Guild Wars 2

So, before I go on a QQ rant about how permastealth is OP or some other nonsense, I wanted to put the question out to the thief community to see if there are any thoughts: is permastealth counterable? I’ve been playing relatively hardcore since September, and while I can usually fight a permastealth d/p thief to a draw (or at least get away), I’ve seen the build troll entire parties (and small zergs) in WvW when used by a skilled player. It’s particularly difficult for me given I’m a condition build, since Shadow’s Embrace condi cleanse + constant stealth is ridic, but even in general is there a way to counter this short of simply running over them with a zerg’s worth of CC? Best-guess aoes aren’t really doing the trick. Do I just need to always have stealth disrupters and supply on hand? It seems odd to me I would need to carry around a siege trap to keep up with another build, but I’m kind of at my wit’s end as to what one can do when the enemy is so frequently invisible you can’t even target them.

cyyrix.6105:

Theives will tell you to use your weapon skills/utilities to prevent them from getting into stealth in the first place. Interrupt the stealth procs and burst as much as you can between.

Considering most interrupts (unless ur a build lucky enough to have one on a weapon skill) often have cd’s of 15-30 seconds, while black powder -> heartseeker can be spammed as long as initiative is available (which it always is with these builds that are traited/skilled for initiative regen), this isn’t a very appealing argument. Already attempting to do so as there’s nothing else really available aside from the aoe spam, but yeah… not exactly effective or balanced for the rate at which a thief can stealth.

Geiir.7603:

My best tip? Walk into the black powder and see this poor thief reveal himself as he tries to jump through it again for extended stealth.

This would require standing within a few steps of a thief to actually cover the distance in the split second before the heart seeker, which is difficult if they’re visible and nigh impossible if they are already chaining stealth. Any thief good enough to use d/p effectively either shadow steps or heartseekers away to put distance before shooting off the bp.

No. It doesn’t beat all. It just trolls really well.

Theives will tell you to use your weapon skills/utilities to prevent them from getting into stealth in the first place. Unfortunately this is easier said than done. Their ability to attempt to gain stealth will outpace your ability to prevent it, unless you’re also a thief.

Still, it’s your best bet. Interrupt the stealth procs and burst as much as you can between.

Depends on what class you are. My advice against a D/P thief is too knock them out of their BP. If you’re a necro, fear them after they put BP down, or if you’re a warrior knock em out of it with Hammer 4. If you’re a necro, save staff 5 for when they SR for an easy kill, but other than that I can’t really say more until you say what class you play. Just keep in mind that D/P is predictable. If they back off for a split second, chances are they’re going to BP and Hs to you. If this happens, don’t panic. As you most likely know, keep moving around to make an actual BS harder. When they come out of stealth, get ready to CC em right away.

Reaven.3958:

So, before I go on a QQ rant about how permastealth is OP or some other nonsense, I wanted to put the question out to the thief community to see if there are any thoughts: is permastealth counterable? I’ve been playing relatively hardcore since September, and while I can usually fight a permastealth d/p thief to a draw (or at least get away), I’ve seen the build troll entire parties (and small zergs) in WvW when used by a skilled player. It’s particularly difficult for me given I’m a condition build, since Shadow’s Embrace condi cleanse + constant stealth is ridic, but even in general is there a way to counter this short of simply running over them with a zerg’s worth of CC? Best-guess aoes aren’t really doing the trick. Do I just need to always have stealth disrupters and supply on hand? It seems odd to me I would need to carry around a siege trap to keep up with another build, but I’m kind of at my wit’s end as to what one can do when the enemy is so frequently invisible you can’t even target them.

Also realize that if he can’t kill you right away and just hides and resets, etc it really means he lost. And now you may have another new fight. If he follows you around and eventually kills you, he’s still like 1win- 3 losses, etc.

That’s how I feel as a thief. If I can’t kill someone and have to reset, I feel like I lost. Even if I stalk and gank them later or something. I still know I lost the other encounter. Any thief who doesn’t feel that way is kinda in denial IMHO.

D/P shadow arts build is strong at surviving, but does not beat everything. It is more of a zerker buster than anything else. The only thing you can expect is shadow refuge (keep a knock back or AoE fear for this!) and that if black powder goes down, he will heartseek through it. My best tip? Walk into the black powder and see this poor thief reveal himself as he tries to jump through it again for extended stealth. He need to keep a longer period of stealth to survive larger condition bursts.

If you aren’t 1v1ing just bring in a glass Ranger with Sick’em and wolf. When the BP goes down cast Sick’em and send in the wolf to f2, while rapid firing the thief to death.

Reaven: it is true that many decent thieves will try to get some space between the two of you before getting more stealth. But the fact is that 90% of the thieves you encounter in WvW is utter crap. That’s at least my experience.

You can still spot the red ring from black powder even if they’re invisible. This means that if you manage to get inside that you either wast their initiative or they get revealed. Both is pretty devastating for a d/p thief, especially in WvW where they usually don’t run trickery for extra initiative.

Try our traps then XD our utilities, I’m talking about needle trap and tripwire after that go glass and stab the kitten out of him once he’s knocked down. It’s risky business though cause he might be able to take you out quickly as well. This was how a glass cannon friend of mine take thieves like these out lol it’s seriously impressive but almost impossible to pull off. Permanent stealth meaning they use CnD against walls.

Seurot.6509:

Also realize that if he can’t kill you right away and just hides and resets, etc it really means he lost. And now you may have another new fight. If he follows you around and eventually kills you, he’s still like 1win- 3 losses, etc.

That’s how I feel as a thief. If I can’t kill someone and have to reset, I feel like I lost. Even if I stalk and gank them later or something. I still know I lost the other encounter. Any thief who doesn’t feel that way is kinda in denial IMHO.

Yeah but, you know, when other classes lose,they actually die, right?

Sure they may feel as if they lost, but it’s annoying as kitten.

With a spec like this one:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAoa4Yl0Mp8pdPx0J0PNhOBt9tDQF4OFX4Ed1DA-T1BFABCcGAiZ/hsUCeo6POp8LN9DA8QACAgAsz2sObzgje0je0je0u5Nv5Nv5NLFg5CtA-w
…it’s basically impossible to get killed by anything that is not a group of 4 full zerk, DP Trickery thieves in TS who decide to focus you. You can even troll zergs with this build, as you are pretty much unkillable in wvw, and you can still kill any zerk class very easily.

It’s heavily influenced by matchups.

I dislike any perma-stealth build because I think SA is too rewarding and the rest of the trait lines/build options out there are not. It’s really not so much the stealth that keeps thieves alive but Shadow Arts letting them be so durable while under the effects of stealth from rejuv or resilience + condition cleansing.

Against a good one… there really isn’t much of a counter, to be honest. It’s why I’m a big proponent of reducing the effectiveness of shadow arts in favor of improving the effectiveness of the class slightly across the board for all builds, allowing for SA players to play their stealthing builds while facing the same bonuses/penalties as non-stealth builds.

The problem lies more with too much necessary power/basic class functionality in the SA line synergizing too well with stealth moreso than D/P itself as a weapon set or stealth builds in general.

I find the d/p trickery setup to be more annoying than SA. Most SA thieves you can predict and burst down. Those trickery kittens have plenty of utility to troll you.

Most SA thieves are also bad and do not comprehend the basics of damage avoidance/skill/encounter interactions due to SA acting as a crutch for their lack of playing ability.

[quote=4787270;Reaven.3958:

cyyrix.6105:

Theives will tell you to use your weapon skills/utilities to prevent them from getting into stealth in the first place. Interrupt the stealth procs and burst as much as you can between.

Considering most interrupts (unless ur a build lucky enough to have one on a weapon skill) often have cd’s of 15-30 seconds, while black powder -> heartseeker can be spammed as long as initiative is available (which it always is with these builds that are traited/skilled for initiative regen), this isn’t a very appealing argument. Already attempting to do so as there’s nothing else really available aside from the aoe spam, but yeah… not exactly effective or balanced for the rate at which a thief can stealth.

[/quote]

Coming from a d/p thief, that couple of seconds between the black powder and heartseeker feels like a lifetime. There’s plenty of time there to interrupt the stealth. If you are successful then they are down 6-9initiative (6 if you interrupt before the hs, 9 if you interrupt during), and if they are traited for shadow arts they probably dont have the extra 3. This means they will be left with about 4 initiative. Thats quite a bit of time to get some burst in or blow some of their utilities.

DeceiverX.8361:

Most SA thieves are also bad and do not comprehend the basics of damage avoidance/skill/encounter interactions due to SA acting as a crutch for their lack of playing ability.

This is true. My current WvW spec is 6/0/2/0/6. Lots of control and good damage, and much more difficult to play than SA builds. Shadow Arts is the main problem regarding players thinking thief is OP. It is too rewarding simply because it make bad thieves look good and good thieves are just invincible with such a build…

OP, SA builds can carry thieves hard, especially if they have easy access to stealth like d/p but you can still kill them. Knockback from bp or interrupt their leap from bp and you can burst him down. Most thieves have very predictable gameplay so it’s not that hard to cc them.

Geiir.7603:

DeceiverX.8361:

Most SA thieves are also bad and do not comprehend the basics of damage avoidance/skill/encounter interactions due to SA acting as a crutch for their lack of playing ability.

This is true. My current WvW spec is 6/0/2/0/6. Lots of control and good damage, and much more difficult to play than SA builds. Shadow Arts is the main problem regarding players thinking thief is OP. It is too rewarding simply because it make bad thieves look good and good thieves are just invincible with such a build…

Yeah I started disliking full SA playstyle ever since I couldn’t really hurt any good players due to the lack of damage and by the time I’m don in stealth my enemy will either be healed or done with their cool downs. I’m using 06206 d/p now, it’s not easy but I prefer(wvw) it.

I don’t think the usual SA build lacks dmg (overall) since it stacks might with gm minor. VS good players SA builds lack control.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Most thieves have very predictable gameplay so it’s not that hard to cc them.

‘perma’ stealth thieves feel OP until… you meet people that know exactly how to counter. then they become useless :> Rather than building to counter them, most builds already can. You only need to counter them with how you play!

Trickery is a thief’s most OP trait line