Guild Wars 2

Just wondering if ANET is going to nerf D/P near perma stealth via Blackpower +Heartseeker combo? Just doesn’t make sense if they do because hasn’t this been around since the start of the game? Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like it’s only been lately that people found out about it and started complaining about it…

But if D/P near perma stealth did get nerfed, how would you adapt?

They aren’t nerfing D/P.

I’d continue running a Sword main-hand and not consider D/P as secondary swap.

I doubt they will nerf perma stealth. The problem isn’t being able to stay in stealth forever, it’s being able to stealth every 4 seconds without having to use something counterable like CnD (yes you can counter with pulls/immobilizes. The window to do it is about 1/2 a second, and not every class has an instant one).

If they nerfed D/P just a bit I would probably still use it; the build is really forgiving and works well in a variety of WvW encounters.

D/P doesn’t need a nerf

if the thief is in perma stealth they are doing no damage to you, if you see them coming and drop the powder and HS then Dodge and they miss

i don’t play this build but i’m thinking about it just because it looks fun!

although the ability to get out of a situation without hitting someone, well that does sound nice now.. if im blind.. out i go… just like a theif should do

but still, in stealth = no dps

As a D/P thief I also do not think it requires a nerf. Black powder heartseeker combo is very initiative heavy so a thief that plays this would not be able to continuously shoot out multiple black powders. To slightly counter this all you need to do is to stand inside the blackpowder field so that the thief does not get in multiple heartseekers inside one blackpowder field to regen initiative. If you do this they will either heart seeker you and then get the reveal debuff or run out of initiative.

andyMak.6985:

but still, in stealth = no dps

Bad argument: in mistform = no dps. Doesn’t mean ele should be able to mistform at will. Not to mention that you regen in stealth, gain might and lose conditions. d/p definitely needs a tune down.

it does not need a tune down! Black Powder / heartseeker-Combo uses 9 (!) Initiative for non-IoS-users and 7 initiative for IoS users. Thats pretty much balanced for regenerating in stealth, gaining 2 might and losing one (or two) conditions, provided they are specced that deep into SA.

And additionally, your argument is even worse, Master of Timespace.2548. While thieves are able to stealth almost always at will and an ele is not able to mistform at will more than once every 60 secs, mistform still grants invulnerability, and stealth does not. People need to eliminate that short-sighted mindset stealth would make a palyer invincible. And i second this: A thief in perma-stealth may be around you, you may not see him, but for the very same duration he cannot do any damage. And additionally, perma-stealthing also costs a lot of initative and / or usage of utilities.
A thief remaining in stealth most of the time may be hard to kill, but he won´t kill you either. That IS balanced. Don´t forget about the existance of bunkers, who are hard to kill 1vs1 as well! They are not invisible, yes, but instead they can damage you all the time and they can contest stuff.

Master of Timespace.2548:

andyMak.6985:

but still, in stealth = no dps

Bad argument: in mistform = no dps. Doesn’t mean ele should be able to mistform at will. Not to mention that you regen in stealth, gain might and lose conditions. d/p definitely needs a tune down.

Mistform is also a invulnerability. Stealth isnt…
Just saying…

The BP+Heartseeker combo doesn’t just regenerate health and lose conditions, it also:

1) The Heartseeker will still hit your enemy, damaging them and closing the gap.
2) Allows you to Backstab for massive damage (if you are stacking crit damage, like any proper D/P thief does). Obviously CnD works for this too, but see point 3 – you can’t stop me from entering stealth, so I can backstab much more frequently.
3) Is effectively uncounterable. This is really huge – for just 3 more initiative than CnD, you can stealth at will, at any range, without fear of the target dodging/blocking Cloak & Dagger.
4) Regenerate health and lose conditions, as was mentioned already.

While you can technically counter the combo with something like Mesmer GS #5, the window to do so is very short. Also, such instant knockback skills are far and few between, and it has to be timed perfectly. It takes much more skill to counter the combo than me pressing 5→2.

I don’t think the issue is with permanent stealth (although it is kind of cheesy), but rather frequent, unmitigated access to it while fighting someone. The trait “hidden killer” allows me to do massive damage from stealth, without using any initiative (Backstab is free), freeing up all my initiative to keep repeating the combo.

yes i think they gonna nerf this when most of thief players mastered this play style and there wud be a thousands of Q_Q crying noobs on all other profession’s forum begging for nerf cuz their whole 5 man roamer party been assassinated by 1 D/P pro thief. then arena net will take a look at it… they maybe gonna nerf thief again maybe some increase initiative cost on HS or black powder?

I doubt they will increase the initiative cost unless they want to wreck the entire build. While the combo is extremely potent, it does cost a decent portion of initiative, and is the only thing that a D/P build does properly. The problem now is that you can just use the combo over and over again, to great effect, without having to spend any initiative on something else.

If I was a dev (and I know a few people who would be horrified at that suggestion), I’d change backstab to say “Damage is increased by 15% if wielding two daggers”, then reduce the base damage by 15%.

I want to see you bursting someone down the exact way you are describing it, Gamblit.
And yet it still requires to make use of the full duration of stealth, which is three seconds by the way, not four.
You do not understand its a thieves class mechanic to pop in and out of stealth in a rapid succession, right?
Your rotation implies the thief only uses Auto Attacks, Heartseeker and BP Shot in the exact same pattern all over again, no variations allowed. Then the initaive regain is barely enough to keep it up, yes. But there are other weapon skills to use which also use initative.

Cloak and Dagger may not guarantee stealth, but it costs less initiative to use – just 6 or 4, and is way more useful against minion classes (Necro, Mesmer, Turret-Engineer) and in surroundings with many other targets. Other than that BP Shot / HS is a stronger tool, i agree with that. But its not that more mighty to require a nerf, period. You still forget that a thief needs to be paper thin armored to do alot of damage, thus their class mechanic, stealth, is one of their only few defensive capabilities, and thieves pay for their high singletarget damage when they use this weapon set. It is well balanced. Other weapon sets just seem to be underwhelming because of the 4s revealed (which still isnt justified as it did more collateral damage than fixing a problem it was intended to fix).

lLobo.7960:

Master of Timespace.2548:

andyMak.6985:

but still, in stealth = no dps

Bad argument: in mistform = no dps. Doesn’t mean ele should be able to mistform at will. Not to mention that you regen in stealth, gain might and lose conditions. d/p definitely needs a tune down.

Mistform is also a invulnerability. Stealth isnt…
Just saying…

i know right. It isn’t really up for comparison. Stealth is our defense. Healing is eles. Also the healing you do do in stealth is about 1k for the 3 seconds your in stealth if you trait for that with D/P. It fully requires you to stay stealth there is no bleed over. The maxes at about 2.5k healing every 10 seconds which is negligible and you can’t dps while it happens.

Gamblit.5041:

Solution could be found here:
a) Make BP+HS add reveal debuff on damage,
b) BP+HS combo only gives 1-2 second stealth.

a ). Would make the set useless.

b ). Meld With Shadows doesn’t apply to BP + HS so it already has less stealth at a higher cost than other stealth builds.

Gamblit.5041:

Solution could be found here:
a) Make BP+HS add reveal debuff on damage,
b) BP+HS combo only gives 1-2 second stealth.

Your a) is totally kittenkitten as it makes a leap combo trough a smoke field totally pointless. I think you get that.
Your b) might be more applicable but that leap actually only gives 3 seconds, thieves have a trait to increase steslth duration but it doesnt apply here – and three seconds is barely enough to reposition for a backstab if the target is moving and has a little bit of skill. Thus, the current stealth duration is perfectly balanced.

Gamblit.5041:

Coloxeus.3480:

yes i think they gonna nerf this when most of thief players mastered this play style and there wud be a thousands of Q_Q crying noobs on all other profession’s forum begging for nerf cuz their whole 5 man roamer party been assassinated by 1 D/P pro thief. then arena net will take a look at it… they maybe gonna nerf thief again maybe some increase initiative cost on HS or black powder?

Solution could be found here:
a) Make BP+HS add reveal debuff on damage,
b) BP+HS combo only gives 1-2 second stealth.

make BP+HS add revealed buff on dmg!!!??? i will uninstall gw2 immediately lol!

TheBandicoot.5294:

I want to see you bursting someone down the exact way you are describing it, Gamblit.
And yet it still requires to make use of the full duration of stealth, which is three seconds by the way, not four.
You do not understand its a thieves class mechanic to pop in and out of stealth in a rapid succession, right?
Your rotation implies the thief only uses Auto Attacks, Heartseeker and BP Shot in the exact same pattern all over again, no variations allowed. Then the initaive regain is barely enough to keep it up, yes. But there are other weapon skills to use which also use initative.

Cloak and Dagger may not guarantee stealth, but it costs less initiative to use – just 6 or 4, and is way more useful against minion classes (Necro, Mesmer, Turret-Engineer) and in surroundings with many other targets. Other than that BP Shot / HS is a stronger tool, i agree with that. But its not that more mighty to require a nerf, period. You still forget that a thief needs to be paper thin armored to do alot of damage, thus their class mechanic, stealth, is one of their only few defensive capabilities, and thieves pay for their high singletarget damage when they use this weapon set. It is well balanced. Other weapon sets just seem to be underwhelming because of the 4s revealed (which still isnt justified as it did more collateral damage than fixing a problem it was intended to fix).

The build doesn’t burst anyone down, not in the same way as a 25/30/0/0/15 build does. I think we can all agree on this point.

However, it still does a considerable amount of sustained damage through constant Backstabs.

I agree that popping in and out of stealth is a thief mechanic, but that’s how CnD is balanced. Cloak and Dagger can be dodged, it can be blocked, and it is only used in melee range. It has a high initiative cost. In short, it can be countered. BP+HS has effectively no counter (I either backstab you, or fail the backstab and simply stealth again).

Thieves do not have to be paper thin to output high damage through this build. Hidden killer is an amazing trait that synergizes with Cavalier jewelry (power toughness crit damage) and Valkyrie gear. Obviously this can only be done in WvW, but that’s where the problem lies.

(If you use D/P in sPvP your point will be lost whenever you stealth, which is a different issue – why does our main defense mechanic stop point capping?)

Sunflowers.1729:

If I was a dev (and I know a few people who would be horrified at that suggestion), I’d change backstab to say “Damage is increased by 15% if wielding two daggers”, then reduce the base damage by 15%.

That would be okay, as long as it still keeps the 200% damage from actally stabbing the back.

Gamblit.5041:

Not a problem, here is a guy that uses BP+HS everytime his reveal is down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wns5Ca98qF8

He doesn’t even waits from 3 second stealth often. Initiative regen is not a problem for Thieves.

Nope, but he also runs around a lot doing nothing, or helps with other stealth skills to gain initiative. D/P does not need to be tuned down!

You cannot stack stealth using the leap combo unless you dont hit anything! Its a neat addition, but thats all. Nothing overpowered there.

CnD costs 4 Init when succesfull, 6 when wasted. BP Shot / HS costs 7, doesnt matter if successfull or not. I dont see a problem there besides CnD being more risk/rewardy.
And, just to make it clear, i use S/D and D/D. D/P is not what i use, so please dont think i defend that set because i am biased towards it.

Master of Timespace.2548:

andyMak.6985:

but still, in stealth = no dps

Bad argument: in mistform = no dps. Doesn’t mean ele should be able to mistform at will. Not to mention that you regen in stealth, gain might and lose conditions. d/p definitely needs a tune down.

i think just on the pulse if anything. like 1-2 sec pulse is good.

People are under the misconception that D/P has no counters.

This is no different from people who thought stealth meant the thief phased out of existence and there was nothing you could do about it.

This is completely a learn to play issue.

I’ll give you the fact that cloak and dagger has more ways to be countered then d/p but no way is it harder.

Thieves who use d/p suffer a much more hefty penalty then those that use d/d if they were to be interrupted. 9 initiative compared to 6 and once the stealth chains fails they won’t be able to reapply it. ( if you use black powder you don’t have enough initiative to pull of a heartseeker) If d/d fails you can instantly retry it.

D/P also has much longer set up time compared to CnD which means there is a bigger gap for counters to occur.

Now if you read on this far I’ll tell you how to counter one. Firstly you need to understand that stealth is only applied if heartseeker COMPLETES. This means you have 2 options to counter the initial stealth:
Interrupt the heartseeker (daze,stuns, knockback, fear to name a few).
Or you can simply knock the thief out of the blinding powder.

Also you should note that heartseeker has 3/4 sec cast time compared to CnD 1/2second so if you can interrupt that this shouldn’t be too difficult to do. Now 3/4 seconds is a very short time period I know but consider this if you see a d/p thief using blinding powder he is most likely to cast heartseeker next so you can precast your Stun etc you will be able to stop him, CnD on the other hand is less predictable.

What if you failed to counter the stealth?
Well if the thief you are fighting is going to chain he will constantly be jumping through the blind puddle with heartseeker. Simply stand next to it and he will be forced to either stop chaining or get revealed which makes him dead meat.

Certain classes will have easier times to counter the thief and others a much harder. This due to different traits and weapon sets with the lack of interrupts, but most classes do have access to at least one form of interrupt skill to be used.

D/P is in a good place. If you run it in tPvP against top 200 premades, it certainly feels like it is right where it should be.

This talk about BP+HS perma stealth is all good and well, but you aren’t capping/defending any points or killing anyone while you’re spamming it. It just prolongs fights, which a D/P thief usually doesn’t want to do. And if you’re trying to brawl as a D/P thief, you’re doing it wrong.

If anything, I think offhand dagger needs a buff. Dancing dagger is next to useless ever since the nerf, and CnD is kind of meh.

That blind shot travels quite slowly and can easily dodged. The blind debuff itself can be removed with an auto attack. If he is firing at you close range the thief would not be trying to chain and going for a backstab. If he is trying to chain then stand close to it. I would say most d/p thieves try to chain a bit further away from their target due to high chance of hitting them.

Also certain attacks aren’t even effected by blind such as the mesmer daze puddle, focus pull, minions and pets etc. The guardian shield bubble is also not effected and if he is jumping at you with heartseeker use it and knock him to interrupt that heartseeker to prevent stealth.

Also Surprisingly the smokefield does not actually cause blind on targets outside of the blind field. Only if you stand within it. So if you start the attack (eg shield bash for the warrior ) outside of the puddle you will get a hit. Most likely due to the fact that the blind puddle is quite a small radius so the target can be hit from melee outside of that field.

Each weapon set has their own unique benefits ( except for P/P cause it’s really crap, if you want ranged go shortbow) and weaknesses. If you get countered as D/P you really suffer alot more then D/D. This is the reason why I feel the weapons are balanced.

Each one excels at different situations such as group fights where D/P suffers because it becomes a lot harder to pull off due to the time taken as well and the fact that you are much more likely to be interrupted then D/D. Also CnD is much more easier to pull as there are more targets for you to hit. The damage output with D/D would also be higher due to cloak and dagger etc etc…

That blind shot travels quite slowly and can easily dodged. The blind debuff itself can be removed with an auto attack. If he is firing at you close range the thief would not be trying to chain and going for a backstab. If he is trying to chain then stand close to it. I would say most d/p thieves try to chain a bit further away from their target due to high chance of hitting them.

Thats a lots of kitten to do just to counter someone pressing two buttons.

Gamblit.5041:

I think Yishis[RIOT] made the best video to demonstrate how overpowered is D/P spec with stacking Stealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRcTKt47ixk

Funny thing is you can actually get off 4 hearseekers in 1 BP if you know how, which this guy doesn’t do. Makes it even better.

Probably not, but D/P deserves a nerf. There is no hard counter to it, unlike CnD, in fact, it even adds blinds on top of it. You can say CC/Pulls but the fact is the window to use it is small, you are likely to be blinded so it will miss, or you will autoattack to rid of the blind, in which case the window is closed to CC/pull, with the CD on most of those being ~30s.

I’m just going to laugh at this. D/P seems effective and I have tried it and played against D/Pers. The same QQers are the same that can’t handle most other thief builds. You see a D/Per getting set up for his move, ether evade out of range and give him a reason not to chase you down in stealth then unleash hell in that 4 soon to be 3 second gap (You have longer though because of set up.) or just let him do his thing, let him HS you. Then evade out of the way, for a thief it’s easier with shadowsteps but you can do it. He loses his BS and now will ether stealth again with BP+HS and waste more initiave to try again or burn a utility/heal.

D/P can be annoying but with patience in a fight you can burn them down to where they wasted their utilities and initiave and heal to try and get you, or they run off and save you both time.

Necros, have you tried to look for the animation of BP and then evade the intial shot that blinds you, then try fearing when they do HS. You just wasted precious stealth time for them to BS you.

Mesmers, have you tried using Temporal curtain as soon as they fire BP? You can pull them right out of their BP. BP+HS Stealth only works if there’s a BP field close enough for them to HS through and if they waste a HS to get close then a HS to stealth, you wasted initiave. Keep that up and hell, even use GS #5 when they HS at you from BP.

Just keep doing that. Engineers, just pop a net turret. That’ll screw them up enough if they don’t take it out.

And even if you can’t be bothered to learn or time a counter, just run away. Or run long enough they burn a few HSers. Most thieves will chase you down when you run because you appear to be easy or intimediated/scaried. Let them burn those for a gap closer and once they do, turn around and give hell. He won’t be able to pop BP+HS and will be forced to burn a utility or heal. If you are good enough and can time things, you can prevent that from happening and get them.

Xter.6271:

I’m just going to laugh at this. D/P seems effective and I have tried it and played against D/Pers. The same QQers are the same that can’t handle most other thief builds. You see a D/Per getting set up for his move, ether evade out of range and give him a reason not to chase you down in stealth then unleash hell in that 4 soon to be 3 second gap (You have longer though because of set up.) or just let him do his thing, let him HS you. Then evade out of the way, for a thief it’s easier with shadowsteps but you can do it. He loses his BS and now will ether stealth again with BP+HS and waste more initiave to try again or burn a utility/heal.

D/P can be annoying but with patience in a fight you can burn them down to where they wasted their utilities and initiave and heal to try and get you, or they run off and save you both time.

Necros, have you tried to look for the animation of BP and then evade the intial shot that blinds you, then try fearing when they do HS. You just wasted precious stealth time for them to BS you.

Mesmers, have you tried using Temporal curtain as soon as they fire BP? You can pull them right out of their BP. BP+HS Stealth only works if there’s a BP field close enough for them to HS through and if they waste a HS to get close then a HS to stealth, you wasted initiave. Keep that up and hell, even use GS #5 when they HS at you from BP.

Just keep doing that. Engineers, just pop a net turret. That’ll screw them up enough if they don’t take it out.

And even if you can’t be bothered to learn or time a counter, just run away. Or run long enough they burn a few HSers. Most thieves will chase you down when you run because you appear to be easy or intimediated/scaried. Let them burn those for a gap closer and once they do, turn around and give hell. He won’t be able to pop BP+HS and will be forced to burn a utility or heal. If you are good enough and can time things, you can prevent that from happening and get them.

Shadow shot while spamming backstab before the second attack of shadow shot completes.

Instant 900 range teleport gap closer that gives a backstab. Any good D/P thief would do that.

thhoj.9382:

As a D/P thief I also do not think it requires a nerf. Black powder heartseeker combo is very initiative heavy so a thief that plays this would not be able to continuously shoot out multiple black powders. To slightly counter this all you need to do is to stand inside the blackpowder field so that the thief does not get in multiple heartseekers inside one blackpowder field to regen initiative. If you do this they will either heart seeker you and then get the reveal debuff or run out of initiative.

STOP telling them !

Gamblit.5041:

Heh, 7 inititative is nothing for D/P thief.
3 initiative while 3 second stealth + 3-4 initiative while under 4 seconds reveal + 2-3 Initiative from Opportunist during reveal phase.= 8-10 initiative regen.

Thief is a burst class – the line Stealth = no DPS – doesn’t matter to thieves. They will just regen, and burst your down with same skills 3 seconds later. Since Thieves skills are not on cooldown.

Please don’t try to defend D/P, it needs a nurfe.

We can start with how: Blackpowder + Heartseeker combo = it does damage and then stealth the Thief. Resulting in 100% chance for Theif to go in to stealth while dealing heartseeker damage. – That’s crazy overpowering combo. Not even Cloak and Dagger garanties thief a 100% chance to go in to Stealth, while dealing damage.

Seems like somebody needs to learn how to fight agains D/P …

D/P does around 20-40 % less burst dmg than D/D 25/30/0/0/15 specc.
Depending on runeset of course.

But nontheless, the dmg you lose is very noticable.

Also, you might want to “reroll” a thief yourself and try how many BP+HS you get with your imba regen .. And then, when you are in imba stealth mode, you can try to BS somebody ..

With the lowini you have you lose another 10% dmg for the opener.

And your “Resulting in 100% chance for Theif to go in to stealth while dealing heartseeker damage” does what ?
You mean the imba dmg HS does to targets above 50% HP ?

Lol

Seriously, go play D/P + 10/30/30/0/0 or some variation and then compare to D/D 25/30/0/0/15 and then come back and revert your statement.

Thx.

Doomdesire.9365:

Shadow shot while spamming backstab before the second attack of shadow shot completes.

Instant 900 range teleport gap closer that gives a backstab. Any good D/P thief would do that.

Yes. this trick is nice, but does not work 100% of the time.
SS needs LoS , sometimes you wont be able to get the shot of.

And you only teleport if your shot does hit, but initiative is lost on triggering the action … just saying.

lvis.3824:

Doomdesire.9365:

Shadow shot while spamming backstab before the second attack of shadow shot completes.

Instant 900 range teleport gap closer that gives a backstab. Any good D/P thief would do that.

Yes. this trick is nice, but does not work 100% of the time.
SS needs LoS , sometimes you wont be able to get the shot of.

And you only teleport if your shot does hit, but initiative is lost on triggering the action … just saying.

The amount of initiative lost is alot more cost effective than another BP/HS or 2X heartseeker. I also find most of the time LOS rarely gets in the way.

I am not even going to try to break this down (too tired from the ele forums). Best way to beat it is to just range. Seriously its range and just don’t stand in the black powder.

Doomdesire.9365

Shadow shot while spamming backstab before the second attack of shadow shot completes.

Instant 900 range teleport gap closer that gives a backstab. Any good D/P thief would do that.

Oh my, I believe you are refering to my 2 suggested class counters. Welp, you’re wrong. Sorry.

If a necro feared you while you were stealthed and gained some distance, chances are, by the time you are in range and use the skill, you’re already unstealthed. If he was smarter he’d lay wells on top of himself too. Very not great to be in that position.

If a mesmer pulled you from your BP with his Temporal Curtain, he better be smart enough to pull you a good bit. And even then, by the time you get up and get back in range of the BP, you MIGHT get one HS over it. If he knocked you back during your HS with Greatsword #5, you don’t have the time to get up, and Shadow shot him. You gotta remember the skill activation times too. If that mesmer was smart too he gain some distance to be out of range.

And every class with a crowd control can do this. Hell even on my thief I could lay that knockdown trap, take 4 steps back and laugh when he goes right into my trap. Wasted his stealth, I can stealth off him, and wait till he pops and pop an unload and maybe something else. Hell I could even Scorpion Wire him out of BP.

Be creative.

I think the mug changes will somewhat lessen some of the worries people have with d/p builds, in that you can’t throw out as big a spike of damage after stealthing right away.

I still think they should just remove chain stealthing entirely… not stealth stacking, just the immediate restealth on unstealth.

People aren’t very smart… u just stand in the thieve’s black powder and they get revealed when they try to heartseeker through it…..

But anyway, it won’t get nerfed because it’s not a burst spec anyway. If anything it will get BUFFED like they said—by raising thief damage overall so he can deal more without going full glass. “Half glass” d/p builds just get eaten by people who aren’t afraid of blackpowder… it’s no big deal to lose 2 attacks out of a 9 strike attack really, but people panic and start dodging away like mad

ens.9854:

People aren’t very smart… u just stand in the thieve’s black powder and they get revealed when they try to heartseeker through it…..

How’s that? If you hit an enemy with heartseeker through black powder, you actually still go into stealth. I do this all the time to combo into backstab. It’s inconsistent with various other abilities in the game that will destealth you (i.e. engg using acid bomb to combo with smoke field), but it works. Try it out on a training dummy in HotM.

The thief can also use heartseeker without a target to just leap in the direction their facing and not even hit anyone… provided you’ve turned your auto-target option in the options menu off, which you hopefully have…

It will still stealth you to begin with (your first strike) in the same way CnD will however any further hits while your stealthed will reveal you in the same way CnD will.

So if someone stands in or near the blackpowder spot your unlikely to get more than the initial one off.

A thief that manages 3 heartseekers through the blackpowders only going to have around 6s of usable stealth with the time it takes to actually use heartseeker let alone position for the next ones you use up your first stealth application and achieve nothing but still be where you marked your positon for the enemy to see.

d/p does have a huge counter to it and that is a ranged interrupt. When they put down BP, that’s already a give away of what their going to do next. The window is big so interrupt them at this point; chances are you’ll interrupt their HS making them blow 9 initiative with no gain. At that point the thief would have to retreat or die since he has practically no initiative left. I found this out when I was running a s/p build (I had just hit 80). A d/p thief tried to take me and a newly leveled 80 warrior on and all I did was use HS whenever the thief used BP and it would prevent her from using stealth for a significant time each time. She tried using her SB to escape, I used mine to catch up as she couldn’t get far since she had hardly no initiative left. I pulled her in using scorpion wire and the warrior made quick work of her. The end.

Yamsandjams.3267:

I still think they should just remove chain stealthing entirely… not stealth stacking, just the immediate restealth on unstealth.

They already have. It’s a debuff called revealed. Whenever you deal damage in stealth you are revealed for 4 seconds, soon to be reverted back to 3 seconds.

I think the enormously long duration stealths (from HS/BP and Refuge) are both dumb and will be nerfed.

I don’t see anything else about D/P that’s demanding a nerf though, it’s a strong dueling spec with reasonable burst.

Why do people keep saying to stand in the black powder? If you don’t move, guess what? I’m going to Backstab you.

the trick is to stand there spin and then dodge out. the purpose it to get hit by HS and avoid the BS……it works. its how i play when i use S/D against it. works fine for me…although it does take some practice. i use ambush alot too. stand right in the middle of him and move back and forward….rarely get hit :P then i just stay invis the next 10 secs til i summon another. cheap? sure! so is d/p tho :P not hating…d/p is my backup. s/d is better and p/d is better in zerg play. d/p and sword pretty much own dueling tho. too much aoe……collateral dmg….fear….to deal with when playin d/p ……and i am not helping my guild by staying on the edge kiling strays.

Kayji.4390:

d/p does have a huge counter to it and that is a ranged interrupt. When they put down BP, that’s already a give away of what their going to do next. The window is big so interrupt them at this point; chances are you’ll interrupt their HS making them blow 9 initiative with no gain. At that point the thief would have to retreat or die since he has practically no initiative left. I found this out when I was running a s/p build (I had just hit 80). A d/p thief tried to take me and a newly leveled 80 warrior on and all I did was use HS whenever the thief used BP and it would prevent her from using stealth for a significant time each time. She tried using her SB to escape, I used mine to catch up as she couldn’t get far since she had hardly no initiative left. I pulled her in using scorpion wire and the warrior made quick work of her. The end.

Good tip, still annoying if you get hit with the initial shot from black powder though..

its a slow shot. take some practice to dodge it. but yeah this is right on. also use ambush….the npc u can stand in middle of back n forth etc. they really soak up alot fo backstabs.

Nettle.9025:

D/P is in a good place. If you run it in tPvP against top 200 premades, it certainly feels like it is right where it should be.

This talk about BP+HS perma stealth is all good and well, but you aren’t capping/defending any points or killing anyone while you’re spamming it. It just prolongs fights, which a D/P thief usually doesn’t want to do. And if you’re trying to brawl as a D/P thief, you’re doing it wrong.

If anything, I think offhand dagger needs a buff. Dancing dagger is next to useless ever since the nerf, and CnD is kind of meh.

The only accurate and unbiased post this entire thread.

Gamblit.5041:

Caom.9251:

That blind shot travels quite slowly and can easily dodged. The blind debuff itself can be removed with an auto attack. If he is firing at you close range the thief would not be trying to chain and going for a backstab. If he is trying to chain then stand close to it. I would say most d/p thieves try to chain a bit further away from their target due to high chance of hitting them.

Also certain attacks aren’t even effected by blind such as the mesmer daze puddle, focus pull, minions and pets etc. The guardian shield bubble is also not effected and if he is jumping at you with heartseeker use it and knock him to interrupt that heartseeker to prevent stealth.

Also Surprisingly the smokefield does not actually cause blind on targets outside of the blind field. Only if you stand within it. So if you start the attack (eg shield bash for the warrior ) outside of the puddle you will get a hit. Most likely due to the fact that the blind puddle is quite a small radius so the target can be hit from melee outside of that field.

Each weapon set has their own unique benefits ( except for P/P cause it’s really crap, if you want ranged go shortbow) and weaknesses. If you get countered as D/P you really suffer alot more then D/D. This is the reason why I feel the weapons are balanced.

Each one excels at different situations such as group fights where D/P suffers because it becomes a lot harder to pull off due to the time taken as well and the fact that you are much more likely to be interrupted then D/D. Also CnD is much more easier to pull as there are more targets for you to hit. The damage output with D/D would also be higher due to cloak and dagger etc etc…

I think Yishis[RIOT] made the best video to demonstrate how overpowered is D/P spec with stacking Stealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRcTKt47ixk

I don’t know that this video is a good example to show that a particular build is overpowered. The player is evidently quite skilled and it cannot be said that his opponents are as good as he is. If you want to show that it is overpowered in a PVP setting, you will have to demonstrate that similarly skilled players are 1.) incapable of countering it or 2.) require an inordinate amount of effort to counter it.

He doesn’t have to be excellent. He even tells you in his video. It’s just impossible to kill him 2v1 and if he is in real danger he has the tools to escape.
That permanent blinding+stealth needs to go – without hurting other thief builds.

You don’t need to be ultra skilled to play that build, it helps for sure, but it’s just timing of two skills.

Nettle.9025:

Funny thing is you can actually get off 4 hearseekers in 1 BP if you know how, which this guy doesn’t do. Makes it even better.

had to be completely lag free to pull out 4, which isn’t the case in WvW half the time.

What is D/P doing that D/D isn’t? D/P is trading burst via CnD in favor of defense for BP and field use. This is intended and not the problem. What is the problem? It’s the initiative regen. And if ANet agrees with this assessment, the whole class will pay the price because this class doesn’t provide enough burst to down bunkers and when geared as a bunker you can barely provide the burst to down glass.

If we want to have an honest discussion about this class than be realistic in approaching the real issues.

Atherakhia.4086:

the whole class will pay the price because this class doesn’t provide enough burst to down bunkers

yes you can, with 3 npc and a little help from runes.
im sure there are other utility combinations that does almost the same
still tight, but balance is tilting this way with these patches