Guild Wars 2

thought you guys might enjoy something else instead of D/P.

Where’s Jana, Deceiver X, and company now?

I can see your Steal, CnD, BS combo is a wee bit slow. Also y no DBs? You even said you should use 3 moar?

Azukas.1426:

Where’s Jana, Deceiver X, and company now?

I can see your Steal, CnD, BS combo is a wee bit slow. Also y no DBs? You even said you should use 3 moar?

Was anticipating dodges that’s why i waited with the backstab, but yeah I can optimize the D/D gameplay so much this is literally the second time i play with it in sPVP. Besides I don’t know the timing of #3 so i think i’d just mess it up

i am not often on these forums, but i am glad someone else trying power d/d

on that acc i play only d/d power and i am sad i couldn’t capture s5 ladder games (ended with EU rank 70) . mb sind can promote that power set in future season ranked games

nice vid
.

bluri.2653:

Azukas.1426:

Where’s Jana, Deceiver X, and company now?

I can see your Steal, CnD, BS combo is a wee bit slow. Also y no DBs? You even said you should use 3 moar?

Was anticipating dodges that’s why i waited with the backstab, but yeah I can optimize the D/D gameplay so much this is literally the second time i play with it in sPVP. Besides I don’t know the timing of #3 so i think i’d just mess it up

Your CnD and SS timing is a lil off. Almost like you don’t always precast the CnD and allow the wind up first

Pre cast CnD and then getting to where it will hit is the “skill” specific to X/D builds. Takes a lot of practice to get fluid with it imo.

As typical, solid gameplay on utility use and rotations, there are some nuances which can be improved which you largely mentioned such as using DB and nailing down the timing more, although this really isn’t much of a problem given use of the Daredevil, as the extra dodges aren’t that necessary. DB’s relatively unnecessary unless you’re running core thief, are in WvW against a very hard-hitting build or hyper-bunker, or are largely outnumbered. More worthwhile just to save the initiative in most cases.

The big criticism of the video I had was of the opponents. A lot of them seemed to have very little knowledge on how to handle D/D power or thieves in general; there were a lot of places where they could have shut down the kit much better and denied a lot of kills and pressure.

Nonetheless, fun to watch and good to see him playing some other kits.

DeceiverX.8361:

As typical, solid gameplay on utility use and rotations, there are some nuances which can be improved which you largely mentioned such as using DB and nailing down the timing more, although this really isn’t much of a problem given use of the Daredevil, as the extra dodges aren’t that necessary. DB’s relatively unnecessary unless you’re running core thief, are in WvW against a very hard-hitting build or hyper-bunker, or are largely outnumbered. More worthwhile just to save the initiative in most cases.

The big criticism of the video I had was of the opponents. A lot of them seemed to have very little knowledge on how to handle D/D power or thieves in general; there were a lot of places where they could have shut down the kit much better and denied a lot of kills and pressure.

Nonetheless, fun to watch and good to see him playing some other kits.

Part of the opponents thing is that nobody knows how to fight anything but d/p and sort of staff nowadays. They’ve gotten too used to every thief running d/p that when you pull something else out they have no idea what to do cause they’ve probably never fought it before. Now I’m not justifying bad players or lack of shut down actions taken, just stating a possible reason for why it was the way it was.

Example of that: I’ve brought d/d and s/d into games recently and nobody has figured out how to beat it yet. They don’t know about ls being unblockable and stealing boons or that fs needs to cycle to it and they can dodge, block, or blind it. Likewise they don’t know what a CnD is so they eat it every time and wonder what the kitten happened to their health.

Yay power D/D! I might become a fan.

Just for the record I don’t hate Sinderer although it often sounds like I do, I know.

And of course people don’t know how to deal with a power D/D as they’ve been rare for at least 3 years now.

Loving the people dont see it so they can’t play against it lines here lol

Just saying: Maybe you guys get where we others are coming from when saying that D/P is holding thief back.
Sinderer plays D/D a lot like D/P and the opponents aren’t really prepared how to deal with him (and well it’s PvP which I haven’t played since June 2015, no idea what exactly is different in that game mode by now). But you can see how D/P often gets free cards in comparison and how reveal skills would hurt offhand dagger a lot more than D/P if anyone felt the need to use them (it’s rather hard to catch a D/P thief).
I do know that the game as a whole is out of whack and that basically every profession is a problem. But people are crying for more and more reveal skills and whatnot and, like I said, it hurts all other sets than D/P – and as you can see in this video: Stealth isn’t really needed but still a necessary tool thief is build around. Also being able to heartseeker 4 times into one smoke field leaves little room for counterplay as you know with OH dagger that the thief is stealthed 3 to 4 s max.
And that was our point – or one of the points, there’s also the traits.
But I guess anet have given up on balance and thief anyway as the stealth attack cooldown (e.g.) makes no sense at all – I’m being punished for positioning bugs, passives and lags and not for my bad game play, so basically this cooldown punishes me for playing thief.
Thanks for uploading.

Azukas.1426:

Loving the people dont see it so they can’t play against it lines here lol

They don’t, though. There were so many situations in the game where he could have easily been taken down. Others like the mesmer lagging just gave him problems he had no control over. He outright mentioned its weaknesses during the stream. Which D/P could have had utilized. The fact he was able to land so many CnD’s throughout the match, and that he went relatively ignored despite pumping out some pretty serious numbers is a pretty big testament to this. You look at the way all the enemies fought and it pretty much came down to just outright not utilizing their kits properly to deal with him.

I’m not being critical of Sind here – he did very well playing in general because of his proficiency at the profession outside of the realm of D/D. His rotation game is good enough where I don’t think a few struggling fights would have lost them the game, anyways. I’m just stating that just because he won a game with it while not being a pro at the kit doesn’t really suggest anything about the set’s current viability in general based on how the enemies played.

I land CnD all the time in spvp. The issue isn’t landing the skill so much as knowing how to use it.

D/P smoke field combo requires a clear field to pull off consistently. CnD thrives in target rich environments. D/P can stealth stack more effectively but CnD requires less initiative in order to gain stealth and is more rapid in doing so especially when CnD is precast.

The set suffers from a lack of cc besides cripple. It does have the evade on D/D 3 so it isn’t completely defenseless in close range combat. Id say it is an undervalued rather than underpowered set.

saerni.2584:

I land CnD all the time in spvp. The issue isn’t landing the skill so much as knowing how to use it.

D/P smoke field combo requires a clear field to pull off consistently. CnD thrives in target rich environments. D/P can stealth stack more effectively but CnD requires less initiative in order to gain stealth and is more rapid in doing so especially when CnD is precast.

The set suffers from a lack of cc besides cripple. It does have the evade on D/D 3 so it isn’t completely defenseless in close range combat. Id say it is an undervalued rather than underpowered set.

Target rich environements also have a potential lot of shared aegis which is a huge problem for CnD, so I kind of doubt you have it that easy. And: People aren’t really prepared. CnD costs less initiative, yes, but its stealth uptime is only 3-4s unlike the smokefield and heartseeker combo which gives you I think 15-18 seconds. Initative isn’t really the problem since June 2015 anymore and D/P can stealth faaar away from any opponent, so they have to get to that smoke field to be able to disrupt the stealth.
And since CiS is grandmaster (of SA) and not bound to CnD you’ll get serious troubles in close combat. My D/D buddies mostly left the game and believe me, they loved the set, so I don’t think it’s undervalued.

That depends wildly on build. In the case of Daredevil without SA, it’s pretty much generally safe to say it’s cheaper to use CnD over BP+HS unless Bound is used in terms of raw stealth access, although I don’t think Sind uses it in sPvP since it’s mostly a 1v1 trait and doesn’t yield swiftness access like UC does.

CiS doesn’t really provide that much for x/D in general. It’s an extra layer of safety after the CnD has landed; but what is that really necessary for? Even D/P with BP+HS would need to dodge to avoid subsequent bombs, and you can dodge during/just before the aftercast of CnD and still gain the stealth just fine. Basically, it was a freebie defensive passive which prevented counterplay by AoE/cleave-nuking a D/D thief. I’m actually pretty glad that it’s gone, personally; you can use abilities and react to incoming ones at the same time, so I’d much rather see other elements of the game take a similar approach.

CnD’s issues stem from it being a very risky ability to use relative to its initiative cost because it can’t wait an opponent out in stealth like D/P can, and may trigger passives/requires a hit in melee to achieve, which depending on the timing and circumstances of the fight, can be very difficult to do.

This is why I also don’t advocate unblockable be applied to CnD; skilled blocks and negation of such an animation/setup for backstab should be rewarded, which is why I oppose the existing state of the game more than asking for buffs to OH dagger; if not supplied with so many ways to negate CnD, and in particular, D/D power due to the ICD on backstab having a high impact on whether or not the kit works at any given point in time, there wouldn’t really be a need to buff the skill at all.

The thing about D/D is that it has a place as an initiative-efficient damage dealing set. The problem is that its means of achieving damage have been trivialized via the AA buffs, and through its relatively linear kit which is pretty simple to counter and quite predictable for the most part in PvP environments, all while hinging on the risky nature of CnD. Unlike D/P, the kit interacts poorly with itself and thus struggles to maintain synergy, while it also doesn’t interact well with other kits nor provide options to deal with them; in particular, kits which have a plethora of defenses in general give the set a very difficult time.

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

Loving the people dont see it so they can’t play against it lines here lol

They don’t, though. There were so many situations in the game where he could have easily been taken down. Others like the mesmer lagging just gave him problems he had no control over. He outright mentioned its weaknesses during the stream. Which D/P could have had utilized. The fact he was able to land so many CnD’s throughout the match, and that he went relatively ignored despite pumping out some pretty serious numbers is a pretty big testament to this. You look at the way all the enemies fought and it pretty much came down to just outright not utilizing their kits properly to deal with him.

I’m not being critical of Sind here – he did very well playing in general because of his proficiency at the profession outside of the realm of D/D. His rotation game is good enough where I don’t think a few struggling fights would have lost them the game, anyways. I’m just stating that just because he won a game with it while not being a pro at the kit doesn’t really suggest anything about the set’s current viability in general based on how the enemies played.

Actually a condi mesmer is no threat to me as a thief unless i play bad, doesn’t matter what weaponset I play, however to kill him 1v1? No obviously that doesn’t work.

Signet buff
Improvisation with Ecto x2
Double stunbreak (compared to me only running blinding powder on DP)

DeceiverX.8361:

CiS doesn’t really provide that much for x/D in general. It’s an extra layer of safety after the CnD has landed; but what is that really necessary for? Even D/P with BP+HS would need to dodge to avoid subsequent bombs, and you can dodge during/just before the aftercast of CnD and still gain the stealth just fine. Basically, it was a freebie defensive passive which prevented counterplay by AoE/cleave-nuking a D/D thief. I’m actually pretty glad that it’s gone, personally; you can use abilities and react to incoming ones at the same time, so I’d much rather see other elements of the game take a similar approach.

It is an extra layer of safety with rather little use which is already on D/P 3 and 5, yes. And it did come with a cost (trait – if you compare it to D/P for which the blind really comes without a cost) and power D/D is one of the few pure melee sets. Unless of course you burn all your utility skills for ports and use dancing dagger a lot.

DeceiverX.8361:

D/D power due to the ICD on backstab having a high impact on whether or not the kit works at any given point in time, there wouldn’t really be a need to buff the skill at all.

Power D/D might be the rawest set in game and thus relies on game performance probably the most. The ICD on stealth attacks ins’t the only problem it faces but it might hurt it the most. I’m actually thinking of going D/P for a bit, again.

I agree on the rest and I also like the approach of giving CnD more vulnerability, which is dwarfed by SS still having a higher coefficent, still by the passives and insane AoE of other classes and of course the problems with the stealth attack cooldown. But I like the direction.

I meant more where there are pets and other targets around that make it easy. Some people will have aegis and others won’t so I target those for CnD and then continue with my attacks. I admit this takes a chunk out of your damage running power, but the heartseeker black powder combo doesn’t really do damage either so I would really care unless I felt that everything I do to survive also needs to do strong damage.

CiS is what I used to run. Now I find Rending Shade far superior as it cuts through boon spam nicely. Resistance is more easily dealt with and protection/regen also get removed so everyone is doing more damage to the target because of you.

It’s pretty hard to tell who will have aegis in a group with a guard – that was my point.
D/P isn’t only about stealth, they also have shadow shot and headshot.

Not really, it shows up as an animation and on their bar. Besides that guards don’t spit out that much AoE aegis. It can be a problem to be fair but it doesn’t negate the use of CnD into irrelevance.

“The more the merrier” “The more the more passive blocks you have” “You can see it on their bar”. Either I’m really a noob or you guys have too much time at hand when in combat, especially when vs groups. I don’t get all this “Nah, I’m a pro player D/D is still fine, just that no one plays it for some reason, but it’s fine!”

And with that I’m out again before I become my usual grumpy self.
And btw, Deceiver: If you think that CiS was bad then you’re against any traits in general. It’s by no means a passive trait and D/D needs some help when it comes to melee, especially in this kittened up meta.

bluri.2653:

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

Loving the people dont see it so they can’t play against it lines here lol

They don’t, though. There were so many situations in the game where he could have easily been taken down. Others like the mesmer lagging just gave him problems he had no control over. He outright mentioned its weaknesses during the stream. Which D/P could have had utilized. The fact he was able to land so many CnD’s throughout the match, and that he went relatively ignored despite pumping out some pretty serious numbers is a pretty big testament to this. You look at the way all the enemies fought and it pretty much came down to just outright not utilizing their kits properly to deal with him.

I’m not being critical of Sind here – he did very well playing in general because of his proficiency at the profession outside of the realm of D/D. His rotation game is good enough where I don’t think a few struggling fights would have lost them the game, anyways. I’m just stating that just because he won a game with it while not being a pro at the kit doesn’t really suggest anything about the set’s current viability in general based on how the enemies played.

Actually a condi mesmer is no threat to me as a thief unless i play bad, doesn’t matter what weaponset I play, however to kill him 1v1? No obviously that doesn’t work.

Signet buff
Improvisation with Ecto x2
Double stunbreak (compared to me only running blinding powder on DP)

I meant it not as a difficulty in general fighting the mesmer because it was a mesmer but instead because the fact the guy was lagging really hurts D/D since it can’t close gaps like Shadow Shot and even how S/x can, and how it depends on CnD to hit to gain stealth for its primary burst. D/D should probably run without PI in most cases for EA, instead, which makes the matchup even better, since the interrupt potential is pretty low and CnD deals pretty substantial damage as well, and as you said, there are further plenty of ways to deal with such a mesmer.

CnD does not need much more. The vuln stacks add is fine albeit they might extend to 5 seconds.

To push this into competitive territory I suggest the following.

Lower INI cost by 1.
Increase base stealth duration by 1 second.

This means traited SA a successful CnD would pull off 5 seconds stealth for 5 ini.
The much easier d/p stealth would result in 4 seconds stealth for 9 ini.

With the added damage of the CnD itself and the 5 percent boost to the backstab damage via the Vuln, CnD is much more competitive per ini spent.

That extra second in stealth be it 4 or 5 seconds depending on whether SA traited will alow x/d user a bit of an edge in setting up an attack without the stealth stacking that the d/p set has.

As to making it unblockable, i do not think it required albeit the application of the Vuln stacks might be made so. Ie your stealth might be blocked but the Vuln still applied. This means that at the very least a failed CnD at 5 ini applies the Vuln.

DeceiverX.8361:

bluri.2653:

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

Loving the people dont see it so they can’t play against it lines here lol

They don’t, though. There were so many situations in the game where he could have easily been taken down. Others like the mesmer lagging just gave him problems he had no control over. He outright mentioned its weaknesses during the stream. Which D/P could have had utilized. The fact he was able to land so many CnD’s throughout the match, and that he went relatively ignored despite pumping out some pretty serious numbers is a pretty big testament to this. You look at the way all the enemies fought and it pretty much came down to just outright not utilizing their kits properly to deal with him.

I’m not being critical of Sind here – he did very well playing in general because of his proficiency at the profession outside of the realm of D/D. His rotation game is good enough where I don’t think a few struggling fights would have lost them the game, anyways. I’m just stating that just because he won a game with it while not being a pro at the kit doesn’t really suggest anything about the set’s current viability in general based on how the enemies played.

Actually a condi mesmer is no threat to me as a thief unless i play bad, doesn’t matter what weaponset I play, however to kill him 1v1? No obviously that doesn’t work.

Signet buff
Improvisation with Ecto x2
Double stunbreak (compared to me only running blinding powder on DP)

I meant it not as a difficulty in general fighting the mesmer because it was a mesmer but instead because the fact the guy was lagging really hurts D/D since it can’t close gaps like Shadow Shot and even how S/x can, and how it depends on CnD to hit to gain stealth for its primary burst. D/D should probably run without PI in most cases for EA, instead, which makes the matchup even better, since the interrupt potential is pretty low and CnD deals pretty substantial damage as well, and as you said, there are further plenty of ways to deal with such a mesmer.

There is no purpose for EA when you run improv+signet if you die by condi you played terrible especially now with the new SoA, EA won’t help you beat the mes but PI might, any extra burst damage to pressure mes otherwise he will outsustain you

bluri.2653:

DeceiverX.8361:

bluri.2653:

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

Loving the people dont see it so they can’t play against it lines here lol

They don’t, though. There were so many situations in the game where he could have easily been taken down. Others like the mesmer lagging just gave him problems he had no control over. He outright mentioned its weaknesses during the stream. Which D/P could have had utilized. The fact he was able to land so many CnD’s throughout the match, and that he went relatively ignored despite pumping out some pretty serious numbers is a pretty big testament to this. You look at the way all the enemies fought and it pretty much came down to just outright not utilizing their kits properly to deal with him.

I’m not being critical of Sind here – he did very well playing in general because of his proficiency at the profession outside of the realm of D/D. His rotation game is good enough where I don’t think a few struggling fights would have lost them the game, anyways. I’m just stating that just because he won a game with it while not being a pro at the kit doesn’t really suggest anything about the set’s current viability in general based on how the enemies played.

Actually a condi mesmer is no threat to me as a thief unless i play bad, doesn’t matter what weaponset I play, however to kill him 1v1? No obviously that doesn’t work.

Signet buff
Improvisation with Ecto x2
Double stunbreak (compared to me only running blinding powder on DP)

I meant it not as a difficulty in general fighting the mesmer because it was a mesmer but instead because the fact the guy was lagging really hurts D/D since it can’t close gaps like Shadow Shot and even how S/x can, and how it depends on CnD to hit to gain stealth for its primary burst. D/D should probably run without PI in most cases for EA, instead, which makes the matchup even better, since the interrupt potential is pretty low and CnD deals pretty substantial damage as well, and as you said, there are further plenty of ways to deal with such a mesmer.

There is no purpose for EA when you run improv+signet if you die by condi you played terrible especially now with the new SoA, EA won’t help you beat the mes but PI might, any extra burst damage to pressure mes otherwise he will outsustain you

This is true I find when fighting thieves on my mesmer. Before the patch the meta dp build was either 2 good bursts then GG or standing on top of a hill watching the Thief trudge up it only to eventually fall.

After patch they got 2 good cleanses on top of consume plasma so it’s harder to secure the kill, but I’m not all that worried about dying unless I’m severely outclassed

I still prefer EA on d/d partially so a pulm on a steal cnd doesn’t force me to instantly backstab or be revealed. Getting to wait out a dodge or two when I stealth and am going to backstab is handy a good deal of the time.

It’s a preference thing and in the end it’s not all that significant when we are talking a bit of extra survivability vs a small bit of extra damage (Highest is like 2-3k every 20 seconds).

Ario.8964:

I still prefer EA on d/d partially so a pulm on a steal cnd doesn’t force me to instantly backstab or be revealed. Getting to wait out a dodge or two when I stealth and am going to backstab is handy a good deal of the time.

It’s a preference thing and in the end it’s not all that significant when we are talking a bit of extra survivability vs a small bit of extra damage (Highest is like 2-3k every 20 seconds).

Wrong, it’s a massive difference in spike damage/damage output and EA with new SoA+improv made EA less desirable in every single build. Besides you forget that you can procc PI from Basi too, as well as stolen abilities like guardian. Include improv rng to 2x basi that’s still plenty of PI’s. EA just makes you tanky and that’s not the role thief needs, as i said if you die to condi with SoA+improv vs mesmer you need a huge l2p