Guild Wars 2

ArenaNet,

Let’s discuss your change to Infiltrator’s Strike Shadow Return change you recently placed into the game. Before Shadow Return was Infinity to return to location (granted it had a timer). In your change you made Shadow Return a 1200 range.

We all know and understand why this change was put in place. Heck, I bounced back and forth on 50 players over and over and they could never kill me. Ok, sure I am most positive I and a few other S/P thieves were the reason for the change to 1200 range.

But let’s be realistic for a moment and look at a few aspects.

• S/P Thieves do not rely on mass stealthing all over the place, you built us this way.
• Infiltrator’s Strike has been the most survival ability for us (without the mass use of Stealth)
• The only power behind Infiltrator’s Strike, mainly, is to catch someone, and that is only 600 range to get to that person (granted with Steal it can be quite a bit more)
• Infiltrator’s Strike is the key survival to a S/P thief, it is what keeps us alive unless we’re out smarted.

So, there is a simple, general aspect of how a S/P. Ok, 1200 range, correct?

• Warrior Greatsword skills can avoid an entire zerg (seriously, it’s like the Energizer Bunny. they just keep going, and going, and going, and going . . .)
• Elementals can troll travel just like Warriors, and let’s not forget about trolling outside Keeps, only to run back in and self rez (rinse and repeat anyone?)
• Ranger Greatsword (need I say more?)

What I have listed above in all honesty is no different than the previous Infiltrator’s Strike. It allows the player to attack (out of stealth, just like most S/P thieves will play — remember, you designed us this way) when they want, and leave when they want. Warriors, Elementals and Rangers are extremely effective in this area — (S/P was).

Again: S/P thieves do not, again, do not rely on Stealth. We’re the most loved Thieves in WvW because we’re out in front of everyone without disappearing every 10sec(per se) but we put up a great fight. (Everyone loves a Thief that isn’t in pure stealth night and day, right?)

I do not wish to ask you to give Shadow Return Infinite. I am asking that you reconsider giving it a max of 2400, or 1800 at the least. 1200 told us S/P thieves you have no desire to continue to help/support this build, and left us in the dark.

Currently you have given great utility to Dagger setup Thieves, but you really have not looked at the S/P players. I know, I know — there are only a few in the game and it may be a waste of time for the developers to pass a little lover our way. We’re not able to Heartseeker out of Blackpowder, for one example, as we simply do not use Daggers. We’re Sword thieves with Pistols — We’re the Van Helsing of Thieves? (that might be a little much there, but you get the point).

My point is that your change was really harsh to the Thieves that don’t utilize stealth like Dagger thieves. So we’re out of stealth just as much as a Warrior, Elemental and Ranger. So here is one small thought to a change that S/P thieves are asking (well, at least I am, there’s just not many of us)

• If a Thieve chooses S/P setup, they get the following
• 2400 Shadow Return Range — only for S/P Thieves
• Dagger/X or X/Dagger Thieves will keep their current Combo abilities.

I think this is a fair, balance and meaningful way to give back to the few players you have that still enjoy S/P builds. After all, we don’t get what Dagger setup Thieves get (by any means) and I certainly hope you consider this for those that love Swords. And, Pistols.

Remember, to date S/P thieves have received the largest nerf to date, (Pistol Whip nerf a long time ago) so can you please consider this? I never complained once about the PW nerf, I felt it was justifiable (I honestly did, and still do). But something for the few of us would be nice.

Sincerely,
Sword / Pistol

Edited few things above and also wanted to add: I know this thread will greatly be ignored by many players and possibly the development team itself. It’s a fact: this setup is the least played among the thieves.

Here’s to trying, though.

I’ve been playing S/D + S/P a lot in PvP and WvW lately, and I have to say that I just plain disagree. It’s entirely unnecessary for S/P to get a longer range, it simply doesn’t need it. As someone who has been playing S/P for so long, you should understand how to use the evasion of IS and PW to your advantage, along with BP.

Sorry mate, I know how much you want to see S/P buffed, but it really doesn’t need it (besides a possible small damage revert on PW).

PS: Good luck ever getting a red post on the Thief forum, Anet reads these forums (like every other) I’m sure, but actually posting here is incredibly rare.

it’s not something Dev would do.

I think that something more than 1200 would be not OP, but it will me too complicated for thief gameplay. Right now we can use 1500 initiation with both steal+inf strike/inf strike+inf signet (And 4000 initiation for all-in tactic), and that range is more than enough to have free time, to cycle through cooldowns and initiative regen.
Actually PW is well rounded set, with all abilities being useful and logical.
I guess we could have some buff to headshot, or interrupt tactics (like confusion on interrupt, or might on interrupt), as well as buff to tactical strike. But overall, S/P do not require a buff, because when traited in a proper way, it is impossible to 1v1 with it, on top of being uncatchable in teamfights and dishing PBAOE heavy damage, preventing fast ressurects.
So in my opinion, sadly, i have to disagree with you and say that, the less S/P thieves are in quantity, the bigger they are in quality. Because S/P require a lot of experience to master interrupts and whips.

To your proposal about infiltrator strike – do you imagine the OPness of S/D… Yeah, i’ve seen that you said it would be only for S/P – but it is some kind of discrimination to other sets and it is what Anet won’t do.

There is also the problem of changing a number #2 weapon skill depending on the offhand, which isn’t implemented in the game. Closest thing is dual skills that are designed that way, I don’t think a Skill would be exactly the same but with different inner numbers depending on offhand that isn’t even involved in the skill effect.

The only thing we could ask for is the reducing aftercast time of slash and slice (AA chain), coupled with nerfed FS, it would be great for both sets.

The range nerf/fix was justified, the stunbreak removal though…

Only slightly on topic, S/P is extremely underrated. Most stopped using it back when PW damage got nerfed, but really PW is just for the evade/invul. I have more success with it than I do s/d

There is a problem with S/P…the problem is you being rooted for the duration of pistol whip. Self root in PvP Is pretty bad….then again, I mean if your opponent is dumb enough to stay in the pistol whip range like PvE monsters then yea it’s a good set.

If they take out the self root then yea S/P would be amazing for PvP, but I guess it’d be OP.

The problem with s/p is not the root or the damage.

It’s retaliation.

That boon will wreck you as a S/P even after they nerfed ret damaged.

Caom.9251:

The problem with s/p is not the root or the damage.

It’s retaliation.

That boon will wreck you as a S/P even after they nerfed ret damaged.

If that’s the only issue, then use S/D as switch set and steal the retaliation boon.

Caom.9251:

The problem with s/p is not the root or the damage.

It’s retaliation.

That boon will wreck you as a S/P even after they nerfed ret damaged.

The only reason retaliation is the problem its because you are rooted. >.<’

If you’re not rooted, you can move away as soon as you see the retaliation damage.

Nothing’s wrong with retaliation damage.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Caom.9251:

The problem with s/p is not the root or the damage.

It’s retaliation.

That boon will wreck you as a S/P even after they nerfed ret damaged.

The only reason retaliation is the problem its because you are rooted. >.<’

If you’re not rooted, you can move away as soon as you see the retaliation damage.

Nothing’s wrong with retaliation damage.

This argument kind of falls down to what came first : the boon or the root

If retaliation is already up you will not use pistol whip on the target in the first place, the boon is the problem. If the the target pops retaliation during the chain, this is where the root becomes the problem.

So which is more detrimental to the thief, preventing the usage of the ability in the first place or causing the thief more damage?

Well that all comes down to personal opinion. From my perspective preventing the usage of the ability as a whole seems to harm the thief more, but I can see why you feel that the root causing the thief to take more damage can also be the problem.

Azure.8670:

Only slightly on topic, S/P is extremely underrated. Most stopped using it back when PW damage got nerfed, but really PW is just for the evade/invul. I have more success with it than I do s/d

PW’s damage is fine when you run a Superior Sigil of Impact, which gives its 15% damage back from Pre-nerf.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Azure.8670:

Only slightly on topic, S/P is extremely underrated. Most stopped using it back when PW damage got nerfed, but really PW is just for the evade/invul. I have more success with it than I do s/d

PW’s damage is fine when you run a Superior Sigil of Impact, which gives its 15% damage back from Pre-nerf.

yes but pre-nerf you could run those force + impact sigils too and still be better off :P

PW damage may be fine, but there are still issues with the set. Such as the root, and multi hit making the user prone to effects of retaliation.

Caom.9251:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Caom.9251:

The problem with s/p is not the root or the damage.

It’s retaliation.

That boon will wreck you as a S/P even after they nerfed ret damaged.

The only reason retaliation is the problem its because you are rooted. >.<’

If you’re not rooted, you can move away as soon as you see the retaliation damage.

Nothing’s wrong with retaliation damage.

This argument kind of falls down to what came first : the boon or the root

If retaliation is already up you will not use pistol whip on the target in the first place, the boon is the problem. If the the target pops retaliation during the chain, this is where the root becomes the problem.

So which is more detrimental to the thief, preventing the usage of the ability in the first place or causing the thief more damage?

Well that all comes down to personal opinion. From my perspective preventing the usage of the ability as a whole seems to harm the thief more, but I can see why you feel that the root causing the thief to take more damage can also be the problem.

You’re looking at this from a very narrow view. Keep in mind that changing retaliations affects every professions, while changing PW only affects the Thief.

Changing retaliation has a potential of screwing up the balance every where, and that should not be the goal when having an open discussion. You should consider the scope of the change and what other aspect of the game will get affected.

Solving the rooting problem of PW will eliminate a lot of other problems, which in this case, taking damage from retaliation.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Caom.9251:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Caom.9251:

The problem with s/p is not the root or the damage.

It’s retaliation.

That boon will wreck you as a S/P even after they nerfed ret damaged.

The only reason retaliation is the problem its because you are rooted. >.<’

If you’re not rooted, you can move away as soon as you see the retaliation damage.

Nothing’s wrong with retaliation damage.

This argument kind of falls down to what came first : the boon or the root

If retaliation is already up you will not use pistol whip on the target in the first place, the boon is the problem. If the the target pops retaliation during the chain, this is where the root becomes the problem.

So which is more detrimental to the thief, preventing the usage of the ability in the first place or causing the thief more damage?

Well that all comes down to personal opinion. From my perspective preventing the usage of the ability as a whole seems to harm the thief more, but I can see why you feel that the root causing the thief to take more damage can also be the problem.

You’re looking at this from a very narrow view. Keep in mind that changing retaliations affects every professions, while changing PW only affects the Thief.

Changing retaliation has a potential of screwing up the balance every where, and that should not be the goal when having an open discussion. You should consider the scope of the change and what other aspect of the game will get affected.

Solving the rooting problem of PW will eliminate a lot of other problems, which in this case, taking damage from retaliation.

No, changes to any class also effects every other class.

For example thieves have been one major factor in the disappearance of mesmers and eles due to how flanking strike was altered, another example would be necromancers. Although your suggested change may not be as “radical” it still brings problems.

Bear in mind that PW was designed with the root in mind that is why there is a stun at the start of the chain as well as an evasion component. This basically prevents you becoming a easy target when being rooted. If you can have free movement it would make it more difficult for classes who don’t have access to retaliation to counter.

Also by removing the root you are not actually fixing the retaliation problem. If any class has ret up you would not attack that target under most circumstances, this means you still won’t be able to use PW. If the target pops retaliation during your PW you can still cancel it by dodging, shadowsteps etc. Your change will not resolve this issue as much as you hope.

My suggested change was not to nerf retaliation, I merely stated that retaliation was the problem with S/P. It is the problem for S/P because you are only capable of using the dual wield ability offensively, to hit the target, sure you could use the evasion component but the slight delay at the start makes it hard to time.

What I want for P/W is a second use, I want the evasion component to start slightly earlier and be reduced slightly at the the end. This would hopefully allow S/P to be used defensively and not useless when enemies have retaliation up.

Would there be problems with my suggestions? Absolutely, but that’s the whole point of this discussion (except it isn’t about Infiltrator’s Strike).

What’s this retaliation issue?

Step 1: Bind “stow/draw weapons”
Step 2: stop eating retal
Step 3: ?
Step 4: Profit!!

Folks we are getting a tad off subject here.

Some of the comments where those disagree I can understand, but may I ask: are your opinions based off of sPVP? Because they sound as if 1v1 in most cases. I do not play sPVP (because it is a structure environment of CTF or whatever, not a fan of those).

Shadow Return comment in my perspective is a Multiple Player situation generalization, not structured or 1v1. I walk away from 99% of my fights, but I would like to see S/P be a slight more effective (not in power or damage) in WvW zerg scenario’s.

Caom.9251:

No, changes to any class also effects every other class.

For example thieves have been one major factor in the disappearance of mesmers and eles due to how flanking strike was altered, another example would be necromancers. Although your suggested change may not be as “radical” it still brings problems.

But that is only when a Thief is present. A change to retaliation affects other profession even if the Thief is not present.

So why should we change something to other professions if the change is specifically to save Thieves from killing themselves when using PW?

Does that really makes sense to you?

Bear in mind that PW was designed with the root in mind that is why there is a stun at the start of the chain as well as an evasion component. This basically prevents you becoming a easy target when being rooted. If you can have free movement it would make it more difficult for classes who don’t have access to retaliation to counter.

You are contradicting yourself here. If the evade is to prevent Thief from being an easy target, then others will not be able to counter them anyway. So why even bother rooting?

Also by removing the root you are not actually fixing the retaliation problem.

There’s is not problem with retaliation, thus it doesn’t need to be fixed.

If any class has ret up you would not attack that target under most circumstances, this means you still won’t be able to use PW. If the target pops retaliation during your PW you can still cancel it by dodging, shadowsteps etc. Your change will not resolve this issue as much as you hope.

You got it this one wrong. Just because someone has Ret up, doesn’t necessarily mean I would not use PW. And if they pop Ret during PW, why do I have to waste me precious dodge and shadowstep to stop PW?

By removing the root, I can gauge and manage how much I am willing to risk. Rooting doesn’t give me this capability.

My suggested change was not to nerf retaliation, I merely stated that retaliation was the problem with S/P. It is the problem for S/P because you are only capable of using the dual wield ability offensively, to hit the target, sure you could use the evasion component but the slight delay at the start makes it hard to time.

If that is the case, then you are wrong to begin with.

You said: ‘That boon will wreck you as a S/P even after they nerfed ret damaged.’
I responded: ‘The only reason retaliation is the problem its because you are rooted.’

So if S/P have a problem with Ret, then S/P has to change, not Ret.

What I want for P/W is a second use, I want the evasion component to start slightly earlier and be reduced slightly at the the end. This would hopefully allow S/P to be used defensively and not useless when enemies have retaliation up.

That will not fix it since the real problem with PW is that it hits 9 times, thus triggers Ret for 9 times. The only fix for this is to limit the number of hits to 3 but the total damage dealt remains the same.

Would there be problems with my suggestions? Absolutely, but that’s the whole point of this discussion (except it isn’t about Infiltrator’s Strike).

We are still on topic though since OP used S/P as an example and mentioned PW.

I would love to address all you’re points separately, but my time is quite limited today. (I’ll come back tomorrow).

So let’s address one thing right now

“You got it this one wrong. Just because someone has Ret up, doesn’t necessarily mean I would not use PW. And if they pop Ret during PW, why do I have to waste me precious dodge and shadowstep to stop PW”

Okay to the point, I personally feel attacking a target with retaliation is not worth the risk as it is not rewarding enough (damage in comparison to the damage you take).

You obviously feel differently and I don’t mind that.

The issue might not lie with a single target , but a group. If you are hitting 2 or 3 targets that have retaliation up your health will go down incredibly fast, as though you were being bursted down. So even if you could potentially move and limit the number of attacks, you would only be able to get a small amount of hits in, or take massive damage.

This is why I feel that retaliation is the main problem and not the root.

I understand the repercussions of nerfing retaliation and I’m not for it (like I mentioned in the last post) but nor do I feel that we can do anything with the root on PW, unless we were to redesign the skill completely.

This is why I want ignore this problem because it cannot be fixed without major changes (although I do quite like the idea of reducing the number of strikes).

I want to give the attack another niche to fill.

Caom.9251:

I would love to address all you’re points separately, but my time is quite limited today. (I’ll come back tomorrow).

So let’s address one thing right now

“You got it this one wrong. Just because someone has Ret up, doesn’t necessarily mean I would not use PW. And if they pop Ret during PW, why do I have to waste me precious dodge and shadowstep to stop PW”

Okay to the point, I personally feel attacking a target with retaliation is not worth the risk as it is not rewarding enough (damage in comparison to the damage you take).

You obviously feel differently and I don’t mind that.

The issue might not lie with a single target , but a group. If you are hitting 2 or 3 targets that have retaliation up your health will go down incredibly fast, as though you were being bursted down. So even if you could potentially move and limit the number of attacks, you would only be able to get a small amount of hits in, or take massive damage.

That’s only true within the current situation where we are rooted and have to suck up all the damage. If we can move, we can use the stun part of the skill tactically while suppressing the burst damage. So even if the target or targets has retal, we can still use PW as an interrupt or evade.

This is why I feel that retaliation is the main problem and not the root.

I understand the repercussions of nerfing retaliation and I’m not for it (like I mentioned in the last post) but nor do I feel that we can do anything with the root on PW, unless we were to redesign the skill completely.

No need to redesign it. We’ve seen proof what Anet can do by looking at Flanking Strike. So either they remove the root, limit the number of hits to 3, or separate it into two skills just like FS/LS.

This is why I want ignore this problem because it cannot be fixed without major changes (although I do quite like the idea of reducing the number of strikes).

I want to give the attack another niche to fill.

There was a major discussion about this in this forum and there are tons of good ideas that Anet can use from there. The problem we are seeing is that, Thieves are at the bottom of the list. Compare the number of updates other professions had received, Thieves are left in the dark (pun pun).

Well, guys, one thing you may want to know, PW isn’t rooting you at place, you could hit movement button again, and you will move (interrupts PW ofc).
Mobile PW would be ridiculously OP.

dDuff.3860:

Well, guys, one thing you may want to know, PW isn’t rooting you at place, you could hit movement button again, and you will move (interrupts PW ofc).
Mobile PW would be ridiculously OP.

Not OP, viable. The main issue I have with the rooting is not that I take damage from retaliation, rather because of rooting, PWing a moving target places you pass the target and often times hitting nothing but air. In a game where there’s a lot of moving around, this is a major problem.