Guild Wars 2

Hi guys,

So after much D/D : Shortbow play on my thief (he’s 43 atm), I just tried out a pistol offhand today… and it’s amazing. Black Powder, AA for a couple of seconds, Heartseeker for stealth (Heartseeker + Blackpowder = Stealth), roll behind, backstab, repeat. If you pace it right, you can keep going indefinitely with almost no danger to yourself due to blinds and dodge rolls (that’s not to mention your heal ability and Shadow Refuge).

My perception is that a lot of people won’t like this because it takes 9 initiative to stealth (BPowder + HS)… but the thing is, you’re not spending 9 init JUST to stealth. You’re paying 9 initiative for 2-3 seconds of blind field, a heartseeker strike, AND a stealth. That’s a heck of a lot more than Cloak and Dagger can say.

What are your impressions? What do you think a good build would be for this purpose (primarily PVE)? What uses do you think it has in PVP?

My initial thoughts on PVP would be to build it just like any other backstab build. Backstab bursters don’t use Death Blossom or Bouncing Dagger anyway, and this build comes with a Smoke field and an interrupt! (Not to mention the potential for infinite stealth with Black Powder + Cluster Bomb…………..)

Thoughts?

I haven’t tried PvP yet, still working up to level 80 so my equipment and traits are up to par.

But I can see dagger/pistol working great against lone targets. Its only problem is it only works against single targets. If anyone else jumps into the fight, you need to either switch weapons or run away.

i can only speak pvp really.

but D/P has the strong autoattack of dagger, the strong backstabs, but also has superior group support because of black powder and headshot, able to completly fubar enemies execution attempts while all but gauranteeing your own teams.

besides if specced right you will regen ini fast enough that the cost doesnt really hinder you.

teh only thing you gotta watch out is ranged gibbing you while you work on the melee…but thats the same for D/D as well.

shadowshot is flawed but still helpful too.

Shooopa.5632:

I haven’t tried PvP yet, still working up to level 80 so my equipment and traits are up to par.

But I can see dagger/pistol working great against lone targets. Its only problem is it only works against single targets. If anyone else jumps into the fight, you need to either switch weapons or run away.

in pve maybe, in pvp not true, specially in team fights. it excels at 1v1, it isnt however its only strength, often times its greatest strength is its ability to support in group fights.

yuo will need tools to ensure initiative replenishment viability. this might work awesome with withdraw & hastened replenishment!.. problem being that you dont have bleed damage output directly on dagger pistol…

Yeah it’s pretty awesome. I used that set for most of my leveling experience. Only really mixed it up at 80 because I was running into a lot of dredge which are immune to blind, so I grabbed a second dagger.

as far as ini regen is concerned (again in pvp, sorry i have so little for pve) my ini regen traits/skills are as follows

minor trait Opportunist (20% chance per crit to regen 1 ini, 1 sec CD)

major trait infusion of shadow (skills that stealth you give you 2 initiative) this effectively reduces BP>HS cost from 9 to 7

major trait Patience (regain ini faster while in stealth), i may change this eventually if i feel its not needed

Utility skill Infiltrators Signet (regen 1 extra ini every 10 seconds), i may change this eventually also/instead of Patience depending how i feel, atm i enjoy its secondary use also even tho i have shadow shot.

between all that i have NO issues with my initiative, but i also play rather…calculatively? many times i wont BP>HS right away ill sit in the BP field autoattacking (your autoattack can do a surprising amount of damage, ive killed my share just from it) then time my HS for the tail end of BP’s duration.

i run a 30crit/30shadow/10 wherever you want (atm in poison) build, have about 19khp, 50% crit, 2880attack, dont remember defense, probably not great.

and bwillb makes a strong case against it in PVE, dredge being immune to blind hinders the spec somewhat.

Only works in PvP or solo PvE

The reason I’m telling you this is to save you deaths in dungeons.

If you use the bp→hs stealth in a dungeon you will rarely get a stealth. The problem is HS doesn’t always leap finish the right combo field and the game doesn’t give you a combo field priority system like it should…

Consequently, A great spec is highly limited due to some lazy mechanics

Yeah that’s unfortunately true. Also you can get stealthed earlier than you want to if someone uses a blast finisher, as that gives AoE stealth. get that in the middle of your heartseeker animation and you just wasted a stealth.

I was tempted to make a post about this exact thing.

Gets even more awesome when you go 30 in critical strikes for 100% crit while in stealth.

As Once you use Black powder then Heartseeker, you are stealthed on the Leap attack and the heart seeker has 100% chance to crit, but because the attack gave you stealth it doesn’t kick you out, so you follow it up with a backstab.

Depending on the situation i’ll either stay in to kick their teeth in with the Dagger and pistol, or switch weapons to the Pistol Dagger combo use ability #3 which stabs’ them and shadowsteps me away from them to continue to beat them down with the pistol at ranged. I typically do this for massive melee’s so i can get the burst off then back out of the fight to avoid most of the aoe.

Then switch weapon sets, Theif ability 3, blackpowder, heartseeker, backstab – Rinse wash repeat.

It’s an exceptionally strong way to play thief, laying in some really nice damage without exposing yourself.

Carrioncrow didnt even think about getting the auto crit on HS that is good thinking. I am 80 and only recently discovered the awesomeness that is D/P. It took me a while to figure out what was stealthing me lol. It was making me angry cause I could randomly stealth. Once learned its easy to use and that blind is awesome. On top of them being blind, your stealthed, and your also in there face. Im going to test the 100% crit out now

“As Once you use Black powder then Heartseeker, you are stealthed on the Leap attack and the heart seeker has 100% chance to crit, but because the attack gave you stealth it doesn’t kick you out, so you follow it up with a backstab.”

:O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now THAT is awesome. If only I hadn’t blown all my money on sylvari cultural armor, I could buy my trait book and actually spend my points. :P

Also, I disagree that the spec isn’t good at fighting multiple mobs in PVE. You just take out the ranged first. With Black Powder, you can sit in a field of melee mobs all day and laugh while they fumble after you. Unless they’re mole-people. Then it’s GG.

So what exactly does D/D have over this? (in pvp)

If the Bp>Hs stealth works like that I would at least put it on par with C&D and since 3 and 4 are not used in D/D anyway how is D/P just not straight up better?

auto attack?

@rmBossa,

I would say D/D’s advantage is an admittedly cheaper and more “on-call” stealth. (5 energy, a single ability, more reliable).

Carrioncrow.6872:

As Once you use Black powder then Heartseeker, you are stealthed on the Leap attack and the heart seeker has 100% chance to crit, but because the attack gave you stealth it doesn’t kick you out, so you follow it up with a backstab.

Actually you need to perform heartseeker after black powder to get stealth. The smoke field is an status effect area and heartseeker is a leap finisher.

Heartseeker doesn’t have 100% critical chance either. How much damage it causes depends on the target’s HP. Backstab however will critical hit nearly all the time, and even if it doesn’t it’s very powerful.

thanks, that helps a lot as Im lvlin up im trying to put together a list of things that I want to try out. Since im currently going for a spec much like the one posted above its nice to know I can try out D/D and D/p with same spec.

rmBossa.4621:

So what exactly does D/D have over this? (in pvp)

If the Bp>Hs stealth works like that I would at least put it on par with C&D and since 3 and 4 are not used in D/D anyway how is D/P just not straight up better?

auto attack?

Death blossom causes massive bleeding. If you’ve spec’d your thief for condition damage then that’s your number one skill.

Shooopa.5632:

Carrioncrow.6872:

As Once you use Black powder then Heartseeker, you are stealthed on the Leap attack and the heart seeker has 100% chance to crit, but because the attack gave you stealth it doesn’t kick you out, so you follow it up with a backstab.

Actually you need to perform heartseeker after black powder to get stealth. The smoke field is an status effect area and heartseeker is a leap finisher.

Heartseeker doesn’t have 100% critical chance either. How much damage it causes depends on the target’s HP. Backstab however will critical hit nearly all the time, and even if it doesn’t it’s very powerful.

I believe he was referring to the trait that gives 100% crit chance when attacking from stealth. Though I never thought it would apply to such a situation (applying to the attack that brings you into stealth) so some confirmation would be sweet

Edit: yeah I was assuming the conversation was more comparing backstab spec d/d to backstab d/p. but yeah DB for condition spec most def

rmBossa.4621:

So what exactly does D/D have over this? (in pvp)

If the Bp>Hs stealth works like that I would at least put it on par with C&D and since 3 and 4 are not used in D/D anyway how is D/P just not straight up better?

auto attack?

cheaper stealth, two AoE options, and better ranged damage.

Can’t edit post… Forgot to mention the most important thing, a cripple!

Good that finally someone is noticing D/P. It is good, however Initiative heavy and just has to be used right. It’s a 7 point Backstab setup compared to a 4 point C&D Backstab setup, with the 2 init on stealth trait. The trade off is you get an AOE blind and a Heartseeker hit. But yes, practice. We have learned to use this well when we use it, but I can’t say I like it for long term. As I’m sticking to targets as much as possible, I find the setup literally takes too long. There are times I wish I had a pistol offhand, but more often I want my dagger offhand. I carry both and switch out as needed to satisfy both.

I concur. I’m currently playing around with a D/D and D/P set with heavy Shadow Arts and Crit focus.

D/P offers a lot of utility, and I run the Dagger OH because Dancing Dagger is great for crowds and I pull other blinds off with Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, and CnD (Traited for the last two).

It’s part of my effort to break my “Must always run with a shortbow” mindset. I’m not saying it’s amazing, but I needed a break from my S/D play.

What’s great about the Powder is that unlike CnD, it doesn’t mean I have to stealth. I usually do, but in dungeons it’s great to drop a powder and roll back sometimes and then go into Dancing Dagger.

the difference between D/D and D/P are just what you want from yoru last 3 skills.

shadow shot is flawed in that it has a mini self root atm

death blossom splits the D/D into two seperate stat builds

dancing dagger does good damage when specced power, specially on like 2 targets.

and cloak costs cheaper but imo is less reliable.

ultimately i take pistol offhand because i love head shot and black powder for suportting my team during the downed state.

First, Heartseeker doesn’t auto crit with the above example provided. I knew that right off the bat but I tested last night just to be sure and it did not crit 100% of the time. It crits a lot… but so does everything when you’re stacking precision in conjunction with 30 point crit line.

So that’s simply not true.

Secondly, anyone who’s sticking around for BP is an idiot or stunned. No one with even a modicum of experience against thieves is going to stay melee when BP pops. It’s far too situational to take full advantage of. It’s primary use in PvP is for coordinated team play with other Thieves. Two GCD’s and multiple Thieves stealth for a nuke bomb of epic proportions.

It’s a sight to behold.

But it isn’t the awesome sauce that its being made out to be in this thread. In PvE that’s another story. Very VERY good ability set. But in PvP, as the population becomes more experienced you’ll see it less frequently used outside of concerted efforts.

I’m not sure I oversighted it, but no one here mention the damage output of CnD vs. BP→HS. You lose almost over half the damage on a single target along with the blow of initiative. CnD>BP→HS. I do concur, however, of the utility of BP. Having a smoke cloud for a down player. Using Shadow Refuge is a better option (IMO) to remove the aggression from yourself and down players (PvE and PvP). The things I “think/feel” holds value with an offhand pistol is Headshot. Interupts are huge in many situation and can mitigate a lot of unecessary damage (PvE and PvP). And the ability to mostly keep a blind debuff at most times between the powder and re-entering stealth(Cloaked In Shadow). Again all things default to playstyle and what you are trying to counter/support.

PvP

I’ve used dagger pistol since BWE3, the thing with dagger dagger is that it is just doesn’t do anything if you’re being kited by someone (try it 1v1, short bow #1 #3 and #5 flat out counters any dagger OH build)

also initiating on someone with the burst combo at full intiative:

DP

Smoke + HS + Steal = 6 overal cost

DD

CnD + Steal = 6 overall cost

This is simply because Steal doesn’t proc the +3 initiative since you’re already at max initiative until you hit CnD, which comes after the steal. This is only for initiating of course though. Not for actual fights

Overall I think DD and SP thieves are really really 1 dimensional and easy to counter with proper play. Even in closed spaces DP can stand up to DD toe to toe just because of blind and headshot utility

Anyone wanna post there build along with skills and traits used for this spec?

This is one I’ve been playing with since last week in PvE (dungeons) and WvW.

http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simulator.php#1.7.1.6.20.13.0.0.0.0.154.168.174.176.178.0.0.0.0.0.0.468.467.0.481.488.0.497.0.0.515.0.0.0.20.25.15.10

I run D/P and P/D because both have their uses and give me versatility – I like to play saucy with the Backstabs, but if I need to fall back, Pistol is how I do that. Shortbow goes in during major AoE moments.

20 in Critical for Keen Observer, Side Strikes, Opportunist, and Furious or Signets of Power. I like to run with SoS, and the blind is handy (especially since it’s ranged), so with the blind and stacks of Might, I feel the Signet pulls more weight.

25 in Shadow Arts for all the baseline traits and Master of Deception. You can slot whatever you want in the other Trait, which is what I like about it – I change both up quite bit. MoD is nice, though, since I run with Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, or Shadow Step (stun and condition remover). I like Blinding Powder for it’s on-demand Stealth action if the momentum of the fight is in my favor.

15 in Acro for those two very nice baseline traits, and Inertia, since you may as well get Might for dodging.

10 in Trickery, and here’s where you can scrap this line and invest in others if you want, but I like getting Initiative on Steal, and Thrill is a lot of perks for something you do quite often. But you could cap out Critical Strikes or Shadow Arts if you wanted – my last build ran 25 in CS and 30 in SA, but I kept looking at my boons after Steals (or lack of boons) and going “Huh.”

I like all three of our Elites, to be honest, I find each one situational. Guild for PvE, Basilisk or Dagger Storm for WvW (since I’m rarely in a 1 on 1 situation, I think both cater to the scenarios you run across).

HackerTeivospy.2031:

Smoke + HS + Steal = 6 overal cost

DD

CnD + Steal = 6 overall cost

First off, who the hell are you playing against? Who uses steal as a follow up to CnD? Secondly your math is wrong. CnD with trait is 4 Init not 6. Steal w/ trait would put that @ a total cost of 1. Your first example should be 4 BTW. Smoke -6, HS w/ trait -1 steal w/ trait +3. Total 4.

Finally the reason D/P is inferior DPS wise is because of the time it takes you to do things as well as cost. Using your own crazy azz rotations above, you’d be out of initiative long before D/D while taking longer to do the same exact damage that D/D can do. Also assuming that you have a complete kitten who doesn’t know to move out of smoke when he sees it.

Finally the reason D/P is inferior DPS wise is because of the time it takes you to do things as well as cost. Using your own crazy azz rotations above, you’d be out of initiative long before D/D while taking longer to do the same exact damage that D/D can do. Also assuming that you have a complete kitten who doesn’t know to move out of smoke when he sees it.

Slightly less DPS for multiple blinds? Don’t forget your dual skill is a blind and doesn’t do that horrible of damage either. Personally I prefer D/P.

Cloak and Dagger will do more damage and can be lead into Steal for a Mug → CND → Backstab combo that will instantly kill most squishy builds.

This is the reason D/D is used more often. There is no other weapon combination that allows this much burst. Yeah, D/P is great for 1v1 or PvE, but it doesn’t match the damage on D/D. You also lose Dancing Dagger, which is insane when fighting outnumbered. I’ve won 2-4v1s just by spamming Dancing Dagger.

Ashanor.5319:

Finally the reason D/P is inferior DPS wise is because of the time it takes you to do things as well as cost. Using your own crazy azz rotations above, you’d be out of initiative long before D/D while taking longer to do the same exact damage that D/D can do. Also assuming that you have a complete kitten who doesn’t know to move out of smoke when he sees it.

Slightly less DPS for multiple blinds? Don’t forget your dual skill is a blind and doesn’t do that horrible of damage either. Personally I prefer D/P.

I’m not contesting that BP is completely faceroll awesome in PvE. In fact, my original post above states this implicitly. However, BP is hands down, the single easiest build to avoid. Explicitly BECAUSE of BP.

I’m not entirely sure why D/P is becoming more and more popular in PvP but I can tell you one thing: I’m glad for it. D/P thieves are so easy to avoid and spot it’s mind boggling how they manage to dupe anyone into their grasp but hey, that’s just me. I’m telling you, as I said previously, the more mature our playerbase becomes (experience wise) the harder a time D/P thieves are going to have in PvP.

The problem is that in order to get any real value out of D/P you have to hope that your opponents stay within BP’s tiny radius for the majority of it’s duration. If they don’t and you’re using BP and then instantaneously firing of HS for the stealth then you’re wasting init vicariously. You mind as well be a D/D thief if that’s how you’re using it. THAT is the problem. You have to get actual value out of BP which in PvP is really really hard against experienced opponents. If you manage to go toe to toe with a melee who’s either naive or completely idiotic and doesn’t immediately back off as soon as BP is dropped, then yes; you are going to own his face.

The problem is you have to hope he’s either an idiot or a newbie. One of those two things will be rectified in time. The other will quit or reroll.

In order to get the most bang for your buck you have to have at least 2 seconds of actual use out of BP before combo’ing it. So you’re looking at a time period of 5-7 seconds to get a full rotation of BP+HS+Backstab with value out of BP. In the same amount of time I can drop 2 CnD’s with backstabs and the target is dead. Not wounded… dead. And I can do it with losing less then a 3rd of my initiative pool and 2 BLINDS in the process completely free.

To get the same effect out of BP+HS your spending more time (because of the extra HS step) and your initiative pool is completely tapped.

There is one and only one situation where D/P completely blows D/D out of the water and that’s defending a point against multiples of melee’s. One more time, melee’s. And they have to be stupid enough to stand on top of you the entire time. If you can manage to get the planet’s to align and grant you that situation… you will be a kittenong mortals.

Until then, you’re a g-im-ped D/D and not even remotely close to the survivability of a P/D.

As a side note, this language filter is insane. Why is g-im-ped and g-aw-d filtered out? Talk about taking PC to the next level…

Secondly, anyone who’s sticking around for BP is an idiot or stunned. No one with even a modicum of experience against thieves is going to stay melee when BP pops. It’s far too situational to take full advantage of. It’s primary use in PvP is for coordinated team play with other Thieves. Two GCD’s and multiple Thieves stealth for a nuke bomb of epic proportions.

firstly if your relying on BP to get kills your using it wrong. Yes it can be used that way, and in 8v8 zergs i have used it to great effect since people seem to be more interested in what button they are gonna press next rather then getting out of the bad. it shines in supporting your team during the downed state (executing or rezzing). along with headshot and shadow refuge you can make it nigh impossible for your enemy to land executes while helping your team greatly.

also, nothing works better then popping that BP on top of that warrior thats trying to train your teammate into the ground, and wathcing him forced to get out of the circle. yes he can switch to ranged, and thats fine, BP should have weaknesses and you just work around them.

FiendGore.6205:

I’m not sure I oversighted it, but no one here mention the damage output of CnD vs. BP->HS. You lose almost over half the damage on a single target along with the blow of initiative. CnD>BP->HS. I do concur, however, of the utility of BP. Having a smoke cloud for a down player. Using Shadow Refuge is a better option (IMO) to remove the aggression from yourself and down players (PvE and PvP). The things I “think/feel” holds value with an offhand pistol is Headshot. Interupts are huge in many situation and can mitigate a lot of unecessary damage (PvE and PvP). And the ability to mostly keep a blind debuff at most times between the powder and re-entering stealth(Cloaked In Shadow). Again all things default to playstyle and what you are trying to counter/support.

in terms of purely aquiring stealth yes when you land CnD its plain better. however i use pistol in offhand for far more then just aquiring stealth. plus you can have shadow refuge and BP, and shadow refuge is a longish Cd. further i dont really think shadow refuge is better, better in ways, worse in others.

but i agree with your last statement. I took to DP because i found i could mess with the downed state to a much greater degree then with D/D.

rickshaw.5279:

HackerTeivospy.2031:

Smoke + HS + Steal = 6 overal cost

DD

CnD + Steal = 6 overall cost

First off, who the hell are you playing against? Who uses steal as a follow up to CnD? Secondly your math is wrong. CnD with trait is 4 Init not 6. Steal w/ trait would put that @ a total cost of 1. Your first example should be 4 BTW. Smoke -6, HS w/ trait -1 steal w/ trait +3. Total 4.

Finally the reason D/P is inferior DPS wise is because of the time it takes you to do things as well as cost. Using your own crazy azz rotations above, you’d be out of initiative long before D/D while taking longer to do the same exact damage that D/D can do. Also assuming that you have a complete kitten who doesn’t know to move out of smoke when he sees it.

weird, ive played both D/D and D/P a lot (pvp) and didnt find much of a difference when trying to apply my damage. This is because of the nature of CnD vs BP>HS.

CnD people see coming, it has a obvious animation, and you have to be kissing the target to land it. anyone with half a brain dont want a thief that close. so its a lot of running trying to maintain that distance while you cast CnD.

Meanwhile so long as im facing the player or targeting him/her i can just BP>HS…which naturally closes some ground, and approach from stealth.

in theory youd be right, but in practice vs live players i didnt find it to be the case. plus if you take appropriate talents you rarely are out of ini.

This is the build im currently using

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#cckzMc9cMFRvMMFRvMaxx9MczaqVaq

i adjusted it to fit my playstyle (dont like saving steal as its a better gap closer then shadow shot imo). often times ill sit in my BP as long as my enemy lets me while i autoattack. usually using the back end of its duration to enter stealth. i also try to place the Bp strategically in team fights.

but suffice to say, with the amount of ini regen mechanics i have, even with 12 ini i rarely if ever have an issue.

Krathalos.3461:

Cloak and Dagger will do more damage and can be lead into Steal for a Mug -> CND -> Backstab combo that will instantly kill most squishy builds.

This is the reason D/D is used more often. There is no other weapon combination that allows this much burst. Yeah, D/P is great for 1v1 or PvE, but it doesn’t match the damage on D/D. You also lose Dancing Dagger, which is insane when fighting outnumbered. I’ve won 2-4v1s just by spamming Dancing Dagger.

and that is gonna get nerfed (the 15k+ backstab glass cannon build) make no illusion of it. the only question is what facet of it will be nerfed to bring the damage down. backstab? assassins signet? i dont know. but yes it is the reason its used more often, people like killing other players in 2 seconds.

DP is also better for team fight support during the downed state in pvp.

dancing dagger is underrated imo too tho.

rickshaw, i honestly think your playing D/P wrong. D/D is better roaming build imo, D/P better for group fights. The reason D/P is becoming more popular is because 8v8 is a zergfest, people are realizing that in order to gain the best glory they gotta run with the zerg. D/P is better in groups, therefore it just makes sense.

tho also taking advantage of the noobs that stand in the powder is another aspect of it.

plus the way i look at it, in 1v1 vs smart player. they run in, you put down BP, they start to run out, you auto them a few times, then HS into stealth for a backstab. now you can either auto them, or BP again forcing them to once again move (I.E. your not taking damage), and repeat.

it is very ini intensive, but i can for some reason do it without stopping because of all my ini regen mechanics

you kill em faster, ill give you that, but that wasnt what i was looking for when i went to D/P…so honestly i think its playstyle.

ill say it again, BP is so much more then a killzone, and relying on it for such is a bad way to play.