Guild Wars 2

I would like to see some changes to D/D.
I like how many say CnD needs blind added by default.
Maybe making CnD baseline 4s stealth as it is traited with SA.

One of the reasons I believe D/P is favored over D/D is D/D number 3 does very little in terms of physical attack damage or utility. Increasing the Physical attack might make that skill worth using or perhaps simply adding a cc condition to it. Immobilize might work with it very well. If you are facing your opponent and you Death BLossom you can float to their other side but they wont be able to get away right away so it sets you up for a CnD>backstab. They even lowered the baseline condi damage in a previous patch when u dont spec into it so Death blossom could be potentially useful for both Physical specs and Condition Specs without being too good for both specs at the same time.

D/P is a great gap closer and since D/D isnt, give us a little power to keep enemies closer via cc as an alternative to D/P’s shadowshot.

But something like DeathBlossom with cc might be too op depending on the cc and how it applies, and how much it applies.

Perhaps death blossom out of stealth only applies a cc.

How about Dancing Dagger as a CC?

Every second day someone opens a post about this topic. ^^
Suggestions from my [thread:]

Kicker.8203:

—Dagger

• AA: be careful not to overbuff its damage. It’s already the best AA on the class just thief is not in the meta ATM.
• Death Blossom: evade is now 1/2 and it’s a spamm skill for condi builds. It has to scale more with power. To prevent spamming it and add more play, it should switch -if any of the attacks hit- into a second skill(I don’t insist on a certain skill but to give you an idea:)
  Marked for Death: Death Blossom marks the foe first hit similarly to how Shadow Trap does.
  —Marked for Death(3 initiative): You can teleport to and knockdown your foe as soon as he is at least 900 range away from you. (if you can’t catch up you can just run in the other direction, fun counterplay)
  If the teleport is not used in the following 6 seconds or so, the skill would reset back to Death Blossom.
  The point is adding a flipping skill to prevent evade spamming without adding CD.
  Possible variants:
  Same, but you teleport automatically upon reaching 900 range.
  —Why teleport? D/D has no mobility.
• Shadow Shot: reduce blind duration from 5s to 3s.
• Dancing Dagger: To add more play: double (or highly increase)the damage of the 2nd and 4th hit from this skill. (it would reward choosing the right target for your first dagger. If there are 2 foes near each other you deal more dmg to the one you didn’t target.)
• Cloak and Dagger: this skill is very difficult to hit opposed to the smoke field+heartseeker combo. Using it puts you at risk as a thief so it should either reward a successful hit with a bit longer stealth duration or blind application.
  bug: Steal with Mug+ CnD often causes self-reveal.(teleport+CnD happens before mug damage)

Kicker.8203:

Every second day someone opens a post about this topic. ^^
Suggestions from my [thread:]

Kicker.8203:

—Dagger

• AA: be careful not to overbuff its damage. It’s already the best AA on the class just thief is not in the meta ATM.
• Death Blossom: evade is now 1/2 and it’s a spamm skill for condi builds. It has to scale more with power. To prevent spamming it and add more play, it should switch -if any of the attacks hit- into a second skill(I don’t insist on a certain skill but to give you an idea:)
  Marked for Death: Death Blossom marks the foe first hit similarly to how Shadow Trap does.
  —Marked for Death(3 initiative): You can teleport to and knockdown your foe as soon as he is at least 900 range away from you. (if you can’t catch up you can just run in the other direction, fun counterplay)
  If the teleport is not used in the following 6 seconds or so, the skill would reset back to Death Blossom.
  The point is adding a flipping skill to prevent evade spamming without adding CD.
  Possible variants:
  Same, but you teleport automatically upon reaching 900 range.
  —Why teleport? D/D has no mobility.
• Shadow Shot: reduce blind duration from 5s to 3s.
• Dancing Dagger: To add more play: double (or highly increase)the damage of the 2nd and 4th hit from this skill. (it would reward choosing the right target for your first dagger. If there are 2 foes near each other you deal more dmg to the one you didn’t target.)
• Cloak and Dagger: this skill is very difficult to hit opposed to the smoke field+heartseeker combo. Using it puts you at risk as a thief so it should either reward a successful hit with a bit longer stealth duration or blind application.
  bug: Steal with Mug+ CnD often causes self-reveal.(teleport+CnD happens before mug damage)

Still do not like your suggestions. Death blossom is fine as is. Condition builds need a weapon set for melee that is used for conditions. Power sets have many options already. DB is the best source of AOE condition damage a thief has and far too many people want to break that build because they do not like condition builds. Arguing against the spam a non issue as this gets you killed.

There no need to lower the blind on d/p.

Power boost to dancing dagger does little to add utility or flavor. All you are doing is making every option more power. Making 1 , 2 ,4 and 5 all hit harder as a solution is not reasonable given the nature of ini. 1 , 2 and 5 already hit hard for high damage. There simply no reason to add this to 4.

Not every set should have a port. Weapon sets should be different and just not cut and paste the same utilityy from another set, rename it and claim it a fix. I am fine knowing d/d has lower mobility than other sets if it gives me something else that an advantage.

Again I do not think blind on 5 is enough to differntiate the set from d/p. Further to that a blind after a successful stealth is inferior to one prior. The blind from #5 should come via SA line so it an option. Increase Vuln stacks on 5 to 5 make them last longer and add a boon on successful stealth like resistance, stability or the like. or make it leech part of that damage back in the way of life or gain protection or some such. Make it different.

Jana.6831:

How about Dancing Dagger as a CC?

This. If dancing dagger had a CC and CnD had blind, D/D would be in a much better spot. Which supports what other people have been saying, that the problem with S/D and D/D is that x/D is under-performing.

I disagree with death blossom scaling more with power though, that would just lead to people making hybrid builds spamming evades in the same way the condi build currently functions. I personally wouldn’t have an issue with that, but that doesn’t seem to be the desired effect of those wanting to buff the skill :P

Honestly I don’t understand why D/D and P/P don’t have their own skill sets, separate from the other sets. Either that or extend the dual skill mechanic to 2 and 4, for instance, dancing dagger with D/D could port you to the enemy in the same way shadow shot does, but S/D would have a CC on it’s version of the skill. This also allows balancing of both sets while keeping a theme. (Just giving examples from D/P for reference, it would be better if they didn’t just rip off that set tbh :P )

babazhook.6805:

Still do not like your suggestions.(I don’t like yours either) Death blossom is fine as is. (thats why noone uses it) Condition builds need a weapon set for melee that is used for conditions.(good point but 1 condi skill doesnt make the whole set condi unless you only use that skill. maybe anet should add a condi wep next time) Power sets have many options already.(many=2 staff and d/p) DB is the best source of AOE condition damage a thief has and far too many people want to break that build because they do not like condition builds.(not condi builds just faceroll builds) Arguing against the spam a non issue as this gets you killed.(spam doesn’t necessarily mean that skill 3 is on autoattack. this kind of build can spam a variety of dodges in combination while also dealing damage. They dodge key skills by luck just because they just so happen to evade while using their highest damage skills(DB & Impaling Lotus. With correct traits/gear they can be spammed endlessly. As there is no Dire amulet in PvP this is fortunately not viable at higher levels.)

There no need to lower the blind on d/p.(Yes there is. 5s is long enough for it to be worth cleansing instead of waiting out. its already a bit of a spam skill and most people would have suggested more impactful nerfs.)

Power boost to dancing dagger does little to add utility or flavor.(yes it would make you think who to target while not being too strong on a single target)All you are doing is making every option more power. Making 1 , 2 ,4 and 5 all hit harder as a solution is not reasonable given the nature of ini. 1 , 2 and 5 already hit hard for high damage. There simply no reason to add this to 4.(Dancing daggers is supposed to be a cleave skill therefore it should deal more than 350/hit)

Not every set should have a port.(This is thief we are talking about. No mobility as melee=uselessness.) Weapon sets should be different and just not cut and paste the same utilityy from another set, rename it and claim it a fix.(it’s a unique suggestion compared to other teleport skills and would result in an entirely different gamestyle.) I am fine knowing d/d has lower mobility than other sets if it gives me something else that an advantage.(what advantage?)

Again I do not think blind on 5 is enough to differntiate the set from d/p.(with that blind they are still completely different; blind fits thief.) Further to that a blind after a successful stealth is inferior to one prior.(I see you’re an experienced one and you never had to dodge after using cloak and dagger on someone.) The blind from #5 should come via SA line so it an option.(because it is worth going SA with a dagger offhand…right?; black powder+HS already blinds, blinding powder blinds, last refuge blinds, this trait might as well become baseline at this point) Increase Vuln stacks on 5 to 5 make them last longer(that would be gamechanging.) and add a boon on successful stealth like resistance, stability or the like.(stability? thieves are not supposed to facetank damage, not even from CC skills. maybe as a warrior.) or make it leech part of that damage back in the way of life(thats necro) or gain protection(that would be guardian; if your goal is to blind/evade everything protection is the perfect fit indeed.) or some such. Make it different.

Corrected a few oversights in your post in ()s.

Then use DB, Kicker. Let me survive against 4 for a minute or so today.
I do agree though that thief has got a few skills that every thief needs (more or less) – so it’s pretty useless to say that only D/P should have it. We’re not talking about different classes here – and even most of them have got teleports, stealth and blind.

Kicker.8203:

babazhook.6805:

Still do not like your suggestions.(I don’t like yours either) Death blossom is fine as is. (thats why noone uses it) Condition builds need a weapon set for melee that is used for conditions.(good point but 1 condi skill doesnt make the whole set condi unless you only use that skill. maybe anet should add a condi wep next time) Power sets have many options already.(many=2 staff and d/p) DB is the best source of AOE condition damage a thief has and far too many people want to break that build because they do not like condition builds.(not condi builds just faceroll builds) Arguing against the spam a non issue as this gets you killed.(spam doesn’t necessarily mean that skill 3 is on autoattack. this kind of build can spam a variety of dodges in combination while also dealing damage. They dodge key skills by luck just because they just so happen to evade while using their highest damage skills(DB & Impaling Lotus. With correct traits/gear they can be spammed endlessly. As there is no Dire amulet in PvP this is fortunately not viable at higher levels.)

There no need to lower the blind on d/p.(Yes there is. 5s is long enough for it to be worth cleansing instead of waiting out. its already a bit of a spam skill and most people would have suggested more impactful nerfs.)

Power boost to dancing dagger does little to add utility or flavor.(yes it would make you think who to target while not being too strong on a single target)All you are doing is making every option more power. Making 1 , 2 ,4 and 5 all hit harder as a solution is not reasonable given the nature of ini. 1 , 2 and 5 already hit hard for high damage. There simply no reason to add this to 4.(Dancing daggers is supposed to be a cleave skill therefore it should deal more than 350/hit)

Not every set should have a port.(This is thief we are talking about. No mobility as melee=uselessness.) Weapon sets should be different and just not cut and paste the same utilityy from another set, rename it and claim it a fix.(it’s a unique suggestion compared to other teleport skills and would result in an entirely different gamestyle.) I am fine knowing d/d has lower mobility than other sets if it gives me something else that an advantage.(what advantage?)

Again I do not think blind on 5 is enough to differntiate the set from d/p.(with that blind they are still completely different; blind fits thief.) Further to that a blind after a successful stealth is inferior to one prior.(I see you’re an experienced one and you never had to dodge after using cloak and dagger on someone.) The blind from #5 should come via SA line so it an option.(because it is worth going SA with a dagger offhand…right?; black powder+HS already blinds, blinding powder blinds, last refuge blinds, this trait might as well become baseline at this point) Increase Vuln stacks on 5 to 5 make them last longer(that would be gamechanging.) and add a boon on successful stealth like resistance, stability or the like.(stability? thieves are not supposed to facetank damage, not even from CC skills. maybe as a warrior.) or make it leech part of that damage back in the way of life(thats necro) or gain protection(that would be guardian; if your goal is to blind/evade everything protection is the perfect fit indeed.) or some such. Make it different.

Corrected a few oversights in your post in ()s.

You did not correct any oversights in my post. All you did was impose your own vision of what a given weaponset should do. That is not debate. You are entitled to differences of opinion. You are not entitled to change what I said and claim your version a fact.

Just as example claiming no one uses DB in one sentence and than in the next claiming it a faceroll skill is a contradiction. People either use it or they do not. If no one uses it than it not a faceroll skill. Spamming a blind is no less faceroll then spamming DB yet blind seems to be the fix for everything

If you just want to make every set a power build because it better suits your style than make your case. Do not obfuscate.

Now as to to leeching being necro. What exactly is the trait leeching venoms?

To your take on stability or resistance. In case you forgot we already had stability in the old acro line. While it short lived it does not suggest it intended for only tanking classes. Stability to a Cnd user would just mean more of his attacks get off without being interrupted or feared. Again an advantage over d/p.

Resistance was also originally proposed for acro and we got guarded initiative instead. Were the original proposal still there more would be taking acro.

Another has suggested making dancing dagger a CC skill. this makes more sense than just another source of damage. A PULL or knockdown would work very well here and serve far more utility then just do more damage and would be used more often. DD power could than use DB as an evade and proc any on evade effects, they could use 4 as CC and perform pulls or knockdowns. cnD (plug in something here). These are all Advantages over d/p rather then just copy what d/p does. Pull/Cnd/Backstab all off the d/d set sounds a lot more interesting than damage damage damage and is very much different the d/p.

Pull would also work wonderfully to pull a DH out of his traps or a person parked on AOE.

See unlike you I do not make a proposal and than demand everyone must accept my version. Others have better ideas and CC in the dancing dagger spot is certainly one of them.

The reason I suggested some half dozen odd proposals for CND is because I am not settled on anything and am open to other suggestions. These suggestions that are not just blind again for reasons I stated many times over.

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP. Alternatively, instead of blinding it could steal a boon if they move CiS back down to master tier.

Dancing Dagger needs some improvements.
My Idea since long is the following one:

Increase Dmg by 50-75%. And then it works like this:
First hit hits with 100%, 2nd hit with only 75%, 3rd hit with 50% and last hit with 25%
All hits inflict a 3s cripple, first hit is an additional 0,25 daze.

As well as projectile speed increase 33-50%

Maugetarr.6823:

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP. Alternatively, instead of blinding it could steal a boon if they move CiS back down to master tier.

It must be remembered off hand dagger is also used on p/d as off hand. 4 can not just help power sets. Too many are biased towards condition builds and just want to marginalize them. (not speaking about you in particular)

It also used in s/d and i do not think s/d needs another port to skill with condition removal. what purpose would #2 serve over #4 on s/d? so while your idea could work nicely for d/d p/d what of s/d? What are the ramifications of a port 2 and a port away on p/d?

Those making proposals for #4 off hand dagger have to understand there two other weaponsets to consider.

Jana suggested CC and i think that a great idea. Ie a PULl could help p/d d/d and s/d. Someone asked how s/d fights DH on point. Well here is one way. Cnd lowering INi cost AND a blind does work as this gives advantages over d/p in total ini spent to stealth.

back to 4 ,maintain the cripple and it can also help p/d (pull into caltrops field Cnd sneak attack shadowstrike) The dancing dagger will go on and hit those other enemies crippling them while the first one struck gets affected by the pull. Also great for breaking defiance bars.

Death blossom is fine as it is or better as it was. Buff the bleeding, evade or skill, but leave me my D/D – I don’t care whether or not you “would consider using it if the skill were changed to be directional” – I’m using the set as it is very successfully for now 2 years. The stuff that kittened it up was: camera change, evade frame change and traitmerge – before that the set was splendid wheras weak in comparison to (then) all other thief weapons.

ETA: Something like scorpionwire on dancing dagger would be nice.
ETA²: And I don’t give a kitten if someone decides to annoy people with condi spam with it – it’s either a craze that’s going to go away or daredevil’s fault but not that of D/D.
ETA³: In before someone points out that I created “please nerf D/P” – you could still play D/P if you had to trait some of the utilities it has got now – I couldn’t play D/D like I used to if a directional cast was added. And if you say it’s impossible to predict a movement right now: L2P.

Baba:

DeceiverX.8361

Dagger Training Should apply poison to each auto attack at a 100% chance, and just the auto. Remove the bleed from Death Blossom, and put it on Dancing Dagger. Buff Dancing Dagger’s damage by 50% and remove the ability for it to hit the same target multiple times, and just have it hit the target and up to three nearby enemies.
Death Blossom should be reworked into a multi-hit evading lunge with better range than it has now, similar to Whirlwind Attack (Warrior GS3), at the cost of an additional initiative, giving the set more mobility and stickiness to compete with D/P and some evasion and disengage potential to keep it stylized in between S/D.

Gives P/D more bleeds, shuts down D/D DB spam cheese, makes DB and Dancing Dagger better on power, gives more utility to the set overall.

Jana:

As far as DB bleed spam goes, it’s not really Daredevil or a phase. The issue lies in buffing DB’s evades so substantially. If anything, Acro is better-suited for this build when on the defensive due to better initiative restoration. I predicted this issue arising quite literally years ago, and was rejected because it was a precious buff. Look where we are, and nothing is going to really change.

Your proclamations of not being able to play D/D as you do now if a directional cast were added stem from either an unfamiliarity with directional casting and therefore slow speed of use, slow mouse movement and action speed, or simply because the skill is functionally different, in which case, yes, it would be used oh so slightly differently, because it is.

That, or the evade lunge is a fixed distance which always travels forward, like the old Death’s Charge, as to preserve the fairness and integrity of the skill and overall avoid spamming effective invuln resetting/re-positioning.

DeceiverX.8361:

Jana:

As far as DB bleed spam goes, it’s not really Daredevil or a phase. The issue lies in buffing DB’s evades so substantially. If anything, Acro is better-suited for this build when on the defensive due to better initiative restoration. I predicted this issue arising quite literally years ago, and was rejected because it was a precious buff. Look where we are, and nothing is going to really change.

The build as it is is only possible because of daredevil as it is now. I have no idea how acro will turn out – but I guess it won’t be better than before and in fact I already ran 06440 – it wasn’t as with daredevil now.

DeceiverX.8361:

Your proclamations of not being able to play D/D as you do now if a directional cast were added stem from either an unfamiliarity with directional casting and therefore slow speed of use, slow mouse movement and action speed, or simply because the skill is functionally different, in which case, yes, it would be used oh so slightly differently, because it is.

I also play warrior from time to time and it takes me too long to cast that skill to make DB work properly if it were implemented. My guess is that the majority of you a) never played D/D b) never used DB, c) quit playing this game long ago.

ETA: If anything the directional cast could be seen as a crutch – for those who don’t know how to make this skill work. It doesn’t require more skill.

DeceiverX.8361:

Baba:

DeceiverX.8361

Dagger Training Should apply poison to each auto attack at a 100% chance, and just the auto. Remove the bleed from Death Blossom, and put it on Dancing Dagger. Buff Dancing Dagger’s damage by 50% and remove the ability for it to hit the same target multiple times, and just have it hit the target and up to three nearby enemies.
Death Blossom should be reworked into a multi-hit evading lunge with better range than it has now, similar to Whirlwind Attack (Warrior GS3), at the cost of an additional initiative, giving the set more mobility and stickiness to compete with D/P and some evasion and disengage potential to keep it stylized in between S/D.

Gives P/D more bleeds, shuts down D/D DB spam cheese, makes DB and Dancing Dagger better on power, gives more utility to the set overall.

Jana:

As far as DB bleed spam goes, it’s not really Daredevil or a phase. The issue lies in buffing DB’s evades so substantially. If anything, Acro is better-suited for this build when on the defensive due to better initiative restoration. I predicted this issue arising quite literally years ago, and was rejected because it was a precious buff. Look where we are, and nothing is going to really change.

Your proclamations of not being able to play D/D as you do now if a directional cast were added stem from either an unfamiliarity with directional casting and therefore slow speed of use, slow mouse movement and action speed, or simply because the skill is functionally different, in which case, yes, it would be used oh so slightly differently, because it is.

That, or the evade lunge is a fixed distance which always travels forward, like the old Death’s Charge, as to preserve the fairness and integrity of the skill and overall avoid spamming effective invuln resetting/re-positioning.

Without the added condition damage from the GM trait Lotus training the DB build can not output enough condition damage or varieties of conditions. This si why even with the added evade there few condition builds using d/d that are not also daredevil. It can work but will fare poorly. (the condi cleanse and heal off the evades that DD offers are very important to such a build)

Taking DB condition damage from the D/D set minimizes the GM trait Lotus training to the point where it all but useless. This because the only other real condition weapon would need to stay in range to maximize its effect. the P/d user would always have to stay at 300 range or less to use Impaling to any great effect. P/d uses Impaling to be sure but no where near the degree of d/d.

The major reason Impaling lotus works so well with DB builds is because DB fights at melee range so none of the Impaling can go to waste. DB evade to apply bleed also means you do not have to trait stealth in order to survive. P/d , needing stealth to get the sneak attack off will also be hindered by impaling if they dodge in stealth and it reveals them.

This makes the two sets very different from one another with both of them having very different gamestyles , advantages and disadvantages. this is a good thing.

you create a problem when you add the conditions to dancing dagger. in order to apply with safety given there no evade in dancing dagger one would have to stay at range. this would again cut into the effectiveness of Impaling Lotus GM trait forcing you to close in to use it. You do not move in towards an enemy with a condition build unless you can avoid damage or you die quickly. D/d does NOT have the instant port away that is shadowstrike.

P/d works as condition because of range and stealth. it could not survive otherwise without those two benefits. D/D works because of the evades and the fact it can get up close and use impaling, the AA for more poison and endurance gain and the DB . none of the sources of conditions “go to waste” because of the safety of range.

In essence your solution for d/d condition is to make it into an inferior ranged applicator of the same.I would Just take p/d then and use YOUR version of dancing dagger there. One build to rule them all is not diversity.

Yeah, don’t change Death Blossom, its the only way you can do any kind of condition pressure in melee, if anything boost the evade some more. You’re dead meat in the AoE swamp melee usually is if you’re not evading.

DD SKILL5 4 sec stealt if hits and 2 sec if miss 5sec cd off attack miss

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Baba:

DeceiverX.8361

Dagger Training Should apply poison to each auto attack at a 100% chance, and just the auto. Remove the bleed from Death Blossom, and put it on Dancing Dagger. Buff Dancing Dagger’s damage by 50% and remove the ability for it to hit the same target multiple times, and just have it hit the target and up to three nearby enemies.
Death Blossom should be reworked into a multi-hit evading lunge with better range than it has now, similar to Whirlwind Attack (Warrior GS3), at the cost of an additional initiative, giving the set more mobility and stickiness to compete with D/P and some evasion and disengage potential to keep it stylized in between S/D.

Gives P/D more bleeds, shuts down D/D DB spam cheese, makes DB and Dancing Dagger better on power, gives more utility to the set overall.

Jana:

As far as DB bleed spam goes, it’s not really Daredevil or a phase. The issue lies in buffing DB’s evades so substantially. If anything, Acro is better-suited for this build when on the defensive due to better initiative restoration. I predicted this issue arising quite literally years ago, and was rejected because it was a precious buff. Look where we are, and nothing is going to really change.

Your proclamations of not being able to play D/D as you do now if a directional cast were added stem from either an unfamiliarity with directional casting and therefore slow speed of use, slow mouse movement and action speed, or simply because the skill is functionally different, in which case, yes, it would be used oh so slightly differently, because it is.

That, or the evade lunge is a fixed distance which always travels forward, like the old Death’s Charge, as to preserve the fairness and integrity of the skill and overall avoid spamming effective invuln resetting/re-positioning.

Without the added condition damage from the GM trait Lotus training the DB build can not output enough condition damage or varieties of conditions. This si why even with the added evade there few condition builds using d/d that are not also daredevil. It can work but will fare poorly. (the condi cleanse and heal off the evades that DD offers are very important to such a build)

Taking DB condition damage from the D/D set minimizes the GM trait Lotus training to the point where it all but useless. This because the only other real condition weapon would need to stay in range to maximize its effect. the P/d user would always have to stay at 300 range or less to use Impaling to any great effect. P/d uses Impaling to be sure but no where near the degree of d/d.

The major reason Impaling lotus works so well with DB builds is because DB fights at melee range so none of the Impaling can go to waste. DB evade to apply bleed also means you do not have to trait stealth in order to survive. P/d , needing stealth to get the sneak attack off will also be hindered by impaling if they dodge in stealth and it reveals them.

This makes the two sets very different from one another with both of them having very different gamestyles , advantages and disadvantages. this is a good thing.

you create a problem when you add the conditions to dancing dagger. in order to apply with safety given there no evade in dancing dagger one would have to stay at range. this would again cut into the effectiveness of Impaling Lotus GM trait forcing you to close in to use it. You do not move in towards an enemy with a condition build unless you can avoid damage or you die quickly. D/d does NOT have the instant port away that is shadowstrike.

P/d works as condition because of range and stealth. it could not survive otherwise without those two benefits. D/D works because of the evades and the fact it can get up close and use impaling, the AA for more poison and endurance gain and the DB . none of the sources of conditions “go to waste” because of the safety of range.

In essence your solution for d/d condition is to make it into an inferior ranged applicator of the same.I would Just take p/d then and use YOUR version of dancing dagger there. One build to rule them all is not diversity.

It is intended to reduce the condition damage output from an evade. The proposed buff to Dagger Training getting a 100% chance of poison on AA makes the AA quite devastating, particularly if used with say, Haste or other quickness effects. D/D condi has dealt substantial-enough damage for a while; it captured the essence of condition build design in that it was slow to ramp and would deal substantial damage over a prolonged period of time. of sustained fights ticking your foes away. The build was very niche but it was used and could be quite effective in the right hands. It’s no cele ele killer, and neither is its power counterpart, but it could sustain well in most 1v1 encounters; the pre/post-cast delays on the evasion were was really killed it due to its lack of capacity to sustain when being targeted by two or more players. That said, being focus-fired should result in death after a fairly short period of time when up against foes with a reasonable amount of skill.

Lotus Training could see its range upped to 450 as a compromise between the sets. I didn’t consider the range on LT in the scope of P/D, so I’ll concede there. I’d even be willing to go the extra mile of yielding DB extra condition coverage (not simply damage) to allow the set to ensure its DoT’s. First hit applying vuln, the second bleeding, the third torment paired with fixed-distance movement would better-justify the skill’s use and utility for condi players and power players while not just giving D/D condi damage + evasion + cleansing (at the rate similar to what Diamond Skin will be offering) via one skill. The intent is to make the condi set carry more risk (like power) but have better damage potential in the end. Poison is the best DoT the thief has, and buffs in the AA could push out solid numbers, as intended with the incoming buff to MH dagger’s damage coefficient by around 30%.

As mentioned, moving the damage to Dancing Dagger (and potentially also buffing the number of bleed stacks/poison/whatever of conditions applied, to be discussed) is intentional in its behavior. Recall that I ask for DB’s lunge distance to be increased. I think such a change would make condi D/D get dynamism in its play mechanisms; you can DB in (or steal, but the engage here is critical as it allows D/D to engage without steal, similar to D/P), using the AA chain and Lotus Training for high damage while engaged, maybe apply one or two instances of Dancing Dagger while in the fray for damage and condition spread, and disengage via DB to let the conditions tick and manage an escape, following up with Dancing Dagger at a distance to sustain ticks and maintain pressure. It’s the same “essence” of Diving → CnD → backstab → HS → AA on power, just with different skills and a different feel, while also being balanced around different potential trait line configurations. As it is, there’s an over-dependence on Daredevil and Trickery overall, and evasion-D/D condi can just run Acro/Tr/DD because the gains from DA are miniscule, and power just runs DA/Tr/DD because it’s the best. Letting condi players get extra oomph from DA and normalizing the way the whole weapon set plays a little bit and bumping its utility to better rival D/P while increasing the skill cap on the set overall seems to cover most of the important issues the set has.

you create a problem when you add the conditions to dancing dagger. in order to apply with safety given there no evade in dancing dagger one would have to stay at range. this would again cut into the effectiveness of Impaling Lotus GM trait forcing you to close in to use it. You do not move in towards an enemy with a condition build unless you can avoid damage or you die quickly. D/d does NOT have the instant port away that is shadowstrike.

Why exactly is dealing damage from safety a good thing? Power builds have no such advantage, and this is an argument about a game intending to feature competitive PvP. If you want to kill your target or bunker a point, you should feel obligated to take a risk instead of just being unkillable while doing both. It’s the reason the whole PvP format is changing with the removal of defensive amulets, and why ranged damage is meant to deal lower damage than melee. Acro/Tr/DD on a condi build shouldn’t be dealing the potential damage DA/Tr/DD is, and shouldn’t be burst-capable like berserker/marauder power running DA/Tr/DD because it can’t deal damage while evading. Dancing Dagger has a quick cast and could allow for continual use of the AA chain for endurance regen with Dancing Dagger as its primary damage for a not-melee-but-not-quite-ranged build focusing on LT and Dancing Dagger for damage and control due to cripple uptime for better synergy with Acro/Tr/DD for a sustain-oriented build, or DA/Tr/DD for a damaging one via reworked DT.

P/D bleed coverage is intended to increase because as it currently stands, Sneak Attack’s damage is horrible since bleeding was nerfed fairly substantially. One Death Blossom offers 50% more damage due to its increased duration despite offering almost half the stacks. Force a few cleanses and DB spam is better damage than what Sneak Attack can offer due to its low duration on the bleeds. Since P/D can’t get the poison access D/D can with my proposal, however, the builds balance in burst potency by giving P/D more options while at range + an AoE applicator, and double-synergy in close range when using Daredevil’s Lotus Training paired with Shadow Strike to disengage, functionally equivalent to Death Blossom, except P/D needs more initiative to perform the same damage in different means, but carries a lower risk if played on the defensive, thus giving D/D a damage favor like melee should, and D/P may depend on SA as a trait line options over DA and certainly Acrobatics (though this depends on a few factors), giving each weapon set a more unique trait configuration and style of play while increasing the potency, utility, and skill caps of the sets.

I’m willing to work with people to enhance this design ideology. D/D condi as it is right now is not healthy to D/D’s use as a set, however. Much like D/P’s Shadow Shot problem, D/D can’t advance without taking a hit somewhere in order to gain compensation and overall improvements elsewhere.

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP. Alternatively, instead of blinding it could steal a boon if they move CiS back down to master tier.

It must be remembered off hand dagger is also used on p/d as off hand. 4 can not just help power sets. Too many are biased towards condition builds and just want to marginalize them. (not speaking about you in particular)

It also used in s/d and i do not think s/d needs another port to skill with condition removal. what purpose would #2 serve over #4 on s/d? so while your idea could work nicely for d/d p/d what of s/d? What are the ramifications of a port 2 and a port away on p/d?

Those making proposals for #4 off hand dagger have to understand there two other weaponsets to consider.

Jana suggested CC and i think that a great idea. Ie a PULl could help p/d d/d and s/d. Someone asked how s/d fights DH on point. Well here is one way. Cnd lowering INi cost AND a blind does work as this gives advantages over d/p in total ini spent to stealth.

back to 4 ,maintain the cripple and it can also help p/d (pull into caltrops field Cnd sneak attack shadowstrike) The dancing dagger will go on and hit those other enemies crippling them while the first one struck gets affected by the pull. Also great for breaking defiance bars.

Pulls are unreliable. Adding a pull to it would turn it into a Scorpion Wire making it overpowered when it did work. Giving a second port to S/D would give it the ability to chase better (assuming they ever fix the exploit on sword 2). For P/D it would give them the ability to control the range of the fight, keeping in mind that the new dancing dagger + rollover would cost 5 initiative.

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP. Alternatively, instead of blinding it could steal a boon if they move CiS back down to master tier.

It must be remembered off hand dagger is also used on p/d as off hand. 4 can not just help power sets. Too many are biased towards condition builds and just want to marginalize them. (not speaking about you in particular)

It also used in s/d and i do not think s/d needs another port to skill with condition removal. what purpose would #2 serve over #4 on s/d? so while your idea could work nicely for d/d p/d what of s/d? What are the ramifications of a port 2 and a port away on p/d?

Those making proposals for #4 off hand dagger have to understand there two other weaponsets to consider.

Jana suggested CC and i think that a great idea. Ie a PULl could help p/d d/d and s/d. Someone asked how s/d fights DH on point. Well here is one way. Cnd lowering INi cost AND a blind does work as this gives advantages over d/p in total ini spent to stealth.

back to 4 ,maintain the cripple and it can also help p/d (pull into caltrops field Cnd sneak attack shadowstrike) The dancing dagger will go on and hit those other enemies crippling them while the first one struck gets affected by the pull. Also great for breaking defiance bars.

Pulls are unreliable. Adding a pull to it would turn it into a Scorpion Wire making it overpowered when it did work. Giving a second port to S/D would give it the ability to chase better (assuming they ever fix the exploit on sword 2). For P/D it would give them the ability to control the range of the fight, keeping in mind that the new dancing dagger + rollover would cost 5 initiative.

Pulls are very reliable on engineer and dragonhunter. adding second ports to both s/d and p/d is not sound game design. Duplication of skills across each slot makes for rather boring gameplay. One might as well just drop a slot as both will compete for the same ini.

I have no problems with chasing in my own s/d build. That said if an issue the #2 range can be tweaked up slightly.

I suggest a port in and out with p/d condition with both inflicting conditions will be far more overpowering then a pull. Remember a pull will eat INI which competes for condition application and a pull can e neutralized by stability of which enemy players have plenty of. It will not be OP.

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP. Alternatively, instead of blinding it could steal a boon if they move CiS back down to master tier.

It must be remembered off hand dagger is also used on p/d as off hand. 4 can not just help power sets. Too many are biased towards condition builds and just want to marginalize them. (not speaking about you in particular)

It also used in s/d and i do not think s/d needs another port to skill with condition removal. what purpose would #2 serve over #4 on s/d? so while your idea could work nicely for d/d p/d what of s/d? What are the ramifications of a port 2 and a port away on p/d?

Those making proposals for #4 off hand dagger have to understand there two other weaponsets to consider.

Jana suggested CC and i think that a great idea. Ie a PULl could help p/d d/d and s/d. Someone asked how s/d fights DH on point. Well here is one way. Cnd lowering INi cost AND a blind does work as this gives advantages over d/p in total ini spent to stealth.

back to 4 ,maintain the cripple and it can also help p/d (pull into caltrops field Cnd sneak attack shadowstrike) The dancing dagger will go on and hit those other enemies crippling them while the first one struck gets affected by the pull. Also great for breaking defiance bars.

Pulls are unreliable. Adding a pull to it would turn it into a Scorpion Wire making it overpowered when it did work. Giving a second port to S/D would give it the ability to chase better (assuming they ever fix the exploit on sword 2). For P/D it would give them the ability to control the range of the fight, keeping in mind that the new dancing dagger + rollover would cost 5 initiative.

Pulls are very reliable on engineer and dragonhunter.

The issue is variability here. Scorpion wire, the grasps, path of scars, etc. offer completely different pull mechanics.

DH and Engi pulls ignore terrain and always pull regardless of circumstance unless terrain negation occurs at a very specific time. The rest, the target needs to basically be stationary on a level surface, otherwise they’ll whiff.

Giving the thief a DH/Engi pull would just be way too strong on anything over like 450 range, in which case, why bother?

I do hope they never intend to “fix” S/D. Frankly, I love the set has the ability to chase or engage and reset, but not both at the same time, which can only be determined before entering combat. It makes the set a very close rival to Shortbow for open-field combat and chase potential, and any alternatives to Shortbow are long-overdue/very nice to see, and increases the skill cap and makes the decision a very important one.

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP. Alternatively, instead of blinding it could steal a boon if they move CiS back down to master tier.

It must be remembered off hand dagger is also used on p/d as off hand. 4 can not just help power sets. Too many are biased towards condition builds and just want to marginalize them. (not speaking about you in particular)

It also used in s/d and i do not think s/d needs another port to skill with condition removal. what purpose would #2 serve over #4 on s/d? so while your idea could work nicely for d/d p/d what of s/d? What are the ramifications of a port 2 and a port away on p/d?

Those making proposals for #4 off hand dagger have to understand there two other weaponsets to consider.

Jana suggested CC and i think that a great idea. Ie a PULl could help p/d d/d and s/d. Someone asked how s/d fights DH on point. Well here is one way. Cnd lowering INi cost AND a blind does work as this gives advantages over d/p in total ini spent to stealth.

back to 4 ,maintain the cripple and it can also help p/d (pull into caltrops field Cnd sneak attack shadowstrike) The dancing dagger will go on and hit those other enemies crippling them while the first one struck gets affected by the pull. Also great for breaking defiance bars.

Pulls are unreliable. Adding a pull to it would turn it into a Scorpion Wire making it overpowered when it did work. Giving a second port to S/D would give it the ability to chase better (assuming they ever fix the exploit on sword 2). For P/D it would give them the ability to control the range of the fight, keeping in mind that the new dancing dagger + rollover would cost 5 initiative.

Pulls are very reliable on engineer and dragonhunter. adding second ports to both s/d and p/d is not sound game design. Duplication of skills across each slot makes for rather boring gameplay. One might as well just drop a slot as both will compete for the same ini.

I have no problems with chasing in my own s/d build. That said if an issue the #2 range can be tweaked up slightly.

I suggest a port in and out with p/d condition with both inflicting conditions will be far more overpowering then a pull. Remember a pull will eat INI which competes for condition application and a pull can e neutralized by stability of which enemy players have plenty of. It will not be OP.

On P/D it’s not redundant as it would function oppositely from shadowstrike, porting you to them and not away. While it seems redundant initially on S/D, the instant nature of the rollover would allow it to be used in conjuntion with Larcenous Strike and CnD helping it achieve a different goal when compared to infiltrators strike/return.