Guild Wars 2

I’m a thief in nearly full level 80 exotics use dagger/dagger and I can pretty much instantly kill 2-3 people, no matter the class or gear level (except for the occasional guardian who isn’t garbage at his class) by just spamming Dancing Dagger. Don’t get me wrong, I am a good player, but I shouldn’t be able to do this in my opinion.

A skill that hits 4 times (and doesn’t have to be grounded targeted) should not be able to critical hit for up to 7500. Consider there are 2 players walking by (or the most common case: a ranger + pet) They are dead instantly. I don’t care who you are or how good you are. If you don’t dodge within 1-2 seconds you’re both going to be in the down state. And some classes don’t really even have the option to avoid it. It’s sort of depressing and at the same time can be boring to play. I mean honestly, I consider most rangers to just be walking npcs. Very rarely does one get to actually participate in a fight.

With 100% crit dmg, 2300-2400 power and a 70% crit rate and the ability to spam this skill 4x before I need to wait (15 initiative + 1 will refresh before the 4th DD is thrown): Each player is going to be hit by a minimum of 4-6k damage all the way up to 14k damage for every 4 initiative I use, not to mention the snare spam. So thats 32k damage minimum on two targets up to a possible 112k damage (give or take) just for unloading my initiative. I understand Cluster bombs weaknesses, Heartseeker’s weaknesses, etc etc. But Dancing Dagger is nearly impossible to avoid unless you’re just out of range or are luckily dodging it at the time. Sure, projectile reflection is a good thing to use as well against it, but who honestly walks up to fight vs a guild group and thinks “Yeah, I’m ready for this thief to instantly down 3 of us”. The ability’s base damage just probably needs to be lowered and possibly have the skill do something else along with the snare.

Or maybe I’m just bias and think damage needs to be lowered across the board :P.

Oh, dancing dagger… Dang, my money was on Sneak Attack.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Instagibbing undergeared and underleveled newbies while having level 80 with full exotics and glass canon build shouldn’t be a problem anyway.

Man, I want your gear.

My dancing dagger rarely does more than like 1500 :-/

Up to 14k damage from a dancing dagger? If that’s true you must be able to backstab for almost 40k and insta-gib anyone….

Just gear, that doesn’t happen i sPvP so yeah. Gear and levels :p

One of my guild mates has a full exotic engineer and he says he can kill groups of lowbies with the autoattack skill of the grenade kit. Its not the thief its the scaling of lowbies that needs to be buffed.

Someone must have a lot of daggers for sale on the trading post.

post screen shots please.

please clarify all of the details of your dancing dagger hitting for 7.5K.

were you playing WvW? if so, what is the relative gear difference between yourself and your opponents? do you have Orbs of Powers?

basically what i’m saying is Dancing Dagger is NOT actually a high damage skill. if you go and play sPvP you will notice that it does 600-800 damage, not 6000 damage.

metaphorm.6904:

post screen shots please.

please clarify all of the details of your dancing dagger hitting for 7.5K.

were you playing WvW? if so, what is the relative gear difference between yourself and your opponents? do you have Orbs of Powers?

basically what i’m saying is Dancing Dagger is NOT actually a high damage skill. if you go and play sPvP you will notice that it does 600-800 damage, not 6000 damage.

Theirs a video floating around of a ranger that kills groups of people with AOE in WvW. Those numbers are totaly possible but you need full exotic berserker/rampager gear for that and it only works against lowbies.

Dancing Dagger is a high damage skill and, in actuality, is S/D’s primary burst ability.

The thief community has always been willing to quickly overlook this ability because it is immediately considered a utility option due to its cripple and weakness against single targets.

Consider that a Dancing Dagger hit does the same damage as the much-beloved Heartseeker when the target is >50 % HP, and roughly 50 % of the damage of a max-strength Heartseeker (<25 % HP target). This means that, against two targets, every Dancing Dagger is the equivalent of a maximum-strength Heartseeker on each target, cripples, and hits twice as much (thereby doubling your opportunities to achieve on-crit effects, and doubling the effects of any combo fields).

I don’t think Dancing Dagger is broken in comparison to other thief abilities, but it is highly underappeciated as a damage application tool.

It’s not broken it’s just people being fail and grouping up and rangers walking around with their pet up, already videos made.

Obvious troll…
3/10 thou,cuz he states he is thief too.7500 crit?Give me a brake…SS or it didn’t happen.
And comparing Dancing Dagger to the Moa bird skill is like i don’t know like comparing chair with electric chair….

Thank you, I have encoutnered this several times in WvW and thought it was some kind of exploit. I am in a glass cannon spec so 9/10 if that thief isn’t loaded on my screen earily enough i’m dead anyways DD heartseeker spam, CnD steal backstab…. whatever build the thief has if the game doesn’t load them in, in time, i’m dead. That being said if you are loaded and i can see you i do have options. This build is a lot harder to counter then your typically CnD backstab build because all he needs to do is stealth and regain the init. where as the BS build needs steal back up because i will not be giving him my back.

I was hit the other day for 4k by DD. Again i’m a glass cannon build so this is to be expected. The shot hit me and an ally and then bounced back to me. I dropped on the 3rd dd, which was the 5th bounce. (Stupid ally ran away in the same direction) Thief never load on my screen so i wasn’t prepared to dodge spam.

Anyone got a decent counter for this as an engi? i am starting to see this happen more and more and have yet to beat one. Rifle root does nothing because its ranged damage.

I backstabbed a rabbit for 555k. Just saying.

You’re in full exotics berserker gear against people in WvW who have level 20 gear.

Let’s complain about mesmer illusions dealing too much damage, or a warriors greatsword adrenaline attacks can 1 hit anyone. This, is how the game is meant to be played. One false move, and you’re dead.

@ Kabuki, Once I get home i’ll have to dig up my Screenshot but I can backstab a rabbit for over 1million I think it was like 1,115,587 I think lol… I’ll dig up the SS when I get home

Infiltrators Sig / Backstablol <<<< 80 Exotics

Mayama.1854:

metaphorm.6904:

post screen shots please.

please clarify all of the details of your dancing dagger hitting for 7.5K.

were you playing WvW? if so, what is the relative gear difference between yourself and your opponents? do you have Orbs of Powers?

basically what i’m saying is Dancing Dagger is NOT actually a high damage skill. if you go and play sPvP you will notice that it does 600-800 damage, not 6000 damage.

Theirs a video floating around of a ranger that kills groups of people with AOE in WvW. Those numbers are totaly possible but you need full exotic berserker/rampager gear for that and it only works against lowbies.

i would like to see that video with ranger killing everyone with aoe

How are you doing this. I thought that when you went into WvWvW you were all evened out for gear and such. And that when you do WvWvW the only difference in gear is cosmetic…

Is this wrong?

As someone with near full berserker exotics I can safely say that the OP is full of BS. 7.5k? Are you hitting naked targets? Even Unload needs to crit on 5/8 hits to get there.

Gear in sPvP is equalized.

In WvW, your stats partially scale.

Level 80 players in full exotics will out-stat players leveling by a pretty good margin, still.

A warrior group-mate last night stacked all defensive stuff and at times had 10 people bashing on him while he just downed them one after another. Cheering at yourself for killing fresh L1 characters and glass cannons in WvW is not all that rewarding.

A quick edit: At L79 with my Short Bow I was doing 200 damage per shot. I remember this very well. At L80 and upon buying a single Exotic Short Bow, and spending 2-3 gold on all rare gear, I began hitting 600 and criting 1300. So if I’m going up against a L79 with PvE found gear, heck, 3 of them, I’m going to down them all unless they are very skilled – and a few I’ve seen are at least OK.

Hmm edit stopped working. Anyway I was going to say about Dancing Dagger, it is powerful but that’s the point when the time is right. If you see two squishy targets next to each other, and you manage to get crits, you can do 2x 4k damage on each. Yes, that means 16k damage in one shot, and yes that means a Trickery spec player can get 4 of those off, stacking 84k damage quickly if they all crit. You could, alternatively, faceroll on your keyboard to kill those same undergeared targets who don’t know how to dodge. So it really doesn’t matter if you can achieve high numbers against rabbits. They don’t bite back.

You can see the dagger coming and dodge it, or dodge the bounce.

Obvious troll…
3/10 thou,cuz he states he is thief too.7500 crit?Give me a brake…SS or it didn’t happen.
And comparing Dancing Dagger to the Moa bird skill is like i don’t know like comparing chair with electric chair….

It happens on a daily basis. And I’m not sure who compared DD to Moa?

Up to 14k damage from a dancing dagger? If that’s true you must be able to backstab for almost 40k and insta-gib anyone….

14kdamage TOTAL after hitting twice to a single target. so 7k, 7k, 7k, 7k, ie 14k damage to two targets. Not enough thieves seem to take Dancing Dagger seriously even though it is the equivalent of using an above 50% heartseeker FOUR times for 1 more initiative and it snares….AND it is ranged. There are a lot of things that are possible with how much sheer +crit damage you can get in this game by min/maxing and the use of +10% crit dmg food. Along with haxing max power and might stacks. I’ve had clusterbombs crit for up to 8500 in WvW, though they usually crit in the 4-6000 range.

And obviously the damage varies with 1-3 orbs, however, we usually never have more than 1 orb. Regardless, I still maintain 2300-2400 power with food and always have at least a 70%+ crit rate after using Steal.

You’re in full exotics berserker gear against people in WvW who have level 20 gear.
Let’s complain about mesmer illusions dealing too much damage, or a warriors greatsword adrenaline attacks can 1 hit anyone. This, is how the game is meant to be played. One false move, and you’re dead.

I’m not on some crusade to get my OWN class nerfed. When it really comes down to is I think damage across the board needs to be lowered: One easy way to remove the extremely high burst damage is to just remove quickness all together. The fact that I have 3 ways to get quickness on my own is pretty ridiculous.

One of my guild mates has a full exotic engineer and he says he can kill groups of lowbies with the autoattack skill of the grenade kit. Its not the thief its the scaling of lowbies that needs to be buffed.

The scaling of lowbies is fine. You can get up to 2300-2600 power as a level 40ish in WvWvW with the same crit rate I have as a lowbie by just buying ridiculously cheap gear off the TP, you just lack the hard +damage % traits past 20 skill obviously and lowered crit damage overall.

My final thoughts: Honestly, everyone can sit there and scream “undergeared noobs” all day. But this happens to everyone we fight and we play as a guild group constantly. Obviously I go after squishier targets first, but that doesn’t change the fact that I’m insta killing 2-3 people by just hitting Steal > DD > DD > DD > DD. And yes, this is WvWvW related and not really sPvP related. Its not like 8v8 sPvP even remotely matters. 5v5 tPVP does but dancing dagger being this powerful doesn’t really apply to that situation.

And I agree with people saying that any class going full berserkers and glass cannon spec is going to hit incredibly hard, the difference here is that we have Infiltrators arrow, Shadowstep, Shadow Refuge, etc to get away with ease and wait for initiative to refresh, which is how we regularly deal with groups of 20 with 5 people running as Thief/Thief/Mesmer/Guardian/Engineer. We down 5-6 people and finish them then string them along a bit until initiative refreshes and repeat while they poorly attempt to rez. Once 70% of the players are dead we just clean up. There just aren’t very many classes that can maintain that amount of burst damage and still have a high level of survivability.

And just for reference: The more common critical hits I get on dancing dagger are from 3000 to 5500 per hit. Hitting two targets each for 6-11k damage is a ridiculous amount of damage for 4 initiative :P. 7500 is obviously an extreme number, but it still happens a few times a day under certain circumstances.

the majority of people that do WvWvW just go berserker… or at least the squishy targets, which is understandable and shows why rubys are so expensive. Those people do not understand how to play and most of the time it is just a zerg fest of ranged players. It is completely understandable that they die in 4shots and they deserve it. Although, I do find the number of escapes on a thief is too much. And rangers are literally walking targets with like 1 escape where the pet is supposed to tank for a short period, and even then the pet wont defend unless it is fairly close to the ranger and he’d be dead before that happens.

This is one of my favorite abilities, so I hope they don’t nerf it. But if they did nerf it I hope they do it so that if the dagger rebounds to the same person it does half damage, but does full damage if it hits four seperate targets. That way it’s still great for packs in PVE but isn’t so powerful against pet professions.

By the way, this ability can and is easily dodged just by changing direction. It’s not an auto-hit. I have learned to listen for the specific sound of this ability to simply change movement direction and avoid the attack without dodging or anything special. When you cast it, you lead the target, so all the target has to do is pay attention to negate this kind of thing.

If somehow you’re stealth, up close, and able to unload Dancing Dagger for 5-6 seconds without the guy reacting, he’s dead as I said even if you facerolled.

get the point regens + the 3 extra from trickery haha this ability is very fun to use. Im having a blast spamming this 5 times and seeing 4 downed people and also after i found using dagger storm during rotations of this is pretty good aoe

You’re fighting bad players in WvW if you are getting those numbers. Also, thieves kill glass cannon specs. Get used to it. A thief will kill a glass cannon ranger regardless. I can steal hit glass rangers for 8k.

Oh, BTW, your stats suck. Make sure you always get an alt weapon with sigil of perception if you’re doing WvW, takes like 1 minute to get 25 stacks. And eat some decent food with a sharpening stone or crystal. 92% crit rate with the +5% crit chance on each dagger is easily obtainable. You think DD hits hard with 2400 power? Grab 3 signits and pop them before you throw the daggers. You still have 87% crit rate and upwards of 3300 power.

Anyway, all of that aside, DD isn’t OP. You’re fighting undergeared players and glass cannon specs. If you’re in a spec that is hitting people for 7.5k with DD, you’ll notice that you will also be 3 shotted by other full exotic classes in glass cannon spec. You’ll still have the advantage, as thieves are good vs other glass cannons, but you will be 3 shotted just the same.

These glass cannon specs are NOT viable vs multiple players that also have exotic gear. You’re arguing about an issue that is more with undergeared players than with DD itself

No signets, 92% crit. Popped my heal in this one just to see dmg potential for fun. Didn’t even use a sharpening stone in this pic or power would be 2500
http://imageshack.us/a/img194/6185/gw035v.jpg

Signets, 87% crit, 3300 power
http://imageshack.us/a/img221/8086/gw041q.jpg

Oh yeah, I also wanted to point out that any thief using a tanky stealth build will ABSOLUTELY destroy you if you’re in a glass cannon DPS build. Tanky stealth builds also stand up much better vs other well geared players. So, just for further emphasis, you’re talking about a gear issue, not a DD issue.

If I was talking about a gear issue then I would have brought up why every skill I have is overpowered because generally everything does a lot of damage. But no, I brought up dancing dagger due to how quickly it kills multiple people with very little effort over any other initiative based skill we have and the fact that most thieves don’t even seem to recognize how powerful it is.

Clusterbomb? has a longer travel time generally.
Pistol Whip? Much more difficult to actually land, especially on multiple players
Heartseeker? Single target obviously, same damage, only hits once.

Why would you insult my stats in a game where everyone has easy access to level 80 exotic gear, especially where the gear is EXACTLY the same across the board. We have the same exact stats exxept I have about 80 more vitality and you have 80 more precision. Big difference there rofl. Obviously I wasn’t counting in me stacking 25 stacks of precision, because critical hit CHANCE isn’t going to factor into how much my max damage could be with dancing dagger as this is what the thread is actually referring to. If I did my crit rate would be much higher, but who honestly cares? As far as food, I generally use plate of truffle steak for the +10% crit dmg and 200 power after a kill. And yes I steal crit glass cannon people for 5-8k pretty often too. And obviously I’m not referring to stupid situations where Id use a 3 signet build (because good players DONT actually do that and you’ll get wrecked). I generally run Shadow Refuge, Shadowstep, and 25% passive move speed with double daggers. I was referring to actual gameplay situations, not made up ones where you sit at the portal in.

As for your second post, who cares about 1v1? “Whoa guys, i can spec this useless 1v1 build and not actually be useful, but I could totally kill that thief in a duel. Oh wait, he just wrecked 2 people in my 5 man because I do trash damage and can’t stop him” Seriously man?

And yeah , I’m sure the countless guild groups we’ve come across have just been mega bad and in full level 30 greens. Feel free to watch our guardians weekly youtube videos. And sure, maybe a few months or so from now groups will overall be stacking higher toughness/vitality and going generally for more outlast specs, but as of right now that just isn’t the case.

If you are wrecking multiple people with dancing dagger in a glass cannon build, you are fighting bads. Sorry, it’s just the truth. I run a stealth condition damage build, and trust me, it is 10x more effective than a berserker build with dancing dagger spam. Any good player will destroy you if you’re spamming DD. I’m speaking from experience, as I have access to both sets if you look at that screenshot.

Not only are there multiple projectile reflects, but you will get blown up and will not be able to heal up the damage unless you’ve gone 30 points into the toughness line.

If you’re hitting for upwards of 6k each hit, that means you are critting on people with 900 toughnes, ie, glass cannons. Also, if you get the jump on a hunter and spam DD while he is close to his pet, yes, he will die, and he will die fast. He would also have died if you steal/signet/backstabbed him as well. I don’t understand your logic.

Is DD strong if you’re against poor players who stand very close together when they engage your guild group? Yeah, but so is any other AOE.

You’re forced into standing near your team if you’re trying to focus down a player. Period. There’s no real avoiding it unless you have this crazy luxury of running an all ranged team, not even to mention being pulled in by a guardian. I’ve also still never had anyone destroy me for spamming DD tbh, sorry and I’ve played against half of the current “top tier servers” so far. Also, you can pretty easily tell if someone has projectile reflection up. Its not like you just play on auto pilot and run in DD’ing everything constantly without using any of your other skills. There’ a time and place for everything, but its pretty easy to just spam DD and watch the bodies start to pile up.

Okay, once again, steal and backstab do not take initiative. Dancing dagger is an initiative based ability and currently it is the highest multiple target damage ability we have for very little effort (cluster bomb is just a different story). That was the point and has been the point since I posted this thread. With proper dodging, Shadowstep, multiple stealths, passive +25% run speed, and Infiltrators arrow it is very easy to just NOT take damage as a thief and run a glass cannon build, even vs good players even if you don’t believe so. Honestly I’m not sure what to make of it yet because I don’t necessarily want an ability to just be nerfed as I think the thief class is already a bit pigeon holed into just spamming abilities and doing as much damage as possible. I wish the class took a little more thought into combo’ing skills.

But in all honesty I’d love to see your condition build