Guild Wars 2

Final Thoughts – 11 Oct 2012

• I have concluded that the opinion is roughly split into half about whether the change is good or bad. I personally feel that it was unwarranted and takes something unique out of the Thief class. It still works yes, but not in the same reliability as before.

• The world will not end nor will it make us suffer much in PVP which is why it makes it all the more sadder. It wasn’t game breaking in the first place, why bring it down weaker than a weapon skill now.

• Any Basilisk user will adapt to it, but I for one totally dislike the direction ANet seems to be pushing Thieves into.

Thief

• Basilisk Venom: Increased stun duration to 1.5 seconds. Stun breakers now work on this skill.

With the Basilisk Venom change, how does everyone think about its practical uses as an Elite Skill, versus Devourer Venom in PVP and to a lesser extent in PVE? This thread is for discussion purposes so please do let me know if there are any errors in my statements. Now for the meat and potatoes.

Even prior to the change, it didn’t make sense for non Venomous Aura (venom sharing) builds to take both Devourer and Basilisk, as the primary use of them is to catch a target and ensure your damage skills land. Secondary being for kiting a mob/player or running away.

Basilisk was clearly stronger when traited with Residual Venom (extra strike) for an unbreakable 2 second stun for initiative spam/damage dealing. And although Devourer immobilizes for a good 4-6 secs, it is breakable, and given any decent opponent would be broken anywhere from 1-3 secs and possibly instantly (lucky condition break/removal).

Now with Basilisk being changed to a breakable Stun, its advantage over Devourer in my opinion is completely gone. Not only in terms of duration, but in terms of reliability and any semblance of an Elite skill.

Not only is Basilisk now subjected to removal via traits, it is also removal by all the 20’ish stun break util’s from all the classes. In fact, several of these same stun breaks DO NOT remove Immobilize! Sure you might argue that condition breaks removes Immobilize easily, but in any given 1v1 or group fight, there’s going to be at least 3-4 conditions on the target and only a few skills can wipe multiple conditions compared to the multitude of GUARANTEED stun breaks.


TLDR: Broken down into point form with references. Stun Vs Immobilize.
Main purpose of both skills, to deliver unavoidable incoming damage unless an escape is used. Secondary purpose, to retreat from a bad matchup and run or kite a target.
Elite skill is at best level, if not worst in reliability and practical application to a Slot Skill.


Elite: Basilisk Venom
Pros

• Synergizes well with 6pc Rune of Lyssa
• Stuns prevent enemy from attacking and using weapon/non stun break skills
• Can interrupt channeled or casting time abilities
• Unbreakable by any method like Moa Morph

Cons

• Does not work on most champions
• Can be guranteed stun broken with 20 over utils and many traits
• Shorter duration than Devourer (traited or untraited its still 2-3 seconds shorter)
• Has a 1 sec cast time, cannot be used as a reliable interrupt
• Uses up Elite slot

Slot Skill: Devourer Venom
Pros

• Works on most champions due to it being a condition
• A good 1/3 of utility stun breaks will not break Immobilize and can be “covered” with mutliple other conditions to prevent removal
• Lasts longer than Basilisk
• Instant cast, can be chained into any attack, any time
• Has higher chance of reapplying due to 1 extra strike application
• Long 5 – 6 sec duration pressures opponents to use escape/removal compared to short 1.5 – 3 sec stun
• Easier to kite monsters

Cons

• Can’t use it with Rune of Lyssa
• Enemy can still attack while Immobilized
• Does not interrupt skill use
• Can be removed by larger number of condition removal skills
• Enemy can disable/stun you in return or transfer condition
  
  
  
  Once again I reiterate, for an Elite skill, it really doesn’t seem all that different from a Slot skill now does it? Was the change warranted? Thoughts and opinions please?

Good write up. Basilisk is now only useful if you pre-meditate someone’s heal at a critical moment, and time it perfectly, and in which case, it kind of didn’t matter anyway. Maybe some other minor uses. It gives us a stun though, and I can keep all my main utility survival skills. So the fact that Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild are not critical component skills in any fight, while your utility skills are, means that the stun is actually useful.

I plan to use Basilisk Venom now. I know that’s weird and contrary to the way things are going, but I see Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild as being good in certain circumstances, where a key stun on someone who is about to stomp a teammate is more important to be at this time.

I think you can’t compare; one is used to stun, to interrupt and deny the enemy his intended action. Immobilize is useful for stopping a fleeing enemy, or to keep someone put to apply more damage, but does not prevent their heal, condition removal, or usage of their own Elite skill to turn the tide of the fight.

When people get better and learn all the class animations, they will probably use Basilisk Venom more, because shutting down that enemy’s casting of Thieves Guild or their heal skill is more important – and available more often – than other Elite skills.

Our elite skill is a simple stun currently. It’s truly amazing how they could have done this.

While I do feel Basilisk Venom is kittened as an elite skill, I use it for one reason and one reason only. Pre-meditated, first degree murder.

That’s right, I’m talking about the ol’ “Bas Ven > Mug > CnD > AS > Backstab” combo.

I don’t always use the BS build, but when I do… I dirtbag the kitten outta people.

It’s pretty lame that our elite skill is nothing more than a simple co-pilot to an overall setup, but it serves its purpose. Ain’t no body reactin’ quick enough to pop outta that before I get my CnD off… and besides… Who the kitten wants to waste an entire CD just for a 1.5 second stun, when you already know what’s coming next, and can’t avoid it?

IMO this does not affect anything. It’s not like that 1 second stun is going to be enough to get off some powerhouse combo… except that one… but I’ve not seen a decline in my ability to pull that off, at all. Not one bit. It still works for what I need it for… and interrupting important skills too, which it still works for.

If you’re trying to use this for any other build… you were wasting you’re time pre-nerf and you’re wasting your time now. Just sayin…

Nah, I use basilisk and devorers venom like a boss. Their little stun break isnt up every 45 secs so I pop both venoms and It insures I get a backstab and waste their stun break, in pvp ofc. Ive been critisized for using them both at the same time yet had wonderful results. Melee can turn while rooted so it can make backstabbing hard against smart ones. they can also aoe and some aoes hurt, Id rather them sit quietly for me to backstab them or use a stun break so I can kick their kitten without worry that they will break out of it.

Vexus.5423:

I know that’s weird and contrary to the way things are going, but I see Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild as being good in certain circumstances, where a key stun on someone who is about to stomp a teammate is more important to be at this time.

When people get better and learn all the class animations, they will probably use Basilisk Venom more, because shutting down that enemy’s casting of Thieves Guild or their heal skill is more important – and available more often – than other Elite skills.

That’s some good points there, but with the one second cast time and the fact that you have to land a strike means together with lag and reaction time, you are actually talking about an stun that takes a good 1-3 seconds to apply.

Hell, even Scorpion Wire would make a better interrupt, displaces a stomp and gives knockdown. Sure you lose a survivability util but in exchange you get Dagger Storm/Thieves Guild.

So back to your first point, Basilisk is/was only good at premeditated attacks.

Genocide.8275:

That’s right, I’m talking about the ol’ “Bas Ven > Mug > CnD > AS > Backstab” combo.

I don’t always use the BS build, but when I do… I dirtbag the kitten outta people.

Ain’t no body reactin’ quick enough to pop outta that before I get my CnD off… and besides… Who the kitten wants to waste an entire CD just for a 1.5 second stun, when you already know what’s coming next, and can’t avoid it?

If no body ain’t reacting to you quick enough to get your CnD off, wouldn’t Immobilize do the exact same thing? Dev Ven > Mug > CnD > AS > Backstab > Dagger Storm? Now with sPVP being filled with Thieves, I’m sure players have started to recognize the Poison symbols on us.

Before there was nothing you could do to stop our Elite even if you saw the buff. Which was it’s one and only saving grace, it was unstoppable for us to do what needed to be done in a short timeframe.

If it was so imbalanced as an Elite, why didn’t they change Moa Morph too? Can you counter it? No. Can you even see it coming? Not unless he was casting it in your face.


I feel really sad to have such a unique Elite ability changed to be about as strong as any other stun weapon skill or even knockdowns, when it wasn’t even game breaking in the first place. It used to be an Elite, a game changer, I could stop someone dead in his tracks for 1-2 seconds.

Doesn’t have to be for back stab, doesn’t have to be for 1 trick ponies, I could stop people with stability. Now its a utility slot skill. Don’t you feel shortchanged?

It’s pretty kitten obvious the dev doing the balance change is biased. 15% PW nerf? 1.5 elite skill that’s kittenier than other professions’ NON-elite stuns (2 seconds)? Apparently the dev received one too many of that “assassin” backstabs and decided to do something about it.

I don’t mind the change too much, I like the extra .5 sec, it is a good trade off as it has a quick CD (quicker than most stun breakers). My problem BV is the cast time. I try to use BV as an interrupt to stop stomps / heals, but the cast time makes this quite difficult.

^yea this.

They need to make BV instant cast so that it can be a viable interrupter to heals or stomps. The cast time is what makes it worthless to me at least.

The change has very minimal effects in PvE as it still bypasses defiant.

It however has a major impact in either sPvP or WvW.

I play a venom thief on s/p and p/d. I would be ok with the change to make it breakable but I do not agree with the duration change. I think instead of adding .5 seconds (1.5X2 traited), they would have been better off adding one hit to basilisk. This would make 1X2 untraited (which is fine in my opinion since it’s breakable) and 1X3 traited (same as 1.5X2 in duration). This way, the thief can play mind-games with their target by holding back attacks and waiting on stun breakers, instead of the enemy just stun break the moment they see a stun effect. This is especially important for untraited since now basilisk is not worth an elite slot unless traited. You can do the same thing with devourer in 80% of the situations, and cover for the other 20% with a pistol offhand.

I also hope this would be revisited.

TJL

The skill is now useless yes. It confirms my belief that ANet’s pvp balancing team don’t know what the heck they are doing.

Before its main use was to set up a good backstab.

ANet please listen: Our ELITE skill is now a 1,5 stun with casting time.
Can you not hear how ridiculous that is?

Not only is Basilisk now subjected to removal via traits, it is also removal by all the 20’ish stun break util’s from all the classes. In fact, several of these same stun breaks DO NOT remove Immobilize! Sure you might argue that condition breaks removes Immobilize easily, but in any given 1v1 or group fight, there’s going to be at least 3-4 conditions on the target and only a few skills can wipe multiple conditions compared to the multitude of GUARANTEED stun breaks.

While I agree with the gist of what you’re getting at, your comparison here is poor.

You are focusing very hard on the ability of the target to move, and specifically to dodge. You are generally neglecting the part where an Immobilized target can still use defensive abilities (invulns, blocks, parries, blinds, protection, knockbacks, the list goes on). As a result, the stun is still valuable separate from the Immobilize.

WORTH IT as an elite? Meh. However, saying that Devourer > Basilisk is crying wolf. Stick with the actual argument.

If venomous aura is in your build, I would think it would come down to if you want to buff your team with a stun, or if you want to have thieves which you can buff with other venoms.
If it’s a simple devourer vs baslisk, if you can get behind them when they have devourer on and they cant hit you with abilities. Although stunning them out of a heal with basilisk was fun, I didn’t find the loss of thieves guild to be worth it. Basilisk to me was on par with other venom but not worth an elite spot, even less so that it can be broken out of now.

Just a reminder; 45 cooldown 1.5 second stun that does not take up any utility/survival slots. Meaning your build does not change by selecting this Elite over any other ability, whereas some classes, for example Mesmer, loses out on Mass Invis for the Moa. Meaning, a stealth build Mesmer loses out by going Moa. We don’t lose -anything- by going with Basilisk.

Dagger Storm is a ‘hope this does lots of damage!’ skill. It’s not necessary in any fight, it’s just fun. It’s not critical, and I don’t know of a fight I just had to have that skill available at that time.

Thieves Guild is a ‘lol you thought you could solo me!’ skill. It’s not needed to down that warrior who has a hard on for your death, but it’s tons of fun popping it in stealth and seeing him get wtfpwned by the confusion, blind, scorpion wire, and so on. It is more critical than Dagger Storm as it makes a small group much more effective at whatever they are doing by spreading DPS and tanking some damage over the spawned Thieves, but it’s not a critical gameplay choice. Fun, and useful, but you’re probably going to do OK without them in most situations. Not to mention 4 minute cooldown.

So, back to Basilisk:
1. You’re sticking on a <class> melee autoattacking or otherwise doing damage – even Short Bow… you see his arm go up and some light – he’s casting his heal which takes a few seconds to cast! Pop Basilisk Venom and stick on the guy → your next hit interrupts his heal at the perfect last second timing.
2. Your friend goes down to a group, and you see a warrior about to stomp him; he buys time by using his knockdown/teleport/other mechanic, but you’re not close enough. You run over to rez him, pop Basilisk and melee the guy who is now mid-cast on his stomp, interrupting him and going right for the rez to get your friend up.
3. You see an <AOE class> casting a channeled spell. Denied.
4. Someone is running away. Denied.
5. Encounter a good enemy player; deny his rotation and/or pre-planned attack with a 1.5 second stun.

I could go on, but it is much more useful, and up much more often, than the other Elites. It’s just people like Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild for the gimmicky times you get to use them. It’s effort and timing and perfection of your gameplay that will make Basilisk Venom more useful. This is the reason I am going to begin using it exclusively. Sure, I’ll switch to Dagger Storm when I’m about to go attack a zerg, or Thieves Guild if my group is only 2 people (maybe, debatable actually), but it makes sense that if you want to improve gameplay by either setting up sick backstabs or by utilizing it’s stun and interrupt ability without losing any utility/survivability, it’s just the way to go.

i dont know where this whole “dagger storm is useless damage” thing came from, it gives stability and reflects projectiles. not to mention its effective at destroying mesmer clones.

EasymodeX.4062:

You are generally neglecting the part where an Immobilized target can still use defensive abilities (invulns, blocks, parries, blinds, protection, knockbacks, the list goes on). As a result, the stun is still valuable separate from the Immobilize.

WORTH IT as an elite? Meh. However, saying that Devourer > Basilisk is crying wolf. Stick with the actual argument.

Well I did list those down on the pro’s and con’s list. I must agree the topic title is slightly misleading but I have bolded the actual argument in bold at the end of each post. Stun and Immobilize are different but ANet have made an Elite into a Utility skill, which is the point I’m trying to see how players are reacting to it.

Vexus.5423:

Just a reminder; 45 cooldown 1.5 second stun that does not take up any utility/survival slots. Meaning your build does not change by selecting this Elite over any other ability. We don’t lose -anything- by going with Basilisk.

Thieves Guild is a ‘lol you thought you could solo me!’ skill. It’s not needed to down that warrior who has a hard on for your death, but it’s tons of fun popping it in stealth and seeing him get wtfpwned by the confusion, blind, scorpion wire, and so on.

Good points all around, however I do disagree on some points.

You downplay the power of these two skills by a whole lot. Thieves Guild adds so much DPS/Control for any thief (non Backstab instagib build) during 1v1 or 1v2. Thats utility and added survivability right there with blinds, interrupts, confusion and instant burst.

Sure long cooldown, but its a real game changer. Have you seen the other classes Elite’s cooldowns? They’re really long too.

Also I won’t go into detail for Dagger Storm but it is also a survivability tool especially fights on node with multiple enemies. Stability + Reflect projectiles is strong and 90 secs is perfect cooldown in that its almost always up for each fight.

On to your other points

1. Stops heals :: If he pops his hand up and your Basilisk isn’t precasted, you are NEVER going to stop it. List of Healing skills and their duration. 90% are 1 to 1.5 second. Not Denied
2. Stop stomps :: Yes, it’s good to stop stomp. So are any of the other interrupts/dazes available to us. Basilisk even goes through a Stability stomp! It just isn’t as good as it once was. Disagree
3. Stops channeling skills :: Good point, agreed.
4. Stop fleeing enemy :: Devourer does the same thing. Disagree.
5. Fight good player ::Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild are just as good if not far better at interrupting any rotation of a player. Disagree.

So at the end of it all, it boils down to just the same darn thing. It still is usable but it isn’t an Elite anymore. I’m not discussing how you can use it now, I’m discussing how they made an Elite just another spare Utility skill. Any interrupt/daze/stun/knockdown weapon skill/utility can do just as well.

Are you happy for “just still usable” compared to its previous form of Elite interruption?

• It’s not about which Elite is better. It’s about the fact that they took an Elite and made it worst then a weapon skill stun or knockdown with longer cooldown. Yes it does add survivability with an added utility slot but so do the other 2 Elites.

• Therefore I disagree with your point that it doesn’t alter our builds. The builds may be the same but the play style to use our Elite to support us changes a whole lot.

PS. I have concluded that the opinion is roughly split into half about whether the change is good or bad. I personally feel that it was unwarranted and takes something unique out of the Thief class. It still works yes, but not in the same reliability as before.

The world will not end nor will it make us suffer much in PVP which is why it makes it all the more sadder. It wasn’t game breaking in the first place, why bring it down weaker than a weapon skill now.

Any Basilisk user will adapt to it, but I for one totally dislike the direction ANet seems to be pushing Thieves into.

The question shouldn’t be “Is Basilisk Venom a viable skill with some situational use”, it should be “Is Basilisk Venom good enough to be an elite skill, a class of skills considered powerful enough to be mutually exclusive”.

The answer is pretty simple: A 1s cast time for a 1.5 second breakable stun would not be out of place on a utility bar, but it doesn’t warrant an elite slot. The skill has situational use, but it isn’t so powerful that it should be mutually exclusive with the other elites, which is the entire purpose of having that segregated slot.

The fix is equally simple: Make Basilisk Venom a utility skill and give thieves another elite or buff a utility skill into elite status.

Yes, denying 4 simultaneous venoms might throw off some builds, but this could be rectified by creating a new venom elite. Besides, it’d be a chance to implement a worthwhile underwater elite for thieves.

Remove the cast-time.
The ability to chain-cast an unbreakable multi-second stun (through venom-sharing builds) was a bit cheesy and needed a tweak idd.
But now it’s still a stun with a 1 second cast-time, however one that can be instantaneously negated by a normal utility skill from pretty much any class.

Even if the CD would have to be tweaked a bit, the cast-time makes this skill under-perform vs. most normal utility venoms.
That isn’t right, especially considering this isn’t just one of our elites: it’s the only one we can use underwater.

Rune of Lyssa, that’s the only pro- Basilisk arguement…. in my experience.

Kind of sucks to be honest. I wish it had a longer recharge so that there was more of a reason to make it a good skill. When the cast time was longer (3 seconds, correct me if I’m wrong) it sucked even more, due to the number of times it would be interrupted and time spent preparing for a critical spike. For it’s actual effects right now, it would be far more appropriate as an instant cast, same as the utility skills…. but I wish it were just different in general.

I say… instant cast, or it shouldn’t even be considered a Venom anymore. Make that change for the betterment of life, then maybe the 1 or 1.5 second effect is warranted, and maybe 60 second minimum recharge would be much more appropriate. Otherwise, it’s just bad, as is currently. It’s a shame, because I really liked the skill and had a few awesome uses in mind for it, pre and post-“nerf” Hardly any build that can make use of this skill in-combat, and instead they all require pre-casting it while out of combat (subsequently making the rune of lyssa irrelevant). Not to mention, pre-casting it, and then getting into a group fight when you were expecting a 1v1, well… kiss your elite skill goodbye, useless…

Instant cast pleeeeeease? (begging voice) No-matter the cost, as I know that every skill needs to have a drawback. Maybe even cause it to drain a part of your Initiative, so that you could limit the potential for mid-spike abuse like the pistolwhip problem.