Guild Wars 2

Death Blossom is a cool skill with a cool animation and a good effect. Aoe bleeding stack + dmg with a cool looking evade…but here’s the problems.

The damage is just too dang low, and if you focus on building Power or Crit, then the condition damage from Bleeding suffers.

Here’s my ideas to help equalize the skill and actually help it see some use outside of purely condition based D/D builds:

This may or may not really be needed but consider changing it to 4 Initiative from 5.

Buff the damage it already does by an okay amount, but scale down the damage it does the higher your Condition Damage is, and scale up the damage it does the lower your Condition Damage is.

Same the other way around -> Bring the Condition Damage down the higher your Power is, and bring the Condition Damage up the lower your Power is.

Builds utilizing both won’t see much of a change.

Ding ding ding! Power/Precision D/D builds now finally have a 5th weapon skill.

Note: The condition damage and power scalings only affect this skill, they don’t alter your stats.

It’s a fair idea but Blossom have never really been the thing that Power and Weapon damage Thieves are meant to build around anyway. I don’t think that your suggestion is the worst idea but I do think it’s not really necessary.

That makes no sense and is a terrible idea. Death Blossom is meant to be a purely condition damage skill to begin with. If you’re running a power build the answer to dealing with Death Blossom’s low damage is simply not to use it.

Also, building crit is perfectly viable with a condition damage build. Just use Rampager’s if you prefer a higher crit rate, or Rabid if you want to max out damage per bleed, then use a Sigil of Earth or something to maximize your gain from the crits. I agree that building power and condition damage at the same time is a bad idea, which is why, you know, you don’t do it.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

If you’re running a power build the answer to dealing with Death Blossom’s low damage is simply not to use it.

http://t.qkme.me/35iks8.jpg

While I understand your intent, I believe that if one wanted to go power with Daggers, D/P and it’s HS → Backstab utility is where the concept is headed.

D/D is much more weighted around dropping bleeds and then hiding to wait it out/harass them more and crippling them as you kite.

More or less, I’m just trying to break it down simply, methods will vary.

Punishing you for getting more of a stat is never a good idea, neither is rewarding you for getting less of a stat. Minmax less and take the skill for what it is. it’s quite powerful, even without condition damage gear. just combine it with some initiative regenerating traits and signet of malice.

Power builds still find death blossom useful. The bleeding damage is still pretty good, and the skill allows you to evade without using endurance an, inflict damage and cause conditions all at the same time. You can cycle it with regular dodging.

Doing any of this will make the skill OP. As a condition thief that mainly uses Death Blossom I can tell you this skill is already quite devestating. In PvE it’s the thief’s best AoE and you can destroy large groups of mobs solo in Orr. In sPvP winning 2v1s with it is not uncommon, which is rather huge in this game.

If you are going to use Death Blossom you simply need to build your character accordingly – I recommend a pistol on weapon swap so you’ll have more bleeds while your initiative regenerates.

Ahhh nooo I love my Death Blossom. No changes necessary.

Realistically, though, I just don’t see it happening. Every class has a weapon or two with some skill or another that focuses on a different type of damage. At least with Death Blossom you have an extra evade to use if you need it.

Reynfall.1547:

http://t.qkme.me/35iks8.jpg

Ok, the original poster has shown his debate level with this post. Might as well lock the thread.

It doesn’t need more damage but rather I’d like to see 1 less initiative to use it, its eating quite a lot (imo).

I actually recently had an idea, I know it won’t happen but tell me what you guys think. Perhaps make Death Blossom do a bit more damage (a tiny bit more than auto-attack damage, perhaps around the 700 range while auto-attack is 600-ish depending on build), have it cause weakness or vulnerability instead of bleed and reduce the initiative by one. Then they could make the Sword/Dagger a pure condition damage setup, make the invisibility skill cause x stacks of bleeding from behind. Make Flanking Strike cause 3-5 seconds of poison first hit and x stacks of bleed 2nd. I know these ideas aren’t perfect and need to be thought out more, but it’s just an idea I just came up with a few minutes ago (probably obvious considering it’s not greatly thought out).

Hi there.

One doesn’t need condition damage to see the usefulness of a non-diminished damage-over-time ability.

Note non-diminished. As in, regardless of toughness, immunities, whatnot, the damage goes straight through.

Don’t change it. Damage is great.

First of, I’ve not read any of the other posts!

Ok to my reply. DB is awesome.

I’m running with D/D & P/P condition build and when you stack the bleeds up you can get 20-25 bleeds up if you nail everything and my bleeds ticks for something like 125. Not 100% on the dmg but something like that.

I made this PvP video displaying the build and play style and you can find it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHdpbyNpVU&feature=plcp
If you’re intrested.

Im playing it in sPvP and tournaments and works perfectly for me.

The points you make here are actually a solid case for having additional 2-5 skills that can be unlocked and swapped in. I think a few choices per slot would be great, specifically to help cases like this where the default skill may not perfectly fit the goal of the player’s build

It would be nifty if traits could be used to flip abilities like this. Like have a Trait in the Deadly or Critical trees that reads something like:
“The direct damage on each hit of Death Blossom is doubled, while the damage of each Bleed tick is halved. "

If you wanted that effect, you could use that trait.

The only change I could see with DB is switch it with heartseeker. So it will now be a dagger mainhand ability and Heartseeker is now the dual skill, requiring D/D. Switch the initiative costs and give DB the combo. Increase the damage of heartseeker on targets below 50% enough to make the higher initiative cost worth it and make hs unusable (greyed out) till the target is at 50%. Now defining it as an execute, and with DB having the combo, being dagger main hand, and the fact it leaps over the target adds some new sweet combos even to builds like backstab

EX: Blackpowder → Death Blossom → Backstab Talk about fluid combat

increasing the dmg of conditions is a terrible idea… mine only hit for 101 dmg and i can get 25 stacks literally in like 3 seconds. and if the character doesnt have any kind of condition removal i use shadowrefuge and watch them bleed to death. 101 dmg per tick at 25 stacks roughly equates to 26-27k dmg. the increase of condition dmg would be way OP

Um, yeah, this idea sucks. If you build for Power/Precision, just don’t use Death Blossom?

Hell, even if you DO build for power and precision, it’s not like the condition damage is completely worthless, either. It’s just better to spend that initiative on CnD + Backstab.

I build for Power/Toughness/Vitality and Death Blossom is still great. I’m not using it to insta-kill anyone, but come on, even with -zero- Condition Damage, it hits for ~600+ raw damage, and then 3x 10second stacks of Bleed, meaning, ~1800-2000 damage to each of 3 targets you hit, over 10 seconds. I use it plenty because of the evade and the disorienting effect on the enemy. IF you are using it as your damage skill, you’re doing it wrong. And if you’re using it to down single targets, same response. Best for times where you’re engaging superior numbers. You ARE attacking larger groups, right? I sure hope so.

Against 3 targets with a combined 60k health, you do 3 of these to them and dish out 18k damage in 10 seconds. If you have even 1 competent player helping you, you are killing off that enemy team of 3 who decided to stack up.

If fact, I love Death Blossom specifically because I’m not traited for it, meaning when they cure the bleed conditions it’s not that much of a damper on my DPS.

Vexus.5423:

I build for Power/Toughness/Vitality and Death Blossom is still great. I’m not using it to insta-kill anyone, but come on, even with -zero- Condition Damage, it hits for ~600+ raw damage, and then 3x 10second stacks of Bleed, meaning, ~1800-2000 damage to each of 3 targets you hit, over 10 seconds. I use it plenty because of the evade and the disorienting effect on the enemy. IF you are using it as your damage skill, you’re doing it wrong. And if you’re using it to down single targets, same response. Best for times where you’re engaging superior numbers. You ARE attacking larger groups, right? I sure hope so.

I would have to disagree, DB works wonders vs single target too if you’re running a condition/bleed build like I am. But yes it does shine when you can bleed multiple targets up.

Vexus.5423:

If fact, I love Death Blossom specifically because I’m not traited for it, meaning when they cure the bleed conditions it’s not that much of a damper on my DPS.

You can look at it like that but that to me would be to look at a glass half empty instead of half full. They might have wasted there heal or CD condition remover for your initial stacks but now they’re probably out of them and you can start to go serious on the bleed stacking.

Yeah kinda implied but didn’t state as a non-condition build, it’s not a primary 1v1 skill, as autoattack combo does like 3-4k damage.

Alright, fare enough :P

Death Blossom is for Condition Builds, not DD Builds, use Heartseeker/C/D/Backstab for your damage.

It IS for D/D builds, but not as a main attack, that’s all. I still use it at the beginning of fights as the enemy unloads a large amount of damage/skills, and so the evade is worth the initiative cost. I’m a back-end damage Thief with Power/Toughness/Vitality, so I’m not worried about killing in a couple hits – that’s what my warrior friend’s HB is for – I’m there to confuse and dodge and pick out the squishy target and call next targets. I get behind the enemy, get them to focus me, and stealth and escape, so they drop target and my teammates can clean up. I dish out good damage when I need to, but it’s not my main goal against a skilled enemy.

In a small group, I find C&D has to be used sparingly. I’ve only recently realized when I make the enemy lose target on me – they target someone else! And that’s not always good for my warrior buddy who has less escape mechanics. So I try to keep visible more than is good for my HP, but it helps the group.

there aren’t any problems with Death Blossom. its one of the best skills the Thief has, regardless of build.

For a condition damage build it is probably your primary spam damage dealer and it deals HUUUUGE damage per initiative. it is the most initiative efficient damage dealer of any skill for any build of Thief.

For crit build the damage output won’t be particularly high but you get to seriously take advantage of the fact that this skill instantly strikes every target around you 3 times (while evading no less). this is nearly guaranteed to cause multiple crits to occur and proc your various crit and attack trigger abilities.

A lot of what is said is true, but am I the only one that things DB doesn’t “feel” like it should be the dual skill, spammed or not I think heartseeker feels more of that role.
switching both in respective slots, switching init costs, and giving DB the combo finisher feels more like it makes more sense.

This would make dagger/dagger still be a staple for burst/glass cannon builds with HS used as a finisher, whilst opening up a ton more options for dagger/X

Example: Dagger/Pistol Backstab build. With the switches spots and giving DB the combo finisher one could black powder then hit DB which would stealth the thief AND place them behind the target for a backstab. At the same time they are trading off not having Heartseeker to finish the target. Also opens up more options for condition builds as well

Vexus.5423:

A lot of what is said is true, but am I the only one that things DB doesn’t “feel” like it should be the dual skill, spammed or not I think heartseeker feels more of that role.
switching both in respective slots, switching init costs, and giving DB the combo finisher feels more like it makes more sense.
This would make dagger/dagger still be a staple for burst/glass cannon builds with HS used as a finisher, whilst opening up a ton more options for dagger/X

That would be a SICK buff to the build i’m using. That way I could have insane mobility plus sick bleed dmg and I think that would be to strong. Dagger/pistol means I can stay in melee 24/7 thanks to black powder and just go say shortbow for mobility when i need to gtfo. Plus I have MORE ranged bleeds that doesn’t require me to use stealth utilitys to add more bleeds with P/P on switch.
It’s abit to good :P

@ Nande you quoted what I said but used someone elses name.

It wouldnt be too strong because the distance of the leap on death blossom is not the same as heartseeker so you still have to work more to keep in range then how it is now with Black powder-> heartseeker You would be losing heartseeker as dagger/pistol and getting a lower damage ability that adds bleeds (and dodges), shorter leap but puts you behind the target if you are close enough (pretty much auto attack range to get behind them)

Wops pardon me! I’ll change that change that when i get to a computer. I know perfectly fine how DB works cuz that’s my main damage dealer with my build.

I’m just saying as it is right now I go with 2 pistols on swith to get headshot and black poweder, and I spend stealth utility to get more bleeds up. Removing the reauirement to spend utility would be a massive damage + utility buff to that condition build.

Nande.6810:

Wops pardon me! I’ll change that change that when i get to a computer. I know perfectly fine how DB works cuz that’s my main damage dealer with my build.

I’m just saying as it is right now I go with 2 pistols on swith to get headshot and black poweder, and I spend stealth utility to get more bleeds up. Removing the reauirement to spend utility would be a massive damage + utility buff to that condition build.

Well this would be with Dagger/pistol not Pistol/Pistol. It doesnt add massive of anything because the drawback is that dagger/pistol is melee. Pistol/Pistol has its own flavor even if some of the abilities like unload and #1 are lackluster you still have range. . If anything Pistol/Pistol just needs to be buffed up a tad regardless if they switched DB and HS

Main problem is condition damage is broken. It cant crit and it doesnt scale with power or weapon strength. It only scales linaer with condition.

Plus you can both outheal/regen or remove conditions to counter it.

condition damage does, de facto scale with weapon strength and power simply because nearly every way of applying damaging conditions is on a weapon attack. the only noteworthy exception would be the Caltrops utility skill.

the scaling from weapon damage and power for an attack like Vital Shot (pistol autoattack) or Death Blossom applies linearly, just as it does for any other damaging attack.

regarding healing through a condition or removing a condition: yes, this is possible, and it is part of the balancing of the game. don’t forget that conditions represent a source of damage that cannot be mitigated through any defensive stats (armor or toughness), cannot be evaded, and cannot be outranged.

Death Blossom = 3 extra dodges on full initiative. Period.

I feel like if they just made condition damage crit, most of these issues would be solved.

No, because then Condition Damage would be even more worthless then it is now, as long as the "Condition Damage’ stat makes it critical and not “Precision” it would be fine though.

D/B is meant for Condition Damage builds and it can get up to 4000 if you stack Condition Damage, Ruining the attack for Condition Damage builds will no way help the class, D/D Thieves have enough tools, don’t take and ruin it for other thieves.

If Anything, Power should also effect condition damage.

Daecollo.9578:

No, because then Condition Damage would be even more worthless then it is now, as long as the "Condition Damage’ stat makes it critical and not “Precision” it would be fine though.

Not really. The value of condition damage would actually go up by allowing conditions to crit. Literally all Arenanet would have to do is make sure CD gives enough of a bonus to justify taking it over straight power and it’s pretty much good.

Not to mention it would just straight up make D/D flow better. It’s really stupid that you have to be wearing certain gear to viably use your #3 ability, and you have to be wearing certain gear to viably use your #2 ability. I can understand different weapon setups requiring different gear setups, but you shouldn’t need 2 sets of gear for the same friggin’ weapon setup.

Daecollo.9578:

If Anything, Power should also effect condition damage.

I agree, but that begs the question: Why even have condition damage? Why not just have power and cut out the proverbial middle man?

because that would make some builds for multiple classes very overpowered. Builds that normally just stack Power, Crit, and Crit damage would have the best of all worlds.

I think even if they dont touch Condition damage scaling, some of the lackluster conditions should probably be buffed.
The ones id pick out for being buffed:
1.Poison, I would change it to stack in intensity like Bleed
2.Chill, making this a lot more available to a lot of classes would actually inadvertently increase TTK a little bit across the board in most cases but not enough to be a bad thing
3. Weakness, same as chill. This is more of an Anti-thief condition compared to chill

The entire purpose of death blossom is condition damage, not critical.

You’re supposed to use it to inflict bleeding on enemies and then leave them die of it. I do however believe it would be much more useful if it also caused cripple too.

Shooopa.5632:

You’re supposed to use it to inflict bleeding on enemies and then leave them die of it. I do however believe it would be much more useful if it also caused cripple too.

not necessary. Dagger+Dagger has Dancing Dagger, which can easily be used to apply that cripple. It does compete with Death Blossom for your initiative though. Even better then is to use Caltrops as one of your utility skills. This stacks EVEN MORE bleeds and applies a constant cripple. Death Blossom + Caltrops is one of the truly awesome combos in the game.

am full condition damage gear and gems. When dont backstab i use that as my anytime stacking 22 bleed with blossum and caltrops will kill anyone ticking a tick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SpN5QE9XxE

Ummm. With full condition damage gear and gems your Ticks would be hitting for far more then that even in greens, unless you are not true 80 yet.