Guild Wars 2

For those of you who want D/D back, here ya go
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCVOhlOBOmC8PhFYCTLBEA2NephzQbYOEeCbhA-TpBEwAM3fIbZgIHCACPAAAHBADnAAA

Now, this build is full glass. Regular Marauder D/D doesn’t work because there’s no on demand stealth and blind, so this is basically kill or be killed. We’re not running signet of agility, because if a condi build manages to get condis on you, you’re already kittened. So, Infiltrators signet I found was way better because we don’t have shadow shot anymore. Then, distracting daggers for mainly interrupting the heal skill, or any thing that will kill you instantly and you’re out of dodges, or proccing PI. Always open up with steal for the fury. This build obviously isn’t as good as the meta d/p build, but in my opinion is the only power d/d build that works for me.

It is an interesting build, I will say I have been running the regular DA/Tri/DD traits with D/D using CV, SS,BD, SoA, and BV. SS and SoA provide more than Adequate Condi cleanse especially if you run Improvisation and get the CD resets.

I run the same build for both WvW and sPvP.

The only thing is not to try and fight the same as D/P, D/D is more initial Burst to pop the Passive Defenses then Disengage and re-engage after Passives and Defensive skills are gone.

I have yet to find any Classes a hard match up, with this build, always remember Burst then disenagage and burst again after all procs are finished. The build relies mostly on kiting and awareness

I think the Sigil of Fire could be swaped for Sigil of Blood, as Sigil of Blood steals more health than is the dmg of Sigil of Fire.

Also Critical Strikes used instead of Deadly Arts, using Hidden Killer trait might be fun aswell. Considering your combo will propably be CnD + Steal, it will get you beautiful dmg bonus for striking from stealth.

Alatar.7364:

I think the Sigil of Fire could be swaped for Sigil of Blood, as Sigil of Blood steals more health than is the dmg of Sigil of Fire.

Also Critical Strikes used instead of Deadly Arts, using Hidden Killer trait might be fun aswell. Considering your combo will propably be CnD + Steal, it will get you beautiful dmg bonus for striking from stealth.

Blood and fire can be interchanged but it’s not too much of a difference either way, it’s very hard to drop DA for CS, due to the amount of utility and damage DA brings, the extra damage from Mug normally outweighs the damage from CS plus the heal it provides, then there is Improvisation which can be extremely beneficial.

All CS bring some is extra damage with not much else.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Alatar.7364:

I think the Sigil of Fire could be swaped for Sigil of Blood, as Sigil of Blood steals more health than is the dmg of Sigil of Fire.

Also Critical Strikes used instead of Deadly Arts, using Hidden Killer trait might be fun aswell. Considering your combo will propably be CnD + Steal, it will get you beautiful dmg bonus for striking from stealth.

Blood and fire can be interchanged but it’s not too much of a difference either way, it’s very hard to drop DA for CS, due to the amount of utility and damage DA brings, the extra damage from Mug normally outweighs the damage from CS plus the heal it provides, then there is Improvisation which can be extremely beneficial.

All CS bring some is extra damage with not much else.

Even with Mug, CS still provides a considerabli more dmg than DA, which is what this build aims for, dmg. Although I’d suggest CS only cause of the Hidden Killer trait, otherwise it would not make much of a difference, indeed.

Alatar.7364:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Alatar.7364:

I think the Sigil of Fire could be swaped for Sigil of Blood, as Sigil of Blood steals more health than is the dmg of Sigil of Fire.

Also Critical Strikes used instead of Deadly Arts, using Hidden Killer trait might be fun aswell. Considering your combo will propably be CnD + Steal, it will get you beautiful dmg bonus for striking from stealth.

Blood and fire can be interchanged but it’s not too much of a difference either way, it’s very hard to drop DA for CS, due to the amount of utility and damage DA brings, the extra damage from Mug normally outweighs the damage from CS plus the heal it provides, then there is Improvisation which can be extremely beneficial.

All CS bring some is extra damage with not much else.

Even with Mug, CS still provides a considerabli more dmg than DA, which is what this build aims for, dmg. Although I’d suggest CS only cause of the Hidden Killer trait, otherwise it would not make much of a difference, indeed.

Yes, as I stated CS provides higher damage but lacks Utility and the added benefit of the heal From Mug and not to forget Panic Strike without sacrificing too much damage. In most builds it’s hard to replace DA, certain builds can do it easily.

I love using CS when I can get away with it, builds utilizing S/P or P/P which greatly benefit from the trait line, or when I pure glass D/D using DA/CS/Tri, but I digress.

I actually tried playing with CS in the past, but I like deadly arts because of the utility it brings. This build doesn’t normally one shot things, so having more utility and traits like improv would be more useful. But I can see CS working for certain matchups.

Koto.1824:

I actually tried playing with CS in the past, but I like deadly arts because of the utility it brings. This build doesn’t normally one shot things, so having more utility and traits like improv would be more useful. But I can see CS working for certain matchups.

I see.
Just a question abou Improvisation: Isn’t the recharge on Steal randomly recharging any random skill? Ergo doesn’t it recharge even the utility skills that you are currently not using?

Yeah, it’s a very RNG skill especially with the newer utilities in Daredevil. I assume if you run a core build it won’t count them but if you are DD then it is 1/6 chance per category. Mostly it’s useful if your utilities span at least three skill types.

To improv, I am p/d core condition build in one mbuild that takes this and it can work quite well. I have found if soloing I am better off with Improv given I just do not get enough poison on to make it worthwhile to take potent poison (while at the same time garnering a number of very useful advantages like double plasma and double fear) while if in a group taking the poison trait is more worthwhile.

The p/d build I tend to use has all traits outside the signets (DD ones do not count as I do not trait that line) meaning odds of a reset of one are very good.

For d/d power I tend to feel you can get the best of both worlds if you use DD runes rather then rely on a stealth attack for that 100 percent crit.

I can much easier dodge while stealthed and get a 100 percent crit from stealth along WITH a 20 percent bonus from something like executioner as example ( or the high ferocity off no quarter) then I can trait up hidden killer and find another source of 20 percent more damage or 250+ more ferocity with fury.

In most cases the damage gained from Mug alone will allow better burst than what CS offers. People factor executioner as a 20% modifier too often without considering the fact its effect only takes place when the target is below 50% hp, which is at most 50% of a fight. EW cancels the gains from FS, so in CS you’re left with a paltry potential damage bump and either a 10% effective modifier and maybe some ferocity at the cost of DA. The only advantage to CS is maximizing any given hit’s damage value and overall DPS via AA’ing. Otherwise DA strictly deals more damage through Mug and EW while providing ample utility through heal cuts, weakness’s endurance cuts, and PS, while also providing excellent sustain from Mug’s heal and reduced incoming damage from weakened foes.

While true that Executioner only kicks in when enemy under 50 percent health, this does not translate to 50 percent of a fight. The only time it will come close to 50 percent of a fight is in a 1v1.

The only reason I would take CS over DA is not for the ferocity or higher crit rate. It for the IP which is advantageous over mug in specific weapon sets in particular staff combined with PP.

I am aware. I speak idealistically as well in the above.

Even IP typically falls flat; there are few reasons a thief should be committing that much to a given fight while taking enough damage in the process to make it worthwhile. The mug heal is usually contextually superior given the style of the thief.

HK is largely a waste, especially now with Marauder/DrD runes existing.

I am speaking to IP more as it relates to WvW or PVE as i really do not PvP so do not know how well it will transfer there.

When one compares DA to CS the damage is close. The healing IP can afford is huge compared to mug but only really works with high cleave or AOE type attacks. DA’s real edge is the poison and the weakness but given staff has weakness it comes down to poison. (Staff also has vuln and while vuln on an enemy will always get you more damage in a build with IP it will also get you more heals)

Staff vault or even cleave heals via IP can outheal traps dropped by a DH along with all that other AOE stuff that is often parked around a chokepoint or atop of a downed person someone tries to rez. You will really notice its effects if you are in a lords room trying to flip a tower 9or defend) with an enemy nearby. DA is not going to do much for you here as you can not always hit and run in such a situtaion and have to stick on point. Trust me, you are doing plenty of damage.

P/P IP is a means whereby one can get some sustain out of that set , which can not really be done via mug (you do not always want to close to melee) or the DA line while maintining high damage output and dovetails nicely into a might stack vault or AA staff attack. IE if you are swapping ranged attacks with a ranger and have IP running you are going to win more often then not just because of those heals coming in with the beauty being the heals are not tied to the heal stat at all but to damage done.

I would NOT use IP with d/d d/p as you do not have the same cleave or AOE and the combat style of those is more in and out.

I currently have two main iterations of the p/p set. One uses staff, one uses d/p . The guy with the staff focuses on high Crit chance (pretty well 88 percent) while the other has low crit chance (using DD runes and base power of near 3200 thereabouts with bloodlust prior to might stacks)

I have run many hours on each in WvW all conditions and if comparing those specific builds found CS worked better overall with the staff and high crit rate while DA better in the former. The CS build with staff does less overall damage but has way more sustain in battle and works better in groups while the DA build does more damage and fares much better in 1v1 or small scale.

By the time you heal for the same amount of health from IP as Mug, it’s likely you’ve already killed your opponent or have come close. Roughly 14k damage is required to heal the same.

You’re assuming Daredevil + CS + Staff while burning initiative and making oneself vulneravle during WC or WS traited over BT vs DA and all weapons/trait configs in regards to weakness application with what can be zero vulnerability frames during application while also applying cover conditions.

You’re assuming P/P unload for heals and the fact the player does not have projectile hate or blocks/negation where mug still heals regardless.

Yes, the healing is potentially better on CS but it’s almost negligible for how good the rest of DA is and how for every Mug roughly 14k damage needs to be dealt.

DeceiverX.8361:

By the time you heal for the same amount of health from IP as Mug, it’s likely you’ve already killed your opponent or have come close. Roughly 14k damage is required to heal the same.

You’re assuming Daredevil + CS + Staff while burning initiative and making oneself vulneravle during WC or WS traited over BT vs DA and all weapons/trait configs in regards to weakness application with what can be zero vulnerability frames during application while also applying cover conditions.

You’re assuming P/P unload for heals and the fact the player does not have projectile hate or blocks/negation where mug still heals regardless.

Yes, the healing is potentially better on CS but it’s almost negligible for how good the rest of DA is and how for every Mug roughly 14k damage needs to be dealt.

You continue to speak from the perspective of every battle being a 1v1. WvW is not 1v1. I do not know where get this notion from. When I am killing or helping kill player 1 on an enemy team IP allows my health at full so I can go on and kill player two or live through the attack of player three.

It is not “potentially better healing” using IP. It is significantly better and your MUGS can also be blocked or dodged and come much less frequently then an attack. Your mug comes once every 21 seconds at best and heals for around 2k. You get that in a heal off a single Vault. This allows a person using the same to stay in battle longer and not be forced to pull back because the next attack from en enemy near dead will do you in.

Your second paragraph makes no sense . I am not sure the point you are making. Taking the DA line burns intitiave too. The difference is if traited IP you not only do damge for INI spent but you heal for INI spent.

The significant advantage of IP heal over mug is mug is single target and has a relatively low heal whereas IP allows More heals the more enemies there are. This is the same reason SOM works so well in a DB build. At most the mug heal gets 100 heal per second. You can get ten times that using IP.

If my staff cleave or my vault is hitting two targets or three targets I have just doubled or tripled those same heals. Mug does not do this. Added to this that IP heal happens on every attack that does a crit , something MUG trait can not do. That means when one does a bound in addition to the heal off a potential evade there another 1k per target off the bound. Fist flurry and Impact strike will both heal on crits.

This does not mean I believe that CS better then DA in every build. It means it my opinion if one is going CS the best reason to use that line is IP heal and IP heal suited to very specific weapons . If you are talking just about 1v1 duels, there a whole lot that changes.

And how does a >1v1 work in P/P’s favor? It doesn’t because it doesn’t cleave. And okay you heal but you’re still healing for maybe twice as much while still taking substantially more damage from a lack of weakness applied to your enemies or are simply not healing as much because you burned initiative on dodges and applying WC via staff. And using your argument about the context of the heals, any thief not playing in and out in multi-opponent scenarios is either winning due bad opponents or losing.

The heal from Mug is independent from the damage component. The heal from IP only breaks even at roughly 15k damage put into your foe. It’s also just safer, and still results in a target dealing 50% less damage.

To get weakness from the staff, you need to burn initiative on WC. You don’t on DA. You get the weakness on steal. DA requires less initiative spent for the same measure of utility. There’s no denying that at all.

Someone gaining 1k hp per second from IP and SoM is fighting against people who don’t know how to play. Especially the case for power D/D where its mitigation is relatively bad and easy to counter and requires being up close. In and out is how you need to play the kit. IP can be okay on staff but it’s still marginally better than Mug in realistic environments.

And I said the main reason to take DA was over CS was for the weakness and the poison.

Mug does not apply weakness. The damage off Mug is NOT the reason you take DA. It is nice to have but it does nto make the line superior to CS and you do not take it for the heal because IP is superior.

As to a how often you can heal off IP in a given battle, I do not think juding from your response you have played staff enough in WvW to recognize what it can do. Staff is NOT in and out like the other sets are. You tend to stick to an opponent longer and remain in battle for longer periods of time.

This is why other weapons are really not all great for it. They have less cleave, they have no AOE attack and you tend to get out a lot sooner. Add to that the weakness off the lotus poison in a Staff set is of marginal utility. Staff has no poison inherent meaning that Lotus poisons effectiveness is tied to your steal. Steal down you are not getting weakness from that source for 20 some odd seconds. (a grand total of 4 seconds weakness every 21 If your steal hits)

P/P can do well with The CS line because it excellent synergy with unload allowing significant advantage at range over other classes. As example if I am unloading at range with p/P the heals that come in will beat any Retal damage and if you swapping shots with someone like a ranger, the combined damage and heal versus his rapdfire and LRS will push your net damage higher than his.

Further to that when at range one very often does not want to steal in to a target as it covered by rings of AOE. You are often firing across chokepoints which are saturated with AOE and the Mug, weakness and poison apps off a steal will do nothing for you except get you killed. If I am fighting a DH stacked on his traps the last thing I want to to is steal to him if I am fighting at range with pistols meaning Serpents touch and lotus poison become non factors as does the mug.

It also works very well when either sitting atop a wall firing down at an enemy who is shooting at you, or if shooting up at a person on said wall or a cannon that person mans. Again steal mug poison does nothing for you.

You can sit on a castle wall and take out siege a person mans with that health coming in allowing you more shots before you have to pull back. If I am traited DA I am NOT going to steal in these situations.

P/P allows significant heals simply because even as single target the burst is very high. The only way you can get the weakness off the DA to do anything for you in a p/p without having to rely on Serpents touch is by traiting a venom meaning that Lotus poison rarely comes into play using p/p and range. (You will note SB has poison so while a ranged set if you WANT to stay at ranged you can still take advantage of lotus poison)

That “significant extra damage taken” from others due to a lack of weakness applied once again comes to some 4 seconds of weakness every 21 seconds which, when considering it ranged and relies on fumbles is maybe all of 2 or three attacks in that 21 second period. The weakness comes only when poison applied and p/p (and staff) do not have poison.

Just to add. When I am looking at a given build I look at the traits in every given position on a 1 versus 1 basis so as to see how they will fit in with a given weaponset and combat style.

If we look at DA and compare to CS as example from the perspective of a weaponset with no poison inherent it should b e pretty obvious that lotus poison will have a much higher uptime in a build with poison integral to the set then one without. The fact of the matter is in staff or P/P one will get at best 4 seconds weakness per 21 seconds unless condition duration traited, generally not done in a power set.

At the same time power sets will likely have more boon duration. If we look at the trait in the same position out of the CS line we have a trait that applies 4 seconds fury (boon) every 10 seconds based upon the health of the opponent. In real terms this means a much higher uptime for that fury in that 21 second period.

Now granted one can get Fury out of the Trickery line but this ties you to TOTC. In my boon duration build I have found I prefer trickster over BT and the flanking strikes trait over TOTC. This not only allows for extra condition cleanses but gives a full 18 seconds quickness on a 48 second cooldown. Tied to a staff used in conjunction with P/P this allows for huge damage off the staff AA or off other sources when the might running and that quickness kicks in. Given it also a fury source we also have fruy uptime that is competitive with TOTC. The traited haste with the withdraw heal allows for that extra condition cleanse as well.

Yes the poison off steal is missed but given you can not reapply at will (unlike a d/x set) if it cleansed or the enemy has resistance up , it not doing anything for you until that next steal comes up. The way I look at it in my own build, If I can generate more attacks and more critical attacks (which also kicks on all that extra crit damage stuff out of CS) , all the while healing in that 21 second wait I tend to come out ahead .

This is like 99% a build I would run, very similar to the build I ran before quitting the game.

The only thing I’d swap around, with heartache to be honest, is Pulmonary Impact ( Impacting Disruption).

I found it very unreliable as it pulled me out of stealth countless of times when I didnt want it. I know it’s a chunk of damage you lose, but I’d personally swap it for Escapist’s Absolution (removing 1 condition per dodge).

I might also use Withdraw over Channeled Vigor, all that extra ini seems a bit of overkill, I the mobility Withdraw adds, too bad they increased the cooldown back then.. hardly any thief ran Withdraw, yet they found it had to be nerfed for some reason.

Withdraw is super good on dagger dagger.

I also found that basically using the same build as meta d/p but switching out blinding powder for infiltrator signet is also pretty viable.