Guild Wars 2

Usually i have been an avid D/D user, however, seeing the change they made to Shadow Shot, i decided to give D/P a try, and given how im a theorycrafter, i also wanted to ask the community on the two builds i want to test and try out

Both use D/P and shortbow
Both use utilities Blinding Powder, Infiltrators Signet, Shadow Refuge
Both mostly have the same minor traits:
Blinding powder at 25% health
Stealth last 1s longer
Might for 15s when stealth
2s swiftness on evade
Dodge returns some endurance
Increases dmg 10% when endurance not full

Build 1: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlYmiPncy9E+5EB3ji60mqfQm9M4qVB

15/0/30/25
Minor Traits:
Stealing applies poison 10s
Weaken targets whenever you poison them 3s

Major Traits:
Increase Poison duration 33%
Deception skills recharge 20% faster
Remove a condition every 3s in stealth
Regenerate health in stealth
Vigor on healing
Gain 2 ini every 10s

Build 2: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlYmiPncy9E+5ExWhdy9woOtpdPwqWtKA

0/10/30/30
Minor Traits:
Crit chance is increased 5% when health is over 90%

Major Traits:
+7% chance to critical hit when hitting from behind/side
Gain 2 ini from stealthing
Remove a condition every 3s in stealth
Regenerate health in stealth
Move 50%faster in stealth
Heal yourself whenever u use a skill that uses ini
Gain 2 ini every 10s

Breakdown on differences:

So basically i read in a thread early, with Black Powder being really strong in blinding small groups of enemies, you will be mitigating alot of dmg when they are in the area, in the chance that you dont have BP around you, Build 1 offers alot of mitigation through 15 in the DA line, where stealing, chain 1 of your Dagger AA and Choking Gas from shortbow will apply poison (which lasts longer by 33%) and applies weakness. Build 2 doesnt have that sort of constant poison/weakness combo

Build 1 also gives faster Blinding Powder and Shadow refuge, no real explanation needed here, more survivability faster, but lacks ini gain from stealth with BP + heartseeker (which hopefully the +3 ini per 10 combo will help)

Build 1 will give vigor on health for 10s (if i remember) on a 15s health, so only a down time of 5 seconds, which allows a lot of dodging, however build 2 has 50% movespeed increase in stealth, allowing more favorable position in backstabs because i decided not to run signet of shadows for the 25% movespeed increase, and the heal from using skills that use ini means that you will be very hard to take down.

I cant decide whether which build would be better. I could take the 10 out of critical strikes line from build 2 and put it in DA, but without the 2nd minor, its not really that strong. If i only had 5 more skill points, life as my thief would be more easier, so whats your opinion?

I run your second build, traited the exact same way, except I switch sword/dagger in for short bow. I found that after I got used to d/p I rarely switched over to my shortbow anymore unless I was spamming cluster bombs; sword #2 just works better for me when targets try to escape, as I like to keep my signet passive up as much as possible.

I can’t even play without fleet shadow trait anymore, it’s great for getting behind targets AND keeping your swiftness up getting across maps

I honestly don’t find with the way d/p works you need the extra 20% deception recharge. Most of the time those two utilities are used as defensive escapes for me anyway. We already have tons of on-demand stealthing with proper initiative management (and in my case c+d on my second weapon set adds another stealth). If you use the #5 on pistol well, you’re already being very annoying with blinds either way.

I also find lately that as I get more and more used to d/p, my game-breaking skill is whether or not I headshot the opponents heal. I feel so much glee in my chest when I can feel their heart breaking on an interrupted heal

I use D/P with 25/15/30/0/0 with Mug, Dagger Training, Side Strikes, Infusion of Shadow, Shadow’s Embrace and Shadow Rejuvenation.

My second set is either SB, S/P or S/D depending on my mood, although I like S/D the most.

Presto.4726:

snip

Main reason for using Shortbow is because it has an amazing teamfight potential with the 15 in DA, with the poison weakness combo in WvWvW, but im guessing your main role with D/P S/D is roaming? What would you do in a defend the keep scenario? Do you just pick off targets?

I can see you forgoing the 20% recharge on Deceptions with the extra control and survivability S/D gives. Headshotting a major skill is an awesome feeling, i feel ya.

Also a question, do you use Withdraw? if you do, would you find it worthwhile to drop a trait for the Gain Vigor on heal?

Incurafy.6329:

I use D/P with 25/15/30/0/0 with Mug, Dagger Training, Side Strikes, Infusion of Shadow, Shadow’s Embrace and Shadow Rejuvenation.

My second set is either SB, S/P or S/D depending on my mood, although I like S/D the most.

That does sound like a killer build, a strong offensive, however im just too used to atleast 15 in acrobatics and Quick Recovery gotta get dem dodges!
How are you finding S/D set? It does seem pretty control/defensive oriented. Last i remember wasnt Flanking Strike a bit clunky to use?

Presto.4726:

I run your second build, traited the exact same way, except I switch sword/dagger in for short bow. I found that after I got used to d/p I rarely switched over to my shortbow anymore unless I was spamming cluster bombs; sword #2 just works better for me when targets try to escape, as I like to keep my signet passive up as much as possible.

I can’t even play without fleet shadow trait anymore, it’s great for getting behind targets AND keeping your swiftness up getting across maps

I honestly don’t find with the way d/p works you need the extra 20% deception recharge. Most of the time those two utilities are used as defensive escapes for me anyway. We already have tons of on-demand stealthing with proper initiative management (and in my case c+d on my second weapon set adds another stealth). If you use the #5 on pistol well, you’re already being very annoying with blinds either way.

I also find lately that as I get more and more used to d/p, my game-breaking skill is whether or not I headshot the opponents heal. I feel so much glee in my chest when I can feel their heart breaking on an interrupted heal

D/P S/D 0-10-30-30-0 sounds really interesting. Couple questions (im debating dusting off my thief alt):
- whats your general strategy for 1v1/1vX?
- ever consider Hard to Catch or Fleet of Foot vs. health in stealth?
- which runes/sigs? Would u consider something like energy/hydromancy on S/D for chasing/fleeing? Force/air on DP?

I guess this is a good thread to talk about this, I’m not entirely sure how D/P is generally played but I’m trying to “spice things up” taking the general BS thief build and try to apply it to D/P.

Most attractive feature to me of D/P over D/D (even though I’m running the same 0/30/30/10/0 build a D/D thief would use) is a lot more reliable stealth off of BP + HS, 100% stealth guaranteed. CnD requires me to hit things, which often doesn’t happen at the critical juncture that I NEED to stealth, because my luck is awful.

I just had a few hours to test this last night, I’ll do more tonight, but I’m finding quickly that I’m burning through initiative at a rapid rate in comparison to CnD. It got me to thinking that maybe I’ll use the guaranteed stealth as a utility rather than the primary means of damage output.

Which brings my n00b question, wth is the primary damage output of a D/P build?

Silver.4798:

I guess this is a good thread to talk about this, I’m not entirely sure how D/P is generally played but I’m trying to “spice things up” taking the general BS thief build and try to apply it to D/P.

Most attractive feature to me of D/P over D/D (even though I’m running the same 0/30/30/10/0 build a D/D thief would use) is a lot more reliable stealth off of BP + HS, 100% stealth guaranteed. CnD requires me to hit things, which often doesn’t happen at the critical juncture that I NEED to stealth, because my luck is awful.

I just had a few hours to test this last night, I’ll do more tonight, but I’m finding quickly that I’m burning through initiative at a rapid rate in comparison to CnD. It got me to thinking that maybe I’ll use the guaranteed stealth as a utility rather than the primary means of damage output.

Which brings my n00b question, wth is the primary damage output of a D/P build?

Backstab is your big damage but auto attack is the meat bread and butter. Some thieves run D/P spamming the stealth just to get backstabs over and over again. Against a decent player it doesn’t work since they are constantly moving/dodging etc.

It also depends on what your fighting. This is how I usually play D/P

Say hammer warrior or guardian then you can afford to mix it up a little with them via black powder since they attack slow with hammer. Blackpowder pulses every second. You put it down and go toe to toe (for a little bit) until they realize its blind field and back off.

Mesmers try to stay away from you so you kind of want to chip them down. With some backstabs and auto attacks, wait for the heal or mass invis headshot, then go for the kill.

D/D ele switch to another weaponset

Ranger you can do work with d/p if they are using bow but its a bit harder and they can easily interrupt your bp/hs combo. I switch to S/D for them same as I do for Ele’s

Warriors with greatsword I switch to S/D after they have burned the 100bs and bullcharge up.

Theives black powder auto attack works lovely against other thieves.

Necro switch to something else I go S/D for them to interrupt deathshroud life steal spam, and well casting. They can interrupt D/P pretty easily if they have a staff.

Engi D/P to open S/D rest of the fight.

Pretty much D/P to open and S/D the rest of the fight. Get in trouble or escape time switch to D/P. Pretty much thieves and guardians are probably the 2 classes where I stay with D/P the majority of the time. If I am trolling then D/P

Incurafy.6329:

I use D/P with 25/15/30/0/0 with Mug, Dagger Training, Side Strikes, Infusion of Shadow, Shadow’s Embrace and Shadow Rejuvenation.

My second set is either SB, S/P or S/D depending on my mood, although I like S/D the most.

Can you link your build?

I actually use à 0/10/30/30/0 set up, and to burst i use runes of lyssa with basilic venom.
T’en point in critical strike may seem too low, but berserker and fury Boon from elite let me have really Good damages with back stab

Ah so basically the way d/p is played is to HP + auto attack, that should be the general go-to attack theme. And every now and again, stealth to BS given the opportunity whether it be a heavy hitting opener or maybe even a closer if the opportunity is there.

Thanks! That does answers my question about initiative management, I’m too used to ignoring the auto attack

LethalConcept.4593:

Presto.4726:

snip

Main reason for using Shortbow is because it has an amazing teamfight potential with the 15 in DA, with the poison weakness combo in WvWvW, but im guessing your main role with D/P S/D is roaming? What would you do in a defend the keep scenario? Do you just pick off targets?

I can see you forgoing the 20% recharge on Deceptions with the extra control and survivability S/D gives. Headshotting a major skill is an awesome feeling, i feel ya.

Also a question, do you use Withdraw? if you do, would you find it worthwhile to drop a trait for the Gain Vigor on heal?

I generally play roaming and small group play. Generally if my small group ends up near a zerg v zerg fight (or I alone), I pick targets off their sides and back ranks. I still keep a short bow in my bag for different situations, but I generally prefer to just build siege when I’m doing keep defense. If there are enough people to make siege worth it, then I’m golden; if I feel like there aren’t enough people, then I have no problem stepping outside the fortification to apply pressure in melee.

As a whole, I feel like a thief’s main role is to either burst single targets, or be a major distraction either way, and other weapon sets do this better for me than a short bow. I still have a lot of love for infiltrator’s arrow, but in general I find melee fighting in this game far more effective. You’re right though, I rarely if ever use s/d #3 skill. Auto-attack is beast anyway

I do use withdraw, but generally speaking, I’ve got enough dodges to go around as it is. If I’m in trouble, I pop blinding powder first, and then chain withdraw off that, so that I’m far enough away to go back to stacking stealth until my health regens. I’m running a very glass build with scholar runes, so I get back up to health pretty quickly and the dmg increase is worth the wait.

Volatility.6729:

Presto.4726:

snip

D/P S/D 0-10-30-30-0 sounds really interesting. Couple questions (im debating dusting off my thief alt):
- whats your general strategy for 1v1/1vX?
- ever consider Hard to Catch or Fleet of Foot vs. health in stealth?
- which runes/sigs? Would u consider something like energy/hydromancy on S/D for chasing/fleeing? Force/air on DP?

For 1v1’s I generally find that if I’m not vs.ing another thief, they generally can’t keep up with the amount of dodges/stealths that I can do. Everyone has been trained now to start dodging like crazy when a thief goes stealth, and with fleet shadow + dagger pistol, it’s easy to stay behind them/stealthed until you’re ready to attack. After that, I try to stay on top of them with pistol 5 as much as possible, mixing in auto-attacks and stealths. D/p is expensive on initiative, so you have to find a balance. Using 2,3,4 skills as necessary, to either gap close, or interrupt.

In 1vs.Moar I usually try to choose a squishy target, and keep dipping in and out of stealth as much as possible. It becomes a lot easier when they start to spread out to look for you. I generally end up trying to burst a few rounds of auto-attack and a few backstabs to down a player, and if I can’t down them, I’ll go back to stacking stealth for 20 or 30 seconds until I’m ready to go again. I only use blinding powder and refuge defensively, but I’m pretty liberal with withdraw.

I find that people generally don’t have a ton of time to stack conditions on me, because I have the removal every 3 seconds while in stealth. If I take too many that I don’t feel like I can fight through, I’ll just remain in stealth a little longer. I find that d/p is a great set for a thief with more of an opportunist mindset.

I like sigil of para on sword, and sigil of air/fire on my pistol. I keep bloodlust on my d/p dagger until I hit 25, then i switch it to my s/d set. My other dagger has a sigil of force.

Incurafy.6329:

I use D/P with 25/15/30/0/0 with Mug, Dagger Training, Side Strikes, Infusion of Shadow, Shadow’s Embrace and Shadow Rejuvenation.

My second set is either SB, S/P or S/D depending on my mood, although I like S/D the most.

I run the same setup (with Quick venoms over Dagger training, since I run Devourers and Basilisks). What bonuses do you see from running S/D (or S/P) over shortbow? Even if you don’t take into account the mobility loss from no IA, Shbow is the key to remaining useful in big AoE fest group fights – especially with your ability to spread poison and weakness.

What does S/D (or S/P) bring to the table that you’re not getting from D/P? I mean, Inf Strike is good, but IMO, not good enough to sack Shbow entirely for.

evilapprentice.6379:

Incurafy.6329:

I use D/P with 25/15/30/0/0 with Mug, Dagger Training, Side Strikes, Infusion of Shadow, Shadow’s Embrace and Shadow Rejuvenation.

My second set is either SB, S/P or S/D depending on my mood, although I like S/D the most.

I run the same setup (with Quick venoms over Dagger training, since I run Devourers and Basilisks). What bonuses do you see from running S/D (or S/P) over shortbow? Even if you don’t take into account the mobility loss from no IA, Shbow is the key to remaining useful in big AoE fest group fights – especially with your ability to spread poison and weakness.

What does S/D (or S/P) bring to the table that you’re not getting from D/P? I mean, Inf Strike is good, but IMO, not good enough to sack Shbow entirely for.

IS gives condition removal….alot more useful than anything the SB grants for my play style. Plus I like the /dagger off-hands as my build is built around stealth, I did run S/P as off wepaon set for some time, but didnt like depending on my utilities for stealth, and PW just isnt as effective w/o haste

Tbh I don’t think anyone is just straight up trading inf.arrow for inf.strike or vice versa. AoE in any type of zerg fest is limited to 5 enemies either way, and to make short bow worth using, a thief has to be essentially in melee range anyway; the arcs on cluster-bomb are just too slow.

With sword/dagger on the other hand, you’re still hitting three targets with your heavy-hitting auto-attack, and you’ve still got c+d. This comes with infiltrator’s strike and it’s return. My style dictates that in a large zerg fight, I’m much more effective zipping through the enemy back-line and flanks to annoy and distract everyone from what they should be actually doing.

If I want to range, I use an alt. Thief is so much more satisfying when you’re annoying everyone and downing people until your group plows through them.

Sword 1 chain hits up to 3? Didnt know that, cheers for that, primarily SB is used for me as a utility movement set, with infiltrators arrow and disabling shot, would love to try these out, but will have to lvl my thief alt

LethalConcept.4593

That does sound like a killer build, a strong offensive, however im just too used to atleast 15 in acrobatics and Quick Recovery gotta get dem dodges!
How are you finding S/D set? It does seem pretty control/defensive oriented. Last i remember wasnt Flanking Strike a bit clunky to use?

I always miss 15 in Acrobatics, but it’s just not necessary enough to take it over other points that are available. This build provides consistent highish DPS along with a half-decent amount of toughness, so you could say that it’s a balanced build. As long as you manage your initiative properly, getting into stealth for a Backstab or Tactical Strike is never an issue.

As for FS, yeah, it’s clunky as all hell so I never use it, instead I compensate with Sigil of Nullification (see below) and use the initiative on a CnD for a Backstab crit.

Battou.7832:

Can you link your build?

Sure, make sure to copy/paste it into your URL bar if it doesn’t work:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAoa8YlYmaPHdy5E/5Ex+hdy9wpGtp6MoZLB;TwAg0Cno4ywloGLXOukctEZUwmkJHA

The Sigil of Intelligence is for a 100% crit backstab after using CnD on S/D and swapping back, so make sure you use it. Also, Sigil of Nullification is to compensate for how dodgy Flanking Strike is. Everything else is pretty self-explanatory.

Alternatively you can also swap out Dagger Training for Quick Venoms and then swap Signet of Shadows for Devourer Venom for the extra control, but it’s up to how you’re feeling at the time, lol.

Silver.4798:

Ah so basically the way d/p is played is to HP + auto attack, that should be the general go-to attack theme. And every now and again, stealth to BS given the opportunity whether it be a heavy hitting opener or maybe even a closer if the opportunity is there.

Thanks! That does answers my question about initiative management, I’m too used to ignoring the auto attack

best post all thread

Dagger auto is same as axe, they are top dps auto in the game
Never heartseeker spam, ever. Use it only to produce stealth, whether at end of your bp or at beginning of it as a closer. An auto sequence > 1 heartseeker on almost dead target and it uses ZERO initiative.
Use backstab to sustain pressure when you need distance (guardian, grenade engi, d/d ele, mesmers), rest of the time (when their cooldowns are down), you stick on them like you were piece of chewing gum.

I notice many D/P thieves use withdraw I still use HIS. With the infusion of shadow trait I don’t see why you would want to take withdraw over HIS.

I run 0/20/30/20/0/0 16,995 hp. I take side strikes and practice tolernace in crit tree. The normal traits in shadow arts, in acro I take fleet shadow and quick recovery. I get about 6-7k backstab crits with 25bloodlust stacks if its a lowbie I get an occasional 9k or 10k but the 10k has only came once.

Why do some of you prefer withdraw over HIS? I feel like if your running infusion of shadow that HIS is a no brainer I have tried withdraw but I feel like HIS is better with D/P.

I did take critical haste as I like that trait but it was more for S/D(other weaponset) than d/p but dropped it since I feel like if I am not hitting someone from the back or side I am doing it wrong so side strikes is much better for me.

oZii.2864:

I notice many D/P thieves use withdraw I still use HIS. With the infusion of shadow trait I don’t see why you would want to take withdraw over HIS.

I run 0/20/30/20/0/0 16,995 hp. I take side strikes and practice tolernace in crit tree. The normal traits in shadow arts, in acro I take fleet shadow and quick recovery. I get about 6-7k backstab crits with 25bloodlust stacks if its a lowbie I get an occasional 9k or 10k but the 10k has only came once.

Why do some of you prefer withdraw over HIS? I feel like if your running infusion of shadow that HIS is a no brainer I have tried withdraw but I feel like HIS is better with D/P.

I did take critical haste as I like that trait but it was more for S/D(other weaponset) than d/p but dropped it since I feel like if I am not hitting someone from the back or side I am doing it wrong so side strikes is much better for me.

Probably because we already have access to stealth with black powder and heartseeker. I find Withdraw to me much more useful in WvW for getting me out of bad situations. I also use blinding powder, and with the shadow rejuv and shadow protector traits, this effectively turns blinding powder into an mini instant hide in the shadows. High five for having dang near the same build as mine.

Battou.7832:

Probably because we already have access to stealth with black powder and heartseeker. I find Withdraw to me much more useful in WvW for getting me out of bad situations. I also use blinding powder, and with the shadow rejuv and shadow protector traits, this effectively turns blinding powder into an mini instant hide in the shadows. High five for having dang near the same build as mine.

I might give it another test run to see if I like it over HIS, 15 sec is good with the immob and cripple and chill recovery. I run the same utilities, shadowstep, refuge and blinding powder I gave up SoS a while ago fleet shadows really helps giving it up.

Having your heal up every 15 seconds is wonderful in WvW zerging, especially when you throw in all the stealthing and confusion in the zerg.. It makes it really hard for someone to pin you down. I see people chasing me give up all the time out of frustration.

Using d/p at the moment and I made my build 10/0/30/30/0 with berserker gear. I found the ini regen and stealth returning initiative to be very helpful as I enjoy more liberal use of shadow shot to both blind and deal quite some damage.

I’ve just swapped to a 10/20/20/20/0 D/P build.

Mug/Side Strikes/Practiced Tolerance/Master of Deception/Infusion of Shadow/Fleet Shadow/Quick Recovery

Trying to maximise Initiative gain (Infusion of Shadow, Opportunist, Quick Recovery + Infiltrator’s Signet) whilst still having some on demand burst (Mug, Backstab, 20% crit damage from Critical Strikes traits) and some defence (Practiced Tolerance + Master of Deception)

Whilst Deception skills can be unecessary a lot of the time, I roll with Shadow Refuge and Blinding Powder. Shadow Refuge with lower cooldown can be used as a heal in combat and also an escape mechanism, Blinding Powder can be used while stunned and is amazing for survivability (Blind the next attack that comes after stun/knockdown and be in stealth after getting up to move away from a target)

Not decided whether to roll with Hide in Shadows + Ruby Orbs (For damaging condi removal + extra crit damage) or Withdraw + Vampirism runes (Withdraw being instant, short cooldown and working well with the ~950 damage + healing from Vampirism runes especially with the ease of access to stealth (Don’t need to hit a target with BP > HS)

Combat should be a mix of offensive abilities such as Shadow Shot + Auto’s with the ability to get some repeated Backstabs off if necessary (Along with Smoke field for blinds)

^^ you missing half the heals, that for mug and bit of fury isn’t necessarily a good bargain.

Brassnautilus.2941:

^^ you missing half the heals, that for mug and bit of fury isn’t necessarily a good bargain.

Where abouts am I missing heals?

Shadow Rejuvination? I’m not in stealth enough for it to tick very much (Especially since the main stealth I use is BP > HS so it doesn’t last very long (Doesn’t seem to benefit from Meld with Shadows) and I typically use Backstab shortly after)

Assassin’s Reward? Whilst it could be effective (BP > HS is very initiative heavy and with all the initiative regen I can spam off a lot of initiative nigh constantly) I’d lose out on something important (Quick Recovery if staying 20 into it, Mug/Opportunist + Practiced Tolerance if going 30 into Acro)

Pain Response? Very low uptime and situational clense… Not something that’d be hugely important.

Instead I roll with Sigil of Blood and use Dodges and Blind (Maybe even Rune of Vampirism procs if I decide that way) to negate and heal damage. I can also do a combination of Backstab + Mug to burst into people (Full zerker gear) to either outright kill them (GC’s and upleveled players) or put them on the defensive (Thus reducing damage inflicted on me)

Taril.8619:

Brassnautilus.2941:

^^ you missing half the heals, that for mug and bit of fury isn’t necessarily a good bargain.

Where abouts am I missing heals?

Shadow Rejuvination? I’m not in stealth enough for it to tick very much (Especially since the main stealth I use is BP > HS so it doesn’t last very long (Doesn’t seem to benefit from Meld with Shadows) and I typically use Backstab shortly after)

Assassin’s Reward? Whilst it could be effective (BP > HS is very initiative heavy and with all the initiative regen I can spam off a lot of initiative nigh constantly) I’d lose out on something important (Quick Recovery if staying 20 into it, Mug/Opportunist + Practiced Tolerance if going 30 into Acro)

Pain Response? Very low uptime and situational clense… Not something that’d be hugely important.

Instead I roll with Sigil of Blood and use Dodges and Blind (Maybe even Rune of Vampirism procs if I decide that way) to negate and heal damage. I can also do a combination of Backstab + Mug to burst into people (Full zerker gear) to either outright kill them (GC’s and upleveled players) or put them on the defensive (Thus reducing damage inflicted on me)

Just a side note; BP→HS stealth is just as long as CnD stealth, and indeed gets the Meld with shadows bonus. It feels shorter because the stealth starts the moment you hit HS (if doing so from inside BP), but if you check, you’ll see you get 4 ticks of healing from Shadow Rejuv (meaning 4s of stealth) – in fact, you’ll generally get more Shadow Rejuv ticks from BP→HS, since there’s more maneuvering to be done (again, generally) to get behind your target than if you had used CnD.

I’ve found that opportunist and Infusion of shadow are generally enough to keep my init at an acceptable level (running 25/15/30/0/0)

evilapprentice.6379:

you’ll see you get 4 ticks of healing from Shadow Rejuv (meaning 4s of stealth)

4 ticks would imply a 3 second stealth as you get a tick upon entering stealth.

Also looking at the stealth buff, the BP>HS gives me only 3 seconds with MwS (So it’s not my timing being thrown off by the immediate stealthing rather than the stealth upon hitting with CnD)

Taril.8619:

evilapprentice.6379:

you’ll see you get 4 ticks of healing from Shadow Rejuv (meaning 4s of stealth)

4 ticks would imply a 3 second stealth as you get a tick upon entering stealth.

Also looking at the stealth buff, the BP>HS gives me only 3 seconds with MwS (So it’s not my timing being thrown off by the immediate stealthing rather than the stealth upon hitting with CnD)

Hmmm, I recall CnD also only giving 4 ticks, though perhaps I am mistaken.
Is it possible that Leap Finisher→Smoke field stealth is only 2s base?
I’ve never run D/P without at least 15 points in SA, so I’m not sure.

evilapprentice.6379:

Is it possible that Leap Finisher->Smoke field stealth is only 2s base?
I’ve never run D/P without at least 15 points in SA, so I’m not sure.

According to http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo it’s 3 second base.

Taril.8619:

evilapprentice.6379:

Is it possible that Leap Finisher->Smoke field stealth is only 2s base?
I’ve never run D/P without at least 15 points in SA, so I’m not sure.

According to http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo it’s 3 second base.

I’ve learned not to trust the Wiki (See my post about “Why doesn’t black powder block ranged attacks like smoke fields are supposed to?”)

So, either MwS doesn’t work correctly with BP→HS, or the wiki is incorrect.

evilapprentice.6379:

So, either MwS doesn’t work correctly with BP->HS, or the wiki is incorrect.

Tested BP>HS in the Mists with a 0/0/0/0/0 build and the stealth lasts 3 seconds.

Meaning MwS doesn’t affect it (Also the wiki is correct).

Taril.8619:

evilapprentice.6379:

So, either MwS doesn’t work correctly with BP->HS, or the wiki is incorrect.

Tested BP>HS in the Mists with a 0/0/0/0/0 build and the stealth lasts 3 seconds.

Meaning MwS doesn’t affect it (Also the wiki is correct).

Hmm that’s good to know ty. Funny thing is shouldn’t it? Isn’t that a bug considering of stealth trait work with the combo?

Been playing variations of D/P and having tons of fun, what are your guys opinion on DP compared to D/D? With a primary focus on backstab and getting the trait with 100% crit while stealthed, you could forgoe some precision gear to go more vit/toughness heavy gear since you get guranteed crits in stealth for backstab. Any thoughts?

The main difference between D/P and D/D is the trade off of Cloak & Dagger with Head Shot and Black Powder. IMO the benefits of D/P are far far greater than losing CnD, since you can get stealth through comboing anyway (and it is so much easier to land). The classic burst combo of Steal (mug) + CnD + Backstab works too. You just replace CnD with Heartseeker and it basically does the same thing. Just remember to press F1 before your heartseeker’s animation finishes.

I use D/P as well with a 0/30/30/10/0 build; it works pretty well and lets me have less precision in favor of massive amounts of toughness and crit damage. However I’ve slotted ruby orbs (for the crit damage) and devoted 30 points to precision so auto-attacking hits pretty hard anyway.

LethalConcept.4593:

Been playing variations of D/P and having tons of fun, what are your guys opinion on DP compared to D/D? With a primary focus on backstab and getting the trait with 100% crit while stealthed, you could forgoe some precision gear to go more vit/toughness heavy gear since you get guranteed crits in stealth for backstab. Any thoughts?

A guildie plays d/p with the Hidden Killer trait and lots of valkyrie gear so that his backstabs always crit. He seems to enjoy it quite a bit, but as mentioned earlier, utilizing auto-attack to apply pressure is effective and costs zero initiative. By running a lot of precision, and instead taking those traits in a survivability-based tree, you’re boosting the damage on your auto-attacks quite a bit.

That said, I run all zerker gear except my head and legs (they just aren’t efficient for trading crit dmg % for other stats), where I supplement my 30 SA and 30 acro with PVT gear. I still end up over 3000 atk, I’m still critting tons, and my crit dmg is some where around 80% (unsure off the top of my head right now).

Taril.8619:

I’ve just swapped to a 10/20/20/20/0 D/P build.

Mug/Side Strikes/Practiced Tolerance/Master of Deception/Infusion of Shadow/Fleet Shadow/Quick Recovery

Trying to maximise Initiative gain (Infusion of Shadow, Opportunist, Quick Recovery + Infiltrator’s Signet) whilst still having some on demand burst (Mug, Backstab, 20% crit damage from Critical Strikes traits) and some defence (Practiced Tolerance + Master of Deception)

Whilst Deception skills can be unecessary a lot of the time, I roll with Shadow Refuge and Blinding Powder. Shadow Refuge with lower cooldown can be used as a heal in combat and also an escape mechanism, Blinding Powder can be used while stunned and is amazing for survivability (Blind the next attack that comes after stun/knockdown and be in stealth after getting up to move away from a target)

Not decided whether to roll with Hide in Shadows + Ruby Orbs (For damaging condi removal + extra crit damage) or Withdraw + Vampirism runes (Withdraw being instant, short cooldown and working well with the ~950 damage + healing from Vampirism runes especially with the ease of access to stealth (Don’t need to hit a target with BP > HS)

Combat should be a mix of offensive abilities such as Shadow Shot + Auto’s with the ability to get some repeated Backstabs off if necessary (Along with Smoke field for blinds)

you are looking at shadow arts and acrobatics as pure defensive specs, but they really not.
shadow’s rejuvenation and assasin’s reward don’t do well bringing you all the way up from bottom, but they are extremely consistent fillers. 1k here and there, before you knew it you’d be back to full pool, which gives you 5% crit chance from keen observer, a much more consistent bonus than fury or quickness from crit line.
the 2 traits together also increase efficiency of your double/tripple/quad crossing bp tremendously. Without these traits, doing so only remove conditions, now you not only filling up at double speed, you’d be getting 12-14 stacks of might from that 4-5s of safety, which then goes directly to your backstab….

adding 10% dmg bonus from fluid strikes, it’s almost a net gain of heals when you max out shadow and acrobatics instead of traiting directly into critical strikes or deadly arts, and these damage bonuses are far more consistent than fury and quickness.

Lastly, when you only have 10 pts to spend between deadly arts, critical strikes and trickery lines, getting critical strike 3 is the best option mathematically.

btw, shadow refuge at the expanse of infiltrator’s signet is a bad trade imo
using signet of shadow in wvw instead of ambush traps i can understand
we are d/p, we don’t need those lousy 1 click stealths. Stuns create the only dangerous situation for us, use every breakstun you’ve got.

Taril.8619:

evilapprentice.6379:

So, either MwS doesn’t work correctly with BP->HS, or the wiki is incorrect.

Tested BP>HS in the Mists with a 0/0/0/0/0 build and the stealth lasts 3 seconds.

Meaning MwS doesn’t affect it (Also the wiki is correct).

I posted this yesterday in the Bug Reports section of the forums

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Thief-Stealth-Smoke-field-leap/first#post1619047

Brassnautilus.2941:

you are looking at shadow arts and acrobatics as pure defensive specs, but they really not.

I’m looking at Shadow Arts and Acrobatics as purely for initiative. The +2 init on stealth and the +2 init per 10 seconds really adds a lot to an encounter (More Shadow Shots, more BP>HS>BS combos)

The additional Toughness, Vitality and Dodges (Through Feline Grace) is just a side effect)

Brassnautilus.2941:

shadow’s rejuvenation and assasin’s reward don’t do well bringing you all the way up from bottom, but they are extremely consistent fillers. 1k here and there, before you knew it you’d be back to full pool, which gives you 5% crit chance from keen observer, a much more consistent bonus than fury or quickness from crit line.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation in my gear and build = 313 health per second (I stealth for about 2 seconds at most = 939 Health when I BP>HS>BS which isn’t that often as it’s a predictable and easily counterable way of attacking)

Assassin’s Reward = 76 Health per initiative spent = 228 for Heartseeker, 304 for Shadow Strike and 456 for Black Powder. Whilst it would add up over time I’d have to give up either 100 Power + Mug, 100 Precision + 10% crit damage + Initiative Proc chance on crit + 5% of Precision as Vitality (Valuable in Zerker gear) or my 2 Init per 10 seconds which doesn’t seem like a decent trade as with the amount of blinds and dodges I have I can avoid most damage and the burst can put someone on the defensive.

I don’t get Fury nor Quickness from the critical strikes line (I don’t know why everyone keeps assuming I do, even when I’ve listed which traits I’ve taken, I have the 7% crit chance when Flanking and the Precision/Vitality conversion) as it’s too unreliable to be of any use in my playstyle.

Brassnautilus.2941:

the 2 traits together also increase efficiency of your double/tripple/quad crossing bp tremendously. Without these traits, doing so only remove conditions, now you not only filling up at double speed, you’d be getting 12-14 stacks of might from that 4-5s of safety, which then goes directly to your backstab….

I don’t play perma-stealth Backstab or nothing build. I don’t sit in stealth for long periods of time, I don’t spam stealth and therefore don’t take the “X bonus in stealth” traits (Especially since they proc every 3 seconds and BP>HS lasts at most 3 seconds meaning to get the bonus you have to not Backstab and wait for stealth to wear off)

Brassnautilus.2941:

adding 10% dmg bonus from fluid strikes, it’s almost a net gain of heals when you max out shadow and acrobatics instead of traiting directly into critical strikes or deadly arts, and these damage bonuses are far more consistent than fury and quickness.

Offensive benefits from going an extra 10 points into SA and Acro = Occasional Might stack when stealthing (35 Power and condition damage per Might stack) + 10% damage when endurance is not full.

Offensive benefits from traiting into DA and Critical Strikes = 11 Seconds of Poison on Steal (Damage + Heal reduction), Steal does damage with a 1.5 coefficient (For comparison, Backstab from behind has a 1.6 coefficient), 200 Precision, 20% Critical Damage, 7% critical chance when flanking, 5% critical chance when above 90% health, chance on crit to gain initiative.

Most of these are static and controlled, the only ones that aren’t are the critical chance ones but with 56% base critical chance it’s not such a big deal.

Brassnautilus.2941:

Lastly, when you only have 10 pts to spend between deadly arts, critical strikes and trickery lines, getting critical strike 3 is the best option mathematically.

I don’t know, I kinda prefer the 100 Power, Poison and Damage on Steal as far as controlled burst rather than the 100 Precision, 10% critical damage and 20% damage on a target that’s below 50% health (You know, the point where HS already hits like a truck and a nice Backstab/Mug crit could finish a lot of people off)

If I was going to be doing mainly PvE then 30 into Critical Strikes would be far superior (20% more damage when below 50% health is much better when a target is below 50% for a lot longer rather than a few more hits) but for PvP and WvW the extra burst and control (Via -33% healing due to poison) tends to be better.

Brassnautilus.2941:

btw, shadow refuge at the expanse of infiltrator’s signet is a bad trade imo
using signet of shadow in wvw instead of ambush traps i can understand
we are d/p, we don’t need those lousy 1 click stealths. Stuns create the only dangerous situation for us, use every breakstun you’ve got.

I roll with Infiltrator’s Signet (Signet of Shadows in WvW), Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge.

Infiltrator’s Signet is a stun break.
Blinding Powder can be used while crowd controlled (Stun, Knockdown, Daze) and causes a Blind + Stealth (Allows you to reposition unnoticed after the effect wears off)
Shadow Refuge is too invaluable and will never leave my utility bar.

I’ve never been chain CC’d to death, even by GC Hammer Warriors purely due to Blinding Powder.

Blinding Powder can also be used to extend Stealth as it doesn’t need to attack and can be used for instant stealth for times when you either need the stealth now and not after BP>HS or times when you don’t have enough initiative for BP>HS.

I typed a lengthy reply but it got deleted by accident, so let me give you a TL:DL version.

You are using the setup (P/D) wrong Taril. This setup was based on the stealth producing concept, which you don’t take advantage of.

" times when you either need the stealth now and not after BP>HS or times when you don’t have enough initiative for BP>HS."
Why are you using init if you weren’t stealthing? HS spam?
You get the init return from producing stealth dude.

and WvW is hardly a good evaluation for a build or setup. Go play tourney against teams with titles (meaning everyone of their players had 150 win class title), they will stun you and you will need to stealth. You can get away with bad playing and bad builds in WvW because majority of the players in there are bads or new. A lot of them weren’t even 80…

D/P draws strength from stealth. If you don’t like the concept, then play a different build or weapons setup. Stop spamming them HS with D/P then complaining you aint got enough initiatives. HS does not return ini.

Brassnautilus.2941:

I typed a lengthy reply but it got deleted by accident, so let me give you a TL:DL version.

You are using the setup (P/D) wrong Taril. This setup was based on the stealth producing concept, which you don’t take advantage of.

" times when you either need the stealth now and not after BP>HS or times when you don’t have enough initiative for BP>HS."
Why are you using init if you weren’t stealthing? HS spam?
You get the init return from producing stealth dude.

and WvW is hardly a good evaluation for a build or setup. Go play tourney against teams with titles (meaning everyone of their players had 150 win class title), they will stun you and you will need to stealth. You can get away with bad playing and bad builds in WvW because majority of the players in there are bads or new. A lot of them weren’t even 80…

D/P draws strength from stealth. If you don’t like the concept, then play a different build or weapons setup. Stop spamming them HS with D/P then complaining you aint got enough initiatives. HS does not return ini.

The new shadowshot is actually pretty boss – much better for closing a big gap than say BP→HS and approach. Its also good for targets over 50%, and those occasions where making your target miss a big attack is worth more than doing superior damage with HS. And of course there’s headshot. Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, just pointing out that D/P has a ton of stuff to spend init on other than BP→HS for stealth.

Someone also 101 school on me on how to synergize and utilize S/D as the second weapon set. Mainly the sword part. Thx

Brassnautilus.2941:

You are using the setup (P/D) wrong Taril. This setup was based on the stealth producing concept, which you don’t take advantage of.

" times when you either need the stealth now and not after BP>HS or times when you don’t have enough initiative for BP>HS."
Why are you using init if you weren’t stealthing? HS spam?
You get the init return from producing stealth dude.

I do take advantage of the stealth. But only when it’s the right time for it, I don’t just mindlessly spam BP>HS>BS and hope to win using 3 buttons.

That playstyle is terrible, and won’t beat anyone whom can actually play the game at all (For example the other day I was 1v1 with a Ranger who wasn’t very good and yet would still dodge every backstab attempt I tried due to the predictability of the combo)

Initiative can be used up on:
Heartseeker on low health targets, to either apply pressure or to get to a target (Or finish someone off if they’re really low)
Shadow Shot (Does pretty decent damage now + Blind + Shadow Step)
Headshot to interrupt big attacks/heals so I won’t get smashed in the face
Black Powder > Heartseeker combo (Yes going stealth gives back init, but only 2 when the combo costs 9. That’s a net loss of 7 initiative)

Been messing around with D/P and S/D sets on a ~0/20/30/10 (moves around between CS and Acro). Solo roaming in WvW I’m finding that D/P is really only useful for finishing. Black Powder just doesn’t mitigate as much damage as I thought it would, and a lot of people don’t mindlessly stand in the circle. Any thoughts?

Volatility.6729:

Been messing around with D/P and S/D sets on a ~0/20/30/10 (moves around between CS and Acro). Solo roaming in WvW I’m finding that D/P is really only useful for finishing. Black Powder just doesn’t mitigate as much damage as I thought it would, and a lot of people don’t mindlessly stand in the circle. Any thoughts?

Try utilising Shadow Shot a bit more, if it lands it’s a guaranteed Blind and also some decent damage (I’ve been critting about 3-4.5k with it)

Black Powder isn’t really a defensive ability, it’s more of a prelude to stealth (And high backstab damage) or a deterrent (If facing a melee opponent they’ll not want to get close, a good melee will still melee you from the edge of it though)

I’ve been surviving pretty well through applying so many blinds to people through Shadow Shot + Black Powder on top of them (So they usually get ~2 blinds from BP) combined with extra blinds + stealth from Blinding Powder. This is even in a 30/30/0/10/0 build I’ve been messing around in (1v1 in the middle of an enemy camp, 1v2 and some 1v3 fights)

Taril.8619:

Initiative can be used up on:
Heartseeker on low health targets, to either apply pressure or to get to a target (Or finish someone off if they’re really low)
Shadow Shot (Does pretty decent damage now + Blind + Shadow Step)
Headshot to interrupt big attacks/heals so I won’t get smashed in the face
Black Powder > Heartseeker combo (Yes going stealth gives back init, but only 2 when the combo costs 9. That’s a net loss of 7 initiative)

spam more hs yo

I am going to get a lot of hate with this (justifiably) but after trying it a couple of times in SPvP I would like to share a couple of personal points;

I consider D/P to be a purely defensive build/support due to the following.

• It does not maximize Stealth Tactics as D/D does with C/D.
• It is better investing in mobility (sigil) and non-stealth survivability (withdraw) as well as HP amulets/runes.
• Autoattacks should be heavily focused with precision in this build since the backstab combo acts as a finisher and not as an opening. Therefore investing in Precision amulets/runes.
• Shortbow is not ideal to use with D/P due to being low on initiative. P/P should replace it.

I am still mindkitten trying to work out what are D/P true strength for an all around encounter experience in SPvP (and not having to change everything in each match).

So I have got two questions;

What traits, runes and amulet I need for a purely precision build (so my auttoattacks hit as hard as possible?)
Is there a build set up (traits, runes and amulet) to balance precision with defence (hp/touchness/ect)?

Authority.6145:

What traits, runes and amulet I need for a purely precision build (so my auttoattacks hit as hard as possible?)
Is there a build set up (traits, runes and amulet) to balance precision with defence (hp/touchness/ect)?

Highest auto-attacks:
30 VI, IX, ??
30 III, X, XI
0
0
10 IV

Using Berserker Amulet + Divinity Runes. Though while it would maximise damage dealt through auto-attacks there’s no survivability.

For a more defensive build with high crits I’d say something like:

0
30 III, VI, XI
10 IV
30 III, IX, X
0

10 III
20 III, VI
20 IV, V
20 III, IX
0

0
30 III, VI, XI
30 IV, V, XI
0
10 IV

Berserker amulet and Divinity/Scholar/Eagle runes (Build/Runes to playstyle)