Guild Wars 2

Technically speaking, there was no “infinite” range on Shadow Return.

The word “infinite” is just a placeholder substituted for “…greater than what the tool tip says!” and “..farther than I would have liked because I cannot find/see/catch that Thief now”. xD

Shadow Return’s up time of 15 seconds implies a finite range (which was not previously defined). If the up time duration has passed with no skill use, then that range is effectively 0.

While Shadow Return’s max range was not “infinite” per se’, we do know that the range was greater than 1200 (before the change).

The max range can be defined by how far (Range (u)) and how fast (Movement Speed (u/s)) the player could travel before the end of Shadow Return’s up time.

Infiltrator’s Strike (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator's_Strike)
Shadowstep to a foe and strike them. Use Shadow Return to shadowstep back and cure one condition.

• Damage: 252 (0.75)?
• Immobilized: 1 s
• Range: 600

Shadow Return (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return)
Return to your original location. Cure one condition.

• Breaks stun
• Range: 1,200

#Notes
Shadow Return has 15 seconds to be activated after using Infiltrator’s Strike to return to original location.

Range (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Range)
Distance is defined in terms of units, which are essentially equivalent to inches.

Movement Speed (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Movement_speed)
Movement speed can be expressed in units per second (u/s):

Movement

• Foward
  • In combat: 210 u/s
  • Normal: 300 u/s
  • In Combat + Swiftness (0.33*210): 279 u/s
  • Out of Combat + Swiftness (0.33*300): 400 u/s

Using the above numbers, determine max range for Shadow Return in those scenarios.

Range

• Foward
  • In combat: (210*15): 3,150 Range
  • Normal: (300*15): 4,500 Range
  • In Combat + Swiftness (279*15): 4,185 Range
  • Out of Combat + Swiftness (400*15): 6,000 Range

Please let me know of any misinformation or errors and I will correct.

During my (limited, but still) testing, it would appear that the behavior of Shadow Return is as follows:

• Range is now actually 1,200 in both skill behavior and stated by the tool tip.
• If used within range (1,200) of your original location, returns you back to your original location. Environment plays a factor that could result in skill result (no return) or improper placement (offset return).
• If used out of range from your original location, returns you back 1,200 range straight as the crow flies in the direction of your original location. Entities and environment be kittened (sometimes).
• Does not display in/out of range indicator in relation to original location.

great post and the final observation you make is why i think there shouldn’t be any range to the skill but instead the timer should be reduced to perhaps 10 seconds which would cut all your numbers by 1/3?
So in combat would be 2100 range?

It’s because of the ‘straight line 1200 range as the crow flies’ that im finding the new incarnation of shadow return unintuitive.
It can be a little disorientating sometimes when you shadow return and you have no clear idea where you ‘return’ to, where as before you knew you were where you activated the skill.

Personally i feel the new incarnation removes what i loved about S/D and replaces it with a guesswork headache. Before it flowed, now it stutters.

…then again there’s Shortbow #5, D/P #3, Steal, Shadow Step (utility)…on top of your movement+swiftness numbers.

The term should be “indefinite” rather than “infinite”.

@Fade

Reducing the duration to 10s will not solve the perceived “problem” because there are many problems here.

If Anet allows Shadow Trap to have 10,000 range, why limit Shadow Return to 1,200?
Why is there still an internal cool down?
Why does it cancel when we get knocked down?
Why allow activation outside 1,200 range when we’re obviously out of range?
The list just goes on.

The fact is, this skill is bugged — not because of the range, but because of it’s reliability and effectiveness.

But of course, if you let Anet fix the carburetor of your car because the timing is off, you’ll end up with a fuel injection.

I only posted what the skill could previously do with respect to range. I purposely did not include any other skills as methods to extending that range.

I think the term “indefinite” applied if other skills were used to extend the range beyond what Shadow Return could do with natural movement in 15 seconds.

Game Description.
Return to your original location. Cure one condition.

Original Description.
Shadow Return has 15 seconds to be activated after using Infiltrator’s Strike to return to original location.

Its infinite because the code did not enforce a limit.
While you may be limited on the distance you can travel in the time allotted the game didnt care. So therefore it was infinite range.

XelNigma.6315:

Its infinite because the code did not enforce a limit.
While you may be limited on the distance you can travel in the time allotted the game didnt care. So therefore it was infinite range.

While the code did not enforce a limit by defining a number specifically, it does not mean the term applies when people use it in the same breath as “balance”.

xmtrcv.5236:

XelNigma.6315:

Its infinite because the code did not enforce a limit.
While you may be limited on the distance you can travel in the time allotted the game didnt care. So therefore it was infinite range.

While the code did not enforce a limit by defining a number specifically, it does not mean the term applies when people use it in the same breath as “balance”.

How does the term not apply?
“Infinity (symbol: ?) refers to something without any limit”, and the code simply made it so that it was no limit on the range for the skill. Therefor the skill had infinit range regardless of your possible movementspeed.

XelNigma.6315:

Its infinite because the code did not enforce a limit.
While you may be limited on the distance you can travel in the time allotted the game didnt care. So therefore it was infinite range.

“infinite” is definitive, thus it’s “infinite” meaning it can go on without limit.

“indefinite” means that the limit is not defined, but it exist and that limit is within the 15s duration.

The code did not enforce a limit because the skill is based on a GW1 skill with the same functionality. Instead of removing an enchantment to shadowstep back, in GW2 they actually replaced the skill with Shadow Return. Thus it was working as intended until some genius call their incompetent decision a “bug” just so that they can nerf the skill.

This type of unjustified/unexplained “skill balance/bug fix” had plagued GW1 for years, they even nerf a skill to the ground just because they don’t want it to see serious play. And now that same practice is being conducted in GW2 by the same person.

Also the blatant misuse of the word is already getting worst. Someone in another thread already started spewing “infinite initiatives.”

Noko.8610:

xmtrcv.5236:

XelNigma.6315:

Its infinite because the code did not enforce a limit.
While you may be limited on the distance you can travel in the time allotted the game didnt care. So therefore it was infinite range.

While the code did not enforce a limit by defining a number specifically, it does not mean the term applies when people use it in the same breath as “balance”.

How does the term not apply?
“Infinity (symbol: ?) refers to something without any limit”, and the code simply made it so that it was no limit on the range for the skill. Therefor the skill had infinit range regardless of your possible movementspeed.

It was “technically” infinite due to the range not being programmed with a hard-coded number (while stating otherwise in the tool tip).

However, there was always an indefinite (variable) range limit indirectly imposed by the skill use timer of 15 seconds to return. Regardless of how fast a player moved, there was a limit of 15 seconds to do so, which in turn, would limit your range.

The post was an attempt to define a range considering the skill use timer combined with movement speed only. Variable ranges past that would depend on additional movement abilities, again, used within the skill use timer.

My point was that “infinite” was being used in the same vein as “imbalance” or “OP” by those not realizing that there was always a range limit, however it was defined/imposed.

In actuality, the range was indefinite (variable) and that depended on a combination of movement speed and abilities used within a certain timeframe, but the range had a limit nonetheless. Hence, not infinite.

What you are talking about is a matter of semantics.

I always thought the “infinite range” of shadow return was about the range you could use to portal back to a spot. Apparently according to the wiki on portal, that is radar range.

Personal suggestion on how the skill could conceivably be changed to work at least semi-fluidly: soft cap of 1200 game units, hard cap 1800 game units. With the soft cap being as it is now (although I’d love for it to return to the original functionality, and I think it wouldn’t be (as) ‘game-breaking’ as it was before any changes), and the hard cap meaning that if you moved more than 1800 game units from the original location, the skill would reset to Infiltrator’s Strike (I think this would at least reduce the disorientation possibilities). Thoughts?

Olterin Fire.5960:

Personal suggestion on how the skill could conceivably be changed to work at least semi-fluidly: soft cap of 1200 game units, hard cap 1800 game units. With the soft cap being as it is now (although I’d love for it to return to the original functionality, and I think it wouldn’t be (as) ‘game-breaking’ as it was before any changes), and the hard cap meaning that if you moved more than 1800 game units from the original location, the skill would reset to Infiltrator’s Strike (I think this would at least reduce the disorientation possibilities). Thoughts?

I like this suggestion, but this is because I’d like more ‘gap-closing’ functionality on IS. However, many other people just want to keep it as a ‘get out of jail and take me home across the seven seas’ card, which is not entirely bad, but I think it constrains too much the skill’s versatility.