Guild Wars 2

Hey there,

P/D and S/D have stomped DD into the ground to the point where once playing the ghost of the battlefield is that of a dream of ages past

To put some additional difference between OH pistol and OH dagger, dagger will now be about selfish buffing for stealth and stealth attacks specifically vs pistol’s cc and smoke field for sharing stealth

(I play thief casually and love the ultra glassy assassin playstyle of melee which has now become a ghost imo)

What tweaks would be made?

Dancing dagger: shadow step to the area imobilising then crippling foes
-becomes a placable aoe ~ 100-200 aoe reticle
-foes now gain a debuff akin to the ‘rip sword’ that warrior has
-debuff initially pulses imob followed by cripple

Cloak and dagger: name change to shadow stalker
-grants buff to stealth attacks “umbral wrath” (10-25% raw damage/condi damage<balance>)
-buff is consumed upon successful stealth attack
-grants 4-6 <balance> seconds of stealth
-no longer need a target to grant stealth to self
- damage is now reduced by x% due to not being a damaging ability
- blinds and inflicts vulnerability in aoe surrounding the thief
- damage is now shifted back to backstab

Tweaks to weapons
*sneak attack: no longer 7 shots – single shot dealing 5 stacks of bleed
*backstab: minor buff to damage to bring it back into the assassination range
*tactical strike: no change

Trait tweaks

Side strike: name change to sharpened shadow
- increases umbral wrath’s effectiveness by 50-100% <balance>
(side strikes is now inbuilt to keen observer)

Darkened fate: part of the percent of critical hit chance is above 100% is applied to critical damage increase 25-50%
Eg. If 40% crit change/ 150% crit damage – with hidden killer (internal synergy within the tree) – damage will increase to 160-170% crit damage

(sundering strikes now made baseline with unrelenting strikes)

Meld with shadows:
Buff either of two ways
2-3 seconds OR 50-100% duration increase

Please let there be constructive discussion on the changes

How do you find the above changes to buffing dd?

How do you find the changes to stealth?

Would you play a glassy dd with these changes in mind?

Are there any tweaks to what you’ve read you would make?

Thank you for reading,

-Phyrak

(I haven’t posted on the forums in a long while and I’m getting back into it)

Wow. Most if not all are obsurd ideas at the least. The thing is nothing has changed to d/d in terms of dmg, everything else to other class has due to hot release. D/p and staff can still burst people down very quickly as it is and we don’t need more power creep in this game

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Wow. Most if not all are obsurd ideas at the least. The thing is nothing has changed to d/d in terms of dmg, everything else to other class has due to hot release. D/p and staff can still burst people down very quickly as it is and we don’t need more power creep in this game

All is up for tweaking

I was tossing around the idea of bringing hidden killer down to 50% – on par with the necro in shroud as to not make the it obscene

What do you could do with some tweaks?

D/D isn’t really meant to be about stacking stealth from its design, though. It’s more about the viability in options while not in stealth via evades and AoE damage application (well, what should be on Dancing Dagger). x/P is meant to stack stealth.

I actually kind of think a shadowstep on Dancing Dagger would be a nerf more than a buff. That range is critical sometimes when aiming up or down structures (since using the physics to your advantage can get the daggers going for > 2k range).

Damage buffs can’t really be afforded for it, either. It’d work in sPvP (with nerfs; those numbers are crazy), but absolutely not WvW. Signet stab 100-0’s most other squishies, so it’s not really about the damage but really that the rest of the kit has poor utility and low reliability. This disparity is caused because of sPvP’s horrible raw stats and having the thief’s damage already come from multipliers, though. Normalizing the two would be best, but people keep chanting for separation of balance or whatnot when the solution lies in unifying the two formats.

Normalizing and buffing DD to hit harder but not bounce, DB getting a shift to provide combat mobility and simply either reducing the cost of CnD or increasing its consistency would do the set wonders.

The problem with the weapon set right now is their total Initiative cost. Let’s take your example, S/D, P/D, and D/D;

S/D has a total of 20 initiative cost.
P/D has a total of 17 initiative cost.
D/D has a total of 16 initiative cost.

Thiefs only have 12-15 initiatives depending on your traits — plus they don’t have full initiatives bar on weapon swap, which further limits the Thief’s ability to use any of their weapon skill.

Therefore making each skill more powerful will not fix the problem because if the cost of using a skill is too expensive, even though it’s more powerful, it will always be lacking.

Phyrak.7260:

Please let there be constructive discussion on the changes

How do you find the above changes to buffing dd?

Unnecessary. The problem of the set is not addressed with these buffs. What CnD needs is a built in shadowstep, reduced cast time and 54 initiative cost. CnD in both D/D and P/D is useless without a gap closer, which heavily relies on other skills like Shadowstep and Steal. Giving it a built in shadowstep will alleviate the need for a gap closer. To balance CnD for S/D and the reduced cost, they can reduce the number of vulnerability stack. Dancing Dagger doesn’t even need to be changed.

How do you find the changes to stealth?

Unnecessary. It is fine as is.

Would you play a glassy dd with these changes in mind?

No. These changes doesn’t fix the problem, it only creates more.

Are there any tweaks to what you’ve read you would make?

No, since we see the problem from completely different perspectives.

Still really think they need to buff death blossom damage, as you don’t really have much sustained pressure on D/D, so giving it a bit of actual power damage might help.

Cloak and dagger still needs to be brought down to 5 initiative, or given a blind.

Dancing dagger changes could give the set some much needed utility, but I don’t really have a decent suggestion right now. It doesn’t necessarily need changed, but a buff/rework to it would increase the viability, hopefully to the level of d/p at least.

D/P has: Interrupt, Teleport, Blind, Stealth, Damage.
D/D has: Damage, Evade, Bleed, Cripple, Stealth.

The difference here is a lack of utility in D/D. It would be wise to add in some form of utility, such as boon steal, life steal, blind, or teleport.

Edit: If I were to change dancing dagger, I guess I would make it a flip over skill as lots of people have suggested. Throw the dagger for 1-2 initiative, and it bounces to each target. Something cool that I think could be added is to have each target marked, and then the next skill is a similar skill to unrelenting assault, but faster and less damage. You would go and slice each target marked once for about 4k. I think it would add a really unique factor to thief and D/D, and it would still be in theme with the name “Dancing Dagger” and thief.

alchemyst.2165:

Edit: If I were to change dancing dagger, I guess I would make it a flip over skill as lots of people have suggested. Throw the dagger for 1-2 initiative, and it bounces to each target. Something cool that I think could be added is to have each target marked, and then the next skill is a similar skill to unrelenting assault, but faster and less damage. You would go and slice each target marked once for about 4k. I think it would add a really unique factor to thief and D/D, and it would still be in theme with the name “Dancing Dagger” and thief.

The problem with this is, it puts the Thief in a risky position with little to no reward for both D/D and P/D, but extremely overpower for S/D (DD→IS→DD2→SR).

The fundamental problems with D/D is that it has nothing that competes with Shadow Shot in D/P and CnD misses are often deadly particularly in the heavy block/invuln/evasion meta. It certainly doesn’t help that Dancing Dagger sucks.

CnD should cost 4 or 5 and be unblockable. Dancing Dagger should have an Immobilize component.

Straegen.2938:

The fundamental problems with D/D is that it has nothing that competes with Shadow Shot in D/P and CnD misses are often deadly particularly in the heavy block/invuln/evasion meta. It certainly doesn’t help that Dancing Dagger sucks.

CnD should cost 4 or 5 and be unblockable. Dancing Dagger should have an Immobilize component.

The only problem I can see with this is that CnD has a damage component, whereas shadow shot damage can be blocked leaving just the blind and port. That said, D/D would need to trait for the blind on CnD and it’s still melee range, so maybe the damage is a fair tradeoff.

DeceiverX.8361:

D/D isn’t really meant to be about stacking stealth from its design, though. It’s more about the viability in options while not in stealth via evades and AoE damage application (well, what should be on Dancing Dagger). x/P is meant to stack stealth.

I actually kind of think a shadowstep on Dancing Dagger would be a nerf more than a buff. That range is critical sometimes when aiming up or down structures (since using the physics to your advantage can get the daggers going for > 2k range).

Damage buffs can’t really be afforded for it, either. It’d work in sPvP (with nerfs; those numbers are crazy), but absolutely not WvW. Signet stab 100-0’s most other squishies, so it’s not really about the damage but really that the rest of the kit has poor utility and low reliability. This disparity is caused because of sPvP’s horrible raw stats and having the thief’s damage already come from multipliers, though. Normalizing the two would be best, but people keep chanting for separation of balance or whatnot when the solution lies in unifying the two formats.

Normalizing and buffing DD to hit harder but not bounce, DB getting a shift to provide combat mobility and simply either reducing the cost of CnD or increasing its consistency would do the set wonders.

This sounds good to me
Standardizing would make it a bit better

It just feels like dagger is behind

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

Edit: If I were to change dancing dagger, I guess I would make it a flip over skill as lots of people have suggested. Throw the dagger for 1-2 initiative, and it bounces to each target. Something cool that I think could be added is to have each target marked, and then the next skill is a similar skill to unrelenting assault, but faster and less damage. You would go and slice each target marked once for about 4k. I think it would add a really unique factor to thief and D/D, and it would still be in theme with the name “Dancing Dagger” and thief.

The problem with this is, it puts the Thief in a risky position with little to no reward for both D/D and P/D, but extremely overpower for S/D (DD->IS->DD2->SR).

It would also have initiative as a factor, I forgot to mention. Somewhere around 4-5 initiative? And then put the current dancing dagger to 2. Theoretically, using that combo would leave you with nearly empty initiative.

The second skill would also be optional, so you can pick and choose when you want to enter that type of situation.

I also don’t think CnD should become unblockable, as it should still be a skill that you need good positioning with to land. However, the current state is much too punishing, and for very little reward for its cost/risk. Simply reducing the initiative is a step in the right direction. There should also be more payoff.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Straegen.2938:

The fundamental problems with D/D is that it has nothing that competes with Shadow Shot in D/P and CnD misses are often deadly particularly in the heavy block/invuln/evasion meta. It certainly doesn’t help that Dancing Dagger sucks.

CnD should cost 4 or 5 and be unblockable. Dancing Dagger should have an Immobilize component.

The only problem I can see with this is that CnD has a damage component, whereas shadow shot damage can be blocked leaving just the blind and port. That said, D/D would need to trait for the blind on CnD and it’s still melee range, so maybe the damage is a fair tradeoff.

Point well made

Backstab and cnd are in need of a buff imo
As it stands, you’re better off aa than setting up a backstab for greater damage

Would a port and invis on cnd make it up to par as a harrier style weapon work?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem with the weapon set right now is their total Initiative cost. Let’s take your example, S/D, P/D, and D/D;

S/D has a total of 20 initiative cost.
P/D has a total of 17 initiative cost.
D/D has a total of 16 initiative cost.

Thiefs only have 12-15 initiatives depending on your traits — plus they don’t have full initiatives bar on weapon swap, which further limits the Thief’s ability to use any of their weapon skill.

Therefore making each skill more powerful will not fix the problem because if the cost of using a skill is too expensive, even though it’s more powerful, it will always be lacking.

Phyrak.7260:

Please let there be constructive discussion on the changes

How do you find the above changes to buffing dd?

Unnecessary. The problem of the set is not addressed with these buffs. What CnD needs is a built in shadowstep, reduced cast time and 54 initiative cost. CnD in both D/D and P/D is useless without a gap closer, which heavily relies on other skills like Shadowstep and Steal. Giving it a built in shadowstep will alleviate the need for a gap closer. To balance CnD for S/D and the reduced cost, they can reduce the number of vulnerability stack. Dancing Dagger doesn’t even need to be changed.

How do you find the changes to stealth?

Unnecessary. It is fine as is.

Would you play a glassy dd with these changes in mind?

No. These changes doesn’t fix the problem, it only creates more.

Are there any tweaks to what you’ve read you would make?

No, since we see the problem from completely different perspectives.

A shadow step would certainly make dd a far better harrier tool to compete with the other weapon combos
And of the damage inbuilt?
Perhaps as a delayed damage style or buff to next strike akin to how dare devils pulverize (I think is the trait name) works?

Backstab only underperforms in sPvP because the cast time and setup doesn’t become worthwhile. WvW, the skill hits very hard and doesn’t need a damage buff. Again, this is an issue only because sPvP and WvW do not have normalized stats as they should, as WvW allows the thief to have tons more combat potential from its damage potential due to the higher stats and better-than-average damage modifiers.

Shadow Show isn’t a good basis for comparison because the skill is objectively OP. If Death Blossom got the mobility (some kind of lunge/gap-closer) for catch-up that D/P has, the set would be in dramatically better shape and up the skill cap but also counter availability to D/D conditions by enabling the animation/distance to be extended and thus dodged easier, but allowing the set to re-position better (think working like Death’s Charge on the reaper).

Unblockable CnD is nice, but the change to BV already nullify a lot of the purpose and proposed utility. Initiative cost dropped to 5 or even 4 is probably the best approach to let the set have consistent stealth access uptime while not negating counterplay opportunities and allowing its power build to utilize more thorough use of Death Blossom and Dancing Dagger to avoid damage and re-position during a foe’s periods of invulnerability.

D/D lacks the punch and sustained pressure compared to the other Melee Weapon Builds, because the only real punch you have with this weapon set comes mainy from AA spam and Backstab, which in return requires of you as the only class to have perfect positioning first, LUCK and be in stealth just to be able to burst, while all other classes and their burst skiulsl are compared to these heavy requirements absolutzely braindead to play and the sad thing is, their bursts even are much harder compared to our lousy laiughable backstabs which are a shadow if themself like powerful it was once, before its damage got nerfed to death through the various stupid nerfs that the thief class receive over the years which massiely destroyed the DPS that this class once had…the last buff to our AS was there just a stupid band aid fix that solved absolutely NOTHING.

D/D is way too simple to be outplayed by the other classes, its absolutely no real danger/threat if you just know what you do and have the right counter build with skills,traits and equipment. D/P is simply meta, because its superior compared to D/D because D/P can’t be so easily outplayed as like D/D because the gap closr is much better alot alot more responsive, than this silly underpowered Heartseeker in comparison to Shadow Shot while it provides at the same time a defensive mechanic which Heart Seeker doesn’t

The mobility lacks, Thief should be with D/D compared to all other weapons the absolute most mobile, that would give the developers the chance to redesign the Shortbow to give especially also the Shortbow alot more power to make it lesser of a utility weapon.

Thats what I would change to make D/D alot more equal to D/P, while opening the possibility for anet to redesign also Shortbow to make it alot more powerful and useful

1) Reduce AA Damage by 20% and increase the Damage of Heartseeker, Death Blossom and Dancing Dagger all by plus 20% and let the last hit regain you also plus 1 Initiative, in fact D/D needs to become the weapon set with that you regain the fastest Initiative. Thief needs traits, that provide synergetic increased initiative regains if you wield D/D or which reduce instead the initiative costs for specific skilsl when you wield D/D like for Cloak and Dagger.
2) Make Backstab baseline alway 100% critical and ignore armor, not toughness, but armor..you attack a defenseless enemy from BEHIND out of surprise, you have the anatomical knowledge to deal deadly wounds, so you know where to attack to avoid the armor’s defense to deal deadly attacks and that spot is the NECK, get a dagger in the neck and that was it for you, there is no armor to protect it, unless you wear a heavy full helmet in some kind of old fashion full body knight armor >.> rolleyes
This way profit heavy toughness builds, while low toughness builds will become easier to kills with backstabs
3) Change Heartseeker by increasign its range from 450 to 600, add to it the functionality of Whirwind attack with a line of sight mechanic Heart Seeker hits now all enemies in line of sight, while makign the skill also more responsive this way and useful with quick movement direction changes to be abl to jump with this skill faster from onme diurection to another like some kind of cheetah, which needs to be able to react in quick time when its prey changes its direction.
This would help massively in D/D becoming not anymore to easily outplayed, whil also improving the mobility of the thief with D/D slightly from the range increase, what will help when you chase enemies to keep better track of them (I look at all of you cowardly nike warriors running away and stealthy blinking away mesmers)
In addition to these changes will the effect of Heart Seeker be reverted, it will deal now high damage to foes with high health values and becomes lesser effect in direct damahe so lesser health the enemy has, in return of this reverted changes receives Heartseeker a new Condition Effect that triggers when you hit targets under specific health values to improve this skill for D/D becoming a better Hybrid Weapon, because thats exactly what the Daggers are for the Thief, weapons which shoudl provide skilsl that are for both, direct damage as liek conditioners same as much useful, whiel the effects aren’t per se superior compared to a full direct damage weapon set or a full conditin weapon set
4) Increase the damage evade frame from Death Blossom to finally work for the complete animation time of the skill from the moment you start it to the moment where you land back on your fete and return to your normal movement stance should this skill completely negate all incoming damage!!. Increase the amount of hits from 3 to 5 and increase the amount of targets from 3 to 5. Deals now also 5 bleeding stacks instead of 3 if you can land all five hits. This change is neccessary so that the thief can get the bleedings quicker up to an amount of stacks where the condition becomes dangerous, if you keep it for too long not removed, so that the skill needs to get lesser spammed to get some usefl high stacks of bleeding on your enemy.
the skill should deal also Vulnerability baseline for every critical hit, to provide a cover condition at least for the bleedings in some kind of way thats useful for hybrids. Vulnerability is the most useful condition for hybrids as it lets you deal more damag, regardless of what kind of damage you deal. So most optimal for hybrids as a cover condi.
5) change dancing daggers velocity to become 50% faster, the attack is now unblockable and steals the latest applicated boons from foes with always favoring boons, that increase DPS , that have more than 2 boons!! So say
So a guardian uses its staff skill that gives like 12 stacks might, and has aftr this more than 2 boons active, throwign a dancing dagr will steal then the 12 stacks of might and you will have them … say the guardian has after this still more than 2 boon,s the next boons that would be stolen is Fury if the guardian has it among the boons as long it are over 2. Sense behind this skill is, that Dancing Dagger should be a damaging aoe skill that hits fast and reliable, to WEAKEN foes and not only to hopefulyl catch up to them via the single lousy cripple stack, which is quicker removed already, before you can reapply it with another dagger, unless you spam this skill already in wise foresight of knowing, that the first cripple will mostly always be instantly removed somehow by a dodge, a trait or some kind of passive effects from utility skills …
So to prevent this and to make this skill also finally more useful for hybrid builds, receives Dancing Dagger now also additionally a cover condition – Torment – as this will help thieves to control the battle more, while also helping in chasing enemies by forcing them to move lesser, of they dont want to suffer more damage while fleeing from you)
5) Make Cloak and Dagger on hit cause aoe blindness through a smokebomb instead of the Vulnerability, which creates stealth for you and your nearby alliies this way becomes C&D more useful also as utility synergy among other thieves in your group.
Increase the stealth duration from lousy 3 seconds to useful 6 seconds to give you more time for positioning and let this skill grant you Super Speed, Resistance and Stability for 3 seconds when you stealth yourself through this skill.
This way would provide C/D useful effects that are rewardign for playing the weapon set, that puts you by design into the highest risky situations because of havign to go into closest melee combat to land the hits and the positioning thats needed just to land the burst hit, where other players with their brainless designed classes just need to press only every 4 seconds (rapidfire) a single button /facepalm and can deal that way much more damage than we do with a backstab and that from a save range of 1200+ away from you, giving them often also the chance to do that again, before you can reach them even, unless you have the gap closers or skills with you to block/reflect the second volley of arrows to get the time to get to your target before they can burst again safely or hopefully kill them with their own reflected burst when timed right.
6)Thieves shouldnt get revealed after a backstab, while the effects of Cloak and Dagger are still active, so that quick handling thieves have a chance to land a second backstab that will reveal them then, when timed good. This way would become D/D more dangerous, especially in the hands of very skilled thief players that can time their attacks well to make usage of this change to be abl to land quickly another backstab, shouldnt have ben the first one already enough to eliminate the target. (so basically don’t get revealed after a backstab, if C6D’s super speed/stability effects are still there, so you have exactly as skilled playr a time window of 3 seconds to be able to land BS twice and seriouskly, every enemy should be after a second BS dead if you can land it 3 seconds two deadly attacks, then you were simply outplayed and your kill should be your enemies reward for outplaying you within 3 seconds of perfect positioning and timing in a combat system full of hard ccs, ands damage mitigations that can passively protect you from all damage way longer than just 3 seconds
For that to happen, wil lreceive Backstab another side effect called “Death Mark” which holds for exactly 3 seconds, so that if a second BS from the same player lands the target while its there, will cause the second BS to be definitely deadly or down you first, regardless of how much health you have had then.

D/D is the Assassin Build Weapon Set, and as such should it also feel like, when playing D/D thief, making you with it the fastest mobile combatants on the battlefields, which can change the quickest their movement directly and follow you the quickest through their now better gap closings to make it harder to flee from them.

D/D is also the most iconic weapon set for thieves/rogues, its so untypical and unfitting, that none of their weapon skilsl provides any Boon Steal Effects, when Dancing Daggers fits so perfectly for this job!!! There needs to be also trait effects, that make Stealing recharge faster, when using D/D, with D/D in fact you should be able to get the quickest reloading steal of all weapon sets through the help of the traits that reduce the steal recharge, these traits need to get changed so that they give when wielding D/D a significant bonus to the reducements

Thats the changes that I’d make to D/D and with these changes would be D/D directly alot more competive and equal to D/P

Sorry Oprheal, but your post indicates that you’re really unfamiliar with D/D power thief or thief as a whole or are missing out on huge design and balance concerns when looking at the rest of the kit and the numbers.

For one, they never nerfed backstab. Never. Thief damage used to be so good because people used to run squishier builds because defensive options were not realized as being strong or were not buffed to be objectively too-strong in comparison to damage-based specs.

Backstab damage is “low” because sPvP stats are low, and the thief’s damage comes from scaling modifiers, not just raw stats and static power stacking like pretty much all boon builds do. Most other professions have just been power-creeped massively to a point where their normal weapon skills have higher coefficients than backstab because of the innately high defenses and lack of scaling options within the confines of the profession (but often these have boons, which is problematic). Give boons to the thief running damage and its DPH/DPS rises to be some of the best in the game regardless of what other professions try and do.

Further, D/D has way more opportunity to outplay its opponents than D/P. From the design perspective, the set should actually have fewer play/technical counters than D/P; almost everything about D/P is telegraphed, and as such, can be mitigated with good play. D/D suffers from the problem again that defenses have been overbuffed, and the actual damage on Cloak and Dagger itself has been nerfed massively, while Shadow Shot has received buffs and no damage changes, turning it objectively better.

D/D’s innate synergy is also poorer even when it does get stealth access, and lacks consistency because its weapon skills prevent it from properly following-through for kills. Increased availability of blocks/blurs/invulns/aegis etc. has reduced the once-solid performance of CnD in respects to its consistency.

Your proposals do not improve D/D much to D/P.

1. Buffs to HS and backstab are shared with D/P; making the relative strength of the weapon set (which is the real problem as to why it’s not used) the same or even worse than D/P. Faster initiative regeneration again does nothing except also buff condi DB spam builds, which is already a very competitive option for the thief, and does nothing to solve power D/D’s design flaws or close the gap to D/P.
2. Backstab already hits hard enough. We should be encouraging people who want to play a 1HKO build to actually play and build around it, instead of providing the profession tons of innate buffs. Not to mention general “armor piercing” is pretty awkward, considering often times backstab itself is negated more by protection than armor values. This problem is also only limited to sPvP; thief in WvW deals sufficient/high damage on backstab and thus does not need an increase.
3. Again, this change to HS won’t affect D/D’s relative poor performance to D/P and thus would either get the thief nerfed as a whole as a consequence, or require huge nerfs elsewhere. Plus, so many buffs to HS emphasizes spammy play which is absolutely not what the thief is meant to be about. Repeated-cast capability? Yes; to adapt to a situation as-needed due to low defenses. Spam for optimal yields? Absolutely not.
4. There’s almost no recovery animation on DB as it is. This was largely resolved several months ago. DB needs the movement utility, not HS, since DB is unique to D/D and only D/D. Adding more bleeds is also not necessary, seeing as a single thief can get roughly 30 stacks of bleeding going for extended periods of time with the right build, and again, D/D condi is already a very strong fighting build. It doesn’t need more; rather, it needs more usable abilities instead of just mindless DB spam for lots of free evasion and damage.
5. Blind on CnD negates part of the purpose of Tactical Strike’s frontal attack, and also negates CiS. Landing a CnD is already quite punishing; there’s little reason to make it even moreso. Again, the problem lies in the consistency of CnD landing in the current state of the game, not about its ineffectiveness once landed; if it hits, it’s already the most efficient stealth access in the game per resource.
   Dancing Dagger cannot get boon theft, since S/D already steals two boons and requires 6 initiative. Dancing Dagger would be very OP, especially in the current meta, and would decrease the purpose of FS/LS even existing on the sword dramatically. Again, the issue with DD is its consistency; if it bounces, it does lots of damage; if it doesn’t, it does very little. Removing the re-bounce component and upping the damage would make the skill much more usable. Conceptually it doesn’t need that much, maybe a few stacks of vuln to have better synergy with D/D’s aggressive nature.
6. No, revealed needs to exist, unless all of the stealth mechanics in the game get a massive rework and the thief gets a huge damage nerf and utility nerf across the board, on top of an effective redesign of most of the traits and the SA line entirely. Again, backstab already hits really hard. There’s no reason for it to not reveal, since getting damage while being in stealth (I.E. the ghost thief and PU condi mesmer) are very problematic and toxic builds which cannot be balanced easily and are conceptual failures. It’s not realistic to make this suggestion in the state of the game and would drastically overpower thieves if it made it through.

Further, buffing Shortbow’s capacity to deal damage would require utility nerfs, to which the weapon really wouldn’t do well with. It’s taken so often because its utility is so good, despite horrible damage. I believe the thief needs a ranged option, but not in the form of shortbow. The shortbow will always be a staple in sPvP so long as the thief lacks the capacity to hold a point (and thus will depend on its utility for +1 and decap purposes due to IA), which again, comes largely from how the stat system in sPvP screws the thief over exclusively, since the stats are lacking to let the thief scale properly.

Okay,

Let’s just have a quick surmise as to what off hand dagger needs

-ability to stealth self easily in order to land a backstab
-movement in some way; perhaps a port or imob for foes
-unblockable attack to ensure stealth/backstab?

Anything I’ve missed?

Little late to the party, but I agree a lot with decieverX has to say. The problem with OH Dagger is CnD really punishes to much you when you miss it, it’s hard to land without casting it with steal (or shadowstep/infiltrator signet). Which forces d/d into a really binary play style where you have to save steal to land CnD instead of using it for utility such as interrupting or stealing boons. Personally I think dancing dagger is an amazing skill. It is a great slow/cleave, it is a potential projectile finisher and has an ok damage coefficient.

From my perspective I play a lot of S/D and some of these buff ideas would make it very OP. Buffing OH dagger to much or in areas like boonstrip, or gap close would make s/d way too strong. I think some fair buffs that wouldn’t make sword or pistol main hands OP are:

CnD would benefit from:

• a lower cast cost
• Better damage coefficient

Bouncing dagger could benefit from:

• A lower cost (eg 2 init, but lower the cripple to 2 sec).
• A mechanic/proc effect that rewards multiple hits (eg if the target has cripple on them the get hit by bouncing dagger it immobilizes them instead).

Lastly, I feel that a rework of death blossom is needed. The skill is completely lost in the kit because of how much dodge we have now on daredevil, it’s currently just another dodge to spam, but it lacks control and really meaning out side of a spam condi build. I thought about a dash/doge idea as change, which is frankly what the weapon set needs. It would be a much more tactical and a useful change but it would be to much like sword in a sense(it would just become sword 2.0 aside from boonsteal).

Eval.2371:

Little late to the party, but I agree a lot with decieverX has to say. The problem with OH Dagger is CnD really punishes to much you when you miss it, it’s hard to land without casting it with steal (or shadowstep/infiltrator signet). Which forces d/d into a really binary play style where you have to save steal to land CnD instead of using it for utility such as interrupting or stealing boons. Personally I think dancing dagger is an amazing skill. It is a great slow/cleave, it is a potential projectile finisher and has an ok damage coefficient.

From my perspective I play a lot of S/D and some of these buff ideas would make it very OP. Buffing OH dagger to much or in areas like boonstrip, or gap close would make s/d way too strong. I think some fair buffs that wouldn’t make sword or pistol main hands OP are:

CnD would benefit from:

• a lower cast cost
• Better damage coefficient

Bouncing dagger could benefit from:

• A lower cost (eg 2 init, but lower the cripple to 2 sec).
• A mechanic/proc effect that rewards multiple hits (eg if the target has cripple on them the get hit by bouncing dagger it immobilizes them instead).

Lastly, I feel that a rework of death blossom is needed. The skill is completely lost in the kit because of how much dodge we have now on daredevil, it’s currently just another dodge to spam, but it lacks control and really meaning out side of a spam condi build. I thought about a dash/doge idea as change, which is frankly what the weapon set needs. It would be a much more tactical and a useful change but it would be to much like sword in a sense(it would just become sword 2.0 aside from boonsteal).

So, perhaps giving death blossom a blink which has been a point of various discussions above?
- if death blossom used, then next strike deals xyz condition sorta thing?

What of CnD?
Letting one get stealth without the need to hit a target may be useful
OH pistol does that with a cost of either endurance with specced dd or heart seeker – would making cnd a selfish stealth help to set up for a harder hitting backstab comparative to the shareable smoke field of OH pistol?

I’m just trying to metre what would be good for bringing dd back up to par with other weapon combos

Phyrak.7260:

Eval.2371:

Little late to the party, but I agree a lot with decieverX has to say. The problem with OH Dagger is CnD really punishes to much you when you miss it, it’s hard to land without casting it with steal (or shadowstep/infiltrator signet). Which forces d/d into a really binary play style where you have to save steal to land CnD instead of using it for utility such as interrupting or stealing boons. Personally I think dancing dagger is an amazing skill. It is a great slow/cleave, it is a potential projectile finisher and has an ok damage coefficient.

From my perspective I play a lot of S/D and some of these buff ideas would make it very OP. Buffing OH dagger to much or in areas like boonstrip, or gap close would make s/d way too strong. I think some fair buffs that wouldn’t make sword or pistol main hands OP are:

CnD would benefit from:

• a lower cast cost
• Better damage coefficient

Bouncing dagger could benefit from:

• A lower cost (eg 2 init, but lower the cripple to 2 sec).
• A mechanic/proc effect that rewards multiple hits (eg if the target has cripple on them the get hit by bouncing dagger it immobilizes them instead).

Lastly, I feel that a rework of death blossom is needed. The skill is completely lost in the kit because of how much dodge we have now on daredevil, it’s currently just another dodge to spam, but it lacks control and really meaning out side of a spam condi build. I thought about a dash/doge idea as change, which is frankly what the weapon set needs. It would be a much more tactical and a useful change but it would be to much like sword in a sense(it would just become sword 2.0 aside from boonsteal).

So, perhaps giving death blossom a blink which has been a point of various discussions above?
- if death blossom used, then next strike deals xyz condition sorta thing?

What of CnD?
Letting one get stealth without the need to hit a target may be useful
OH pistol does that with a cost of either endurance with specced dd or heart seeker – would making cnd a selfish stealth help to set up for a harder hitting backstab comparative to the shareable smoke field of OH pistol?

I’m just trying to metre what would be good for bringing dd back up to par with other weapon combos

As was mentioned prior by another poster, revealed does need to come down to 3s in sPvP.

If you combine the above (blink on 3 and no-hit stealth), you essentially end up with a strictly more efficient version of D/P aside from the interrupts.

Death Blossom basically turning into a Death’s Charge-like skill paired with an evade (needs no target to work but can work with a target) which does increased/reduced damage based on proximity to the target (so more damage when close, less when far) would probably be the rework needed to fix DB for D/D power. However, this doesn’t really fix the condition build. The pairing of damage and evasion really needs to come apart.

If we analyze the difference between condition and power D/D, we realize that condition play doesn’t require a damage-oriented build, even while maintaining better defensive stats and utilization of frequent evades to deal damage. The bleed on DB needs to go. To compensate for the difference in build ideologies and the removal of the bleed from DB, I’d suggest the Dagger Training trait also cause CnD to cast Skale Venom. This causes intermittent and superior burst condition damage dealt, but requires D/D condi a bit more skill to play effectively between utilizing the evades and stealth from the tools provided by OH dagger. DT also gets purpose for D/D power builds, too (although mug is a very good option nonetheless), since Scale Venom applies (edit:) vuln and can ramp more damage in PvE. While this enforces more use of DA, it also turns DA into the go-to traitline for damaging condition builds, and creates some DA/SA synergy for condition thief and slightly buffs venomshare builds running OH dagger.

I think CnD taking a reduced initiative cost to 5 initiative is probably the best solution overall to the skill itself in terms of affecting its reliability and usefulness to the set. The initiative system allows us to re-cast if needed, but since it’s easy to miss, unblockable is redundant from BV and not really a fun mechanic, and fixing the core of the problem requires substantial reworking of other professions, the best and fairest way at the moment is probably just giving it more accessibility. I don’t agree with more damage, because for those who have played WvW, the difference in coefficients is pretty substantial, especially when the thief has the numbers to scale into big damage. As a result, CnD hits quite hard. Bumping its damage, especially since the skill is an enabler for more damage (Backstab, proposed condition build changes) kind of removes the purpose of setting up a backstab itself, as many D/P players are now doing, since using enablers like Shadow Shot repeatedly or AA chains is more worthwhile. Deviating into this territory doesn’t seem like very good design without begging for nerfs or more awkward balancing states.

I can also get behind the bounce-utility proposition for Dancing Dagger Eval mentioned, rather than looking to just boost or normalize damage. Again, DD once had double the damage it has now, and for single hits, it was fine. It was the repeated bounces that caused the skill to have a crazy total coefficient. Either it needs to see damage upped and bounces removed, or see utility gains from hitting multiple foes. I’m on the fence on both, as S/D and P/D both have immobilizes in their kits, so I’m unsure if it’s essential for even more immobilize application.

DeceiverX.8361:

Phyrak.7260:

Eval.2371:

Little late to the party, but I agree a lot with decieverX has to say. The problem with OH Dagger is CnD really punishes to much you when you miss it, it’s hard to land without casting it with steal (or shadowstep/infiltrator signet). Which forces d/d into a really binary play style where you have to save steal to land CnD instead of using it for utility such as interrupting or stealing boons. Personally I think dancing dagger is an amazing skill. It is a great slow/cleave, it is a potential projectile finisher and has an ok damage coefficient.

From my perspective I play a lot of S/D and some of these buff ideas would make it very OP. Buffing OH dagger to much or in areas like boonstrip, or gap close would make s/d way too strong. I think some fair buffs that wouldn’t make sword or pistol main hands OP are:

CnD would benefit from:

• a lower cast cost
• Better damage coefficient

Bouncing dagger could benefit from:

• A lower cost (eg 2 init, but lower the cripple to 2 sec).
• A mechanic/proc effect that rewards multiple hits (eg if the target has cripple on them the get hit by bouncing dagger it immobilizes them instead).

Lastly, I feel that a rework of death blossom is needed. The skill is completely lost in the kit because of how much dodge we have now on daredevil, it’s currently just another dodge to spam, but it lacks control and really meaning out side of a spam condi build. I thought about a dash/doge idea as change, which is frankly what the weapon set needs. It would be a much more tactical and a useful change but it would be to much like sword in a sense(it would just become sword 2.0 aside from boonsteal).

So, perhaps giving death blossom a blink which has been a point of various discussions above?
- if death blossom used, then next strike deals xyz condition sorta thing?

What of CnD?
Letting one get stealth without the need to hit a target may be useful
OH pistol does that with a cost of either endurance with specced dd or heart seeker – would making cnd a selfish stealth help to set up for a harder hitting backstab comparative to the shareable smoke field of OH pistol?

I’m just trying to metre what would be good for bringing dd back up to par with other weapon combos

As was mentioned prior by another poster, revealed does need to come down to 3s in sPvP.

If you combine the above (blink on 3 and no-hit stealth), you essentially end up with a strictly more efficient version of D/P aside from the interrupts.

Death Blossom basically turning into a Death’s Charge-like skill paired with an evade (needs no target to work but can work with a target) which does increased/reduced damage based on proximity to the target (so more damage when close, less when far) would probably be the rework needed to fix DB for D/D power. However, this doesn’t really fix the condition build. The pairing of damage and evasion really needs to come apart.

If we analyze the difference between condition and power D/D, we realize that condition play doesn’t require a damage-oriented build, even while maintaining better defensive stats and utilization of frequent evades to deal damage. The bleed on DB needs to go. To compensate for the difference in build ideologies and the removal of the bleed from DB, I’d suggest the Dagger Training trait also cause CnD to cast Skale Venom. This causes intermittent and superior burst condition damage dealt, but requires D/D condi a bit more skill to play effectively between utilizing the evades and stealth from the tools provided by OH dagger. DT also gets purpose for D/D power builds, too (although mug is a very good option nonetheless), since Scale Venom applies weakness and can ramp more damage in PvE. While this enforces more use of DA, it also turns DA into the go-to traitline for damaging condition builds, and creates some DA/SA synergy for condition thief and slightly buffs venomshare builds running OH dagger.

I think CnD taking a reduced initiative cost to 5 initiative is probably the best solution overall to the skill itself in terms of affecting its reliability and usefulness to the set. The initiative system allows us to re-cast if needed, but since it’s easy to miss, unblockable is redundant from BV and not really a fun mechanic, and fixing the core of the problem requires substantial reworking of other professions, the best and fairest way at the moment is probably just giving it more accessibility. I don’t agree with more damage, because for those who have played WvW, the difference in coefficients is pretty substantial, especially when the thief has the numbers to scale into big damage. As a result, CnD hits quite hard. Bumping its damage, especially since the skill is an enabler for more damage (Backstab, proposed condition build changes) kind of removes the purpose of setting up a backstab itself, as many D/P players are now doing, since using enablers like Shadow Shot repeatedly or AA chains is more worthwhile. Deviating into this territory doesn’t seem like very good design without begging for nerfs or more awkward balancing states.

I can also get behind the bounce-utility proposition for Dancing Dagger Eval mentioned, rather than looking to just boost or normalize damage. Again, DD once had double the damage it has now, and for single hits, it was fine. It was the repeated bounces that caused the skill to have a crazy total coefficient. Either it needs to see damage upped and bounces removed, or see utility gains from hitting multiple foes. I’m on the fence on both, as S/D and P/D both have immobilizes in their kits, so I’m unsure if it’s essential for even more immobilize application.

Brilliant summary

tweaked deaths charge sans conditions on DB would work rather well considering dagger is a nigh pure damage weapon

What of the discussion above of making bouncing dagger a port?
That is to imob or cripple an area and port to it – as a persuit tool?
Compatiblely, this may potentially hit less targets but it does open up more movement on dd

Especially considering the lack off available to dd

Jugglemonkey.8741:

The only problem I can see with this is that CnD has a damage component, whereas shadow shot damage can be blocked leaving just the blind and port. That said, D/D would need to trait for the blind on CnD and it’s still melee range, so maybe the damage is a fair tradeoff.

Shadow Shot and its damage is already unblockable and costs less than CnD which is why D/D simply has nothing that can compete with this skill. Players can and do spam Shadow Shot and clock with AA in between.

This is why I believe CnD should have the same unblockable ability and cost less particularly if it misses.

Phyrak.7260:

What of the discussion above of making bouncing dagger a port?
That is to imob or cripple an area and port to it – as a persuit tool?
Compatiblely, this may potentially hit less targets but it does open up more movement on dd

Especially considering the lack off available to dd

I’ll reiterate again, d/d whole problem is that it cannot reliably disengage. It’s too costly to not to and too costly to do so. Adding a gap close wont change that.

The problem with adding any kind of shadow step or port is that is effectively the function of off hand pistol with dagger. Giving dagger of hand any kind of port mechanic will just make the two weapons functionally the same. Meaning one will always be useless(more than likely dagger as its got way less utility).

Dancing daggers is already an amazing chase tool, as you can throw 1 of them between two targets and get 6 seconds of cripple (which is plenty of time to close the gap and regain initiative). Adding an immobilize effect as I suggest above for getting a double bounce would allow you to disengage, or chase. Meaning the whole focus of disengage is not longer on the shoulders of landing cloak and dagger.

DB as I proposed above would also enable disengage options, however. I’m torn on the matter of Dancing Dagger’s double-bounce immob, only because like I said, it would be a bit redundant on sets like P/D and S/D to have two immobilizes on top of Panic Strike.

That said, Dancing Dagger is a reasonably good skill as-is. A simply higher damage coefficient puts us back to 2012 where pressing 4 twice into a group of enemies would down 2 or more quite often, so it’s not really reasonable. The skill lacks consistency and reasonable use-cases. I’d like to hope we can come up with something clever that can cause justification but not simply making it stronger or something which can just be unloaded onto enemies.

As a side note to the immob option, it does beg a pretty distinct question: How long would it last? I ask this because this is very important when considering matchups that aren’t strictly outnumbered situations but have more enemies, such as a mesmer or ranger.

Even with a fairly paltry 1s immob, A viper D/D thief or similar build running 100% condition duration could stack 2s immobilizes over and over, locking down a mesmer, MM necro, or ranger near-permanently (now add Panic Strike and Devourer venom) almost too easily. If the duration is reduced to a near-insulting .5s, though, you end up with P/D and S/D having strictly better immobs already in their kits. I fear this may create situations which wouldn’t be fun or dynamic, and without adding awkward ICD’s into the immob component of the skill (something that’s really not a good idea), I’m not sure it could be properly balanced.

I’m not an amazing ranger, MM necro, or mesmer player (looking at you, Eval, for ranger feedback), but I’d like any feedback from people who may be.

DeceiverX.8361:

As a side note to the immob option, it does beg a pretty distinct question: How long would it last? I ask this because this is very important when considering matchups that aren’t strictly outnumbered situations but have more enemies, such as a mesmer or ranger.

If we are talking about making Dancing Dagger a theoretical immobilize, it should work like Body Shot. It would cost 4 instead of 3 and drop a 1s Immobilize. Body Shot isn’t “broken” or “OP” so no reason to think Dancing Dagger with an immobilize would be either.

Body Shot isn’t good because its damage coefficient is half of even Dancing Dagger’s existing one, so 1/4 of a bounce-hit, meaning it’s pretty much totally lacking the capacity to kill people, while Dancing Dagger on those bounces has a similar coefficient to CnD.

DeceiverX.8361:

Body Shot isn’t good because its damage coefficient is half of even Dancing Dagger’s existing one, so 1/4 of a bounce-hit, meaning it’s pretty much totally lacking the capacity to kill people, while Dancing Dagger on those bounces has a similar coefficient to CnD.

Body Shot is a utility skill built around immobility and stacking vulnerability. 5 stacks of vuln is nothing to sneer at. In team settings, the immobilize and 15+ stacks of spammed vuln can turn the tide on a fight.

Dancing Dagger should work in a similar matter since immobilizing an opponent sets up CnD which would work well in Dagger Dagger. Besides Dancing Dagger does far less damage than any single AA attack and should pretty much never be used for damage as that is a horrible waste of init. As it is now a cripple for 3 init is also a waste of init on Dagger Dagger.

DeceiverX.8361:

DB as I proposed above would also enable disengage options, however. I’m torn on the matter of Dancing Dagger’s double-bounce immob, only because like I said, it would be a bit redundant on sets like P/D and S/D to have two immobilizes on top of Panic Strike.

.

If it were to work as I described above(consumes cripple and applies immobilize) you could only get the imob if you landed two dancing daggers, or got a repeat bounce onto the same target or if your target already had cripple on them. I don’t see an issue with possible application, solely because getting the proc would be either be costly initiative wise, or would be a reward for a skillful bounce between two targets. Both cases would not allow for repeated lock down, as cripple would need to be reapplied (huge init sink), or in the other case the targets would move apart, seeing as one is rooted and one is not.

Both the weapons sets you mention already have the means to immobilize & kite. So yes I agree with you; it would be somewhat redundant on s/d, but it would still be welcome. For S/D having another option would be better in some cases(eg you don’t want to return yet but want to chase), but both options would be costly. P/D I agree with you; the set wouldn’t gain much because body shot is a more reliable and cheaper method to get the lockdown. That all said it would be very useful for d/d as it would allow the set engage or disengage for 6(or 3 on skillful aim) initiative.

DeceiverX.8361:

As a side note to the immob option, it does beg a pretty distinct question: How long would it last? I ask this because this is very important when considering matchups that aren’t strictly outnumbered situations but have more enemies, such as a mesmer or ranger.

Even with a fairly paltry 1s immob, A viper D/D thief or similar build running 100% condition duration could stack 2s immobilizes over and over, locking down a mesmer, MM necro, or ranger near-permanently (now add Panic Strike and Devourer venom) almost too easily. If the duration is reduced to a near-insulting .5s, though, you end up with P/D and S/D having strictly better imobs already in their kits. I fear this may create situations which wouldn’t be fun or dynamic, and without adding awkward ICD’s into the immob component of the skill (something that’s really not a good idea), I’m not sure it could be properly balanced.

I’m not an amazing ranger, MM necro, or mesmer player (looking at you, Eval, for ranger feedback), but I’d like any feedback from people who may be.

In regards to duration, 1 or 1.5 seconds would be fine. As I outlined in my post above its a 6 int sink, for the immobilize. It’s very costly, but d/d does not have much it can spend on to begin with.

As for your whole abuse cases section, the only potential issue I see is with pulsing cripple skills, things like volley, or locust swarm. Caltrops is a possible issue.

As for a perma imob thief, I don’t see it being an issue, because many classes have traits that remove or drastically reduce the duration and the only two that don’t (guard and rev) have good access to tools that reduce/remove the effect. For ranger personally, it would be absolutely a non issue as we have loads of potential skills that remove conditions and two good traits that deal with the effect ( Natural Stride & Evasive Purity). The only two classes that I could see struggling with this is guard, and thief.

Checking in on the matter, of course. I perceived the immob as only occurring on a bounce-back, not just if the target is immobilized. The latter may be a necessity as cripple is quite accessible from a variety of classes, and perma-immob in caltrops is really, really deadly.

Daredevil wouldn’t have an issue with it, but core thief would. The same as said about even guard and DH, since the DH has solid means to escape immob or simply deal damage from afar. I’d be more worried about mesmer getting hit hard by it than anything. The bounce radius is quite large, so I’m not certain it’d be more skill-oriented to land the immob, but rather, just universally a good idea if people are grouped together.

As a consequence, the init cost may have to go up to 4 as Straegen said. This incites a little bit more of a raise to the skill floor (as I get bounces very, very often) from the initiative management POV, which is also offset by the reduced cost to CnD as suggested above. Even CnD’s cost may be arguable as coming down to 4 so long as the ability doesn’t see increased potency itself.