Guild Wars 2

Tried playing Pistol/Pistol the other day, and I did barely more damage with Unload than what I deal with the first two NORMAL attacks with the dagger which take far less time. Unload takes about three seconds for 400 damage.
The dagger attacks three times in 1.5 seconds dealing 500-700 ish.

… What’s the point picking dual pistols?

So basically does it need a buff? Or doesn’t it?

I don’t like P/P but if I were going to make a build it would be based around “on crit” stuff. Like Sigils, runes, traits whatever you get for critting and stacking a bunch of precision. The only thing it’s got going for it is high attack speed.

Yes it does, Arenanet can make P/P viable for both power crit and condition damage builds with the following changes:

1. Instead of adding bleed, it adds 1 stack of vulnerability for 5 sec.
2. Instead of adding vulnerability, it adds 3 stacks of bleeding for 8 sec. 3i, decent damage.
3. Increase damage by 15%, increase firing speed by 20%.
4. Increase damage by 300%.
5. Reduce initiative cost by 1.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Yes it does, Arenanet can make P/P viable for both power crit and condition damage builds with the following changes:

1. Instead of adding bleed, it adds 1 stack of vulnerability for 5 sec.
2. Instead of adding vulnerability, it adds 3 stacks of bleeding for 8 sec. 3i, decent damage.
3. Increase damage by 15%, increase firing speed by 20%.
4. Increase damage by 300%.
5. Reduce initiative cost by 1.

Yeah, I don’t see why a head shot would deal a minimal amount of damage? I
I mean… Do you take lightly in getting shot in the head? Just wondering. If you do then I seem to be living in the delusion that headshots are… could it be… Lethal? I MUST BE MAD! Call a mental hospital!

I don’t understand why you’re proposing to brutally maul pistol #1 with the nerf hammer Blazer. Is it just to make pistol #2 a marginal skill?

Pistol 4 and 5 are strong skills as is. 2 and 3 are pretty underwhelming and the main problem with the set. In theory this should be a stronger dueling set than short bow, but the initiative damage dumps pale so badly next to cluster bomb that it’s barely worth the effort.

Pistol main hand is basically Sneak Attack (via P/D) or bust

Ensign.2189:

Pistol 4 and 5 are strong skills as is.

Pistol 4 is a strong skill is it…? o_O
Could you elaborate?

Ensign.2189:

I don’t understand why you’re proposing to brutally maul pistol #1 with the nerf hammer Blazer. Is it just to make pistol #2 a marginal skill?

Pistol 4 and 5 are strong skills as is. 2 and 3 are pretty underwhelming and the main problem with the set. In theory this should be a stronger dueling set than short bow, but the initiative damage dumps pale so badly next to cluster bomb that it’s barely worth the effort.

Pistol main hand is basically Sneak Attack (via P/D) or bust

Those changes improve every build with pistols.

The P/D condition build would actually become better because you can stack your bleeds higher and faster with the new Body Shot… more than you can do currently with Vital Shot spam which costs no initiative, improving the power of P/D build. Never said anything about Sneak Attack, that would still be in place so you probably misunderstood. Also you call the new Body Shot marginal? a 3i cost ability which does direct damage and applies 3 bleed stacks which should do decent damage and last for 8 sec from a 900 range. That ability is good and only gets better in a condition build. Current Body Shot is terrible.

The P/P power crit build would actually become viable because of higher unload damage and faster unload execution, the Vital Shot spam provides a good condition now. Black Powder is good in PvE, in PvP it costs too much and needs a -1 initiative cut. Head Shot would become viable for interrupting during the actual combat. I only use Head Shot as an anti-rez, nothing else. You know why? If you use Head Shot you lose a lot of initiative which are needed for damage and you only get a 0.25 (or 0.5) daze. If the damage of Head Shot is increased, then it would actually be a useful ability and you would have variety between using it and doing less but noticable damage and interrupting or chosing to spend your initiative on Unload or Heatseeker/Shadowshot in case of D/P for a lot more damage but no interrupt.

The D/P power crit build would be improved as well with improved Head Shot as mentioned above and it gets a little more defense with a -1 initiative cut on Black Powder.

The S/P power crit build would be improved as well and this might actually make this weapon set to dominant, but hopefully if improvements like these are implemented they will (or should) also nerf quickness to reduce the strenght of all those quickness 2 shot combo’s. If quickness is nerfed then this S/P build will remain balanced.

TwiceDead.1963:

Ensign.2189:

Pistol 4 and 5 are strong skills as is.

Pistol 4 is a strong skill is it…? o_O
Could you elaborate?

It interrupts.

So it stops heals. It stops revives. It stops casts.

P/P is fine as it is. Works just fine as utility weapon with decent bleeds. It’s not supposed to be a ranged pistol whip :P

I play P/P Shortbow and love it. My playstyle in w3 is either solo or small man and I rarely die. When traited, unload can do a lot of damage. The only thing I might suggest changing is increasing the duration of the vurnability from body shot. Currently, it’s only useful in conjunction with coordinated spike DPS from your group members. As far as debuffing your own DPS, you burn out of ini once you get a few stacks then have none left to finish off the target. Bodyshot should do more damage too.

Emerge.9640:

The only thing I might suggest changing is increasing the duration of the vurnability from body shot. Currently, it’s only useful in conjunction with coordinated spike DPS from your group members. As far as debuffing your own DPS, you burn out of ini once you get a few stacks then have none left to finish off the target. Bodyshot should do more damage too.

I agree on this. Good point.

P/P is abit underwhelming. But the entire thief is “bugged” with a case of not knowing what to do.

The autoattack 1 does less damage than other/most other classes ranged auto attack. Unload itself is weak and since its 8 times one shot. Some defensive skills really hurts if you use it.
Also I dont understand why a thief applies so little bleeding as they do. Or why poisons dont stack. Its counterintuiative. Burst damage is not really there either…
If P/P perhaps got a bleed with unload. And poisons stacked. Then we could talk again.

Unload hits for 6-10k

Emerge.9640:

Unload hits for 6-10k

With 260% crit damage and 60% critrate it hits more for 4-5K than 6-10K. Its like saying Killshot from a warriour always hits for 15-20K.

lol at 6-10k unload, good luck doing that in sPvP. Don’t even bring up WvW because there is no balance there duo to gear difference. Unload is weak.

It’s in W3, dunno what it is in sPvP. I’ve always like 1vX fights with unknowns around every corner.

Still, unload hits for 6-10k.

MikeB.3857:

TwiceDead.1963:

Ensign.2189:

Pistol 4 and 5 are strong skills as is.

Pistol 4 is a strong skill is it…? o_O
Could you elaborate?

It interrupts.

So it stops heals. It stops revives. It stops casts.

It doesn’t stop heals, some heals are instant. It stops 1 shot combo on allies, revives, stomps and casts which can be a heal.

Is Head Shot worth it to use the initiative to prvent a revive? rarely, if you have an AoE option like D/D, S/D or Shortbow it is better just to AoE damage the downed player and the person who is reviving him.

Is Head Shot worth it to use the initiative to prevent a stomp? yes, you are preventing the death of your team mate and you can control the stomper for 2-3 sec if you time it right so you get a lot of value out of your initiatve.

Is Head Shot worth it to use the initiative to DELAY a cast, since the cooldown won’t be triggered? rarely, I haven’t experienced many situations in which the target has a certain health value which demanded me to interrupt his heal with a Head Shot instead of just finishing him with Unload before the heal cast time would be over.

Is Head Shot worth it to use the initiative to prevent your ally from getting 1 shotted by quickness Pistol Whip or Hunderd Blades? if they have a stunbreaker or evade ready for immob? no. If they don’t? yes.

Head Shot has its uses, but it is not good enough to compete.

Emerge.9640:

It’s in W3, dunno what it is in sPvP. I’ve always like 1vX fights with unknowns around every corner.

Still, unload hits for 6-10k.

No argument regarding the power of an ability will ever be taken serious if it is related to WvW. WvW was designed to not be balanced, it will never be balanced and the whole point of WvW has been unbalanced fun and grief. There is gear difference in WvW.

In sPvP where balance matters, unload is garbage.

I run a backstab D/D build w/ P/P as my secondary. With stats focused on power/crit/crit damage, Unload will put a pretty dent into an inattentive opponent w/o being in melee. This tends to be a pretty solid option to switch to while I wait on cds in team fights w/ a lot of AoE to worry about. As stated earlier, Head Shot is a great at assisting/protecting your teammates, despite the initiative cost. Black powder is also a great way to near guarantee stomps.

Aesthetically, naming the daze shot w/ low damage Head Shot was a mistake.

I would really love some identity straightened out for P/P.

Unload should work like Sneak Attack in that it’s a multi-hitting bleed stacker. Keep it 8-hits, but only stacks 4 bleeds (every other hit bleeds) to keep it from getting ridiculous. The channeling time of Unload would give attentive opponents a chance to LOS/dodge/interrupt, but still give P/P a condition identity. This would necessitate a change in Sneak Attack.

It doesn’t stop heals, some heals are instant. It stops 1 shot combo on allies, revives, stomps and casts which can be a heal.
Is Head Shot worth it to use the initiative to prvent a revive? rarely, if you have an AoE option like D/D, S/D or Shortbow it is better just to AoE damage the downed player and the person who is reviving him.
Is Head Shot worth it to use the initiative to prevent a stomp? yes, you are preventing the death of your team mate and you can control the stomper for 2-3 sec if you time it right so you get a lot of value out of your initiatve.
Is Head Shot worth it to use the initiative to DELAY a cast, since the cooldown won’t be triggered? rarely, I haven’t experienced many situations in which the target has a certain health value which demanded me to interrupt his heal with a Head Shot instead of just finishing him with Unload before the heal cast time would be over.
Is Head Shot worth it to use the initiative to prevent your ally from getting 1 shotted by quickness Pistol Whip or Hunderd Blades? if they have a stunbreaker or evade ready for immob? no. If they don’t? yes.
Head Shot has its uses, but it is not good enough to compete.

rofl, this guy

I agree headshot is useless but only when using PP set up. Headshot is without a doubt the best interrupt in the game but PP is so bad that it makes headshot just a waste of initiative just like unload

If you think its a bad skill, I think you just don’t know how to manage initiative or you’re too slow to use HS / you don’t delay your lotus strike to get the HS in on an incoming skill you can predict

Currently, P/P users has only 2 skills worth to use, Unload and Black Powder. Honestly, I only use Unload in both PvE and PvP. After 2 Unloads, my target either run away or dies.

Skill #2 is literally worthless, the effect duration is just too short to waste 4 initiatives on it. I would like the duration is longer and/or gives more vulnerable stacks, at least 10+ stacks. Or, revamp it into an AoE skill, like a short whirlwind with shotting bullets instead of throwing dagger.

Skill #4 is just for interrupt casting or stomping in PvP. In PvE, it is just worthless. Most bosses immune to thief’s daze. Trash mobs are just not worth to use daze on them.

Finally, It would be nice if autoattacks have a little faster speed. It is kind of wierd that you can shot arrows with bows faster than shotting bullets with pistols.

Pistol #1 is for condition based builds. A Condition/Precision build can also make OK use of Pistol #3 with runes that bleed on crit. And in PvE I think the Power/Precision/Condition sets have a high DPS output, with bleed on crit runes of course.

But mostly, with P/P you either go condition and stick to Pistol #1 and Sneak attack Pistol #1 or Power/Crit and stick to Unload spam. Note that Unload since it attacks very often has a similar useful property as Pistol Whip : procs Signet of Malice very often.

Compared to D/D or just pistol in off hand together with another weapon, yeah I feel it is underwhelming.. But how great is the animation of the unload ability? It is sooo awesome:) GW2 is all about looking good, and P/P looks sexy!

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Those changes improve every build with pistols.

No, actually, they don’t. First, you proposed a monstrous nerf to the auto-attack. Bleeding is a much, much stronger condition than vulnerability, which would drive your damage through the floor – which is why I asked if you were just doing this to get bleeding on skill #2.

Second, you proposed making skill #2 a generic ranged damage ability that applies modest bleeding. This is a very poor design, as the skill directly competes with Unload without the advantage of interesting situational usage. Essentially, depending on your offensive stat layout, either ‘Bleeding Body Shot’ or Unload is going to be better for damage; and you will use the one that is better to the exclusion of the other.

That’s actually a step backwards in design – the current Body Shot, while horrendously weak, at least would have a somewhat different use case than Unload if it were at an appropriate power level.

Sure, you can make any design work with a high enough power level, but that’s not a reason to move backwards in design just because you can make the numbers bigger at the same time and call it even.

Shintai.5618:

The autoattack 1 does less damage than other/most other classes ranged auto attack.

Patently false. For comparison:

Vital Shot (Thief, Pistol): 134 damage, 4s bleeding, 900 range.
Crossfire (Ranger, Short Bow): 134 damage, 3s bleeding (conditional), 1200 range
Explosive Shot (Engineer, Pistol): 118 damage, 2s bleeding, 120 radius, 900 range

The Pistol’s main attack does more damage than comparable skills from other medium armor classes, both in base damage and from a longer bleed; the Ranger’s version is longer range, but inconsistent bleed; the Engineer’s version deals substantially less damage in exchange for a small AoE.

There’s basically nothing to say that the Pistol’s main attack is a weak skill for what it does.

Shintai.5618:

Also I dont understand why a thief applies so little bleeding as they do…If P/P perhaps got a bleed with unload.

Thieves do not have cooldowns like other classes. A single skill with bleeding on it can be enough for a full condition build for a Thief, while other classes will need several skills to accomplish the same thing due to cooldowns. Pistol isn’t there at the moment, but it would not take much.

P/P effectively did have bleeding on Unload through most of beta, as the Sigil of Earth used to do what it says it does and would apply bleeding on crit. No, that sigil has a 2s cooldown, which makes it unsuitable for use with rapid attacks like Unload. The set hasn’t really recovered from that loss.

P/P is fine if you know how to use them but they are NOT shined as the other sets, lets say S/P.

Oh when did they put the fifth skill into this set? Last time I know there are only 4 skills in this set which are Vital Shot, Unload, Headshot and Black Powder.

Before claming something is false, one would atleast expect you to do some basic testing.

Crossfire shoots alot faster than pistol, its hits 10 times when the pistol hits 6 times. Plus its 1200 range. And the bleed fron the side? If you are just 15-20 degrees off, bleed is still applied.

And explosive shot is AoE, so it doesnt even fit in here.

Warriour bleeding shot is 155 damage and 6 seconds bleed for 255 and shoots just a tad slower than pistol with a 9 to 10 ratio.

More research please.

Just as Shintai said, but I honestly would love to see they improve the atk speed on Vital Shot rather than making a change to it or increases the normal damage to stay in line of power with Trick Shot.

It needs to be re-thought – most of all it needs some sort of area-effect attack.

It does less damage than the shortbow per shot, and every one of its abilities only effect one target at a time. It’s simply never a good idea to use them right now.

P/P really does need a buff, compared to the damage output from other specs, and the amount of utility/control of those specs P/P is seriously weak.
They can fix this by either:

-lowering the initiative cost of unload by 1 or 2
-increasing unloads damage
-Removing the bleed on vital shot, and giving it more damage
-Or like someone else mentioned, make vital shot stack vulnerability and make body shot add instant stacks of bleed.

I really hope to see some P/P buffs in the upcoming patch notes. I check every time and every time i’m disappointed.

Other ideas:

1. vital shot
   - make it a skill chain: 1st shot bleeds 5s, 2nd shot poisons, 3rd shot has decent (I said decent, not pathetic!) damage. That way you can stack 2 conditions on an enemy and traited 15pts in deadly arts you can weaken the opponent. The idea behind this is the thief loading it’s weapon with different ammo.
   - another idea: add a cripple/chill component (I mean: “vital shot” – that has to mean something other than a silly bleed, right?)

1. body shot
   - Shorten range to 600. Raise vulnerability duration to like 10s and add a CC component like 2s chill or a good knockback/knockdown. I mean – we are talking about a body shot, look at the symbol… the enemy is quite close, you aim at the chest and give a solid blow. Something SHOULD happen, right?

1. unload
   - Lower cost by 1 initiative, raise number of shots from 8 to 10 and increase firing speed a tad to compensate (10 shots in the timeframe of 8 ). Last two shots have 50% chance to cause burning for 2s each. (overheating effect of your pistols)

1. head shot
   - make it a 1s-1.5s channeling skill. A well aimed, 1200 range sniper attack towards the head. If it hits: 1s daze plus blindness (immediate effect of the headshot) plus 3s weaken afterwards. Add appropriate damage component for a headshot.

1. black powder
   lower initiative cost by 1. Raise combo field radius and duration by 25%..50%

Nande.6810:

P/P is fine as it is. Works just fine as utility weapon with decent bleeds. It’s not supposed to be a ranged pistol whip :P

Yeah, I’ve been using it as ranged utility.

For me Unload is good for 1.2k to 6.6k healing depending on initiative and venoms.
Body shot to help allies on event bosses, when my health is low and the boss is hitting way to hard.
Black powder for dagger storm when I don’t have another combo field to use or when I get too much attention from a dagger storm and need the avoidance.

I feel that P/P is weak, but by design, because with skill 4 and 5 it has powerful control options. I used to go P/P and spam skill 3, but the power in it is actually in utilizing skill 5 for a pretty much indefinite blind against a single target, plus a daze/interrupt on 4. That means P/P is giving you a strong survival boost in exchange for damage potential.

I don’t use this weapon combo much anymore though, I currently run D/D and P/D.

Hard to say, I like pistol/pistol the most for thief, it’s more challenging but can get the job done especially if you can utilize stealth+#1+#3 attack properly.