Guild Wars 2

Hi,

I’ve been running the above build for a little while now (0/0/0/30/20/20, pretty much full carrion gear), and it seems to be working really well for me in WvWvW, but I never hear anything good about it in the forums / youtube videos. All I see with D/D is burst builds, only condition builds I see are P/D (Which personally I’m not a fan of.)

Although I like my build and the ethos is to play how you want to play, I do feel like I’ve taken a complete wrong turn somewhere and am missing out on a lot of potential damage. I was dueling against my old guild leaders P/D build, with similar traits, and he was pwning me most of the time (although he is just a better player in general) and he was quite critical of my choice of weapons / traits (such as taking caltrops on dodge, and opting for D/D in general)

My usual rotation is steal/dodge to get close, LDB x3, dodge 3 times for caltrops (returned endurance from traits) Blinding powder, backstab, repeat if init will allow, stay in shadows (& heal while in stealth from traits) let the conditions tick for a few seconds & then HS when they’re low.

Is anyone else running a similar build, and if so is it working out for you? or has anyone else used this build and then moved on to something more effective, and if so how did you modify your play style / what benefits did you gain?

Thanks for your comments in advance.

I have used this build, in pick up pvp matches and to lvl my thief. I believe I used the exact same trait set up as well.

A problem I had with it is that you burn through all your skills and initiative very quickly, just to apply around ten stacks of bleeding. One condition removal and you will have done kitten damage while being left very vulnerable.

I can’t say much else, because after this build I went for a backstab HK build.

Having used both D/D and P/D condition builds for extended periods of time, i have learnt D/D is far more suitable for PvE whereas P/D is superior in PvP. Reasons for this is that death blossom has a very long bleed duration (with food it’s about 17 secs~), most classes will have some type of condition removal that will take effect easily within 17 secs, meaning the full potential damage of D/D is never fully executed. Whilst P/D has a duration of 7 secs~ which means more damage output in shorter periods of time.

Furthermore, D/D relies on being at melee range to apply bleeds, therefore, CC and general ranged classes will be relatively detrimental to your gameplay. P/D has the ability to apply heavy bleeds from kiting distance AND when the enemy gets close, a simple cloak and dagger → stealth → 5 bleeds. Ultimately turning their strengths into their weakness (if they’re melee).

D/D isn’t inept of course, it’s still viable if the enemy doesn’t know how to counter it. It’s even more viable in spvp + caltrops because the enemy is forced to stay within melee distance (node).

I should first say that I usually run around with my ranger friend so that influences my builds. I actually changed from a full berserker build to a all around build and now I’m using the 0/0/30/20/20 DD build.

With the proper runes/sigils/food you should be able to put out a ton of damage. At 100 damage per tick and a 12 stack of bleeds that’s 1200 a second, with 90% bleed duration and DB you’re looking at 17k damage just from 3 DB’s and remember that can be on up to 5 enemies. Now tack on caltrops(utility) and that alone can keep an 8-10 stack of bleeds on an enemy while they stay in it.

On top of all of this you can have 2600 armor, 20k hp, more dodges, longer stealth, stealing boons, vigor, and more heals.

D/D vs P/D is a tough one and it will come down to the fights you get into. D/D is better for small skirmishes because DB is an AOE and has a small evade on it. D/D’s weaknesses are that you need to be in melee range to attack and that it takes a bunch of initiative to use DB and if those bleeds get removed you can’t reapply right away. Also on the initiative front you can’t use C&D whenever you want since you’re using your initiative for bleeds. You also get a poison here too which can really help against healing targets. Daggers also make better use of caltrops imo since you can drop them right on your targets instead of needing to lead them in.

P/D on the other hand is stronger in a 1v1 especially against melee since you can kite them, you can constantly keep reapplying a bleed for no initiative cost, and have C&D when you need it. The weakness of P/D is you can’t apply your bleeds against multiple enemies, don’t have a poison without swapping, fights take longer due to having to stack bleeds longer and not having as many stacks, and you can really hurt yourself on any target that uses reflects.

As for caltrops on dodge, its a preference thing. They aren’t as good as the utility caltrops but a bleed is a bleed. In WvW they really can help with getting away. If you use bountiful theft that 15s vigor+dodge returns some endurance means you can do a whole lot of dodging, pretty good for d/d when you’re out of initiative and still fighting in melee range.

You’re other options are thrill of the crime(main option), but fury doesn’t help much unless you’re going for a precision condition build, 1 stack of might is meh, and swiftness is good but we already get that on dodge and stealth if you use the 50% speed in stealth trait. Flanking strikes doesn’t increase condition damage. Instinctual response is a good survivability trait but you can’t control when it goes off which often leads to wasting it. So caltrops really aren’t that bad of an option.

My tips for most fights would probably be spacing your DB out when you can. That way if they do condition removal it’s not all 3 at once. Wait until after your first DB to steal if you can, that way you get your 3 initiative back. Get Caltrops(utility) if you haven’t been using them, they apply 2 bleeds per second and cripple. I run with blinding powder, shadow refuge, and caltrops. The run speed signet is nice but I can get runspeed from dodging/stealth.

I haven’t really fought a P/D condition thief with my build, it’s probably a losing battle since a 1v1 is to the strengths of a P/D build, but here’s my thoughts.

1. Stealth into him(blinding powder), use shortbow #1 while in stealth to immoblize for 2s, switch weapons then DB.(if you use geomancy sigil he will now have 6 bleeds on him).

2. He will probably try to dodge, Pistol #3 away, or C&D dodge through him if you can to drop caltrops(if he doesn’t dodge his strike shouldn’t connect so no teleport/stealth and now he is bleeding more and crippled), steal(if he got away) and then DB if he hasn’t dodged again. Use the stealth you stole and repeat #1(minus BP).

3. Using the remove conditions when hit at 75% health trait is probably a good choice for this battle along with the remove conditions while in stealth trait. It gimps your initiative regen, but he is a condition build.

4. Try and use caltrops to keep him bleeding/crippled. They have a big radius(240, as big as your shortbow poison shot) and last 14s on a 30s cooldown. You can either fake running away to pull him into them, stealth then drop them on top of him, or just drop them and hope he hits them. If he uses shadow refuge then drop them in the circle. If he uses C&D a lot then drop them and stand in them as much as possible while trying to dodge it.

5. Save dagger storm to buy time for cooldowns to come up. If he is smart he will stop shooting, if he is dumb well you just did more damage to him and now your cooldown is up.

6. Time Stealths for when you have a decent number of bleed stacks on yourself to best make use of removals. If he stealths then dodge! If not be ready to remove stacks of bleeds!

7. If you cannot DB then switch to short bow and try to keep him out of stealth.

Remember it is an uphill battle. You want to stay melee but by doing so you give him easy access to C&D+5 bleed stacks.

I’d also point out that it’s unlikely a backstab thief would win this fight either. Backstab thieves are incredibly easy to defeat if you can survive the initial burst. With 20k hp and 2600 armor it’s not that hard. A single caltrop drop can ruin a backstab thiefs day, then it’s just poison their shadow refuge and watch them run. At 10k hp they drop incredibly fast.

D/D Condition Thief here.

The D/D Condition Thief excels in one primary area that other Thief builds lack in:
Zerg Surfing.

You have more AoE condition damage, which is longer lasting, and you never have to give yourself the reveal debuff. You don’t have to worry about enemies body blocking Sneak attack.

Pop a stealth skill, run into a zerg, and, right when you become revealed land a Death Blossom or two, during which time you will be dodging, and immediately Cloak and Dagger.

While Stealthed you can drop Caltrops and Dodgetrops.

Three seconds later you can either repeat a Death Blossom or two, or simply CnD again.

Sure, in a straight up 1v1 you’ll struggle to kill professions with high rates of condition removal such as Bunker D/D Eles, but you’re not typically easy to kill either.

You can solo camps, solo tower Lords, and get kills while inside of a zerg, without having to worry about that pest-of-a-reveal-debuff.

It’s quite fun.

Potent in small scale conflicts too. I have fought P/D condition Thieves. It’s quite humorous when they go for a CnD and eat a DB in the face, and lose 6 Ini due to my evasion.

Been thinking about get a condition set for my thief ever since i created it but was always affraid that dd condition build would lack to much damage in wvw.. How much does your bleeds tick for *? And do you feel that you actually Bring anything to the table in 20+vsXX ? Been playing S/D with pvt gear with Ruby orbs and also went D/D with same gear for abit..

I’m trying condition thief with heavy Shadow Arts.

5 Initiative gain from using my heal skill, 3 for stealing, 2 from 2 from cloak&dagger, and a few more for standing around in stealth equals major spamming. I’m just using this to stomp mobs, of course, so I don’t really know anything.

I feel like this would also be cool with P/D?

Hjulstad.6317:

Been thinking about get a condition set for my thief ever since i created it but was always affraid that dd condition build would lack to much damage in wvw.. How much does your bleeds tick for *? And do you feel that you actually Bring anything to the table in 20+vsXX ? Been playing S/D with pvt gear with Ruby orbs and also went D/D with same gear for abit..

Your bleeds will tick for 100-113 give or take depending on how much condition damage you stack. The key is getting condition duration or more importantly bleed duration. You can use 2x Centaur runes, 2x Krait runes, 2x Afllicted; each 2x bonus is 15% bleed duration, so 45% total. Then I use super veggie pizza for 36% condition duration and 1x Sigil of agony for 10% bleed duration. That’s 91% total, so death blossom bleeds will last for 19s. If you stack 12 bleeds for 19s that’s 22k+ damage.

In 20+ battles you definitely are useful, more useful than backstab thieves imo. Caltrops(utility) are a fairly big AOE, stack bleeds(yay!), and cripple. Get those things off at a choke point or inside of an enemy zerg and it really hampers them and does a good bit of damage. If you can keep an enemy in the caltrops, those caltrops alone can keep up a 10+ stack of bleeds. So they are a powerful area denial if people avoid them, they disrupt movement if they pass through them, and a killer if they sit in them. D/D DB can hit 5 targets so that’s some decent AOE in the middle of a zerg vs zerg battle and gives you evades while doing it. P/D is more single target condition but is incredibly hard to pin down and kill.

Condition builds also have far more survivability via more dodges, more toughness, more health, more condition removal, more utility, and depending on the build more mobility. If you want to do a crit build you need to go down the crit line because it’s hard to make up that crit and crit damage, that line doesn’t offer much utility or survivability options though. However in the condition damage line I get to remove enemy boons(invaluable) and give them to allies on top of giving out vigor(more dodges!). Utility and survivability in 1 trait!

Here is my build if you’re interested: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1h.h9.8.1h.h1k|5.1h.h9|1c.712.1h.712.1c.714.1h.714.1c.73.1h.73|211.0.211.0.311.0.1j.62.1h.62.8b.62|0.0.u34b.k69.k37|31.e|0.0.0.0.0|e

You can swap out the celestial stuff for carrion or the ascended gear with condition damage/vit/toughness/precision. I just prefer celestial since I do use all the stats.

Distaste.4801:

Caltrops(utility) are a fairly big AOE, stack bleeds(yay!), and cripple. Get those things off at a choke point or inside of an enemy zerg and it really hampers them and does a good bit of damage. If you can keep an enemy in the caltrops, those caltrops alone can keep up a 10+ stack of bleeds. So they are a powerful area denial if people avoid them, they disrupt movement if they pass through them, and a killer if they sit in them.

Wait wait, “real” caltrops build up bleed stacks while people stand in them?

What the Faust am I doing not taking it? Thanks for the tip. Here I was just using “dodgetrops” as I hear they’re called to help me kite veterans and such nonsense.

Hjulstad.6317:

Been thinking about get a condition set for my thief ever since i created it but was always affraid that dd condition build would lack to much damage in wvw.. How much does your bleeds tick for *? And do you feel that you actually Bring anything to the table in 20+vsXX ? Been playing S/D with pvt gear with Ruby orbs and also went D/D with same gear for abit..

I bring a lot to the table in Zergfights. Large amounts or AoE bleeds/cripples, stealth stomping, and Caltrops can single-handedly down an enemy player who’s chilling on siege in the back without me ever having to leave stealth.

Bleed tics vary based on Corruption stacks, might stacks, and food. I think my base with no buffs is around 107 per tic? I think it can go as high as 130ish.

It sounds really nice.. Im gonna give it a shot! Im so bored with Guardian Warrior and Ele atm its insane =(

Kazuhiro.5809:

Distaste.4801:

Caltrops(utility) are a fairly big AOE, stack bleeds(yay!), and cripple. Get those things off at a choke point or inside of an enemy zerg and it really hampers them and does a good bit of damage. If you can keep an enemy in the caltrops, those caltrops alone can keep up a 10+ stack of bleeds. So they are a powerful area denial if people avoid them, they disrupt movement if they pass through them, and a killer if they sit in them.

Wait wait, “real” caltrops build up bleed stacks while people stand in them?

What the Faust am I doing not taking it? Thanks for the tip. Here I was just using “dodgetrops” as I hear they’re called to help me kite veterans and such nonsense.

Yep they get applied if you stand in them. They also apply 2 stacks of bleeds per second. In PvE(without my food) I like to do DBx3 then drop those babies and stealth, kittenaikittennit, and you’ll see 25 stacks of bleeds for awhile. Makes you feel good inside!

My first toon since launch was a p/d thief and in wvw I know I’m a pain to kill. If I dodge roll a few times and with some procs of might my bleed ticks for about 151 or so. And with the heals from stealth I can be a force of reckoning

TakaEagle.9486:

Having used both D/D and P/D condition builds for extended periods of time, i have learnt D/D is far more suitable for PvE whereas P/D is superior in PvP. Reasons for this is that death blossom has a very long bleed duration (with food it’s about 17 secs~), most classes will have some type of condition removal that will take effect easily within 17 secs, meaning the full potential damage of D/D is never fully executed. Whilst P/D has a duration of 7 secs~ which means more damage output in shorter periods of time.

The bleed duration doesn’t effect how much they tick for, your 7 second bleed will do the same damage a second as a DD’s 17 second bleed, with the DD’s potential being higher if their not removed, if they are removed if there not removed in under 7 seconds they still do more damage, if they are removed under 7 seconds then so would the P/D ones so in total they’d do same damage, the difference is purely down to how easy it is to stack each one.

Personally I love D/D, with caltrops and a few blossoms you can hit 25 stacks regularly doing some potent semi-bursty dps

Also, it’s often times better to be more conservative with your initiative and cooldowns, since a condition Thief is going to want to draw out the conflict anyway.

When I fight Rangers, for instance, I start off with two DB’s and a CnD, followed by a couple more CnD’s until they drop Healing Spring. Only after Spring is dropped do I bother with using Caltrops and all-ining my initiative into a DB-DB-DB-Steal-CnD combo.

I’m such a spaz, got to learn to save that initiative, spam spam spam.

I’ve been using various D/D condition builds in WvW with my recently level 80 thief. D/D
evade caltrops is so fun and effective in solo/Orr farm PvE, I figured I’d keep rolling with that for WvW starters. It actually seems to have good utility in lots of WvW scenarios, the “zerg surfing” comment earlier in this thread made me LOL. I’m guessing the Dagger Storm bleed is aided by condition damage gear, that thing is hell on zergs, and the heal on attack thingy works great with it (unless some joker strips the stability or stuns it somehow, don’t know how they do that lol, some risen vets do it too).

Getting insta-killed by sneak-backstab sucks though, spiked before they even render, makes me wonder if I should just pick up full crit damage gear

I’m wondering what other weapons to use with D/D condition damage gear; I’ve tried pistol/dagger but it seemed really tough to execute the skill sequences, maybe too much for my skill level? I was rarely able to get off the pistol #1 from stealth. I guess shortbow would be logical but I’ve been using sword/pistol, the #2 skill is just insane – teleport AND condition removal – its hard to let that go.

I use D/D+SB, but other logical alternatives would be S/D (I feel that you would be better off keeping */D for Cloak and Dagger, but you gain access to Sword #2), or a second set of D/D, with the purpose of giving each Dagger set one Superior Sigil of Energy. Although, at that point, you’re almost better off running a full Unicorn build with Signet of Malice, Apothecary gear, and everything.

The fact that you can “stack up” ability casts just murders me.

“Oh kitten I used one death blossom too many, oh kitten now I’m gonna just use a dodge to get out, oh kitten now it’s telegraphing an attack and I have no dodges”

Kazuhiro.5809:

The fact that you can “stack up” ability casts just murders me.

“Oh kitten I used one death blossom too many, oh kitten now I’m gonna just use a dodge to get out, oh kitten now it’s telegraphing an attack and I have no dodges”

I have the ability queue problems too, most MMO’s have taught me to spam keys so breaking that habit is hard. They need to add a .5s slop timer so any ability presses in that .5s after an ability is used aren’t counted.

Distaste.4801:

Kazuhiro.5809:

The fact that you can “stack up” ability casts just murders me.

“Oh kitten I used one death blossom too many, oh kitten now I’m gonna just use a dodge to get out, oh kitten now it’s telegraphing an attack and I have no dodges”

I have the ability queue problems too, most MMO’s have taught me to spam keys so breaking that habit is hard. They need to add a .5s slop timer so any ability presses in that .5s after an ability is used aren’t counted.

It’s a favor to people who were hardcore Guild Wars players. Seriously, being able to cast something and then queue up the next thing was wonderful.

It’s playing OTHER games, like TF2 and Orcs Must Die 2, that trained me all wrong. My usual m.o. in TF2 is to hold down the trigger and focus on pointing my gun where it needs to be pointed (guess which classes I play). So I tend to hammer Death Blossom so as to burn through multiple Death Blossoms quickly and then move on to doing something else.

The problem is that I do this by HAMMERING it, and so when I want to stop, I have one queued.

I agree with your idea except that .5 seconds is pretty kitten long for some skills, and Death Blossom is one of them. The animation for Death Blossom is probably .5 seconds. Maybe have an option for disabling queueing entirely?