Guild Wars 2

What kind of stat spread are people going for with the standard x/30/30/x/0?

I don’t play glass cannon, but more of a mixed set of gear. I have about 30 crit chance, 80 crit dmg, 18,000 hp, 1700 ish toughness etc. Either runes of the wurm or divinity depending on the mood.

Kind of curious what more DD and DP thieves are doing, especially soloers/small group roamers.

screenshots of your character H would be sweet.

- D/D thief
- Zerker weapons (Sigil Of Fire, Sigil Of Bloodlust)
- Zerker trinkets
- Valkyrie gear ( Ruby Orbs)
- 0/30/30/10/0
- 48% crit change & 107% crit dmg (I think)
- 16k hp

Aeneasx.1589:

What kind of stat spread are people going for with the standard x/30/30/x/0?

I don’t play glass cannon, but more of a mixed set of gear. I have about 30 crit chance, 80 crit dmg, 18,000 hp, 1700 ish toughness etc. Either runes of the wurm or divinity depending on the mood.

Kind of curious what more DD and DP thieves are doing, especially soloers/small group roamers.

screenshots of your character H would be sweet.

If I’m running d/d I prefer to go 10/30/30/0/0 with valk armor, zerker trinkets and weapons, and ruby orbs or divinity runes (depending on your gold)

For dagger/pistol I go full zerk but trait 0/20/30/20/0 and end up with 56%crit chance, 101%crit damage almost 14k health (with practiced tolerance and whatever wvw buffs are on).

I’ll post a screenshot when I’m home

Here is my dagger/pistol guide/build: http://intothemists.com/guides/307-daggerpistol_backstab_by_rand_x_al_thor

Soldiers hat body legs, Berserker everything else, then pick weapons based on whether you want more more EHP or not (Soldiers > Valk > Berserkers). This comes out better mathematically than just using a bunch of Valk and Berserkers for EHP and Damage if your Backstabs do not exceed 50%~ of your total damage if using Hidden Killer. Quick rule of thumb: if you do an auto attack round and CnD after every BS, your damage split will be 50/50, do more attacks than that, like a single Heart seeker, or an extra CnD because of bad positioning, and your BS does less than 50% total. With Executioner Soldiers mix always wins.

- 3k Attack / 51% Crit Chance / 88% Crit Damage (with foods, but not the most expensive ones)
- 2.3k Armor / 16k Health

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYVlUmSPHdy9E+JFy2jdqC5JuCFlXBwqTRWZVA-jwyAYLioRKCIRBisAk9KiGbboIas6FMV5iqVuA2dAvBjWtQAj3AA-e

Only amulet is Ascended.

You can use any weapon combination you want. Utilities are set for dungeon/fractal, change them for Power+Precision+Movement signets for general PvE.

here’s my d/d + sb build

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=Ve;4Rwk0-J5VOkd0;9;4JJ9-J58-25-3;345-4Nl0-J;0V19cV19cG-GTV636-c_;0WV_We1kYq3w_63-0N-5-7VNX8a;9;9;9;9;9;55k3B

I dont know a nice way to put this, but UrMom and Namiren… You guys are terrible at building gear sets. Please dont tell people to use those again.

Im starting to feel like I need to make a new math heavy thread about how to properly add defensive stats to your build again. All 3 other people who suggested it in this thread are doing it inefficiently and giving up more damage than they need to.

wish.1027:

I dont know a nice way to put this, but UrMom and Namiren… You guys are terrible at building gear sets. Please dont tell people to use those again.

Im starting to feel like I need to make a new math heavy thread about how to properly add defensive stats to your build again. All 3 people who suggested it in this thread are doing it inefficiently and giving up more damage than they need to.

aight man thanks. The guy asked what others are using, and this is what i use, haven’t had any issues with it. Sorry we can’t be all l33tskillz like you.

Edit: to the op i just re-read your post and realized you were asking for x/30/30/x/0, sorry missed that and my setup isn’t in that window so disregard.

UrMom.4205:

Sorry we can’t be all l33tskillz like you.

But you can, Ive made tons of posts, just go read through them. Start by clicking the Thief tag in my sig.

You just have to recognize who is really trying to help and who is simply talking about things they have no idea about. General rule of thumb is to ask everyone who says X is better than Y for the math if you think it could be questionable, and ignore them completely when they cant/dont provide it.

wish.1027:

UrMom.4205:

Sorry we can’t be all l33tskillz like you.

But you can, Ive made tons of posts, just go read through them. Start by clicking the Thief tag in my sig.

You just have to recognize who is really trying to help and who is simply talking about things they have no idea about. General rule of thumb is to ask everyone who says X is better than Y for the math if you think it could be questionable, and ignore them completely when they cant/dont provide it.

I wasn’t saying my build is better than anyone else’s, i was just sharing my build. Instead of posting a reply saying you’re terrible, etc. Why not give suggestions and explanations as to why something in the build you see wouldn’t work or be inefficient? And no “go look at my thief builds in my sig” aren’t suggestions.

wish.1027:

I dont know a nice way to put this, but UrMom and Namiren… You guys are terrible at building gear sets. Please dont tell people to use those again.

Im starting to feel like I need to make a new math heavy thread about how to properly add defensive stats to your build again. All 3 other people who suggested it in this thread are doing it inefficiently and giving up more damage than they need to.

What is inefficient about my builds..?

pantsforbirds.9032:

wish.1027:

I dont know a nice way to put this, but UrMom and Namiren… You guys are terrible at building gear sets. Please dont tell people to use those again.

Im starting to feel like I need to make a new math heavy thread about how to properly add defensive stats to your build again. All 3 other people who suggested it in this thread are doing it inefficiently and giving up more damage than they need to.

What is inefficient about my builds..?

You get more damage reduction and EHP from Soldiers compared to Valk, and you can achieve higher EHP and Damage mixing Berserkers and Soldiers than Valk and Berserkers because of the distribution of Crit Damage and Crit Chance you achieve.

UrMom.4205:

quit being dumb and trying to make others read old posts

You’re right, I should just make a new super comprehensive thread about correctly gearing your characters, then point at it whenever I say anything from now on forever. Give me a day or two =3

wish.1027:

pantsforbirds.9032:

wish.1027:

I dont know a nice way to put this, but UrMom and Namiren… You guys are terrible at building gear sets. Please dont tell people to use those again.

Im starting to feel like I need to make a new math heavy thread about how to properly add defensive stats to your build again. All 3 other people who suggested it in this thread are doing it inefficiently and giving up more damage than they need to.

What is inefficient about my builds..?

You get more damage reduction and EHP from Soldiers compared to Valk, and you can achieve higher EHP and Damage mixing Berserkers and Soldiers than Valk and Berserkers because of the distribution of Crit Damage and Crit Chance you achieve.

UrMom.4205:

quit being dumb and trying to make others read old posts

You’re right, I should just make a new super comprehensive thread about correctly gearing your characters, then point at it whenever I say anything from now on forever. Give me a day or two =3

lol ok i’m done with this conversation.

wish.1027:

pantsforbirds.9032:

wish.1027:

I dont know a nice way to put this, but UrMom and Namiren… You guys are terrible at building gear sets. Please dont tell people to use those again.

Im starting to feel like I need to make a new math heavy thread about how to properly add defensive stats to your build again. All 3 other people who suggested it in this thread are doing it inefficiently and giving up more damage than they need to.

What is inefficient about my builds..?

You get more damage reduction and EHP from Soldiers compared to Valk, and you can achieve higher EHP and Damage mixing Berserkers and Soldiers than Valk and Berserkers because of the distribution of Crit Damage and Crit Chance you achieve.

UrMom.4205:

quit being dumb and trying to make others read old posts

You’re right, I should just make a new super comprehensive thread about correctly gearing your characters, then point at it whenever I say anything from now on forever. Give me a day or two =3

I would love to see this.

wish.1027:

pantsforbirds.9032:

wish.1027:

I dont know a nice way to put this, but UrMom and Namiren… You guys are terrible at building gear sets. Please dont tell people to use those again.

Im starting to feel like I need to make a new math heavy thread about how to properly add defensive stats to your build again. All 3 other people who suggested it in this thread are doing it inefficiently and giving up more damage than they need to.

What is inefficient about my builds..?

You get more damage reduction and EHP from Soldiers compared to Valk, and you can achieve higher EHP and Damage mixing Berserkers and Soldiers than Valk and Berserkers because of the distribution of Crit Damage and Crit Chance you achieve.

Thought I should expand on this a bit.

Power increase:
(oldpower + addedpower) / (oldpower) =1.XXYYYY
XX.YYY%= %damage increase

Crit damage increase:
(1.5 + oldcritdamage + addedcritdamage) / (1.5 + oldcritdamage) =1.XXYYY
XX.YYY * .critrate = %damage increase

Precision increase:
21 precision = +1% Crit chance at level 80.
Added Precision / 21 = X.YYY
X = addedcritchance
(1 + ((.5 + critdamage) * (oldcritchance + addedcritchance))) / (1 + (.5 + critdamage) * oldcritchance) =1.XXYYY
XX.YYY= %damage increase

These are the formulas for determining damage increases gained from adding power or precision or crit damage.

Adding 5% crit damage.
(1.5 + 1 + .05) / (1.5 + 1) =1.02
2*.5=1

Adding 1% crit rate.
(1 + ((.5 + 1) * (.5 + .01))) / (1 + (.5 + 1) * .5) =1.00857142857

Basically when sitting at 50%~ crit chance and 100%~ crit damage, 5% crit damage is 1%~ damage, and 1%~ crit chance is 1%~ damage. And Im advocating giving up some of your vit for toughness and some of your crit damage for crit chance. Basically Im saying to give up 10% crit damage (2% damage) for 3% crit chance (3% damage) by swapping Valk gloves/boots/shoulders to Berserkers and Valk body/hat/legs for Soldiers (which loses you 72 vit and gains 152 toughness, which will keep your ability to stay alive about the same). It’s a little more complicated than this, because you need to account for weapons and food and sigils and runes, but I assure you, my way comes out ahead for damage with slightly more EHP when you build to make the EHP the same for both builds.

Aeneasx.1589:

I would love to see this.

Is that what you wanted to see?

Also, I swear Im done editing this now.

Since I promised I wouldnt edit my earlier post anymore, Im posting to say that post assumes youre using ascended trinkets, which is all you should be building for, because you will eventually have those.

If you will not eventually have ascended gear for whatever reason, exotic rings are something you give up for defensive gear. Which slots you use for soldiers gear is determined by how much each point of crit damage costs in that slot. Exotic rings are 48 stats = 3% crit damage, 48/3=16, so each point of crit damage there costs 16 stats. Which is the same as your hat and pants (32/2=16 48/3=16) Body however costs less than 16, 72/5=14.4, weapons are 64/5=12.8 each. So if using exotics you give up rings before body or weapons, which is not correct when using Ascended gear, because the jewels are combined, and you cannot get soldiers rings with berserkers jewel ascended gear.

wish.1027:

pantsforbirds.9032:

wish.1027:

I dont know a nice way to put this, but UrMom and Namiren… You guys are terrible at building gear sets. Please dont tell people to use those again.

Im starting to feel like I need to make a new math heavy thread about how to properly add defensive stats to your build again. All 3 other people who suggested it in this thread are doing it inefficiently and giving up more damage than they need to.

What is inefficient about my builds..?

You get more damage reduction and EHP from Soldiers compared to Valk, and you can achieve higher EHP and Damage mixing Berserkers and Soldiers than Valk and Berserkers because of the distribution of Crit Damage and Crit Chance you achieve.

UrMom.4205:

quit being dumb and trying to make others read old posts

You’re right, I should just make a new super comprehensive thread about correctly gearing your characters, then point at it whenever I say anything from now on forever. Give me a day or two =3

Vitality is a much better defensive tool for thieves than toughness is. And the only reason you can go full valk armor and still have a good offensive build is the trait hidden killer. You arent going to be critting your heartseekers or auto attacks as much, but with the 100% chance to crit backstab you can see very high numbers with a decent health pool. I realize from a mathematics perspective mixing the armor set might be best, but from real life testing in wvw i find the valk armor with zerk trinkets/weapons to be a much better set.

pantsforbirds.9032:

Vitality is a much better defensive tool for thieves than toughness is. And the only reason you can go full valk armor and still have a good offensive build is the trait hidden killer. You arent going to be critting your heartseekers or auto attacks as much, but with the 100% chance to crit backstab you can see very high numbers with a decent health pool.

Silly response, I just proved Valkyrie is inferior. Here’s the turth, using soldiers mixed with Valk, your EHP is higher (you can take more hits before you die) and your regen from shadows embrace is worth more as your HP pool is lower and your toughness increased.

For an extreme example to explain, let me use this example:
Lets say you can have 20k HP and 0% damage reduction (valk) or 10k HP and 50% damage reduction (soldiers). Both of these would give you 20k EHP. Because if something hit you for 10k, it would take 2 hits to KO either setup.

Now, lets say you heal for 5k every 30 seconds, and you take 10k damage every 30 seconds. For the Valk set youd lose 10k, dropping to 10k, then regain 5k putting you at 15k, then lose 10k to 5k, then regain 5k to be back at 10k, then take 10k damage and die.

Looking at the Soldiers set you’d have 50% damage reduction, so those 10k hits would only do half of that, or 5k. So every 30 seconds youd take 5k, dropping you to 5k (10k EHP) then heal 5k (healing 10k EHP) repeatedly forever and not die.

This is an extreme example to explain why toughness is better than vitality, since WvW thieves have so much healing (shadows embrace, 330 HP/second in stealth, and a 8k heal on a 30 second timer in hide in shadows…). What youre really doing by swapping to soldiers is increasing your damage reduction by 10%~ or so, and losing 7%~ of your HP. Your total EHP will remain the same, and your damage output and damage reduction will increase as I already explained in my previous answer with math, while you make vague claims and provide no math, just that you ‘feel’ its better. Well guess what, I ‘feel’ using all level 10 power only gear at 80 increases my damage over lvl 80 berserker stat gear, so I guess that means I must be right! strong gear for everyone! forget the math that says Im wrong! I feel like Im right so I must be right!!!

The truth is that maximizing the effectiveness of your defensive gains by reducing its cost in terms of DPS loss is the best you can do. Which means using soldiers gear in the most costly stat slots for crit damage until your EHP is where you want it to be. Since Crit damage is worth the least in a typical Thief build, and power is worth the most for DPS increases in a typical build. If you dont believe me, feel free to play with the math all you want, thats why I posted it.

That is true, but the armor doesn’t reduce condition damage, and that’s a really important thing too.

wish.1027:

pantsforbirds.9032:

Vitality is a much better defensive tool for thieves than toughness is. And the only reason you can go full valk armor and still have a good offensive build is the trait hidden killer. You arent going to be critting your heartseekers or auto attacks as much, but with the 100% chance to crit backstab you can see very high numbers with a decent health pool.

Silly response, I just proved Valkyrie is inferior. Here’s the turth, using soldiers mixed with Valk, your EHP is higher (you can take more hits before you die) and your regen from shadows embrace is worth more as your HP pool is lower and your toughness increased.

For an extreme example to explain, let me use this example:
Lets say you can have 20k HP and 0% damage reduction (valk) or 10k HP and 50% damage reduction (soldiers). Both of these would give you 20k EHP. Because if something hit you for 10k, it would take 2 hits to KO either setup.

Now, lets say you heal for 5k every 30 seconds, and you take 10k damage every 30 seconds. For the Valk set youd lose 10k, dropping to 10k, then regain 5k putting you at 15k, then lose 10k to 5k, then regain 5k to be back at 10k, then take 10k damage and die.

Looking at the Soldiers set you’d have 50% damage reduction, so those 10k hits would only do half of that, or 5k. So every 30 seconds youd take 5k, dropping you to 5k (10k EHP) then heal 5k (healing 10k EHP) repeatedly forever and not die.

This is an extreme example to explain why toughness is better than vitality, since WvW thieves have so much healing (shadows embrace, 330 HP/second in stealth, and a 8k heal on a 30 second timer in hide in shadows…). What youre really doing by swapping to soldiers is increasing your damage reduction by 10%~ or so, and losing 7%~ of your HP. Your total EHP will remain the same, and your damage output and damage reduction will increase as I already explained in my previous answer with math, while you make vague claims and provide no math, just that you ‘feel’ its better. Well guess what, I ‘feel’ using all level 10 power only gear at 80 increases my damage over lvl 80 berserker stat gear, so I guess that means I must be right! strong gear for everyone! forget the math that says Im wrong! I feel like Im right so I must be right!!!

The truth is that maximizing the effectiveness of your defensive gains by reducing its cost in terms of DPS loss is the best you can do. Which means using soldiers gear in the most costly stat slots for crit damage until your EHP is where you want it to be. Since Crit damage is worth the least in a typical Thief build, and power is worth the most for DPS increases in a typical build. If you dont believe me, feel free to play with the math all you want, thats why I posted it.

I think my biggest problem with your post is how situational your math is. Your math is great theoretically, and if it was a boxing match where both playeres don’t move and just take turns swapping blows you would be completely right. I rely almost 100% on evades and blinds to mitigate damage, while you put a higher emphasis on mitigating damage through defensive stats. I trait for higher initiative so i can use more blinds, interrupts, and stealth to better help me avoid damage and if i can’t take the pressure being applied to my thief i peel using shadow steps, shadow refuge, or my stealth combo on dagger/pistol. When i gear my thief i personally shoot for 13.5-14k health with wvw buffs on. I find thats all the health i need for 1v1 or 1vx situations. The only reason valk armor would be a good idea, in my opinion, is condi damage. It gives a slight buffer for condi damage while im stealthing to clear it off of my thief it also gives you enough health to not be one shot by a lucky eviscerate. I run my thief 100% zerker gear in wvw and have absolutely no problems. I never lose a 1v1 unless the other player was simply a better player than me, or i make some terrible mistake.

I’m not saying your wrong, and i’m not saying the way i play the game is better, but i find i don’t need extra defensive stats outside of the ones i get from my traitlines. So i personally chose to take the highest damage output armor i can, but i respect someone who prefers a more balanced build as well.

Side Note: the hostility/sarcasm really isn’t needed. This is simply a discussion, and people will have differing opinions. There is no way to objectively test which stat distribution is best in actual gameplay (especially since gameplay will differ drastically from player to player). Please try to show some respect for others opinion’s and choice’s, we are all a part of the same thief community after all.

wish.1027:

You get more damage reduction and EHP from Soldiers compared to Valk, and you can achieve higher EHP and Damage mixing Berserkers and Soldiers than Valk and Berserkers because of the distribution of Crit Damage and Crit Chance you achieve.

You also get more damage reduction by avoiding the hits, and thereafter achieve higher damage because you’re not sitting in stealth healing.

Unless it’s for competitive PvP, then one really shouldn’t stress so much about Toughness vs. Vitality. Beyond solo/small-group roaming, these attrition setups (gear, traits) contribute very little to any significant objective. The longer the fight, and the more you stealth, the more time is “wasted”. When points matter, a group won’t want to be in a stale-mate.

How you’ve fostered such arrogance from this ideal, I’ll never know.

pantsforbirds.9032:

I think my biggest problem with your post is how situational your math is.

You just dont understand what I am saying and proving. Blow for blow, soldiers+berserker will always hit harder while maintaining the same EHP as a set using valkyrie+berserkers armor. It doesnt matter if you stand still or not. Every time you connect with an attack the soldiers set does more damage. I could care less if you dodge 15 times in a row between attacks, those single attacks will hit for more damage using soldiers. How exactly is that situational?

Also, none of this applies if you want to use all berserker gear, my posts were only about adding defensive stats to your gear, which people suggested doing in the thread, but suggested doing it inefficiently, so I corrected them.

pantsforbirds.9032:

Side Note: the hostility/sarcasm really isn’t needed.

The only hostility here is the hostility you made up in your mind and projected into my posts. Sarcasm is always fun though.

Barfoi.9537:

You also get more damage reduction by avoiding the hits, and thereafter achieve higher damage because you’re not sitting in stealth healing.

lulz, really? I didn’t know that.

Your response doesnt change anything Ive said though… if you add defensive stats to your gear, theres a good way to do it and a bad way to do it. Doing it the good way losses less DPS for defense than doing it the bad way, while maintaining the same EHP in both sets. You can avoid damage by dodging with either set, but soldiers will do more damage when you do connect hits compared to valkyrie.

What you guys seem to not be understanding is that while using soldiers+berserkers your damage is INCREASED compared to the damage output you get from using valkyrie with berserkers, while also INCREASING your EHP. If you didnt get it that time, you never will, so please stop posting.

Barfoi.9537:

Unless it’s for competitive PvP, then one really shouldn’t stress so much about Toughness vs. Vitality. Beyond solo/small-group roaming, these attrition setups (gear, traits) contribute very little to any significant objective. The longer the fight, and the more you stealth, the more time is “wasted”. When points matter, a group won’t want to be in a stale-mate.

Again, you maintain the same EHP in both sets, and the soldiers set has higher damage output while fighting things. Seriously, youre like Kanye West in the fishsticks episode of Southpark, PLEASE JUST GET IT!

Barfoi.9537:

How you’ve fostered such arrogance from this ideal, I’ll never know.

The only arrogance in my posts is the arrogance you projected into them.

One last thing, condition removal is how you deal with conditions, not HP. Thief has tons of condition removal, stop trying to use that as a crux to hold up your weak argument for 7% more HP.

Your setups (“Wish’s Mug/Fall”; traits, utilities) already sacrifice a great deal of potential damage, and provide no extra mobility. They look to rely entirely upon stealth to heal through the hits that simply cannot be sustainably avoided. Any gain from Soldiers vs. Valkyrie just seems insignificant due to that. It’d probably be successful for fights of attrition (with the 30 SA…), but it doesn’t even excel at that.

Out of curiosity, what do you typically use those setups for in WvW?

The only arrogance in my posts is the arrogance you projected into them.

From looking at how you’ve addressed others in other posts, then it’s not only arrogance, but ignorance as well. No biggie.

Thief has tons of condition removal

… for a cost.