Guild Wars 2

Every gushes about the mobility potential of Shortbow, but Short Bow can be beat in terms of pure speedy mobility with the synergy of a certain combinations of traits and the Staff.

Basically the combo for near infinite dashes and Staff leaps goes:

Brawler’s Tenacity trait, Staff Master trait, and Unhindered Combatant, along with staff + Channeled Vigor heal.

Dash, lose 50 Endurance, use Staff 5, gain 10 Endurance back, Dash again, lose 50 Endurance, Staff 5 to gain 10 Endurance back, Dash again to lose 50 Endurance, Staff 5 again to get 10 more back, now we’ve gained half 30 Endurance just from the staff 5, but then we can channel the Heal to get 110 Endurance back, and then Dash again, and shortly after another staff 5 will be available, but by this time you’ve already gone from near to far in pvp or clear out of any chasing zerge in WvW.

Short bows teleport goes slightly further and faster, but it also costs slightly more initjative, does not have evade frames, and can fail. It does have its benefits in traversing up vertical spaces which is very useful on some maps and useless on others. No reason a build couldnt use both either potentially, but for general use purpose id say staff could certainly replace short bow in plenty of builds for many situations.

On top of this, you have permanent swiftness, Evade on the start of each Vault, and remove Immobilize, Cripple, and Chill with each Dash.

I honestly do not see how any build can prevent such a build from disengaging on a whim. I love this build for its mobility, but I fear it may bring Daredevil to a state in competitive PVP in which it can be anyware it wants, and can get out of any fight in which its not instantly locked down and killed while stunlocked (even though, Bandit’s Defense!)

Channeled Vigor is on a 16 second recharge and now channels its effect in under a second. This means every 17 seconds you are getting back at minimum 110 Endurance, +10 Endurance per Vault, and Vaults range is getting fixed to work properly to its full distance along with its Evade component, and if you happen to steal to something thats another +50 Endurance. This also doesnt consider that you could run the Signet that provides another +100 Endurance.

I’m not saying its broke or overpowered, but it certainly did feel extreme. I think people are vastly underestimating how potent this mobility will be.

In particular in Stronghold, it runs supply faster than anything I’ve seen, since unlike Mesmer portal it doesn’t really ever have a cool-down or have to stop. It can also get into the lord room, kill some guards, and get the hell out with little the foe can do to stop it. It can contest a treb like no one’s business as well, as the treb user should never be able to land a hit on the Daredevil, then it can just keep hitting the treb with hit and run tactics, or take out gate guards super easy and run away.

Eh, it’s not bad, but SB does have its advantages. First is the ability to hop up onto certain areas that would take several times as long to climb manually (even with Swiftness and dodge/leaps). You mentioned it, but it’s important to note. Second is that it’s instant (when it lands) meaning you are here and then gone. This is great for confusing people. Staff can move you forward but it’s very clear where you’re going, not so clear with SB, making it easier to juke people moving non-linearly.

Most of your build concept works as well with SB as it does with Staff, minus a few endurance procs from the staff skill. It also means focusing very heavily on mobility options that are not as useful for anything else, meaning you’re sacrificing the ability to actually do things when you get where you’re going. Other DD builds are almost as mobile while being considerably more combat-effective. I mean, good for a footrace, but not terribly practical.

They still need to bring back the original Feline Grace though.

I like how we’re basing the strengths of a class on it’s ability to leave/disengage a fight, rather finish it….

Am I the only one who thinks thats F’d up?

I don’t think you realize that there’s a very good reason why SB5 is the only reason thief is still relevant.

The thief class could rightfully be renamed into ‘Trickery + SB5’ to completely sum it up.

Also refer to the following, if you happen to miss it once:

Khazik.8052:

I like how we’re basing the strengths of a class on it’s ability to leave/disengage a fight, rather finish it….

Am I the only one who thinks thats F’d up?

Khazik.8052:

I like how we’re basing the strengths of a class on it’s ability to leave/disengage a fight, rather finish it….

Am I the only one who thinks thats F’d up?

It still also gets INTO a fight, can finishing people off well, and be on its marry way. I’d say this is infinitely better than just “being good in a fight.”

Ohoni.6057:

Eh, it’s not bad, but SB does have its advantages. First is the ability to hop up onto certain areas that would take several times as long to climb manually (even with Swiftness and dodge/leaps). You mentioned it, but it’s important to note. Second is that it’s instant (when it lands) meaning you are here and then gone. This is great for confusing people. Staff can move you forward but it’s very clear where you’re going, not so clear with SB, making it easier to juke people moving non-linearly.

Most of your build concept works as well with SB as it does with Staff, minus a few endurance procs from the staff skill. It also means focusing very heavily on mobility options that are not as useful for anything else, meaning you’re sacrificing the ability to actually do things when you get where you’re going. Other DD builds are almost as mobile while being considerably more combat-effective. I mean, good for a footrace, but not terribly practical.

They still need to bring back the original Feline Grace though.

Fair points, but most of the utilities and elite are still interchangeable to what ever the player desires, as are the other two trait lines and alternate weapon set.

My build used staff and p/p in Marauder with DA/CS/DrD to have a very solid damage output while the utilities were all physicals, which allowed me to deal with stuns, lock people down from range with immobilize to land more of my unload successfully (e.g. more efficient use per initiative rather than spamming), and using the fist flurry to trade blows rapidly in melee range after a knockdown from Bandit’s defense. The Impact strike combo elite was very, very effective at +1ing someone who was a bit low with a Sigil of Intelligence swap to have 100% crit on all three hits.

Sigil of Intel with multiple Vaults is also some very reliable and high damage.

Not saying the build is perfect obviously, as a defensive condi build was its bane, but i could literally just run away from them and heal, and be more useful elsewhere if it came to that. It was fantastically effective in Stronghold where mobility is king.

And then he realized that dodge is 50 endurance and not 100, that SB5 + Shadowstep is enough get around with perma swiftness on dash and that he dies as easily in team fight when in melee range as before.
The good thing on SB5 is the vertical mobility, you usually need 1-2 for moving close-far, but it doesn’t have big CD like Shadowstep. The vertical mobility if used right will help you much more than leap on staff, you also have blast finisher there and you can attack from distance when it is too dangerous to go close.
There will be some people who will use this, they will have fun with this, but they will be less effective same as thieves running S/D in current meta.

Swiftwynd.1685:

Every gushes about the mobility potential of Shortbow, but Short Bow has absolutely nothing going for it (save for shadow steps up vertical paths) compared to the amazing mobility synergy of a certain combinations of traits and the Staff.

Basically the combo for near infinite dashes and Staff leaps goes:

Brawler’s Tenacity trait, Staff Master trait, and Unhindered Combatant, along with staff + Channeled Vigor heal.

Dash, lose 100 Endurance, use Staff 5, gain 10 Endurance back, Dash again, lose 100 Endurance, Staff 5 to gain 10 Endurance back, Dash again to lose 100 Endurance, Staff 5 again to get 10 more back, now we’ve gained half 30 Endurance just from the staff 5, but then we can channel the Heal to get 210 Endurance back, and then Dash again, and shortly after another staff 5 will be available, but by this time you’ve already gone from near to far in pvp or clear out of any chasing zerge in WvW.

On top of this, you have permanent swiftness, Evade on the start of each Vault, and remove Immobilize, Cripple, and Chill with each Dash.

I honestly do not see how any build can prevent such a build from disengaging on a whim. I love this build for its mobility, but I fear it may bring Daredevil to a state in competitive PVP in which it can be anyware it wants, and can get out of any fight in which its not instantly locked down and killed while stunlocked (even though, Bandit’s Defense!)

Channeled Vigor is on a 16 second recharge and now channels its effect in under a second. This means every 17 seconds you are getting back at minimum 210 Endurance, +10 Endurance per Vault, and Vaults range is getting fixed to work properly to its full distance along with its Evade component, and if you happen to steal to something thats another +50 Endurance. This also doesnt consider that you could run the Signet that provides another +200 Endurance.

I’m not saying its broke or overpowered, but it certainly did feel extreme. I think people are vastly underestimating how potent this mobility will be.

In particular in Stronghold, it runs supply faster than anything I’ve seen, since unlike Mesmer portal it doesn’t really ever have a cool-down or have to stop. It can also get into the lord room, kill some guards, and get the hell out with little the foe can do to stop it. It can contest a treb like no one’s business as well, as the treb user should never be able to land a hit on the Daredevil, then it can just keep hitting the treb with hit and run tactics, or take out gate guards super easy and run away.

The Dodge Dash is not the best choice for a dardevil stick in my opinion.

The dash is fantastic for specialization dual pistols who needs mobility, but with the stick the other dodges are more interesting.

I’m no expert OP, but I think you’ve got the numbers wrong?

dashing, dodging, etc use 50 endurance a pop

staff master will return 10 on vault

Brawler’s Tenacity returns 10 per physical skill, so the heal gives 10 endurance, not 210 (no idea where you got that number)

the 50 on steal’s correct, but generally the fastest mobility is out of combat, so steal’s more for defensive/offensive dodging, not mobility dodging.

and signet of agility gives 100 endurance, not 200. (remember, our max as daredevil is 150)

I’d say:

• dash is a decent distance, and the swiftness is big (first reliable swiftness we’ve had, as far as I can tell)

• Vault’s not bad, but unless the animation’s been sped up or the aftercast reduced, probably not on par with SB#5.

• Staff Master’s a good way of getting initiative back for more vaults.

• Brawler’s Tenacity is pretty useless. 10 endurance per physical means you’d have to pop an entire skill bar of physicals for 1 dodge. or, y’know, grab signet of agility for 2.

• overall, SB#5’s probably better for mobility, but I can see staff being good for disengage.

Dodges are 50 endurance. Dashing everywhere will be great for horizontal mobility, but you don’t need staff to do it. Also, SB5 grants vertical mobility that cannot be replaced by dashing or vault, and you don’t need three traits, a heal and a utility to make it good.

Other than staff master all of the things you mentioned are possible with SB.

I don’t believe that the 10 endurance from a ‘staff master vault’ is near enough to call staff superior to SB in mobility.

SB’s infiltrator’s arrow travels 900 (vs 600), and is much faster with no aftercast.

So, do all the things you just mentioned, (dash is indeed awesome) but use the SB. You’ll go farther faster. Not to even mention vertical teleports.

as an afterthought – there is one advantage to vault – it doesn’t do pathfinding. so it won’t get the no vaild path error, and can be used on things like JPs, much like rocket jump for engi.

Uriel.4865:

The Dodge Dash is not the best choice for a dardevil stick in my opinion.

The dash is fantastic for specialization dual pistols who needs mobility, but with the stick the other dodges are more interesting.

It depends. The damage dodge is great for sure, but my particular build uses staff and p/p so dash works wonders for my build. Depends on if staff is your primary combat strategy or your fall back, and in my case its my fall back aoe teamfight weapon to cover p/p lack of aoe damage.

Woaden.9425:

Other than staff master all of the things you mentioned are possible with SB.

I don’t believe that the 10 endurance from a ‘staff master vault’ is near enough to call staff superior to SB in mobility.

SB’s infiltrator’s arrow travels 900 (vs 600), and is much faster with no aftercast.

So, do all the things you just mentioned, (dash is indeed awesome) but use the SB. You’ll go farther faster. Not to even mention vertical teleports.

I guess it boils down to how much the cheaper cost of staff 5 and the endurance return allowing for another 450 range dodge add up compared to short bow. The vertical mobility is definitely in short bows favor but damage evade frames and cost are in favor of vault.

as an afterthought – there is one advantage to vault – it doesn’t do pathfinding. so it won’t get the no vaild path error, and can be used on things like JPs, much like rocket jump for engi.

Yes, there certainly are some practical advantages to it, but not any that would make a significant difference in combat or on PvP maps.

i appreciate your outside the box thinking, but SB + dash is still better at covering ground. shortbow covers more distance in less time, and the combo is more than enough to get from A to B in a PvP match.

if staff had 800 range and EA wasn’t so mandatory, i could see it working though. i know i’d go for it.

SB + dash is still far better mobility… Not to mention SB brings Z axis mobility, and don’t discredit how advantageous that is. Running staff + dash will be solid, but SB’s ability to leap up the ledges will always be better.

Unfortunately, Vault would need a range increase and to travel vertically to really compete with Infiltrator’s Arrow. Even then, it would still be perpetuating the same albatross of weapon-based mobility that is currently hindering the profession’s design. Still, at least then Thief would have two secondaries to choose from rather than one…

They can’t give it vertical because it would annihilate any jumping puzzles. I do think it could have a longer range though, or at least a faster travel speed