staff/ bw you give up the stealth fields for your team, the mobility from shadowshot, you give up the interrupts from headshot, the burst from heartseeker+auto chain.

Staff is yes great for teamfights and holding on nodes. However that said, that is not your job as thief, thiefs job is to use the mobility of its class to +1, decap and FINISH a fight QUICKLY. By holding a pocket in staff not doing the listed above you are not helping your team to its full potential.

Uhhhh wrong. Min and reckless prioritizes staff over d/p. They’re my guildies and we have been training reckless in the proper use of staff over what is stereotyped about staff which a lot of people have common misconceptions about. Reckless is a d/p convert to staff now. Staff is by far the most versatile weaponset bar none for thief since there’s so much you can do with it at high level gameplay.

People seem to think staff thief is a +1’er. Well here’s a hint. You’re wrong. It can fill a couple roles when played right.

Lettuce.2945:

ades.1386:

Min, Reckless, Sind, Vallun, Bruno, myself and many other of us all play D/P over staff,

like the posts before staff is a telegraph, does not offer the team support of stealth and blast fields that d/p does nor the clean spike from backstab (if used right on a low target thats an ista down/kill for your team) by going staff/ bw you give up the stealth fields for your team, the mobility from shadowshot, you give up the interrupts from headshot, the burst from heartseeker+auto chain.

Staff is yes great for teamfights and holding on nodes. However that said, that is not your job as thief, thiefs job is to use the mobility of its class to +1, decap and FINISH a fight QUICKLY. By holding a pocket in staff not doing the listed above you are not helping your team to its full potential.

Uhhhh wrong. Min and reckless prioritizes staff over d/p. They’re my guildies and we have been training reckless in the proper use of staff over what is stereotyped about staff which a lot of people have common misconceptions about. Reckless is a d/p convert to staff now. Staff is by far the most versatile weaponset bar none for thief since there’s so much you can do with it at high level gameplay.

People seem to think staff thief is a +1’er. Well here’s a hint. You’re wrong. It can fill a couple roles when played right.

So what is this role you talk about “when played right”? Please elaborate

Sind stop arguing with these wvw’ers, they talk from a low tier perspective, they will never understand unless they go pro and they won’t.

Elxdark.9702:

Sind stop arguing with these wvw’ers, they talk from a low tier perspective, they will never understand unless they go pro and they won’t.

I wouldn’t even say that so much as it is the formats causing such varied opinions in how effective things are, and their respective metas, are largely different. I made D/D power quite viable in WvW since release up until the stealth attack ICD, despite knowing well in sPvP it’s a non-functional weapon. The same is said for how staff plays in WvW and how stats and damage etc. are calculated via scaling.

High-level PvP has always been about the utility and durability/point presence game as a whole. The thief’s role has always been to get through the gaps (the proper word is filtered) in the armor and bring strategic play value in its mobility. D/P brings so much more utility than staff in any given fight for the thief to fulfill that role. Unlike WvW, the profession just lacks the stats due to its design to scale effectively in PvP for its damage, and lacks the profession durability to be a good fighter to hold points. Nothing will change that, and the increase of CC and mitigation in HoT only perpetuates this. It’s the same reason as to why Shortbow will always be used; the mobility and utility there is what defines the thief itself.

In WvW, this isn’t the case, as fighting is substantially more accessible via the stat pools available to the thief. The utility just doesn’t matter as much, and you’re up against tons of different people of widely-varying skill levels with builds that are much more diverse and at different power levels than in sPvP. Vault can easily one-shot players in WvW play, while it struggles to deal substantial damage in sPvP. Obviously the “value” of any given skill or weapon set as such will be treated much differently with such varying perspectives.

bluri.2653:

I couldn’t care any less if you think I’m good or bad because no matter how you put it I’m 1 out of 4 thieves that have competed in WTS and only one of them quit this game, so who are these other great players you mention? I’m curious

You seem to have this “I know it all” kind of attitude and no one else seems to understand anything, guess what? I already clearly stated why Staff is inferior to D/P in competitive play in my posts, if you read them again maybe that will clarify something for you.

Also I do hope you understand this discussion comes from me saying that D/P is the only viable option in competing (5v5 conquest team vs team), this has nothing to do with normal sPVP.

They are fellow wvw players I knew and who have long quit the game.
I already discussed with you: On the one hand you say that stealth is no problem in pvp, on the other you say you need the excessive stealth D/P brings in pvp, otherwise thief doesn’t work. That was when I stopped listening.
I never said you were bad, just indirectly that this game is nothing more but faceroll anymore. You might know or guess when to use your interrupt, still you can spam it and D/P always could. D/P is no better than the rest of the metabuilds = pretty brainless. I just wish more people would get that.

I didn’t read your comment, sorry, I was answering to the OP.

D/P has always been the strongest thief set. Others were still viable though, with some extra effort. Most “famous” thieves didn’t play D/P, not even in pvp, although D/D hasn’t been viable there for a long time.

I think it was also in June 2015 when the damage coefficents in pvp were changed to something different than what they are in wvw and pve (deceiver mentioned it above, I think, but I didn’t read the full post) – so in PvP only D/P was viable because of the utility you mainly need for dealing with other classes but thief.
I doubt that staff is equally viable because staff lacks utility. Some might still make it work in pvp and even duels in wvw (although I yet have to meet a staff thief that kills me D/D thief) – but they likely outskill their opponent.

But if this is news to anyone, then: Welcome to this game.

A lack of Stealth to throw off your enemy for rotations, jukes or to help out a teammate that’s low and can be saved with a quick stealth. Not to mention simple openers…
No reliable interrupts to turn the tide of fights. General lower mobility (even if you do take Dash and Shortbow), which ties in directly to gap closers etc…

Fact of the matter is, D/P offers more utility for your team than Staff does. Staff brings better cleave and the option to blind 3 targets at once, that’s it in a stripped down, but honest version. But if you want better point pressence, play a Rev, Engi or Guard. They can do it and they’re far better picks.
Truly it’s a shame that we don’t got other weaponsets that are just as viable as D/P (I personally always preffered the feel of S/D), but that’s simply how the cookie crumbles. Deal with it.

You’re free to play anything you like ofcourse, but you probably shouldn’t go making assumptions and stating them as facts.

Jana.6831:

Mature people actually explain stuff.

But he has explained it. According to Sindrener, D/P with dash offers more mobility than bound builds and more stealth than non-D/P dash builds. He’s stated those two advantages in mobility and stealth makes D/P w/ dash better in competitive circumstances. He’s stated the reasons for why this is important is mainly because of how much more easily he can be tracked and countered by the communication of the opposing team if he has less stealth and less mobility.

(As a WvW player, you’re likely less familiar with how easily a roaming thief can be countered in sPvP by preemptively moving to one of the numerous areas on sPvP maps where there’s no pathing for steal or other teleports. Having stealth on demand and high mobility counters this by making movements both more sudden and less obvious – players can’t bug our ports if they don’t know we’re coming.) For some, such as yourself, the explanations haven’t been enough.

Nevertheless, there’s a broader problem here being demonstrated by Urejt, Jana, and others. Sindrener is happy to stream, explain his in-game decisions as they happen, and from the point of view of one of the best, if not the best, thieves currently playing the game. In other words, he’s a resource for helping players like us improve more quickly (particularly for those who have loftier goals for sPvP) that you’re not taking advantage of. And for what? To play a know-it-all or a victim on the internet?

I believe the infamous June ‘15 patch actually improved D/D performance in sPvP as if I’m not mistaken they normalized CnD to a 1.25 coefficient from 1.0 (and brought WvW’s down from 1.5 to 1.25).

D/D will absolutely never be as good as D/P just because that utility in highly-skilled environments matters more. It doesn’t really matter how good the player is and was – there were many excellent D/D players some years ago who quite frankly may have been just as good as the pros, but there is no way to prove these claims now or then because they have since moved on and the set was not and never was competitive enough (except at launch when it was overpowered) due to the lack of utility.

D/D, functionally, is largely a one-dimensional kit. To make it work as well as D/P, it requires more skill to play just as effectively in higher-skill environments. That said, because of the limitations on its kit, it will plateau when against other meta builds much more quickly than D/P, even in the hands of the “better player”.

For D/D to become a top-tier competitive set, OH dagger needs numerous improvements, other professions and abilities need nerfs, and Death Blossom requires a rework in its entirety. You can be excellent on D/D but it genuinely does not matter because the skill gaps at the highest tiers of play are just not substantial enough to let it work due to the innate weaknesses of the kit and simply how good the players at the top really are and how evenly they play.

oh poor bluri! How can he know how powerful staff is, if he never played it nor saw true master of staff. How delusional he must be to deny huge dps and dueling capabilities to staff?

DeceiverX.8361:

I believe the infamous June ‘15 patch actually improved D/D performance in sPvP as if I’m not mistaken they normalized CnD to a 1.25 coefficient from 1.0 (and brought WvW’s down from 1.5 to 1.25).

D/D will absolutely never be as good as D/P just because that utility in highly-skilled environments matters more. It doesn’t really matter how good the player is and was – there were many excellent D/D players some years ago who quite frankly may have been just as good as the pros, but there is no way to prove these claims now or then because they have since moved on and the set was not and never was competitive enough (except at launch when it was overpowered) due to the lack of utility.

D/D, functionally, is largely a one-dimensional kit. To make it work as well as D/P, it requires more skill to play just as effectively in higher-skill environments. That said, because of the limitations on its kit, it will plateau when against other meta builds much more quickly than D/P, even in the hands of the “better player”.

For D/D to become a top-tier competitive set, OH dagger needs numerous improvements, other professions and abilities need nerfs, and Death Blossom requires a rework in its entirety. You can be excellent on D/D but it genuinely does not matter because the skill gaps at the highest tiers of play are just not substantial enough to let it work due to the innate weaknesses of the kit and simply how good the players at the top really are and how evenly they play.

I don’t think you and I are ever going to agree on thief lol. Mind you, I don’t think you are wrong (in that i think you make sense) but I don’t think you are correct either.

• DB does not need a rework.
• Dare devil (and all other elite specs) are just stupidly designed.
• It’s not a skill gap that separates D/D’s from D/P, it’s lack of options.
• Thief has no sustain without sacrificing burst their only strength (Burst Damage) they are the only class that has this problem.
• It’s not a skill gap problem; rather, it’s that thieves have no room for learning. there is no room for making mistakes at all with a thief unless you run a pure evasion build. in order to kill one opponent a thief needs to blow most of their cooldowns and all of their initiative (even if they get that initiative back through the use of other skills).

Honestly DeceiverX, I respect you as a player, but I’ve also fought you on my thief. Last season i was new to thief, so it was not a skill gap issue.

Urejt.5648:

oh poor bluri! How can he know how powerful staff is, if he never played it nor saw true master of staff. How delusional he must be to deny huge dps and dueling capabilities to staff?

What was it that happened to cause you to decide to troll?

Haha i saw yesterday a guy on forum who was talking about staff i think Sind you shoudn’t even answer,after these words ‘’Staff can teamfight. Staff is life, staff is love, but dont forget about pp!’‘.I just understood that it’s full trolling from him XD
I know that you prbbly answer that you don’t care about wat he said just answered to it’s stupidity of Urejt,but if you felt a bit bad remember that me and many others understand that you talked about PROPLAYER SCENE and dat Guy coudn’t see dat wat he was answering allways is just troolling i think,you talk about PROSCENE he just doesn’t count it and continues to argue with roffling.And all OTHER PPL talking about some legendary THIEF GHOSTS who left game,and then d/p became meta it’s just funny ‘’Sinderer has got a great timing, but all others that WERE BETTER than him have already left. ’’Guys all talked about is wvw staff players who weren’t in proscene,so we can’t know them,but they EXIST AHAHA,and they LEFT ….Omg THE TOPIC was about STAFF VIABLE ON PROSCENE but guys just blabla talking and chilling about other staff like:
1.‘’WE KNOW LEGENDARY PLAYERS THAT WERE IN GAME!! players that were better than Sindrenner and left game,they played diffrent staff’’ lol
2.‘’Stafff is viable it’s even defeating proleague players in pvp’’ but WHY we don’t see dat on PROSCENE,guys who read dat and wanna proove smthing about staff as great as d/p or even BETTER hahahaPLS GO TO PROSCENE.Don’t kittening upload videoes where YOU KILL someone like Heltheh or others with your STAFF in RANKED and call this is VIABLE OPTION ON PROSCENE. MAKE Sindrenerr see dat viableTHE TRUE GOD OF STAFF THIEF!!(prbbly it’s Silencia XDDDD) Show us all you can on PROSCENE and become god OF ALL THIEFS
3.Urej just roffling all time like:
‘’Anyway i hope ppl explore staff a little bit more.’’
‘’Oh boy. Ppl say staff can not fulfill the role of dp. I highly disagree. It can do everything dp can (exept stelath) and so much more!’’
‘’oh poor bluri! How can he know how powerful staff is, if he never played it nor saw true master of staff. How delusional he must be to deny huge dps and dueling capabilities to staff?’’ HOW CAN YOU TALK ABOUT IT’S VIABLE OPTION ON PROSCENE IF IT IS NOW EVEN NOT SEEN THERE,MAYBE PROPLAYERS KNOW BETTER THAN SOME RANKED GOD OR WVW DOMINATOR,WHO THINK THAT HE IS BETTER BUT DOESN’T PLAY ON PROSCENE,BUT WHY YOU TALK ABOUT VIABILITY OF STAFF IN DAT SPACE IF YOU DON’T EVEN EXIST THERE,Sind talked about proscene staff which you even don’t belong to Urejt
4.VERY VERY GOOD WVWE PLAYERS left game they were better than Sindrenerr blabla
5.and ppl who can’t argue with your experience,cause you’re proplayer,we’ve seen you on proscene,but dat ghosts who ppl talk about haven’t appeared on proscene haven’t showed their good play there.Maybe they showed it to such players as Jana and others on pvpranked or wvw BUT haven’t prooved the viable state of staff thief ON THE PROSCENE!!!

I am not as great as many thiefs,my mapawareness is not the best,i suck in 1v1situations to many thiefs like Black Daemon who likes jumping puzzles and jukes on some maps and just outplays me,and many others .I never was great i am ’’OK’’ thief but not good and not bad i am not multiclass guy who plays ok on all calsses,i love only thief but i know weakness of other classes and when to atack or when to escape,but sometiems greedy and die,i don’t play WvW or 1v1 arenas,i had left this game many times and only started to uderstand my role as thief only in 2 or 3 season,i was capping allways close and tryed to 1v1 someone and called it my role but then i found Sindrenerr which showed me true basics and other stuff,THX
BUT even if i am just ’’OK’’ and you some guys who are better than me who maybe even play from start of the game,and allready named yourself ’’Proplayers’’ who have good reactions or some ‘’third eye’’ who think that you are allowed to talk so confident about viable options of staff thief on proscene and haven’t played there,you recking all on WvW and PvP ranked but haven’t been on proscene,pls just stop this nonesense.
The MAIN PROBLEM Sind as you said ,many guys start to have this (“I know it all” kind of attitude’ and just shtfu i can’t hear you,you’re not any good to talk with such AMAZING PLAYER AS ME) when they allready dominating against other thiefs 1v1,rotation,they’ve became SOOO good at recking others that they can start to talk about proscene tactics,viable options and other stuff,they start to enter some Famous WvW guilds with Legendary roamers prbbly start to make their own youtube channel post videos how they have outnumbered fights turned to their win,and just how they are amazing, i won’t disagree you are amazing guys you can contoll your patient mode even when outnumbered,you have good minicontroll and just prediction,you are good,great mayeb even the best thiefs buut you don’t appear at proscene pls we can’t see this revolution on proscene if you don’t appear there.
YOU ARE our FUTURE BOYSSS,if you wanna proove smthing GO FIGHT,stop talking like others are trash and don’t know anythign,you making Sind feel sad for you as a comunity of Toxic Baguettes.
MAKE THE GW2 PROSCENE POPULATION INCREASED,DON’T TALK ABOUT THINGS IN WHICH YOU DON’T PARTICIPATE.DON’T BE GUYS THAT ARE GAINED SO MUCH EXPERIENCE BY MUCH DUELS,ROAMING AND OTHER STUFF,AND BECOMING SO PROUD THAT DON’T SEE SUCH BRIGHT THINGS LIKE DIFFRENSE BEETWEEN THE PERSON WHO WAS ON PROSCENE AND THE GUY WHO PLAYS ALL HIS TIME IN WVW OR 1V1 ARENAS,
And also Urejt if you’re so good go to this,register your team,and MAKE REVOULUTION IN OUR MIND THERE IS ALSO 2V2 SO TAKE YOUR FRIEND AND MAKE US PROUD OF YOU
CHECK THIS: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/GW2LADD-first-international-season/first#post6408198

IT’S ALSO FOR SUCH GUYS WHO REALLY WANT TO PROVE SOMETHING
And also
All things have a right to grow!THX

Last time I saw staff in pvp seriously was this time last year when Caed was still on team spoookie. I remember everyone lost it because everything else was mirror comp and was unbearable to watch. It was pretty unanimous that staff build was the most entertaining build of the day for sure. Also he got called MVP of the match by the casters. Trying to remember who it was against. Then he left the team and I quit watching that season. It was boring. The same comp every game.

Are u ruby yet?

I like staff for solo queue. It’s a flexible build that can fill in gaps / cover for big mistakes by your team better than D/P – it’s much better at holding/stalling caps in a duel and has less one-sided match-ups, so you have more potential to outplay a condi mesmer or a guardian than you would on D/P. When the skill differential on your team can be all over the place and the team comps have gaping holes I find staff to be valuable.

In competitive 5v5 team play? Forget about it. You should never be holding a point 1v1 waiting for people to rotate to you – if you are your teammates should be fired. +1s matter more than dueling power when you can count on your team to contest multiple points at once. Stealth jukes matter more when everyone is watching and communicating what’s going on. D/P is very clearly better when you get to focus on what you do best, rotating and +1ing fights your teammates are already engaged in.

But when it comes time to carry a bunch of randoms eating paste and dogpiling onto mid, I’d much rather have staff for its point control and 1v1 power.

I really want to like staff in pvp, and I’ve played many matches with it. I’ve even done quite well in team fights and 1v1s. However, I never feel as impactful to the match as I do when I play d/p. I can carry so much better because I can control where I want to be and where I want my opponents to be so much better. I have to agree with Sid. Staff is fine for solo q, but d/p brings the uniqueness of “Thief” into conquest matches.

emkelly.2371:

(Cut for length)

I think you misunderstand some of what I wrote, and I think it’s also important to note that my stance comes directed from a Power perspective. While condi D/D is a build and a viable one in WvW, it will also never seen pro-level play because again its kit is way too one-dimensional and dependent on what is quite frankly a relatively gimmicky style of play. DB and the condi D/D concept would need to be redone anyways in order to enable it at that level.
I said (or meant to convey) that D/D (in its power state) isn’t able to see pro play just because the skill gap required to play that much better than your opponent to make it work is just non-existent at that level. A D/D player can absolutely out-play other thieves and scoop a win, but he simply just needs to be better than his opponent, and by what’s typically a fairly large margin. As far as fighting me (I don’t remember ever fighting you, sorry :s), I often have my good and bad days and matchups are finnicky, so results can swing wildly :P

The elites largely are horribly designed. A lot needs to be changed, frankly. Regardless of stance on the status of utility or versatility in general, what can be said is D/D suffers more from the HoT content than other sets, even when compared to other professions’s options.

The biggest problem with D/D as you said is it lacks the utility and/or options. Frankly, if you look at the design underlying OH dagger and then compare its kit options to OH pistol, and then compare the subsets of differing MH weapons, the conclusion to be drawn is that at the end of the day, there’s very little way to make OH dagger balanced/competitive without changing DB. The kit suffers from poor mobility, unreliable stealth, unreliable damage, unreliable or pointless utility, poor disruption, and lack of any group support capabilities (allied leap/blast Black Powder for stomps, for example). While I think a nerf to a lot of the HoT content and tweaks to the skills as they are (particularly CnD and the stealth attack ICD) would go far in helping its consistency issues, it still suffers from a very poor engage which is the majority of what the thief should be focusing on in its fighting kit for + 1’s. Unlike D/P and the S/X builds, D/D lacks the capacity to soft reset on-demand and lacks general engage speed to get on point and + 1 with a relative degree of “safety” so to speak. Given some bonus mobility rivaling that of Shadow Shot and an improved evade, DB could let the kit succeed much better in the hit-and-run + 1 game while not being arbitrarily punished by passives, AoE’s, etc. that Shadow Shot often gets around, and let the thief soft-reset via this mobility rather than depend on stealth via BP+Leap (or a mix of both from CnD), say.

The sustain issues are also highly-based on a mixture of sPvP amulets and the HoT power creep, as well as the nature of sPvP in general. The thief at its core isn’t meant to be inherently durable outside of stealth, which poses a problem when holding points. With the mobility access and quick damage it has, I don’t think this will change, otherwise. The thief should bring enough sustain to fight effectively in a duel or maybe 2v2, but beyond that, it shouldn’t be holding points for multiple seconds when strictly outnumbered.

Your last point again is still largely an sPvP/stat issue. Frankly, when I play to win in WvW/Arena/etc., I rarely use my signets on engage, and I never use SoS unless desperate. A good half the time when I fight others, I find myself winning without using at least two utilities, sometimes none except for Withdraw and BV. When the stats are there to let the thief scale, it doesn’t need to unload everything to win a duel when outplaying the opponent. The problem is that again, the profession ends up needing to depend on these abilities because the margin for error due to the nature of stats in sPvP and how the profession achieves its damage is lower. The issue revolves back to D/P being superior however not because it has less margin for error, but because when that margin for error is so low at the pro-level play scene, it often boils down to simply using D/D is too much “error” to make it work for reasons mentioned above.

D/P is superior. D/P is a Hit and Run set with crazy Stealth and Blind access and kitten crackin infight mobility. In fact this set makes thieves so much annoying to fight. On top of that it has also good interrupts. Compare that to all other sets and everybody should see that it is the way to go. Makes not much sense that the set with the highest Stealth also have the highest Blind Access beside S/P.

Problem i see is this Set is Gankers Choice. For me Anet should nerved the blinds Access a long time ago. D/D should have Blind access(More than D/P) because u have to do CnD for Stealth. D/P has higher stealth access(and easier).

So Sindrener has right what he says. D/P offers all what u need in most Situations. In my view it offers to much in compare to all other sets. And it is one of the problems why thief has such a bad build diversity.

The way I see it: staff is inferior because it is terrible at +1 (which is a major part of your role). Basically the more cc a class has in addition to damage, the more effective it is at killing a target in +1. Staff thief, however, has very little cc. This is especially true if you run acrobatics (= no panic strike).
The fact that you have no stealth aka no surprise element, makes this even worse.

Thats the point. I really don’t understand why the Set ( D/P) which has access in a easy way for stealth also has the best utility across the board. Im a lovely thief player since RLS and i love my class. But this is a fact.

Much respect for all thiefs/daredevils who runs a non D/P Build <3

ok staff vs dp from a neutral 3rd party perspective:

As a mesmer I hate staff but love DP. Staff abuses evade frames and kill my clones before I can land my conditions. The frustrations with D/P doesn’t necessarily come from the thief but more of his team. I’m no pro pvper, but from my experience you can make the maps smaller to shut down a D/P thief. If you keep home covered properly and force 4v4’s and 5v5’s all game long the thief is useless. They can’t decap your home and them staying in the team fight is a death wish. Now if they do decap your home you can do a 4v5 at mid wipe them then get the 2 cap back. Where I see thieves shine is when their team can fight those outnumbered fights and not get destroyed. Then a thief’s mobility creates enough point gap post decap to recouperate after a death on their team.

Staff I haven’t really seen in the pro league besides Caed in S1. That was during the kitten show bunker meta, and I’d honestly enjoy seeing him come back on staff thief again to see how it pans out in today’s game. That being said staff thieves can 1v1 and team fight in lesser number fights. 2v2 3v3 I’ve seen staff thieves just destroy. Is Sind correct in his assessment at pro level?

Prolly, but I will say I’d like to see him give staff thief a go at the pro level. The tools that the weapon offers are just down right insane. Staff IMHO is like a combination of D/P, S/D, and SB all rolled up into 1 weapon. You got AOE blinds, Dodge frame abuse, AoE cleave, and mobility. If you take SB as your secondary you keep that mobility albeit not as much as the D/P meta, but more than enough to do the decap role of thief.

I’d personally like to see a staff thief in pro league to get a full proper assessment of it.

I don’t see what the point of this whole argument is. Sind has always said staff will work in ranked and 5v5s, just not at the highest level. That’s his opinion. If you want to play staff, play staff. If you can play staff at WTS level, that’s awesome. Bring more diversity to thief. More power to you. But for now, the way it stands, nobody at the top tier plays staff. Go ahead and prove Sind wrong. I’m sure he won’t hate you for it.
Staff thief plays a completely different role and offers nothing that can’t be done by other classes, and that’s my personal opinion. You could disagree, stick with it, and maybe someday represent all staff thieves at the WTS.