Guild Wars 2

Got bored earlier and decided to try a sword dagger build as i did tPvP with my guild, and ended up falling in love lol. Its no burst build by any means and i still switch to D/D for when i need pressure a bunker build but for classes like mesmers where i had trouble before i can now kill em thanks to the sword cleave killing the phantoms or whatev you’d like to call them and the shadowstep/immobile you can do helps when they’re trying to kite you. the #3 ability seems bugged though, as its a pain when you use it and you go rolling off in some random direction instead of behind the target but its a lil thing that im sure will be fixed.

More so i think i just enjoy porting all over the place annoying who im fighing lol.
Anyone else use a S/D build and if so do you still gear for power/crit or do you do something different?

Yep, I’ve been using S/D for all kinds of PvP too. It isn’t a burst build, of course, but in my opinion, it’s better for mobility: the sword’s swing allows you to “dancing” around targets, and Infiltrator’s strike + Dancing dagger go very well together to slow your opponents down while you zig-zag all over the place. The latter can also do some decent damage, and if you’re not solo, it’s useful for combos as well.

I’d say that power/crit is a must, and traiting for stealth is also recommended: in my opinion, playing towards the strengths of your setup is better than trying to equalize its weaknesses. So, power/crit, stealth and/or mobility.

Oh, and Flanking Strike’s second strike might or might not be changed in the future: for now, I’d say it’s better to rely on it for boon removal instead. In my opinion, S/D’s dual skill is not as useful as, well, pretty much every other set’s, but otherwise the sword and off-hand dagger skills go very well together.
Well, you could also say that FS’s second strike is an unpredictable free dodge, hehe. But I’d say that the biggest problem with it is that the skill’s second strike is much harder to land than the first one, which is… fairly unique.

This is my preferred PvP build. In sPvP anyway. Trait for Health regen while in stealth and you have yourself a surprisingly durable fighter IF you can stick on your target and keep CnDing his sorry behind, get kited or surprised BS’d or catch a 100b in the face and you’re done for. And I like it. It feels like the build has definitive strengths and definitive weaknesses which you must try to account for.

But Flanking Strike is just bad. Really, you only need spammable Boon removal vs those “I stack all boons forever” types, like SY! Guardians, Engineers, Tank Eles and maybe some Rangers. But these guys also kite you around making the woefully slow and awkward FS hurt you more than assist you. It also deals low damage, which doesn’t help either.

Boon removal is good, but animations like that have no place in PvP, especially when you’re chasing a perma-Swiftness Engie while having five of his turrets shooting at you.

I’m usually the guy who tries to appreciate even situational skills, but this one is just… bad. And I don’t know if A-net aknowledges the problem.

You can subvert the HB with shadow return if you’re aware enough to initialize the combat with Infiltrator’s Strike. I love the feel of S/D, very evasive and mobile, and a more balanced emphasis on your skill bar as a whole. As opposed some other sets where users will getting the most of one particular skill.

I love s/d a lot. I use a "daze"build. Superior rune of mesmer for more daze time. Sigil of rage on sword and sigli of paralyzation on dagger.
Build:
30 in Cs: side strike, critical haste, hidden killer
30 in Sa: shadow embrace, hidden thief, shadow rejuvenation
10 in Acro: fleet shadow…i like more speed when im in stealth
utilty etc: hide in shadow, shadow refuge, blinding powder, signet of shadow, thieves guild.
How you can see i I exploited to the maximum the stealth to keep in continuous daze the opponent…For now fighting one on one I have not been defeated by anyone.try it and let me know what you think

i just started using s/d for my damage build, its great. flanking strikes may be more reliable if you disable the assist option, that prevents you from walking through enemys. not 100% sure on that though

The greatest strengths of S/D get ignored because so much on-paper build theory simply takes place with a thief against a singular opponent. S/D is amazing in multi-target situations. The sword autoattack chain offers incredible initiative-free damage in any situation it can hit multiple targets while also weakening and crippling. Unlike most weapon combinations, S/D’s burst damage comes from #4, not the dual skill. While Dancing Dagger is mediocre on single targets, the second there are two targets on the field it becomes incredibly potent. The only skill that actually puts out more raw damage than a 4-bounce DD is a Cluster Bomb into a group of enemies.

For skills I use Signet of Malice, Signet of Agility, Caltrops, a situational slot, and Dagger Storm. Situational slot is usually Shadow Refuge for combat and Signet of Shadows for travel, although things like Scorpion Wire have ended up there sometimes.

For traits:
Deadly Arts – 10 – These points are important for ambushing and 1v1 to provide easy poison and burst damage with steal, I’d like to be able to push this tree more because it does have good benefits for S/D, but points are at too much of a premium.

Critical Strikes – 30 – Due to the way crit damage and crit chance interact with each other I believe this tree should either be heavily invested into or not at all. Signets of Power, Critical Haste, and Executioner all provide burst power, activated, random, and situational, respectively. The passives in this tree will reward you for staying high-HP, attaining lots of crits, and being initiative-efficient, all things that this build does well.

Shadow Arts – 0 – I regret not being able to find 10 points to drop into Shadow Arts for cheap C&Ds, but I wouldn’t otherwise invest more in this tree. The bonus to +healing does little for Signet of Malice and staying in stealth to accrue those kind of bonuses is a losing proposition with this setup.

Acrobatics – 20 – This is where much of your dodge synergy is going to come from. Might-on-Dodge is a must, and I take Assassin’s Reward for burst healing. Because S/D gets to choose when to dump initiative instead of doing it as a matter of course, healing via initiative dumping is a viable reactive measure whereas most weapon setups are out of initiative when they need healing most. Played correctly, Acrobatics will always be giving you far more +power than the 10 points in Deadly Arts.

Trickery – 10 – This is basically just for uncatchable, because uncatchable is amazing with heavy dodge + signet of malice.

I run mostly berserker gear, 2 Hoelbrak runes for might duration and 4 Divinity for general stats (this build makes use of all of them in no small measure). At 16K~ HP you’re no tank, but this build is incredibly survivable nonetheless. In a situation where you can use food, a Bowl of Orrian and Truffle Meat Stew will make you godly.

Pros:
You can dodge all day, and your dodges are amazingly synergized. Thanks to acrobatics, the more you dodge the more you can dodge. Between the invulnerability of the dodges itself and the healing caltrops you’ll be dropping everywhere, much of your survivability comes from here. Unlike most thief setups, your effectiveness is much higher against groups, especially if you can group them for sword strikes and caltrop control. For 1v1 a rotation of C&D→Daze→Autoattack Chain→Dodges will give your opponent extremely little viable damage uptime against you while you are constantly receiving substantial healing. For burst, you can attain 25 might stacks if you have food and want to pop signets, and going into burst mode right before spamming D/D or sword autoattacks is the best way I’ve ever seen of “discouraging” an enemy reviving mid-combat. Excellent condition removal between spammable IF (since you aren’t using the initiative to do regular damage) and Signet of Agility. Infiltrator’s Strike, swiftness, and tons of cripple makes you extremely difficult to escape from. This is actually my favorite build for chasing down hard-to-kill thieves.

Cons:
Very unsuited to the passive opportunist playstyle that many other thief builds encourage. If you aren’t constantly jumping into the fray and landing those dozens of hits with your AE attacks and dodge, you aren’t going be getting many heals. Not as good as some setups for near-instant assassinations. Not as focused and easy to gear for as a pure power or condition build. Since dodge is so rewarding to use constantly it can lead to situations where you’re ambushed when out of endurance.

So I was going to post this long-winded post, but my Internet decided it was time to stop working when I had finished writing.

Anyway: there are 2 main ways to play S/D. With lots of stealth and 30 points in Shadow Arts, or just basic C&D and 10 points in Shadow Arts. 20 points in Trickery allows for boon strippage via Bountiful Theft, and makes fighting Guardians and Eles easy. Thats basically what I was going to say.

Honestly, i find S/D useful for one purpose: killing mesmer clones. Aside from that, the build seems more hybrid than anything.

In terms of “weaving” around opponents, using a dagger is more effective since it has faster attack animations and theres not much effort in facing your character towards the enemy while running around him.

In terms of power, there’s not much of it.

In terms of defense, cloak and dagger is the only one that really stands out. However, cloak and dagger is also initiative-heavy, so you’re relying solely on autoattacking the person down at this point

In terms of chasing, I’ll admit infiltrator’s strike is quite useful. Yet, a thief has no problem closing the gap with their utility skills and their other weapon set kits.

@Lan
Consider it a hybrid of S/P and D/D, because thats basically what it is.
The Autoattack of the Sword hits EXTREMELY hard. 1 chain can do 6-6.5k damage fairly easily. Heck, everything except Infiltrator’s Strike hits pretty dang hard. It lacks burst, but has very good, steady, DPS.
10 points in SA will solve the high cost of C&D.
Don’t forget, IS is also a 1200 range stunbreaker. I concur with the faster attack of dagger, but the Sword chain applies a cripple for easier control.

S/D is for people that want a high damage build without the instagib components of our other weapon sets. Its fun, challenging, and downright deadly when played right.

Yuppers ;D I’m having a hard time going back to D/D now that ive messed with S/D. Never really though about Dancing Daggers combined with the autoattack chain for 2+ targets. Then again, i’ve never realy used it much to begin with as i always just switched to a short bow if i cant hit em with my daggers lol.

May mess with y build a bit more as im seeing that some of you have 10 points in shadow arts. Im 30 deadly, 25 crit and 15 trick atm, i like my extra initiative from trickery and i feel like i hit like a limp noodle if i dont put any in deadly and crit, so stepping away from that may take some time. Does the benifit outweigh the lose in dmg for some points in shadow arts? or am i just over looking the amount of dmg i lose with 10 points lol xD

This has been my favorite weapon set since beta. It gives me mobility, an instant evade (that works even if you’re immobilized) in FS, which combined with 15 in acrobatics gives me many chances to evade and the damage is good. I’m primarily a pve’er and have no trouble getting the second strike of FS to land, and as someone pointed out in another thread, that’s about the same damage as a backstab from behind. If I need to strip boons from a boss like mob I can do it rapidly by only letting the first strike land, my damage goes down but it clears the way for others to lay on some hurt.

Also, sword designs look better than most daggers to me.

Currently running all berserker exotic armor save a rare helm (I forget the stats, I need to upgrade it though) a berserker dagger and valkyrie sword. Exotic berserker amulet, an exotic knight ring (going for two) and either a valkyrie or knight earrings, I just have a couple of green zerk items there. I also have a guild assassin back piece with exquisite ruby jewel. I still have some upgrading to do, but my thief is coming along.

My 6-10 skills are: SoM (I also run P/P and occasional SB) a situational utility, shadow refuge and SoA. Elites are either Thieves Guild or Daggerstorm. Utilities I favor are caltrops, and scorpion wire, unless I’m in a situation that specifically needs something else such as blinding powder or smoke screen. I’m flexible.

My traits are 0/30/0/25/15 Deadly Arts did nothing for me really, I miss the poison on steal but I can live without. CS I use patient vitality if I need the HP, or the Side Strikes trait, Critical Combo Chance and Executioner.

I don’t use a lot of stealth so SA was right out. Acrobatics at 25 does more with its stat buffs to keep me alive than SA did. Traits are Power of Inertia and I’m testing Pain Response, Assassins Reward is what I used to have, but I’m not sure it’s better than a ten second regen. Alternatively, I sometimes wonder if my might on dodge matters much, and if not, I could use both healing traits. Lastly with Acrobatics, I noticed my endurance is almost never full anyway, so Fluid Strikes usually stays up, combined with First Strikes and having 15 init, it’s easy to get +20% damage before anything else.

Trickery is mostly for the extra init, but the trait I use is Flanking Strikes, though I do have to wonder if Uncatchable would be better.

I’ve tried all the weapon sets and this one is easily my favorite. I can equip mostly dps gear and still have staying power through dodging and hp, it’s always exciting to play and to me, really looks cool. Someone asked my if I used an elite once when I went on a boon stripping frenzy

Tulisin.6945:

Pros:
You can dodge all day, and your dodges are amazingly synergized. Thanks to acrobatics, the more you dodge the more you can dodge. Between the invulnerability of the dodges itself and the healing caltrops you’ll be dropping everywhere, much of your survivability comes from here. Unlike most thief setups, your effectiveness is much higher against groups, especially if you can group them for sword strikes and caltrop control. For 1v1 a rotation of C&D->Daze->Autoattack Chain->Dodges will give your opponent extremely little viable damage uptime against you while you are constantly receiving substantial healing. For burst, you can attain 25 might stacks if you have food and want to pop signets, and going into burst mode right before spamming D/D or sword autoattacks is the best way I’ve ever seen of “discouraging” an enemy reviving mid-combat. Excellent condition removal between spammable IF (since you aren’t using the initiative to do regular damage) and Signet of Agility. Infiltrator’s Strike, swiftness, and tons of cripple makes you extremely difficult to escape from. This is actually my favorite build for chasing down hard-to-kill thieves.

I found almost all of this reply very informative (thank you), but I don’t understand some of the section snipped above…

1. Where are you getting Daze following Cloak and Dagger? Something on your gear? I’m not seeing Daze as a condition on any of your utility skills )on a skill calculator – I may not be seeing it)…

2. What’s “Spammable IF”? Don’t understand the abreviation…

3. Last, how does this build do in PvE? I initially tried D/D, which is AWESOME against up to 2 mobs, but over that I tend to run out of Iniative and fall before I can take out the remnants of the group. This build looks more “survivable” both because of the dodges and the resulting dropped caltrops triggering Signet of Malice – interesting idea…

Thanks again!

1. #1 attack from stealth is a daze if you hit from behind
2. IF = infiltrators strike – removes condition on return – immobilizes on attack

I’ve been wanting to go to Sword/Dagger but I don’t know if I can give up Headshot and Black Powder (sword/pistol ).

Can anyone post a decent video guide for this? I am an absolute joke with build. I have an insanely hard time getting good positioning for the daze attack, as anyone who knows what they’re doing just keeps their back away from me.

@Ara
RainyThief has a couple of really good sword/dagger videos. One with 10 in SA and the other with 30 in SA. Both are about 45 minutes and are extremely informative.
@ whoever asked about 10 points in shadow arts is worth it. It absolutely is. Grab Infusion of Shadow and C&D suddenly begins much more initiative efficient than before. You also gain 2 initiative from Hide in Shadows and any other stealth skill.

ive seen some good things with the build im using atm ill link it to ya

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/thief#2|3|2642|2631|3361|3997|11435|25|1143|1715|0|30|1195|1193|1728|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|15|786|0|0|0|0|3|28032|28017|53501|53501|53501|53501|53501|25790|21080|0|0|0|0|

with the playstyle i use is making good use of skill 2 and using flanking strike when needed but other than that im letting skill 1 do the work and skill 4 do its work and CnD is not bad since we do stun with tac strike making it somewhat good.

Sword + dagger is a fun build to play with, but I have a hard time taking it seriously, the damage is so low. It’s our version of a bunker build.

Organized PvP means each class needs to play to their strengths. With sword + dagger, you are instead making up for a weakness (defensiveness). There are not many classes that can rival the single target burst, and finishing ability of the Thief.

When I want a thief on my team, I think of the ability to move in quickly, finish someone off, and escape. There are other classes that can AoE, hold points, or survive forever.

You do not deal low damage with S/D. C&D into steal is equivalent to a PW in terms of raw damage, plus you Have access to a powerful daze. Auto attack frequently crits for over 3k and DD is just deadly to 2 people. It provides meaningful control and pressure damage. It is certainly viable in tPvP. ( Shadow Refuge FTW!)

Zunhar:

You do not deal low damage with S/D. C&D into steal is equivalent to a PW in terms of raw damage, plus you Have access to a powerful daze. Auto attack frequently crits for over 3k and DD is just deadly to 2 people. It provides meaningful control and pressure damage. It is certainly viable in tPvP. ( Shadow Refuge FTW!)

I dunno. Numbers aren’t the whole story. The #1 attack animation is slow. It is fairly easy to kite and stay out of range of it in my experience, so while the numbers look ok, a missed attack is zero. You can also be forced to Shadow Return at inopportune times, which can open you up to ranged DPS.

I’m sure there are good players using the build, but I just haven’t had much luck with it. The dual skill is also pretty bad. I’ve spun myself off of platforms trying to use it.

Zunhar.4079:

@Ara
RainyThief has a couple of really good sword/dagger videos. One with 10 in SA and the other with 30 in SA. Both are about 45 minutes and are extremely informative.
@ whoever asked about 10 points in shadow arts is worth it. It absolutely is. Grab Infusion of Shadow and C&D suddenly begins much more initiative efficient than before. You also gain 2 initiative from Hide in Shadows and any other stealth skill.

Watched the second one and it made a world of difference. I use the same 30 SA setup on my pistol build but I was worried it would not benefit the sword — totally wrong. Still missing my daze attacks because of poor positioning, but I’m living long enough that my sustained damage is all I need to destroy health bars.

I’m not totally sold on this over P/D, but it’s a whole lot of fun aggravating folks with IF.

Spartyr – Adjusted for the attack speed the sword autoattack is tied with dagger autoattack for thief highest-DPS auto-attack vs. 1 target. Against >1 target, sword blows everything away.

“I love s/d a lot. I use a "daze"build. Superior rune of mesmer for more daze time. Sigil of rage on sword and sigli of paralyzation on dagger."

The mesmer runes and the Sigil DO NOT stack. Furthermore, the Sigil will provide the exact same increase in TS Daze duration as the runes.

15% = 33%, try wrapping your head around that.

What?? So I can drop the cruddy Mesmer runes for runes of divinity and still have the same daze time with just 1 sigil of paralazation? Cool.

Edelweiss.9815:

“I love s/d a lot. I use a "daze"build. Superior rune of mesmer for more daze time. Sigil of rage on sword and sigli of paralyzation on dagger."

The mesmer runes and the Sigil DO NOT stack. Furthermore, the Sigil will provide the exact same increase in TS Daze duration as the runes.

15% = 33%, try wrapping your head around that.

^Tried, tested and confirmed. I even think both the the Sigil and the Runes do NOT increase the daze duration at all, but I’ll have to test that more deeply. I’ll update later.

@Edelweiss and @ Khenzy
are you really really sure??
lol i will be a little noob .. but i was using sigil of paralyzation to improve infiltrator’s strike. And mesmer rune for daze. Are you sure daze it’s a stun?
ty

The dual skill is what keeps the set away from competitiveness.

As soon as they’ll fix Flanking strike and make it somehow decent ( the damage is very good, as long as IT DOES HIT, something not happening very often/almost at all), maybe with the first strike turned into a boon stealing instead of a boon stripping, this set will start to see the light as a valid alternative in tPvP.

Burst thief, bleed DB thief and venom share thief are ruling supreme, and this due to P/D , D/P and S/D being largely suboptimal.
Casualty wants those sets are the ones with suboptimal dual skills.

Coincidence ?

Wierd I thought P/D was the best for cond builds.

surely not thanks to its dual skill, which is always suboptimal to C&D+ sneak attack.

No different from S/D and D/P.

edamber.1549:

Wierd I thought P/D was the best for cond builds.

i enjoy it quite a bit. this weapon set produces the most consistent survivability and single-target fighting ability for Condition Damage based builds. its got some notable weakness in group fights though, where I find it necessary to switch to Shortbow.

P/D is my all time favorite, and it can absolutely tear apart any build that doesn’t have massive amounts of condition removal, but I always feel like my Power and Crit aren’t high enough when using shortbow to be of real use.