Guild Wars 2

I went D/P today, well actually I’m levelling my newest thief with D/P and used that set in wvw on one of my 80s. I have been D/P in PVE and partly wvw more than 1,5 years ago and switched to D/D again.

I have all classes at 80, I do play them, but am not good enough for wvw. I did map completion and some dungeons on (4 thieves), ranger, necro, ele – so I spent quite a while with those classes. Still no clue of necro, hate ranger and like ele. All classes but thief (and maybe ranger) feel like faceroll to me; I’m killing all mobs and still have no clue about what I am doing. When fighting my friend in pvp cele ele vs cele ele, I just leave the room and let him win after 20 mins because I’m bored out of my mind.

And that moment I went D/P again, I wondered if D/D thief has a place in this game as you can smash buttons with every other class, every other weaponset (except S/D right now) and still be fine – try that with D/D.

That’s a genuine question, not a whine post:

Does D/D thief even fit in this game?

D/D is currently the best DPS weapon for PvE. In WvW it used to have a place but then Cloaked in Shadow became Grandmaster and I’ve never seen it used there since (D/P is just much better, period).

PvP, it’s been years since it ever showed up seriously.

Auesis.7301:

D/D is currently the best DPS weapon for PvE. In WvW it used to have a place but then Cloaked in Shadow became Grandmaster and I’ve never seen it used there since.

PvP, it’s been years since it ever showed up seriously.

I use CiS
And yeah, I forgot to include PvE – wanted, but forgot.
But my friend runs dungeons with D/P, because the utility, you know?! So at some point I guess D/D will be forgotten anyway ;)

We have 3 D/D thieves on Gunnars, I think.
I’ve met some P/D + D/D thieves before the patch – they’re gone now as well.

But my question is a bit different as D/D is just so different from everything else in this game that it really feels like an alien.

Jana.6831:

Auesis.7301:

D/D is currently the best DPS weapon for PvE. In WvW it used to have a place but then Cloaked in Shadow became Grandmaster and I’ve never seen it used there since.

PvP, it’s been years since it ever showed up seriously.

I use CiS
And yeah, I forgot to include PvE – wanted, but forgot.
But my friend runs dungeons with D/P, because the utility, you know?! So at some point I guess D/D will be forgotten anyway

We have 3 D/D thieves on Gunnars, I think.
I’ve met some P/D + D/D thieves before the patch – they’re gone now as well.

But my question is a bit different as D/D is just so different from everything else in this game that it really feels like an alien.

I am a d/d thief in WvW. Condition build though, works fine and is fun. (at least one of mine is I play several Thiefs)

Jana.6831:

We have 3 D/D thieves on Gunnars, I think.

you called?

babazhook.6805:

I am a d/d thief in WvW. Condition build though, works fine and is fun. (at least one of mine is I play several Thiefs)

Good, just: D/D has got no utility, if you press the wrong key you’re toast – no other class or weaponset has that. And maybe that’s why I complain about lags and stuff the most as it affects D/D the most.

Gray.9041:

you called?

Always ;)

dd is best weapon set for boss fights in pve

dd has it’s place in wvw roaming

it is possible to play dd in pvp but d/p is just more versatile
forgot to switch weapons yesterday, got stuck with dd in ranked… went well actually but lack of blind/interrupts/gap closers really hurts and forced me to play very careful/defensive…. i wanted to afk at some point because enemy team had guard and it was just impossible to get CnD off him due to perma blinds/blocks~

Cynz.9437:

dd is best weapon set for boss fights in pve

dd has it’s place in wvw roaming

it is possible to play dd in pvp but d/p is just more versatile
forgot to switch weapons yesterday, got stuck with dd in ranked… went well actually but lack of blind/interrupts/gap closers really hurts and forced me to play very careful/defensive…. i wanted to afk at some point because enemy team had guard and it was just impossible to get CnD off him due to perma blinds/blocks~

D/D is suicidal when roaming – D/P is always the better choice, P/D has been until the exact condis thief has got access to were nerfed, S/D was until the weaponset was nerfed and then acro.

Yeah and that is another problem, not only with guards but also with mesmers and eles – the passive blocks.

ETA: But again: This is not really about whether or not D/D is viable (at the moment it isn’t) – it’s just so different from everything else.

Oh wow, the forum logged me out while writing, so a shorter version.

PvE:
Most used weapon. Highest single target damage. x/p mostly used when you need to interrupt something with Defiance.

PvP:
Dead. Very rarely used. For those who love the playstyle.

WvW – Roaming:
Similar conditions like PvP. Really dead.

WvW – GvG/Fokusparty
Slightly higer burst than d/p but it’s not needed because every good FP will instaspike every target. Offers no grouputility. So it’s not needed.

WvW – Zergfights
Through the crowdsurfing ability it’s in zergfights imo the strongest and most fun weaponset.

Conclusion:
D/D is the weaponset with the highest skill cap imo in the entire game. It’s so unforgiving that even small mistakes result in your death.
On the other side, my best GW2 buddy plays exclusive d/d (without SA, so he didn’t feel the nerf) and he can often win fights where I’ve told him before that he doesn’t have any chance.
So it’s a weaponset for those how like the playstyle and don’t mind that they are in a disadvantage against everything.

Mhm, I can’t run around without SA – it works until I meet a condi mesmer or necro – and I never know at which corner I’ll bump into them.

ETA: Or condi engi, although engi seems pretty much dead as well – they’re one of the more unforgiving classes as well.

As the offhand dagger is fine and the mainhand dagger is fine, I think, the only way to conceivably buff D/D is to rework the dual skill.
Death Blossom has always been a bit lackluster.

naphack.9346:

As the offhand dagger is fine and the mainhand dagger is fine, I think, the only way to conceivably buff D/D is to rework the dual skill.
Death Blossom has always been a bit lackluster.

No, CnD isn’t fine in times where everybody has got passive invulnerability. Also maybe the initative costs for it are too high as if you miss that was pretty much it. And in case of lags it’s really hard to land CnD – I found that combining steal with CnD has got a 80% higher chance to work, but steal takes a bit to be availlable again.
I like the dual skill btw, has saved me lots of times but I have the questionable advantage that no one expects a D/D thief.

The question here is, if CnD is bad, why is P/D, which relies on CnD even more than D/D still such a popular build? Heck, even S/D uses CnD from time to time.
The real problem at hand is that D/D is locked into the oneshot playstyle, where you keep on range, then jump in with a simple combo to burst your opponent down.
With P/D, you usually can deal with it, when you fumble a CnD, but D/D is often times all in on the CnD/Backstab plan.
Here’s the thing: even though, P/D uses CnD far more frequently than D/D, D/D is the only build, that relies on CnD to such an extent because it just lacks alternatives. P/D usually is built as more of a brawler, with a more sturdy frame, while D/D is often times pure glass, so when it needs to hit a CnD, it NEEDS to hit that CnD.
Now, if DB was a different skill, maybe a dash type AoE damaging evade similar to burning speed of elementalist, you’d have another option as D/D player and not be 100% reliant on landing that one skill. But the current death blossom pretty much locks you in place for a couple of evade frames, then locks you into an awkward aftercast animation without any evade frames. The distance you move while using the skill is insignificant at best and you really aren’t doing yourself any favor using the skill in a pinch, you just delay the inevitable.

naphack.9346:

The question here is, if CnD is bad, why is P/D, which relies on CnD even more than D/D still such a popular build? Heck, even S/D uses CnD from time to time.
The real problem at hand is that D/D is locked into the oneshot playstyle, where you keep on range, then jump in with a simple combo to burst your opponent down.
With P/D, you usually can deal with it, when you fumble a CnD, but D/D is often times all in on the CnD/Backstab plan.
Here’s the thing: even though, P/D uses CnD far more often than D/D, D/D is the only build, that relies on CnD to such an extent because it just lacks alternatives. P/D usually is built as more of a brawler, with a more sturdy frame, while D/D is often times pure glass, so when it needs to hit a CnD, it NEEDS to hit that CnD.
Now, if DB was a different skill, maybe a dash type AoE damaging evade similar to burning speed of elementalist, you’d have another option as D/D player and not be 100% reliant on landing that one skill. But the current death blossom pretty much locks you in place for a couple of evade frames, then locks you into an awkward aftercast animation without any evade frames. The distance you move while using the skill is insignificant at best.

P/D is dead, S/D is dead – the question here wasn’t whether or not X/D is viable.
When I have been a P/D thief for a short while I spent my initative on Shadow strike. (I lost 5% of my fights as a complete noob playing on NA from EU = high ping).
And again: I like death blossom as it is – full stop.
If D/D was reworked it would take a lot more than just a buff to DB. Or; the traits get reworked so that D/D thieves get an indirect buff, or other classes invulnerability gets nerfed which would benefit X/D as well.

tbh i found biggest issue for DD is moblity, at least in pvp
i think there should be either trait or some rework on weapon set that gives it some teleport like gap closer….

Don’t know, I’d somehow rather have them rework the traits than the weaponset but CnD being unblockable would be something – or CnD with blind. But that doesn’t solve the “lag = miss” problem as landing a CnD is/seems to be science – you can simply run through it.
So, how about: CnD = blind and Dancing Dagger = immobilize (instead of cripple)

Increase evade frame on DB by 1/2 second. PERHAPS add one more bleed stack given weakness of bleeds when compared to other conditions.

Do NOT change DB. It is one of the most fun skills with the best animations. I do not want it to have a dash or be turned into power. The set has heartseeker which closes gaps and hits hard.

Dancing dagger with a 600 dash added might be warranted. Same as is in other respects. Throw dagger cripple and dash to target.

CND can have its ini costs looked at . I think it one too high.

No thank you on dancing dagger getting a dash. It’s an escape skill too you know, even though it’s kitten at it. Also, you can spam it in dark fields for emergency heals (heals quite a bit on SoM builds actually) or in other fields for some pretty spammy other projectile finishers (it applies the proj finisher to all targets hit)

Giving it a charge would remove all of its situational combo abilities, and would make it useless as an escape tool.

Immob on it would be nice though, and wouldn’t change the skill much at all. You could still finisher spam with it, and it would be better for escape/chase usage.

The argument that I have been making for years now is the fact that D/D, and by extension P/P, is shackled and limited due to other weapon set combinations.

D/D suffers because any changes to D/x and x/D will affect P/D, S/D and D/P. There’s no other way to improve D/D other than tweaking DB, which is the only skill with no connection to other weapon sets.

DB is a horrible skill because it suffers from slight game lag and bad pre-cast and after-cast delays. So even though they improved this skill without addressing its clunkiness, D/D will remain inferior to other weapon sets.

My suggestion is to redesign the Dual-Wielding feature that when you equip similar weapon on both hands, it doesn’t just change your skill #3 but all 5 skills. This way, changes to D/D will have no connection to D/x and x/D because the whole D/D weapon set is isolated (by extension, same with P/P).

Unless they take this approach, there’s not a lot of room for them to make any changes because they have limited themselves with this kind of weapon set design. So the first step it to open up the weapon set by allowing them to explore other solutions. By changing all 5 skills, the D/D auto-attack will be different from D/x auto attack, which means that D/P can alos be balanced (or nerfed) without affecting D/D.

The problem we’re seeing right now is that D/D needs a buff but D/P and S/D needs a nerf. Nerfing D/P and S/D kills D/D. You can’t buff D/D without making D/P and S/D over powered. So there’s really only one logical solution, separate the skills for each weapon set. The same approach needs to happen with P/P. When Black Powder was nerfed because of D/P…P/P became kitten if it was not already. And this will just continue until they made the change I’ve suggested, there’s really no other way.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

D/D suffers because any changes to D/x and x/D will affect P/D, S/D and D/P. There’s no other way to improve D/D other than tweaking DB, which is the only skill with no connection to other weapon sets.

DB is a horrible skill because it suffers from slight game lag and bad pre-cast and after-cast delays. So even though they improved this skill without addressing its clunkiness, D/D will remain inferior to other weapon sets.

S/D rarely makes use of the dagger, P/D were able, or still can adjust their traits to make a lot of stuff work as condi builds are a bit easier to set up. I expect them both to use DD which will be a huge buff to them both. Still as it is now a buff to X/D wouldn’t really buff S/D nor P/D.
Like I said a lot of times: I like Death Blossom as it is and it is useful to me – sure it’s the only “D/D skill” but I don’t think you can put everything D/D is lacking into it and then everything would be fine.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

My suggestion is to redesign the Dual-Wielding feature that when you equip similar weapon on both hands, it doesn’t just change your skill #3 but all 5 skills. This way, changes to D/D will have no connection to D/x and x/D because the whole D/D weapon set is isolated (by extension, same with P/P).

Unless they take this approach, there’s not a lot of room for them to make any changes because they have limited themselves with this kind of weapon set design. So the first step it to open up the weapon set by allowing them to explore other solutions. By changing all 5 skills, the D/D auto-attack will be different from D/x auto attack, which means that D/P can alos be balanced (or nerfed) without affecting D/D.

The problem we’re seeing right now is that D/D needs a buff but D/P and S/D needs a nerf. Nerfing D/P and S/D kills D/D. You can’t buff D/D without making D/P and S/D over powered. So there’s really only one logical solution, separate the skills for each weapon set. The same approach needs to happen with P/P. When Black Powder was nerfed because of D/P…P/P became kitten if it was not already. And this will just continue until they made the change I’ve suggested, there’s really no other way.

With that you’re kind of right (except that no thief weaponset needs a nerf right now – with DD that might be a different secnario, but it’s not in game yet), my point above still stands though. How about a trait “If you wield 2 weapons of the same kind, then you’ll get this buff” if CnD were changed to blind then CiS would be “free”, although then I probably really wouldn’t bother to take that line as it tries to make me into a saint “you rez faster, you heal your allies” wheras I have once been a proud “warrior”.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

D/D suffers because any changes to D/x and x/D will affect P/D, S/D and D/P. There’s no other way to improve D/D other than tweaking DB, which is the only skill with no connection to other weapon sets.

DB is a horrible skill because it suffers from slight game lag and bad pre-cast and after-cast delays. So even though they improved this skill without addressing its clunkiness, D/D will remain inferior to other weapon sets.

S/D rarely makes use of the dagger, P/D were able, or still can adjust their traits to make a lot of stuff work as condi builds are a bit easier to set up. I expect them both to use DD which will be a huge buff to them both. Still as it is now a buff to X/D wouldn’t really buff S/D nor P/D.

S/D uses D as power-based while P/D wants D to be condition-damage-based. D/D will benefit more from condition-damage-based only because of how DB functions right now. So what do we do? Should we favor condition over power, or vice versa?

As it is now, power-based D/D is rather weak and most D/D favors condition-based. D/D power-based really need CnD to be more potent. An application of 10 stacks of vulnerability from CnD would really help D/D power builds — but that can never happen because of S/D and P/D. Now that vulnerability also increases condition damage, it will benefit D/D condition based even more.

In its current state, D/D will never be viable as power based.

S/D may not use dagger now, but after the release of DD, I am sure that Tactical Strike will be more popular than Backstab simply by comparing the damage potential of PI vs BS. Overall damage potential of S/D will further overshadow D/D.

The main reason for not favoring power-based for D/D is because it will benefit D/P more than it will benefit D/D. So there will be no changes for any skills in dagger main hand. The conflict between power vs condition has been tearing D/D apart that at some point lost its identity.

I remember way back when CnD -> Backstab was the best combo, now this can never be because FS/LS deals more damage than BS, so a CnD -> FS/LS is more appealing. Now with DD, it will be CnD -> Tactical Strike (TS) -> FS/LS only because TS will now have a potential to inflict Pulmonary Impact. Which will favor the skills of dagger off-hand to be focus on power rather than on conditions -- which in turn further alienates D/D condition builds.

Perhaps fixing DB to be more power-based can give D/D a boost, but then again, that will anger the D/D condition players.

[/quote]Like I said a lot of times: I like Death Blossom as it is and it is useful to me – sure it’s the only “D/D skill” but I don’t think you can put everything D/D is lacking into it and then everything would be fine.[/quote]

That’s actually my point. Fixing D/D is more than just fixing DB; it needs its own identity. That is why my suggestion was to give D/D and P/P their own unique weapon sets.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

My suggestion is to redesign the Dual-Wielding feature that when you equip similar weapon on both hands, it doesn’t just change your skill #3 but all 5 skills. This way, changes to D/D will have no connection to D/x and x/D because the whole D/D weapon set is isolated (by extension, same with P/P).

With that you’re kind of right (except that no thief weaponset needs a nerf right now – with DD that might be a different secnario, but it’s not in game yet), my point above still stands though. How about a trait “If you wield 2 weapons of the same kind, then you’ll get this buff”…

That would be appropriate for a Dual-Wield Training, where it used to buff only the #3 skills. However, it will pigeon hole all D/D and P/P builds to take that trait, then where would you put it? In DA? In Trickery? or more appropriately, in Acro?

In my opinion, it shouldn’t be in a trait.

…if CnD were changed to blind then CiS would be “free”, although then I probably really wouldn’t bother to take that line as it tries to make me into a saint “you rez faster, you heal your allies” wheras I have once been a proud “warrior”.

In my opinion, all stealth skills should cause blindness. We’re Thieves, not Mesmer, thus we use items like smoke to conceal ourselves.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That would be appropriate for a Dual-Wield Training, where it used to buff only the #3 skills. However, it will pigeon hole all D/D and P/P builds to take that trait, then where would you put it? In DA? In Trickery? or more appropriately, in Acro?

In my opinion, it shouldn’t be in a trait.

…if CnD were changed to blind then CiS would be “free”, although then I probably really wouldn’t bother to take that line as it tries to make me into a saint “you rez faster, you heal your allies” wheras I have once been a proud “warrior”.

In my opinion, all stealth skills should cause blindness. We’re Thieves, not Mesmer, thus we use items like smoke to conceal ourselves.

You can have several traits for dual wield – when looking at the traits we have, a lot of them are rather useless for D/D – they can be replaced.
If all stealth skills used blindness then probably the weaponsets which are already very good would be buffed some more.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That would be appropriate for a Dual-Wield Training, where it used to buff only the #3 skills. However, it will pigeon hole all D/D and P/P builds to take that trait, then where would you put it? In DA? In Trickery? or more appropriately, in Acro?

In my opinion, it shouldn’t be in a trait.

…if CnD were changed to blind then CiS would be “free”, although then I probably really wouldn’t bother to take that line as it tries to make me into a saint “you rez faster, you heal your allies” wheras I have once been a proud “warrior”.

In my opinion, all stealth skills should cause blindness. We’re Thieves, not Mesmer, thus we use items like smoke to conceal ourselves.

You can have several traits for dual wield – when looking at the traits we have, a lot of them are rather useless for D/D – they can be replaced.

Which ones would you replace?

If all stealth skills used blindness then probably the weaponsets which are already very good would be buffed some more.

In my opinion it should. The nerfs to the damage of our weapons are uncalled for because currently we are facing the risk with no reward.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Which ones would you replace?

Dagger training, Quick Pockets, Shadow protector and so on – I think the whole acro line will be useless once HoT comes out and there’s a lot of traits in every line which no one would ever take, but basically they’re a good idea, they just need a tiny buff.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In my opinion it should. The nerfs to the damage of our weapons are uncalled for because currently we are facing the risk with no reward.

You called for a nerf of S/D and D/P – now I’m confused.

Edit: And I didn’t read through all your S/D stuff earlier (yeah sometimes I’m really lazy) – I have once been trashed by a S/D thief, but I blame lags for that actually. But he was good, there’s no denying it – if you’re able to lock down your target you can easily trash it with S/D – the problem is the lock down.
I just tried S/D (in PvE on a map I’m on every day) and it doesn’t do more damage than BS – if it were that case I would meet more S/D thieves in wvw – in fact I met one the past week and I killed him with Death Blossom (which I used once, followed by CnD and BS). If I meet thieves it’s backstab D/P thieves. Every other is really really really really really rare.

naphack.9346:

As the offhand dagger is fine and the mainhand dagger is fine, I think, the only way to conceivably buff D/D is to rework the dual skill.
Death Blossom has always been a bit lackluster.

It isn’t lackluster. If anything it’s actually slightly over-tuned for the initiative cost since it doesn’t synergize especially well with the rest of D/D. Regardless, people underestimate how effective it can be. It stacks bleeds much more effectively than Shortbow.

I don’t want DB to be reworked, and I’m tired of seeing this suggestion. Turning it into a power skill would remove the ability to play D/D in a hybrid or condi build, and that’s way too much of a sacrifice. It needs to be viable while leveling and Thieves have no other melee condition options.

It’s also worth nothing that Impaling Lotus is likely to make D/D condi more viable.

Einlanzer.1627:

..Thieves have no other melee condition options.

Dagger mainhand = poison

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

..Thieves have no other melee condition options.

Dagger mainhand = poison

I meant besides Dagger. S/x and now staff are almost entirely power based. That’s why I don’t want either the Poison or bleed options on D/D to be changed. The poison should actually be buffed IMO.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Which ones would you replace?

Dagger training, Quick Pockets, Shadow protector and so on – I think the whole acro line will be useless once HoT comes out and there’s a lot of traits in every line which no one would ever take, but basically they’re a good idea, they just need a tiny buff.

Fair enough, I don’t take those traits either.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In my opinion it should. The nerfs to the damage of our weapons are uncalled for because currently we are facing the risk with no reward.

You called for a nerf of S/D and D/P – now I’m confused.

They need a nerf once DD comes out, that’s what I meant — but not right now. When that happens, D/D will suffer even more.

Edit: And I didn’t read through all your S/D stuff earlier (yeah sometimes I’m really lazy) – I have once been trashed by a S/D thief, but I blame lags for that actually. But he was good, there’s no denying it – if you’re able to lock down your target you can easily trash it with S/D – the problem is the lock down.
I just tried S/D (in PvE on a map I’m on every day) and it doesn’t do more damage than BS – if it were that case I would meet more S/D thieves in wvw – in fact I met one the past week and I killed him with Death Blossom (which I used once, followed by CnD and BS). If I meet thieves it’s backstab D/P thieves. Every other is really really really really really rare.

S/D takes a while to master than any other weapon set because it is a tactical set. All Thieves that don’t know how to use it, or don’t know how to build around it, will definitely die from a simple DB. You can’t just go all ’zerker and hope you live through the day.

D/P has an advantage when it comes to WvW — travel. It is cheaper to HS than to use SB #5. So that’s why you see them more often. Besides, I will swap to D/P also against other Thieves, but in general I’ll use S/D — that’s also probably one of the reasons why you don’t see S/D that much. No one would dare try their luck using S/D against another Thief.