Guild Wars 2

Several friends and I recently had our kitten handed to us by a pair of bleed thieves using DB.
This isn’t a moan/nerf post, I was amazed by how effective it was at taking us down and our inability to damage them… Kudos to them :-)

I see lots of guys/gals talk about p/d and d/p builds but rarely hear mention of the bleed db build – and I can tell you, it is super effective (or was against my friends, myself and several others who foolishly tried to help) hehe

Nothing more amusing than to die, then some big-headed guy/gal comes along boasting about how he never dies to thieves and how we must be noob/pve’ers… then 5 minutes later he’s dead next to you

I love d/d conditions. There is absolutely no greater access to bleeding and cripple. The rate they get applied is astounding. The only problem with them is food and those with almost constant access to condition removal.

I started running this one when they screwed up P/D timing a while back. When they undid the nerf in PvE (where I felt it and was annoyed) I just stuck with it and started using it to PvP so I didn’t have to trait swap and worked around it.

It takes a lot of timing and quick reaction time to play effectively, but I discovered that when I played it right it was both more damage and more survivability than P/D. The tradeoff, of course, is that it’s much MUCH harder to play than P/D due to the need to time DB evades and manage initiative and condition clears.

This is why you don’t see quite as many D/D condi builds. The twitch guys often don’t like the slow damage and would rather get the upfront damage and less survivability that you’ll get from sword or D/P builds. The condi guys like being in that secure sweetspot that P/D gives you of having near total control of every fight.

However, if played perfectly, D/D evasion/condition is the single most survivable and difficult to counter thief build there is, but also the hardest build to get all the potential out of.

I retrofitted it to 30 trickery after the changes to the GM trait and the buff to Signet of Malice and I just can’t play anything else in GW2 and have fun any more. It just feels like anything else is “going through the motions” in comparison to perfectly timed DB, Steal interrupts, dodgetrops positioning, and splitsecond decisions on when to hit 3 or use 2 to close to get a full 3 strikes again.

I would like to see a thief who can play d/d bleed good, because ive never seen one.

Budchgon.2108:

Several friends and I recently had our kitten handed to us by a pair of bleed thieves using DB.
This isn’t a moan/nerf post, I was amazed by how effective it was at taking us down and our inability to damage them… Kudos to them :-)

I see lots of guys/gals talk about p/d and d/p builds but rarely hear mention of the bleed db build – and I can tell you, it is super effective (or was against my friends, myself and several others who foolishly tried to help) hehe

Nothing more amusing than to die, then some big-headed guy/gal comes along boasting about how he never dies to thieves and how we must be noob/pve’ers… then 5 minutes later he’s dead next to you

Every1 seems to underestimate dubble DD condi builds .
tho was greater before the condi meta came along . Now every character has multiple condi removals with them.
And necro staff / engy grenade / Hammer war( since they gotn heal boost), will all eat you alive …
but then again they are the best aoe spammers against close combat characters.
a good retaliation/burn guard will be hard to deal with to.

BUT a good DD condi thief will more or less always get away before they can kill him.
makes it ideal for Spvp hotjoin , for Tpvp you need to build a team around the DD thief ( and that is just not gone happen i think )

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see a thief who can play d/d bleed good, because ive never seen one.

check out my vids on youtube

gw2 dodger build i got 3 vids of it posted
( they are from a while ago and now its even more viable then at that period )

here’s the last vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kjN4Swgn3k

ps if the last vid doesnst fully stream i cant help it seems youtube messed up the last vid somehow. ( seems to cut off at 21 secs)

I wish I hadn’t seen one :-P
Sadly I did and got a one-way ticket back to the waypoint hehe

The problem with d/d deathblossom is that db has a 3/4s cast time and 1/2s evade frame. Aka, you are vulnerable for 1/4s without any way to dodge the incoming attack. While this is ok vs the average player, against a high level player you can’t do a thing to them, and they can hit you without you being able to do anything. That’s why in high level tournament play the build is nonexistent. Not to mention the current condi spam meta that forces everyone to bring at least 1, if not many, condi removals. The final problem is the lack of buffer conditions on the set. Aka, a class with constant single condi removal will be nigh invincible (like d/x backstab builds with condi clear in stealth).

D/D is the way to go!

I’ve never been killed by one, actually I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a single one lol. I’m curious now though.

I imagine it would be like fighting a champion swashbuckler aesther blade.

Deathblossom spam vs. risen zerg. Try it.

Craig.2403:

The problem with d/d deathblossom is that db has a 3/4s cast time and 1/2s evade frame. Aka, you are vulnerable for 1/4s without any way to dodge the incoming attack. While this is ok vs the average player, against a high level player you can’t do a thing to them, and they can hit you without you being able to do anything.

This is about as untrue a statement as I have heard. It’s like saying hammer warriors are gimpy because you can be poked during the aftercast/precast of the stuns and thus they’re useless builds.

A solid DB thief doesn’t play offensive. It’s not a burst build and it can’t play burst. If you see someone chaining DB on an aware opponent with a cooldown advantage you’re watching a poor DB thief. Lots of these are left over from when the skill was full-evade and you COULD just hit 3 until your init was out.

A decent DB thief uses autos to keep poison up, and plays extremely defensively, using DB and dodgetrops to punish enemy action and control the fight.

You don’t see it in high level play because the build used to have 2 cover conditions on upkeep (poison and weakness) and since the lotus poison nerf it only has one (poison) and because tournament teams are often much more support oriented. The thief has little passive support to offer his team, and is often passed over in favor of someone who can hand out boons without working extra to do so. Additionally, it’s an extremely high skillcap build to play efficiently, requiring extreme amounts of situational awareness and reflexive timing to utilize properly. People don’t like to play hard builds in PvP for the most part because they simply experience lower win rates on average compared to something that takes less effort.

PopeUrban.2578:

Craig.2403:

The problem with d/d deathblossom is that db has a 3/4s cast time and 1/2s evade frame. Aka, you are vulnerable for 1/4s without any way to dodge the incoming attack. While this is ok vs the average player, against a high level player you can’t do a thing to them, and they can hit you without you being able to do anything.

This is about as untrue a statement as I have heard. It’s like saying hammer warriors are gimpy because you can be poked during the aftercast/precast of the stuns and thus they’re useless builds.

A solid DB thief doesn’t play offensive. It’s not a burst build and it can’t play burst. If you see someone chaining DB on an aware opponent with a cooldown advantage you’re watching a poor DB thief. Lots of these are left over from when the skill was full-evade and you COULD just hit 3 until your init was out.

A decent DB thief uses autos to keep poison up, and plays extremely defensively, using DB and dodgetrops to punish enemy action and control the fight.

You don’t see it in high level play because the build used to have 2 cover conditions on upkeep (poison and weakness) and since the lotus poison nerf it only has one (poison) and because tournament teams are often much more support oriented. The thief has little passive support to offer his team, and is often passed over in favor of someone who can hand out boons without working extra to do so. Additionally, it’s an extremely high skillcap build to play efficiently, requiring extreme amounts of situational awareness and reflexive timing to utilize properly. People don’t like to play hard builds in PvP for the most part because they simply experience lower win rates on average compared to something that takes less effort.

Believe what you want, but the truth is db builds are more pve oriented to play to maximum effectiveness. Any good player will have no trouble staying out of dodgetrops/caltrops, and can easily avoid db and retaliate during the non-evade frame cast time. and it’s not anything like hammer warriors, because hammer warriors can evade out of the cast to dodge, while a db locks you into the animation until the end of the cast, in which it leaves you vulnerable to a short burst. It is very similar to s/d, just that s/d has higher damage and boon steals, allowing you to take down bunkers, which is the point of an evade oriented build. Db, however, has only condis to take down the bunkers, which is terrible in this condi heavy meta.

PopeUrban.2578:

Craig.2403:

The problem with d/d deathblossom is that db has a 3/4s cast time and 1/2s evade frame. Aka, you are vulnerable for 1/4s without any way to dodge the incoming attack. While this is ok vs the average player, against a high level player you can’t do a thing to them, and they can hit you without you being able to do anything.

This is about as untrue a statement as I have heard. It’s like saying hammer warriors are gimpy because you can be poked during the aftercast/precast of the stuns and thus they’re useless builds.

A solid DB thief doesn’t play offensive. It’s not a burst build and it can’t play burst. If you see someone chaining DB on an aware opponent with a cooldown advantage you’re watching a poor DB thief. Lots of these are left over from when the skill was full-evade and you COULD just hit 3 until your init was out.

A decent DB thief uses autos to keep poison up, and plays extremely defensively, using DB and dodgetrops to punish enemy action and control the fight.

You don’t see it in high level play because the build used to have 2 cover conditions on upkeep (poison and weakness) and since the lotus poison nerf it only has one (poison) and because tournament teams are often much more support oriented. The thief has little passive support to offer his team, and is often passed over in favor of someone who can hand out boons without working extra to do so. Additionally, it’s an extremely high skillcap build to play efficiently, requiring extreme amounts of situational awareness and reflexive timing to utilize properly. People don’t like to play hard builds in PvP for the most part because they simply experience lower win rates on average compared to something that takes less effort.

I love playing my d/d condition build in sPvP. Sometimes I’ll get done playing for hours on end and everyone will tell me how much they’ll miss my caltrops appearing out of thin air, or how I can keep an entire team at one point for quite some time — and if they’re really stupid, the entire match.

You’re correct in your assumption that DB builds take a lot of effort and finesse to play effectively, and I appreciate that. Most people think it’s a, “HUEHUE SPAM.3 NO SKILL LAWLZ NOOB” crutch build which at times I must admit gets to me, but compared to a p/d condition thief or a d/x burst thief, even a s/d evade thief: it’s extremely hard to pull off. I ended up mastering my build further than the thief who gave it to me, according to a few sources, and it’s payed off well.

Budchgon.2108:

Several friends and I recently had our kitten handed to us by a pair of bleed thieves using DB.
This isn’t a moan/nerf post, I was amazed by how effective it was at taking us down and our inability to damage them… Kudos to them :-)

I see lots of guys/gals talk about p/d and d/p builds but rarely hear mention of the bleed db build – and I can tell you, it is super effective (or was against my friends, myself and several others who foolishly tried to help) hehe

Nothing more amusing than to die, then some big-headed guy/gal comes along boasting about how he never dies to thieves and how we must be noob/pve’ers… then 5 minutes later he’s dead next to you

DB is OP, plz nerf ! thanx !
it should give only 1 bleed and NO evasion
3 bleed is too much for my condi removals skills !

Caltrops→Scorpion Wire→DB DB DB DB

Maximum bleed.

I’ve been running the below build with my thief since day 1 pretty much. Works for both sPvP and PVE (i swap the basilisk out for the later) ….

Let me say, i feel like a lawnmower just bleeding things down! At 9 – 12 stacks of the bleed (which goes up really quickly) you see the healthbars literally melting …

It generally goes like this -

1. Apply basilisk
2. Stack bleeds as much as possible during the stun
3. Stealth
4. Blind
5. Pop skale
6. More DB + Skale
7. Dodge / roll for caltraps if they are chasing or dancing dagger if they are running
7. Swap to pistol for kite (as torment is now up also)

At this point the target is either in bad shape and trying to run, or is hurting and trying to chase. Either way, they have torment up and are either caltraped or dancing dagger

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAoY6alcmKN3cy9E/5EB3Dna0m6p4rkVThMbJA-TsAgyEOpcy5kxJpTWnGBsAZHysEA

Master Ketsu.4569:

Caltrops->Scorpion Wire->DB DB DB DB

Maximum bleed.

Bleed stack removed instantly by passive after 1 second. All your initiative and 2 utilities gone for a total of about 3k damage. /cry /quit

i fought several guys with these builds, and i can tell you they are a pain.

Craig.2403:

The problem with d/d deathblossom is that db has a 3/4s cast time and 1/2s evade frame. Aka, you are vulnerable for 1/4s without any way to dodge the incoming attack. While this is ok vs the average player, against a high level player you can’t do a thing to them, and they can hit you without you being able to do anything. That’s why in high level tournament play the build is nonexistent. Not to mention the current condi spam meta that forces everyone to bring at least 1, if not many, condi removals. The final problem is the lack of buffer conditions on the set. Aka, a class with constant single condi removal will be nigh invincible (like d/x backstab builds with condi clear in stealth).

Actually, it’s only a 1/4s evade time with a 1/2s channeling time + who knows how much aftercast delay. Still, the problem of D/D condition is exactly that : once your opponents know the very easy window of opportunity to hit you, you start losing. The build is gimmicky and wins by unfamiliarity mostly.

Hint : CC/damage the thief when he lands from Death Blossom.

Although fun to run, it’s only good in PVE open world (and not so much after caltrops nerf).

Yeah, evade on LDB is extremly unreliable. Multiple times, I got stunned mid-air while channeling it. Not to mention it’s very easy to waste it when somebody simply moves, and it’s entirely countered by lowest condition removal tools.
It needs to have poison on pair with bleed, and evade for full time of channeling. Otherwise, not worth effort. Only good against clueless people, but against them everything is sufficient.

DD Thief vs GS Guardian with 3.5k Armor/3.8k Attack = dead DD Thief.

:)

Littlefeather.8623:

DD Thief vs GS Guardian with 3.5k Armor/3.8k Attack = dead DD Thief.

:)

Not really. Guardians melt to my D/D condition build, especially zerker guardians.

@Viking Jorun
If the guardian has half a brain, they will cleanse that bleed before 5 seconds expire, pull you while you are rooted in LDB animation, and at the end lock in line of warding. There exist no viable condition build with only bleeds, and our venoms are a big joke.
Also, there exist no viable build using a single button, and as LDB thief you are limited only to LDB. You can try using caltrops (30 sec cooldown), so you have 2 whooping buttons, but only mobs stay in them for over 5 seconds. It just cannot work against a competitive player, no matter how hard you try.

About bunker guardian, you won’t even touch them.

High level tournament play (or any sort of high level pap) is about counterplay to the counterplay, aka, being one step ahead of your opponent. d/d deathblossom spam doesn’t allow for that, as the counterplay to d/d db spam can’t be counterplayed due to the locked animation. If that went over your head, think of it as the fact that with d/d death blossom spam you can’t react to the opponent reacting to you. If that went over your head… give up.
Compare this to s/d: s/d has Flanking strike, a 1/2s evade and 1/2s cast, so the only vulnerable time is the aftercast, which is minimal and can be eliminated with a dodge if need be. If you are safe and don’t need to dodge, you can continue with larcenous strike and be vulnerable for 1/2s, allowing counterplay that is counterplayable. In other words, the difference between s/d and d/d is 2 things: damage type (condition vs power) and counterplay (what this entire post has been about). As condition on d/d is only bleed, and the occasional cripple or poison, the bleed is easily cured and dealt with through only moderate condition removal, thus the damage type is not a viable reason to use it, and s/d is better for counterplay, thus s/d is the better weaponset for high level pvp

Thief Condi Builds are fun to play but I haven’t found a viable one for tPvP as of yet. You give up too many Thief advantages and you are just not as good as a condition bomb than lets say a necro. Although playing around with balthasar runes and apply burning when you are just not meant to do that is fun as hell.

Thieves suffer from initiative system. That means, in some builds* there will be 1-3 abilities which are not worth spending initiative at all. Also, all abilities have “spam tax”, which lower their effectiveness -in case- you would spam them.

• List of abilities I wouldn’t use in certain builds.
  power:
  - D/D – leaping death blossom, dancing dagger
  - S/P – just consumes too much ini, and you can choose between black powder (dealing zero damage) or pistol whip (getting melted)
  - P/P – body shot (even if it’s supposed to help, not wort using over unload), black powder (just for stomping)
  - S/D – dancing dagger
  condi:
  - D/D – cloak and dagger, dancing dagger, heartseeker almost never used
  - P/D – body shot, shadow strike, dancing dagger (notice how cloak and dagger negates shadow strike – using only #1 and #5, winner!)

So, using these abilities in certain builds hurt more yourself than your enemy. Good weapon sets are S/D (only power), D/P (only power) and shortbow (hybrid, but rather full power).

The only suggestion I have would be removing this initiative system, change initiative to death-shroud-like stealth mode, buffing all of the abilities and giving them cooldowns. But considering amounts of work to do, this will never happen.

Dagins.5163:

Thieves suffer from initiative system. That means, in some builds* there will be 1-3 abilities which are not worth spending initiative at all. Also, all abilities have “spam tax”, which lower their effectiveness -in case- you would spam them.

• List of abilities I wouldn’t use in certain builds.
  power:
  - D/D – leaping death blossom, dancing dagger
  - S/P – just consumes too much ini, and you can choose between black powder (dealing zero damage) or pistol whip (getting melted)
  - P/P – body shot (even if it’s supposed to help, not wort using over unload), black powder (just for stomping)
  - S/D – dancing dagger
  condi:
  - D/D – cloak and dagger, dancing dagger, heartseeker almost never used
  - P/D – body shot, shadow strike, dancing dagger (notice how cloak and dagger negates shadow strike – using only #1 and #5, winner!)

So, using these abilities in certain builds hurt more yourself than your enemy. Good weapon sets are S/D (only power), D/P (only power) and shortbow (hybrid, but rather full power).

The only suggestion I have would be removing this initiative system, change initiative to death-shroud-like stealth mode, buffing all of the abilities and giving them cooldowns. But considering amounts of work to do, this will never happen.

There’s always situations to use those. Not using them ever just hurts you.

Yes, there might be some very rare occasions when some of them would be useful, but in 99% of fights they are just waste of ini, decreasing either your damage output or defense.

Meanwhile, other classes use their versions of “body shot” to knock us back, improved “dancing dagger” to root and apply DoT, or fixed version of “leaping death blossom” with added poison and burning. All of these things are on cd of like 7-15 seconds. I would trade it anytime.

Can you imagine greatsword warrior, who must choose between using 100blades or whirlwind attack? I can’t, but this is how S/P thief looks like.

PS: the above skills might not exist, but this is how they would look like if we had cooldowns instad of ini, without “spam tax”.

Initiative is fine, you make a choice on which skill you use. Personally I use dancing dagger in S/D kit a lot, possibly the most.

Excalibur.9748:

Initiative is fine, you make a choice on which skill you use. Personally I use dancing dagger in S/D kit a lot, possibly the most.

1. The problem is, initiative system GREATLY reduces the number of choices.
2. Then I want to see you dueling against a warrior (or pretty much any class), using dancing dagger for 400 damage and 3 second cripple. It costs 3 ini, and it means you can’t use shadow return to escape from stun combo and cleanse one condition. And if you want to stay back and casually throw these scissors at a group of people – just use short bow’s auto attack.

This ability had it’s use before it got its damage nerfed by 50% and cripple by 2 seconds. Personally, I used it a lot against rangers for high damage and 10 sec cripple.
Now, you can only use it to finish that dude who just attempted to run away from you with 1 hp left, while your infiltrator’s strike is already activated, and weapon swap is on cd.

Dagins.5163:

Excalibur.9748:

Initiative is fine, you make a choice on which skill you use. Personally I use dancing dagger in S/D kit a lot, possibly the most.

1. The problem is, initiative system GREATLY reduces the number of choices.
2. Then I want to see you dueling against a warrior (or pretty much any class), using dancing dagger for 400 damage and 3 second cripple. It costs 3 ini, and it means you can’t use shadow return to escape from stun combo and cleanse one condition. And if you want to stay back and casually throw these scissors at a group of people – just use short bow’s auto attack.

This ability had it’s use before it got its damage nerfed by 50% and cripple by 2 seconds. Personally, I used it a lot against rangers for high damage and 10 sec cripple.
Now, you can only use it to finish that dude who just attempted to run away from you with 1 hp left, while your infiltrator’s strike is already activated, and weapon swap is on cd.

Well I have 66% condition duration (30 in DA and eating super veggie pizza always in WvW) so my dancing daggers cripple for 8.5seconds (5seconds I guess since it’s bugged) and when I spam this, it basically screws over anyone in an Xv1 situation. Roaming isn’t really that profitable, I move with the zerg when I can especially since I need ascended mats. I also run sigil of earth and the trait to stack on vulnerability so this makes it extremely unlikely they can clear my cripples. Considering I can consistently stack 4 conditions (weakness, vulnerability, bleed, cripple not counting immobilize from sword #2 and panic strike and poison from mug)

Also the dancing dagger spam screws over warriors the most since they rely on disengaging to regen their HP with that cheap signet of theirs. Between AA cripple and DD cripple you can keep on laying that damage on them to overcome their regen. So technically I don’t see a problem with spamming DD to fight warrior, since that’s what I do anyways but ofcourse you need to have enough ini for FS/LS and shadow return.

I don’t know what build you have, but anybody, even without any sustain, can regenerate from 400 dancing daggers. Also, warriors usually have -70% cripple duration (food and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dogged_March), not to mention free 3 seconds of regeneration to entirely outheal it…

Dagins.5163:

I don’t know what build you have, but anybody, even without any sustain, can regenerate from 400 dancing daggers. Also, warriors usually have -70% cripple duration (food and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dogged_March), not to mention free 3 seconds of regeneration to entirely outheal it…

You don’t use DD to do damage, it’s there for the cripple. Considering FS/LS does about the same damage as AA, it doesn’t make sense to spam it when you don’t need to. DD is there to ensure every single hit of my auto attack chain connects.

Warriors usually have 98% cripple duration resistance (just gonna assume dogged march + melandru runes + bowl of lemongrass soup as it’s meta and it’s good to assume the worst case) but, then 98-66 = 32% cripple resistance left, still plenty enough duration left to stack on the cripple that they can’t cleanse to make sure I connect every single hit of my auto attack chain.

Dogged march has 10s icd so it doesn’t really matter if it procs.

Dogged march is a passive -33% condition duration. The CD is just for activating a regen effect.

Also, Warrior Sword #2 ability ignores cripple/chilled and works as an awesome escape.

stof.9341:

Dogged march is a passive -33% condition duration. The CD is just for activating a regen effect.

Also, Warrior Sword #2 ability ignores cripple/chilled and works as an awesome escape.

Yea the 10s icd is just for the regen, so it’s not like they can have constant regen from it.

Sword isn’t really meta anyways. The meta is mace/shield + greatsword. True they can use sword + greatsword for maximum mobility but that’s probably harder to play since without skullcrack good luck landing the 100b.

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see a thief who can play d/d bleed good, because ive never seen one.

You clearly haven’t played much. Played well this spec is incredible, at least in PvP.

style.6173:

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see a thief who can play d/d bleed good, because ive never seen one.

You clearly haven’t played much. Played well this spec is incredible, at least in PvP.

You clearly have not played much vs good players. Played vs good players this spec is terrible, at least in PvP.

Craig.2403:

style.6173:

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see a thief who can play d/d bleed good, because ive never seen one.

You clearly haven’t played much. Played well this spec is incredible, at least in PvP.

You clearly have not played much vs good players. Played vs good players this spec is terrible, at least in PvP.

I agree. I’m not sure what the infatuation is with this spec in PvP.

You have 1 UND ONLY ONE condition that does any damage – Bleed. It’s so ridiculously easy for any class in the current meta to cleanse 1 condition that it’s laughable. If venoms were in a better place, it might be viable…but they aren’t, so it isn’t.

The last time I fought a D/D DB thief, I tried explaining this to him. When he called me a noob, I stopped fighting, let him go nuts with his DB, cleansed his bleeds (essentially turning 15 initiative into roughly 3k damage), then demolished him without any effort.

If you’re trying to rely on your AA for filler damage, it’s a losing proposition – you’re either running Rabid/Shaman amulet and doing completely awful direct damage, or Carrion amulet and the lack of toughness leaves you taking too much damage during your AA chain(which still isn’t doing good damage, just good in comparison to the base power you’d be running with rabid/shaman) – you’re 100% reliant on 1 kind of kittenty skill to do All of your damage, which is again, rather easily cleansed.

It’s a joke spec – entirely predictable, entirely counter-able, entirely reliant on 1 weaponskill out of 5.

evilapprentice.6379:

Craig.2403:

style.6173:

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see a thief who can play d/d bleed good, because ive never seen one.

You clearly haven’t played much. Played well this spec is incredible, at least in PvP.

You clearly have not played much vs good players. Played vs good players this spec is terrible, at least in PvP.

I agree. I’m not sure what the infatuation is with this spec in PvP.

You have 1 UND ONLY ONE condition that does any damage – Bleed. It’s so ridiculously easy for any class in the current meta to cleanse 1 condition that it’s laughable. If venoms were in a better place, it might be viable…but they aren’t, so it isn’t.

The last time I fought a D/D DB thief, I tried explaining this to him. When he called me a noob, I stopped fighting, let him go nuts with his DB, cleansed his bleeds (essentially turning 15 initiative into roughly 3k damage), then demolished him without any effort.

If you’re trying to rely on your AA for filler damage, it’s a losing proposition – you’re either running Rabid/Shaman amulet and doing completely awful direct damage, or Carrion amulet and the lack of toughness leaves you taking too much damage during your AA chain(which still isn’t doing good damage, just good in comparison to the base power you’d be running with rabid/shaman) – you’re 100% reliant on 1 kind of kittenty skill to do All of your damage, which is again, rather easily cleansed.

It’s a joke spec – entirely predictable, entirely counter-able, entirely reliant on 1 weaponskill out of 5.

first of i run Dubble D/D 5/0/5/30/30 build. as my main build in Spvp

1) Sure you can cleanse the bleeds , to bad in my rotation you’ll have at least 3 bleeds up 2-3 secs after you cleans it
2) I got poison/ cripple / bleeds that will be “spammed” on the target , that looks like 3 condi’s to me instead of 1.
3) I’m build for high condi damage / i got a very high evade uptime( that spreads bleeds and cripple pools)/ and i got a realy good ini recovery) .
4) I can still dish out good burst damage with elite , and Hs still hits for around 2k to finish folks off. ( for those peski condi cleansing maniacs )
5) Its not meant to be a killer,
- Its a support build that can dish out good damage,
- It has great survivability,
- It can hold multiple targets busy at a point and can bunker on points for a good amount of time ( for a thief that is )

evilapprentice.6379:

The last time I fought a D/D DB thief, I tried explaining this to him. When he called me a noob, I stopped fighting, let him go nuts with his DB, cleansed his bleeds (essentially turning 15 initiative into roughly 3k damage), then demolished him without any effort.

So, are you sure you didn’t just own a noob, rather than owning a D/D spec? This is nothing but a reversal of the same fallacy you just piled on to.

Void.4239:

evilapprentice.6379:

Craig.2403:

style.6173:

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see a thief who can play d/d bleed good, because ive never seen one.

You clearly haven’t played much. Played well this spec is incredible, at least in PvP.

You clearly have not played much vs good players. Played vs good players this spec is terrible, at least in PvP.

I agree. I’m not sure what the infatuation is with this spec in PvP.

You have 1 UND ONLY ONE condition that does any damage – Bleed. It’s so ridiculously easy for any class in the current meta to cleanse 1 condition that it’s laughable. If venoms were in a better place, it might be viable…but they aren’t, so it isn’t.

The last time I fought a D/D DB thief, I tried explaining this to him. When he called me a noob, I stopped fighting, let him go nuts with his DB, cleansed his bleeds (essentially turning 15 initiative into roughly 3k damage), then demolished him without any effort.

If you’re trying to rely on your AA for filler damage, it’s a losing proposition – you’re either running Rabid/Shaman amulet and doing completely awful direct damage, or Carrion amulet and the lack of toughness leaves you taking too much damage during your AA chain(which still isn’t doing good damage, just good in comparison to the base power you’d be running with rabid/shaman) – you’re 100% reliant on 1 kind of kittenty skill to do All of your damage, which is again, rather easily cleansed.

It’s a joke spec – entirely predictable, entirely counter-able, entirely reliant on 1 weaponskill out of 5.

first of i run Dubble D/D 5/0/5/30/30 build. as my main build in Spvp

1) Sure you can cleanse the bleeds , to bad in my rotation you’ll have at least 3 bleeds up 2-3 secs after you cleans it
2) I got poison/ cripple / bleeds that will be “spammed” on the target , that looks like 3 condi’s to me instead of 1.
3) I’m build for high condi damage / i got a very high evade uptime( that spreads bleeds and cripple pools)/ and i got a realy good ini recovery) .
4) I can still dish out good burst damage with elite , and Hs still hits for around 2k to finish folks off. ( for those peski condi cleansing maniacs )
5) Its not meant to be a killer,
- Its a support build that can dish out good damage,
- It has great survivability,
- It can hold multiple targets busy at a point and can bunker on points for a good amount of time ( for a thief that is )

1) And then I’ll just cleanse them again – it’s a condition heavy meta, cleanses abound.
2) You’ve got Bleeds. You’ve got cripple if I’m dumb enough to stand in caltrops (hint, no one worth fighting is), and Poison if you can complete your AA chain – most specs will punish you for getting to the end of your AA chain.
3)DB is a really, really kittenty evade – I can time it so that I always hit you at the end of your DB, before you have control back over your character (so you can’t use a dodge) – this kills the spec.
4) “Hits folks for 2k” is a pointless anecdote. Can you tell me what armor those targets were at? What’s your total power, crit chance, and crit damage? What elite are you using for “good burst”? I’m willing to bet any other spec would do it better
5) There are better builds with support and survivability in mind, which can also kill people. I’ve run builds that do a much better job Psuedo-bunkering.

I’m glad you have fun with the spec. Run what you like, run what you have fun with. Doesn’t change the fact that DB is a one trick pony with no where to go in real PvP.

Interceptor.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

The last time I fought a D/D DB thief, I tried explaining this to him. When he called me a noob, I stopped fighting, let him go nuts with his DB, cleansed his bleeds (essentially turning 15 initiative into roughly 3k damage), then demolished him without any effort.

So, are you sure you didn’t just own a noob, rather than owning a D/D spec? This is nothing but a reversal of the same fallacy you just piled on to.

The next paragraph (which you didn’t quote) points out that his skill level didn’t matter – His choices were Spam DB, watch me cleanse the bleeds and own him, or attempt to keep 3-6 bleeds on me and use AA as filler, which still would have resulted in him losing the fight (albeit more slowly).

Void.4239:

evilapprentice.6379:

Craig.2403:

style.6173:

Rissou.7213:

I would like to see a thief who can play d/d bleed good, because ive never seen one.

You clearly haven’t played much. Played well this spec is incredible, at least in PvP.

You clearly have not played much vs good players. Played vs good players this spec is terrible, at least in PvP.

I agree. I’m not sure what the infatuation is with this spec in PvP.

You have 1 UND ONLY ONE condition that does any damage – Bleed. It’s so ridiculously easy for any class in the current meta to cleanse 1 condition that it’s laughable. If venoms were in a better place, it might be viable…but they aren’t, so it isn’t.

The last time I fought a D/D DB thief, I tried explaining this to him. When he called me a noob, I stopped fighting, let him go nuts with his DB, cleansed his bleeds (essentially turning 15 initiative into roughly 3k damage), then demolished him without any effort.

If you’re trying to rely on your AA for filler damage, it’s a losing proposition – you’re either running Rabid/Shaman amulet and doing completely awful direct damage, or Carrion amulet and the lack of toughness leaves you taking too much damage during your AA chain(which still isn’t doing good damage, just good in comparison to the base power you’d be running with rabid/shaman) – you’re 100% reliant on 1 kind of kittenty skill to do All of your damage, which is again, rather easily cleansed.

It’s a joke spec – entirely predictable, entirely counter-able, entirely reliant on 1 weaponskill out of 5.

first of i run Dubble D/D 5/0/5/30/30 build. as my main build in Spvp

1) Sure you can cleanse the bleeds , to bad in my rotation you’ll have at least 3 bleeds up 2-3 secs after you cleans it
2) I got poison/ cripple / bleeds that will be “spammed” on the target , that looks like 3 condi’s to me instead of 1.
3) I’m build for high condi damage / i got a very high evade uptime( that spreads bleeds and cripple pools)/ and i got a realy good ini recovery) .
4) I can still dish out good burst damage with elite , and Hs still hits for around 2k to finish folks off. ( for those peski condi cleansing maniacs )
5) Its not meant to be a killer,
- Its a support build that can dish out good damage,
- It has great survivability,
- It can hold multiple targets busy at a point and can bunker on points for a good amount of time ( for a thief that is )

1. In the current meta any condi class can put way more than 3 bleeds in 3 seconds. This is nothing new and still easily laughed at.
2. Oh no! 3 conditions, of which only 2 are damaging… and those two will go really fast in the current condi meta.
3. You have less than 50% evade uptime… that’s not “very high” compared to most evade builds. And, the evade is not the full cast, so it’s very easy for you to get stunned or hit mid-cast and have nothing to do about it. A gc can drop you in the course of 2 db if he’s good enough.
4. What’s “good burst,” and with which elite? I assume dagger storm, as that would be the only “burst” elite, and it isn’t good burst… it applies bleed and cripple, and such low amounts that it does almost nothing. In terms of direct damage… you’re running a condi build, nothing has good direct damage burst on a condi build.
5. It’s not a good survivor either, so pick what you want. Are you a troll build for bad players? Cause that doesn’t work well in any high level play. And support? How on earth do you support? Steal on a 21s cool down that applies a bunch of boons that will get ripped or converted to condis in less than 3s? That doesn’t seem like good support to me.
-not a viable support build and very minimal damage in the current meta
-It has terrible survivability vs any good players, or in a team fight
-less than 50% evade uptime is not nearly long enough to hold people on a point for a while. Even assuming you have high toughness/vitality, you will drop fast cause you’re a thief, and you drop easily due to the easily noticed and countered evade frames, and how easy it is to counter the build just by knowing the evade frames. Against 2 good players who know the evade frames of db I’d give you 10s of life… and that’s high imo. As soon as you db once, you’re stunned and bursted, and db is your main form of damage and defense.

@Void
And in this build you have big fat zero condition cleanse (maybe basilisk venom, 1 sec channeling time on 45 sec cd?). You are hard countered by necros and engineers without any chances to fight back. Other classes using condis, or with more than 1 condi removal tools will be just hard. However, it’s a very good build against newbies and people with their brains afk.

Once again – this is IMPOSSIBLE to stay competitive relying only 1 button, because it’s predictable, and being predictable is… bad. Not to mention it’s boring.

Dagins.5163:

@Void
And in this build you have big fat zero condition cleanse (maybe basilisk venom, 1 sec channeling time on 45 sec cd?). You are hard countered by necros and engineers without any chances to fight back. Other classes using condis, or with more than 1 condi removal tools will be just hard. However, it’s a very good build against newbies and people with their brains afk.

Once again – this is IMPOSSIBLE to stay competitive relying only 1 button, because it’s predictable, and being predictable is… bad. Not to mention it’s boring.

this is not just for you Dagins, its for every that doesnt understand my build.

Does it look like i copy builds from some1….? so you assuming totally wrong build i guess…

Here’s why the build works.
- 12 dodges and enough ini regain to keep up DB/dodge rotation
- sure you can cleanse it , but i can keep it up constantly, if i don’t mess up the rotation.
-( thats a constant closecombat pressure on the target. And if they target me, they will wast alot of skills on the evades )

here’s a old vid ( the first fun version of the build started as a non stealth fun build)

here’s the after patch version of the build. ( it actually does the job better now , even in the condi meta )

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAoY4YlYmiOHcy8E9JFCvAvHO4XFW6C6ecVcVVB-TwAgyCpI0SplTLjWStsaNIYRw+j5HA

BEFORE posting that it is a crap build, you should really try it out first.

Void.4239:

Dagins.5163:

@Void
And in this build you have big fat zero condition cleanse (maybe basilisk venom, 1 sec channeling time on 45 sec cd?). You are hard countered by necros and engineers without any chances to fight back. Other classes using condis, or with more than 1 condi removal tools will be just hard. However, it’s a very good build against newbies and people with their brains afk.

Once again – this is IMPOSSIBLE to stay competitive relying only 1 button, because it’s predictable, and being predictable is… bad. Not to mention it’s boring.

this is not just for you Dagins, its for every that doesnt understand my build.

Does it look like i copy builds from some1….? so you assuming totally wrong build i guess…

Here’s why the build works.
- 12 dodges and enough ini regain to keep up DB/dodge rotation
- sure you can cleanse it , but i can keep it up constantly, if i don’t mess up the rotation.
-( thats a constant closecombat pressure on the target. And if they target me, they will wast alot of skills on the evades )

here’s a old vid ( the first fun version of the build started as a non stealth fun build)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kjN4Swgn3k

here’s the after patch version of the build. ( it actually does the job better now , even in the condi meta )

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAoY4YlYmiOHcy8E9JFCvAvHO4XFW6C6ecVcVVB-TwAgyCpI0SplTLjWStsaNIYRw+j5HA

BEFORE posting that it is a crap build, you should really try it out first.

I do understand your build.

I have tried it out before.

It is a crap build.

We don’t have to agree however. You have fun playing it, I’ll have fun playing something else.

I have been running D/D and S/D in sPvP as a conditions thief, and it can be awesome. I usually blow a lot of my initiative and endurance spamming DB and Dodgetrops, then stealth, switch to pistol main-hand and stack five more bleeds real quick. I initially was focusing on evades/dodges, but started moving more towards stealth with a newer build. Pistol 1 is a great way to stack bleeds, and people can’t target what they can’t see.

You get a ton of evades obviously, plus you are constantly healing yourself quite a bit as you hit sooo often. It’s amazingly survivable, plus you can stack up a ton of bleeds very quickly with DB and Caltrops. Even classes that cleanse condi’s a lot will eventually start to slowly break down while your health stays pretty full. Just run 0/0/30/20/20 and signet of malice, and mix carrion/apoth. gear.

I am pretty much basing the build on Selfrij’s build (search it on youtube), but using DB quite a bit more. I just use pistols when the init. gets low, as pistol 1 can stack bleeds without using any. So far it’s put me number 1 for kills in quite a few PUG sPvP matches, and a lot of times I won’t even go down.