Guild Wars 2

I’ve been on a thief closing in on 2 years now. I’ve theorycrafted this profession to death. So much so that I actually think d/d conditions is viable (contrary to popular belief). I am actually one of those thieves who would even think of taking a deathblossom spam build into WvW. And I do it because I see the advantages of constantly stacking high stacks of 1-3 conditions instead of covering them in the whole spectrum.

I’ve worked on so many builds in order to optimize single traits and this has led me to the point where I simply cannot give someone a build. There are so many factors I consider when crafting that I end up something completely off the wall. In which case, I find that my builds are not optimized for the average thief and I just abandon the thought of posting it.

Nowadays I am simply defending this profession from dumb-dumbs in the hopes that players would wake the hell up. But the only impact I have made was getting on people’s kittenlist because…. well you know, it isn’t their fault that a thief rekt them apparently. I am pretty sure I kittened off a Mod in the process.

But that’s months ago.

I think for once in my thief career that I am truly getting burnt out over all of the bullcrap that happens on these forums. And while I am out on the front lines every kitten day, I am waiting for Anet to tell these players that fighting a thief truly is a L2P issue (or something) so that these players would stop complaining.

Now don’t get me wrong, I love the challenge of debating with hellbent players. But I am starting to feel as though I have pushed so far that I am alone in doing so. Someone has to do it though. Someone has to push back, because otherwise the opposition will start thinking silly things like “Everyone is agreeing with me so I must be right” and “thieves aren’t complaining so they must be content with their profession” which leads to “I think its okay to nerf them again.”

I am still gonna do what I’ve been doing, >.< I would like to know if I crossed a line you all stopped at or that I am just going too fast and you all are busting your kitten to catch up…

Hi there Zacchary. As a returning player, I’ve been stalking the thief forums ever since. I sometimes find myself spending quite a lot of time just scanning the forums here and learning more and more everyday. I’ve come across a lot of your comments, posts etc and imho, I think you’re fair, honest and unique. Thank you for keeping this profession alive. I know I probably don’t have a say as I’m pretty much new (still re-learning everything again) but on behalf of the thief community who agree with me, I applaud you mate!

Here’s my view. Anet knows thieves are fine. Why should you care what some random forumer thinks? Youre not gonna convince them the other way, so why waste youre own personal time?

Carpboy: are you sure Anet knows thieves are fine? I only ask because, you know…. many people say Anet doesn’t know their classes in depths like many players.
Also, Zacchary is right about this: if many enough people complain about something, and the general opinion about a class/build is that it’s op, it could easily lead to nerfing.

First off I have seen a lot of your posts Zacchary and I don’t think anyone defends the thief as well as yourself. With that being said, I am also getting tired just reading the QQ, let alone having to reply to it.

I posted in a Spvp forum post about OP thieves the other day that I hope Anet nerfs the thief into the ground, so people can stop QQing, and I can actually be looked as as a skilled player instead of a OP thief who can’t play another profession. This is what the whining has brought me to, me begging for unreasonable nerfs to my own profession just so I can play in peace.

@ Carpboy
Dude, Anet thought thief was fine after they moved Hard To Catch to master tier while slightly buffing Assassin’s Reward and switching it with H2C. They thought thief was fine after they made a heal out of a utility set that completely sucks outside one build.

They realized that thief was nowhere near “fine” when their Dec. 10th nerf and the actions they took therein caused an exodus from the profession. And this was due to a combination of growing distaste caused by nerfs performed bi-/monthly, a comment where an anet staff member blatently tried fooling the thief community that the Dec 10th Nerf was a “MASSSIVE buff” and then didn’t do anything after 18 pages of discussion with one of those pages filled by probably the most successful crappy troll on the internet.

I would love to find that specific post, however it and every post/comment that made fun of it is entirely non-existent. I can only assume that they were quietly removed.

But afterwords, they gave us traits that they took directly off of the thief forums. Although it was enough to bring some old thieves back, it wasn’t enough for the community to forgive Anet for the crap that was pulled. And so we really havn’t seen anything from them since because the profession itself is at the point where touching it will incite a god’s wrath.

That’s why I keep calling for our own personal dev. The only people who know the profession are the players who nolife on it and the only people who can change it are the developers. If thief had their own personal developer who truly loved it and nolifed on it as much as we do, then thieves can communicate their problems to the developer and the developer can translate them to the team. Like a translator that helps you talk to people in foreign countries.

With our own developer, we could discuss plans that will ultimately make the thief more fun to play on and against. So instead of vet thieves going out into the forums and telling every scrub that they suck and should /uninstall in the nicest way possible, the thieves could relay problems to the developer and the developer could tell the players that he/she is planning on addressing X problem with the community and come to a reasonable agreement with them.

[/tears]

@ Azawrath & AlCojester

Thank you for your support. That is the first bit of appreciation I have ever gotten the past 1.5+ years.

Just as you helped me lighten up my darkened mood so will i do as well. You simply cannot resist all the pewpew-cryout you receive every day when playing thief. It will eventually break through, and then you know what happens.
Stay with us, Zacchary, and wait for the Skill Bar Ready-Up for thieves. Thats when you can start the war again – and i have the feeling it´ll be war again, just like every single time. According to the forums all small buffs to thief make it OP, and nerfs are never strong enough to reduce its OPnes.

So far i hope they just finally fix the remaining skill bugs and several traits which dont work the way they were meant to be working COUGHlastrefugeCOUGH and then leave the thief alone. It would be better this way.

All in all, its good to have someone like you diving through the 1s and 0s of our favorite profession. Do not give up!

Hi Zacchary! I too have been playing this profession since it was first available, closing in on way too many hours… :p

Anyhow, I have seen lots of your work and discussions in these forums, and I agree with most of your posts. I too have been posting a lot in the forums trying to defend our beloved profession, educate players so that they know how to fight us, share some of our secrets and help new players learn their profession.

I can assure you that you are definitely not alone in fighting these hellbent players that want to see the Thief burn and discussing new ideas and builds. I have done so since release and I will keep doing it for as long as I play a Thief.

Cheers man, and keep up your good work for our community!

I’ve been lurking in the thief forums for quite a bit longer than I’ve been actively posting, probably from about May last year, and your posts are usually spot on Zacchary. Keep it up

All the thief supporters have been perma banned

@Zacchary
While I am new to the thief profession and forum, I have not seen anything from you that I would consider over the line. Everything I have seen has been constructive and helpful; especially when one stops and thinks about the comments, the atmosphere of the thread, and what info people are truly looking for.

I was a mesmer main and a fairly active member of the mesmer forums. I still lurk there, and I can tell you that at least mesmers (and probably most/all professions) have their gripes. Good, thoughtful mesmers have the same trouble: people QQ about them all the time, say X build is cheese when actually all you have to do is l2p against mesmer and then it’s really, really hard for mesmer to come out on top. We have TONs of bugs… I mean it, so many skills just do not work AT ALL. Then we have people complaining about us all the time. Then we have ANet saying they’ll fix X, and instead it’s either not fixed or “fixed” but actually made more broken. One of our hardest counters is thief, so I’m playing thief partially to learn the class (it just so happens I’m loving it and pretty much main thief now). But over there we actually have good, constructive discussions about how to counter thief.

I guess the point I’m rambling to is that, you’re not alone. There are some dedicated, thoughtful, constructive mesmers who constantly fight to keep mesmer alive and try to educate people about what the class is really all about. I see a lot of similarities between thief and mesmer, and just take heart that there really are tons of us out there who need people like you to champion TRUTH (good and bad) about our professions, no matter which one it is.

Hello!

To be honest, why do you even care about all the whine.
Good players already found out how to deal with thieves.
The others will continue to search for a way that make them not look bad and thieves overpowered. It´s never their fault if they lose. They don´t want to improve. They want to drag others down to their level of skill.
So maybe you should start to do it like i do … come on the forums … shake your head and laugh a little bit about all the nonsense that gets posted here … log back into the game and have some fun.

Best Regards,
Shinobi

Shinobi.3240:

Hello!

To be honest, why do you even care about all the whine.
Good players already found out how to deal with thieves.
The others will continue to search for a way that make them not look bad and thieves overpowered. It´s never their fault if they lose. They don´t want to improve. They want to drag others down to their level of skill.
So maybe you should start to do it like i do … come on the forums … shake your head and laugh a little bit about all the nonsense that gets posted here … log back into the game and have some fun.

Best Regards,
Shinobi

The problem is that while killing a thief can currently be done if you are good and know what you are doing, the majority of players aren’t good at fighting thieves. So having the majority of players in a game QQ about a class and say they aren’t having fun anymore because of the class raises red flags for Anet. This usually ends up in a nerf for thieves while the thief class is begging for buffs in other trait lines. So I have a hard and boring time playing my thief when every patch thieves are becoming a harder and harder class to play without having other trait lines open up to create new builds.

Shinobi.3240:

Hello!

To be honest, why do you even care about all the whine.
Good players already found out how to deal with thieves.
The others will continue to search for a way that make them not look bad and thieves overpowered. It´s never their fault if they lose. They don´t want to improve. They want to drag others down to their level of skill.
So maybe you should start to do it like i do … come on the forums … shake your head and laugh a little bit about all the nonsense that gets posted here … log back into the game and have some fun.

Best Regards,
Shinobi

Like I said, I do it because if someone doesn’t then people will think that thieves are comfortable enough with their class that nerfing it again won’t hurt.

Depends on what you want to do with your death blossom thief build. If you are running into zergs with it, it is useless. There is far too much condi removal (warriors alone have 4 cleanses) and you will be left with no initiative and you’ll die. As far as roaming goes, I still think condi thieves can be very effective going against almost every class on a smaller scale

You are confusing using an example with complaining, Bacon. And secondly, you are assuming that I have a hard time dodging them which is also false. The way it works is this….

If warriors complain about backstab, then I turn it around and point out how they have 3x the attacks with more damage potential and way less setup than backstab, NO glaring weaknesses and the best tiers of armor and HP. So even if they do get hit with a backstab they can recover from it better than thieves who can barely take a few conditions without resetting.

Now avoiding Bursts are highly doable just like Backstab is highly avoidable. But another difference between them is that Backstab can be sabotaged anytime between the point where the thief applies stealth and goes in for the attack. Eviscerate cannot.

I have only ever kittened about 2 professions (mesmer + engi). Even then I still rolled one or practiced fighting against one to get better against them. So if it seems like I am complaining about a profession its usually because I am telling people that they have no room to talk.

I’m similar to you but with the Ranger. I’ve been playing it for so long and have theory crafted so many different builds everything seems viable.

I don’t think that everyone is crying “nerf Thief” however. I think that the forums are full of those people, but in the actual game there are a lot less people who think thieves need a change or a nerf. The losers cry the loudest kind of thing.

What ever happens though, stick with it. I can’t say that Thieves will get some sort of amazing overhaul, but I stuck it out with my Ranger even with all of it’s glaring weaknesses and all the bad mouthing that goes towards the profession and now we’re getting some amazing buffs. As a Ranger main, I don’t know how it feels to be hated because people think everything you do is OP and that your entire profession needs to be redone… But I do know how it feels to be hated and to have endless false accusations made towards a profession I know inside and out. I would say, stand up for what you believe in, but don’t assert it with aggression. Or, in other words, don’t try to convince people they’re wrong because your opinion is as valid as theirs. Instead, give tips on how to defeat a thief, answer any questions they might have asked and sprinkle some facts on top of their QQ salad.

Nothing you can do Zachary but keep goin. I’ve been suspended a time or two from here trying to fix misinterpretations . Can’t say I help or hurt the community, I just try to correct people’s thinking when they accuse profession X of something with no counters (and throw an almost unnecessary amount of suggestions in the air).

I don’t see you making personal attacks at people, just at their thoughts which is what a debate is. There aren’t many people who make sense in defending mechanic x or y or z, but you do, imo, so keep it up.

I think the main problem is that people confuse ‘being more powerfull then another profession in one aspect’, with the word ‘overpowered’. Those things are totally different. Thief is the best reset profession in the game (imo, after playing it quite a lot lately, especially d/p condi build). Some people immediately link that to being overpowered. However: Ele’s have the best aoe’s (overall, utility, damage and sheer amount wise) in the game. Does that make them overpowered? Not really, it’s first of all their role as mage, secondly, they pay the price with low hp/armor, and other weaknesses. Same goes for thief. Having a maximum of 900 range at your disposal is a big disadvantage for me, that no other profession have (well steal and few utilities go further, but no damage skills reach 1200 on thief).

If you want to keep balance, build variety (and thus more fun), and a reason to come back in the game, you gotta give some professions the lead in one aspect, while other lead in the other aspect, same goes for weaknesses. Yes thief is incredible good in ganking someone down, but at what cost? Thiefs aren’t bad in pve, or support, or zergs vs zerg, but they neither shine totally in it. That’s the cost. The cost people don’t realize.

I’m probably partially wrong and biased on this (just like the thief QQ’ers are about thiefs), but I think warriors are the closest to overpowered at the moment. the combination of advantages is just a little to high, even if their playstyle doesn’t have much dephth. And details like ‘base damage’ kitten me off, cause warrior has much better base damage then other professions. For me it’s a big deal, cause in wvw (zerg vs zerg), you need two things, damage and damage mitigation. A warrior can go full settler’s gear, and still keep enough power/base damage to dish out non stop 1k damage strikes. On professions like ranger, engineer, even thief, if you don’t count combo’s like backstabs, etc they will only deal 300-500 damage per strike. Litteraly outhealed by healing signet + other passive heals. And that is wrong imo. But perhaps i’m to biased, and overreacting. It’s always good to try to look at it from another perspective. In pvp warriors don’t totally dominate, so they are in an ok place. I just hope that Anet’s words are true ‘Warrior is in a good place’ (meaning this was their endgoal and it’s complete now, for the profession). That also says between the lines, that professions like ranger, still have a lot of ‘improving’ needed, And I hope they realize that. If the big plan is like that, I can live with current state of warriors, but there is some improvement needed.

Anyhow, playing ranger now (was excited after the announced buffs). It’s still worst wvw profession, but in contrast to warrior, I have fun playing it. And that’s what the game is about. You have fun playing Thief? Keep playing it. Don’t sweat it in the forums to much. Let Anet bite the bullets, make the important balance decisions, so we can keep on playing our favorite professions. I hope we’ve come at the point that Anet is wise enough to not listen to ‘please ultra nerf’ posts anymore, cause I think balance has become good enough, that disrupting it with heavy nerfs will totally shake it up again, making a mess out of it.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Stuff

Totally agree with you, OP=/=class specific strength. Nice to see another thief player playing ranger too, I love the class even if I suck at it :P

While im sure there alot of senseless complaining. There are some complaints that a valid against thieves, for instance steal has little to no counterplay. Top players would agree that this spell is the main reason why thieves continues to push other classes who tries to run dps spec out of meta for pvp. An instant gap closer that has no LOS, does massive damage and also CC’s and poisons + get a stolen ability.

Lifestealer.4910:

While im sure there alot of senseless complaining. There are some complaints that a valid against thieves, for instance steal has little to no counterplay. Top players would agree that this spell is the main reason why thieves continues to push other classes who tries to run dps spec out of meta for pvp. An instant gap closer that has no LOS, does massive damage and also CC’s and poisons + get a stolen ability.

Massive dmg? Do you play with nomad’s gear?

Steal is an instant gap closer that steals from the target. That’s what it is. The other stuff you listed comes from traits. Yes it can be traited to do a lot, compare it to other professions’ mechanics. No class has useless profession mechanic, even when untraited.

Lifestealer.4910:

While im sure there alot of senseless complaining. There are some complaints that a valid against thieves, for instance steal has little to no counterplay. Top players would agree that this spell is the main reason why thieves continues to push other classes who tries to run dps spec out of meta for pvp. An instant gap closer that has no LOS, does massive damage and also CC’s and poisons + get a stolen ability.

Tbh it generally only does good damage it you have fire & air sigils, mug and you chain it with larcenous strike or heartseeker. You’re right about the lack of counterplay with it being instant cast, but IMO there’s far more dangerous instant cast skills out there.

Lifestealer.4910:

While im sure there alot of senseless complaining. There are some complaints that a valid against thieves, for instance steal has little to no counterplay. Top players would agree that this spell is the main reason why thieves continues to push other classes who tries to run dps spec out of meta for pvp. An instant gap closer that has no LOS, does massive damage and also CC’s and poisons + get a stolen ability.

How good is steal without traits though? Ask yourself that question, and you may see the problem most builds are pigeon held into. Every other profession can make good use of their profession mechanic on any build without having to spec into it(except maybe ele because they don’t have a choice no matter the trait line). Thief gets a neat feature but it really doesn’t amount to anything unless you have traits tied to it.

If you feel this way, then for you it is the case… Now as a long time forum goer (on various forums), I can only give you some advice… Think as a thief, but do not act like one. What do I mean by that?

1. Pick you battles, you don’t go charging into every fight on a thief, the same applies with forum discussions. You might be surprised at how many people think like you do, and will say the things you wanted to say. So if it’s been said, there is no need to do it again.

2. Don’t act on your thief instinct at every opportunity. Sure as a thief after some kills you need to act at every opportunity to find someone alone, or a small enough group where you can get some action. Yet, a small thread that likely dies out fast is no place to go make a big fuss, you are better off finding the longer hardier discussions and make a stand there.

3. Don’t act like a DD zerg thief when you go into these discussions, sure in game you need to get players down b4 they have a chance… but, keep in mind that people have a right to have an opinion and share it, I know it is somewhat counter intuitive in a PvP centric forum-section (I do not frequent here because of the atmosphere at times). but there is no need to Rofl-stomp somebody with all your knowledge, if all (s)he needs is some pointers as to how to deal with certain things. If you ‘rofl-stomp l2p’ them all you do is further convince them that thieves are unreasonable people and they deserve a nerf, if only for behaving like kittens.

4. So really, hit shadow refuge and powder-blast (or something like that), enjoy the invis. time to observe what’s going on, decide if this is a battle you need to meddle with. And if so, choose the appropriate course of action. Don’t go in for the kill, if it’s not necessary, but be informative, friendly and helpful (like you apparently have been for the thief community with your theory crafting – so see the bigger community first…). If things get to hot, then likely shadow refuge or powder-blast should be off cooldown, use them to ‘cool down’.

Lastly, do what makes you enjoy what you are doing. Going after Thieves’r’OP threads like Don Quichot doesn’t sound like fun, and accomplishes nothing. So again, pick your battles wise, and the likeliness of winning the war is bound to increase…

I think you just needed some encouragement. It is always a good thing to fight for what you enjoy just like it is always good to see there are still some people who actually care about the important things.

Caring is a rare commodity these days. lol

I honestly don’t know why you guys are putting up with this garbage.
love of the game? love of the class?
the devs obviously DON’T care or have no idea what they’re doing
with this class.
they’ve proved it time and time again.

i enjoy the idea of playing a thief tremendously and that’s the only reason why
i still bother to check this forum once in a while.
At the beginning i’ve tried to voice my opinion numerous times but from these past few years I think we can all clearly see they just don’t give a dam.

anet treat their players like dirt.
they don’t listen to their players at all.

I’m not telling you to quit playing but I for one don’t like being teased around
like this.
there are plenty of other indy games out there that worth your money and support,
give them a chance instead of keep begging like a dog, hoping anet will finally look your way and throw you some crumbs