Guild Wars 2

Basically, at least to me, damage dealing has been about risk vs reward. Melee tends to have higher damage because you get in the face of the opponent. It’s easier for them to counter and punish you, traps tend to be threatening in melee, etc etc.

So why should ranged combat keep up with melee? I admit it’s lacking, but with the thief I can play melee keep away so easily that even if I had half my damage I’d still met a kill or two through sheer attrition.

Main competition for ranged damage is the ranger and now DH. In a battle of auto attack yeah, we get wrecked, but barrage is basically rapid fire with 0 cool down, I’ve never had a class outside of necro and warrior survive two consecutive barrages without some sort of defense, and thats usually due to passives.

I guess what I’m asking is why does range need a buff when it performs comparatively well with a bit of tricky use, which is if I recall what the thief is about. And why are thieves trying to dip into the side of the pool where there is a class literally made for it?

You mentioned character archetypes in another thread, and that’s pretty much my answer for me personally. I like the dual pistol archetype (the Thief option here being closer to that archetype than the faffy Engineer option… dare I say ‘purity of pistol’…), and the rapier/pistol duelist archetype, to a lesser extent.

I don’t like the bow or rifle archetypes, so I keep struggling on with our dire P/P while my Rangers etc have never even left their starter areas. Pistols (and shortbows) are offered as an option for Thieves, so it’s Anet’s job to make those options right, and those who happened to take that option have every right to expect those weapons to work properly and be fun, varied and viable.

Some folks are more into how a set looks and feels (the archetypal vibe), than in taking an awesome and optimal set that they don’t like the vibe of. This might be the RP thing, or just that some sets match their preferred playstyle better, or both ideally.

as it stands right now, though. The thief sort of “jack of all trades” it’s ranged combat, buffing it would put it in danger of overtaking other classes that are primarily focused around ranged combat.

A thief can cover up to 3,100 range, (sensibly, shadow step, agility signet, steal for the point blank) and retreat 1,200 in an instant. The field of movement gives it an advantage no class has. Technically speaking I can cloak, venom, ambush a ranger with a stealth attack, drop barrage and step away and cloak again with almost 0 retaliation.

And that’s p/p, with not even full zerk that’s about 10k damage overall, rapid fire can’t do that, and it’s on the ranger class.

Sorry, I’m struggling to get what you mean here… when you say ‘Barrage’ do you mean ‘Unload’?

Yeah sorry, insomnia, haven’t slept in 24 hrs.

Well, here’s my 2 copper on the ranged vs melee debate:

Yes, ranged should have a drawback to offset the advantage of a greater tactical area. However, I don’t think that this should just be done by lowering its damage.

The reason is that ranged weapons instantly become completely useless in PvE compared to melee when they are made lower damage. I mean, sure, you can run around with P/P in PvE because you like playing cowboy, but in any meaningful content, you’re essentially making the group slower and forcing more time against boss mechanics when you pick something like this over D/D or staff.

There’s other ways you can balance ranged dps, but ANet has decided to take this as it’s philosophy, which is fine for PvP, but for PvE is pretty much a guaranteed handicap.

Oh, and regardless, pistol and short bow should still get a dps boost on AA just because they were already far behind staff/dagger/sword AA dps and are now just even farther behind.

Strictly speaking for pve then, most rangers I know say the same thing, rapid fire then switch to gs, putting the ranger in the same situation as the thief, so strictly speaking for pve the system is not thief range is weak so much as all ranged attack systems are weak.

Not debating your point just clarifying it further

Aidal.4901:

Strictly speaking for pve then, most rangers I know say the same thing, rapid fire then switch to gs, putting the ranger in the same situation as the thief, so strictly speaking for pve the system is not thief range is weak so much as all ranged attack systems are weak.

Not debating your point just clarifying it further

^ Yea, even rangers, who are often shown to be the main bow-wielding class, are handicapped if they use ranged weapons for anything more than an opener to a fight.

I think eles and necros are the only classes that do decent ranged dps (since Burnzerk was nerfed). Engis can count for that to some degree, but they’re a bit more of a mid range dps since they need to be very close for many of their good attacks.

I think it’s because grenades overlay more often in close combat then they do at distance for engie. Ele is the only class with a decent ranged attack (staff fire is one of if not the highest dps) and base necro gets most of its damage from traits/wells.

Aidal.4901:

Yeah sorry, insomnia, haven’t slept in 24 hrs.

Cool, that makes sense then. Yeah, I’d say that Unload is spot on and certainly doesn’t need any further buff – or nerf! It’s the only thing that makes P/P archetypally feel and function right IMO.

But then we have a too-weak AA, not sure anybody likes #2 as it is atm, and #4 and #5 are only useful in some content but not at all useful (and compete for Ini with Unload) in other content.

Makes the set boring to use after a while… and it’s been a while… and it looks like it’ll continue to be a while…. Beyond that, there are plenty of threads already out there about how to fix Thief pistol; I was just attempting to answer your overall question about why folks might prefer P/P than bows or rifles, or the Eng faffy pistol options.

Have a nice kip when you get round to it.

Yeah the aa is weak, but as me and Dahkeus highlighted, that’s the system not just the thief, nearly all ranged attack aa’s are less than stellar. Thief makes up for that department through its rotations and skills, just like every other class.

If you want your ranged buff then you have to be fair to the other classes to. Ranger longbow is probably the worst ranged aa I’ve seen in the game. PvE wise it has no redeeming quality and pvp unless you’re floating about 900-1000 range it’s stupidly easy to avoid. And any closer you may as well use the great sword

I stopped using longbow on my ranger in favor of axe/horn with gs. Better dps and in pve I can almost instantly build up to 25 might through strength of the pack/heal as one

I guess what I’m getting at is the ranged system as a whole needs an overhaul before it makes sense to boost thieves range. Either that or thief has to lose some manuvering, it wouldn’t be fair to give rapid escapes and high damage

I feel it’s important to add that I’m not attacking or belittling anyone, but it just feels like a lot of players are ignoring the bigger picture of things.

Sure, please take it as read that I want everybody to be properly balanced and have fun, regardless of class, weapon set or game mode. Just happens that Thief P/P, for all its faults, is the only set in the game [and most MMOs, as it happens] that really floats my boat.

Some of this highlights the horrible meta ANet has created. For some reason AoE is king in this game. It requires the lowest skill and should not have the highest return. Even worse is that some of the biggest AoE damage is done at long range. AoE should be highly limited, on long cool downs and mostly short to medium range.

Then we get to melee which has to contend with ever increasing sustain (probably created to offset the AoE pervasiveness). Few melee attacks have greater damage than either ranged or AoE despite being the most difficult to apply. This has created the care bear opinion about GW2 that many hardcore players have.

Then we get to ranged damage. Typically ranged damage should have two qualifiers. The first being that there should be additional skill required to hit a target. Since the game has auto-targeting (a design mistake IMO), not much can be done here aside from creating something like the reflect capability. The second is range damage should scale based on proximity to the target. Rapid Fire is actually a good example of how this can work. Using say a long bow in close proximity should have a staggering drop in DPS. Problem is few ranged skills have this limitation and those that do are not toned down enough.

Had ANet stuck to the tenets developed by numerous games before them, GW2 would have more interesting fights in both PvP, WvW and PvE. As it is, there is only one class that personifies some sort of balance between melee, ranged and limited AoE. This is why IMO the Thief is the “best” class in the game hands down.

It’s not about keeping up with melee, it’s about it actually being useful/possible. Although our Ranged weapons are designed to be in Melee range to be effective anyways so with that logic maybe they should be on par. But that’s just it~ why? Why are SB and Pistol/Dagger close ranged ranged weapons? P/P is the only thing pure range and the AA is awful and forces #3 spam. It also has no AoE (anymore) and limited to 900 distance (again) because they deleted all it’s traits and made nothing baseline.

Doggie.3184:

It’s not about keeping up with melee, it’s about it actually being useful/possible. Although our Ranged weapons are designed to be in Melee range to be effective anyways so with that logic maybe they should be on par. But that’s just it~ why? Why are SB and Pistol/Dagger close ranged ranged weapons? P/P is the only thing pure range and the AA is awful and forces #3 spam. It also has no AoE (anymore) and limited to 900 distance (again) because they deleted all it’s traits and made nothing baseline.

I run pistol/dagger. The set is close/ mid range fighting( this is on top of it being single target, no AOE); so I completely agree with you. While I’m maneuvering and trying to get a stealth/ burst #1 combo I’m doing easily healed or mitigated damage with #1 then out to less than mid range with #3.

All the while most enemy’s your facing will have passives/ immunities that will just ignore what your doing; unless your running a condi build. I don’t see asking for a rework or buff for #1 pistol as being “Bad”.

Doggie.3184:

It’s not about keeping up with melee, it’s about it actually being useful/possible. Although our Ranged weapons are designed to be in Melee range to be effective anyways so with that logic maybe they should be on par. But that’s just it~ why? Why are SB and Pistol/Dagger close ranged ranged weapons? P/P is the only thing pure range and the AA is awful and forces #3 spam. It also has no AoE (anymore) and limited to 900 distance (again) because they deleted all it’s traits and made nothing baseline.

Yeah, but all ranged AA’s are awful when you look at the other options. Again I feel like your opinion here is facing a single target, and then just standing there pressing 1. That’s just not an effective way to face anything.

If you shake things up with the cloak though, sneak attack has damage comparable to rapid fire and more on demand than it (revealed for like 3s? vs ranger 8s cool down if traited, you have access to 2-3 cloaks on demand, overtaking Rapid fire within the timeframe)

And as covered for PvE, most rangers worth their salt for damage fire one rapid fire, then switch to GS for superior AA damage.

As far as why they’re such close ranged weapons is likely due to balance the coverage I pointed out earlier. A thief can close 3,100 units of range in three keystrokes without actually moving, and then retreat 1,200 units to prevent retaliation. If you give a thief higher range than what it has currently, all you’re doing is increasing its coverage without giving it a draw back. And if I can deliver two, (four-five if you use your cloaks for sneak attack) salvos of a rapid fire-esque attack, then literally dodge backward once to avoid all retaliation, or even just use shadow step completely out of range, I have the advantage of both burst output and placement, you’d literally be the supreme ranged attacker.

And burst damage wise I think the thief is right now, the supreme attacker even in range.

As far as why they’re such close ranged weapons is likely due to balance the coverage I pointed out earlier. A thief can close 3,100 units of range in three keystrokes without actually moving, and then retreat 1,200 units to prevent retaliation. If you give a thief higher range than what it has currently, all you’re doing is increasing its coverage without giving it a draw back. And if I can deliver two, (four-five if you use your cloaks for sneak attack) salvos of a rapid fire-esque attack, then literally dodge backward once to avoid all retaliation, or even just use shadow step completely out of range, I have the advantage of both burst output and placement, you’d literally be the supreme ranged attacker.

And burst damage wise I think the thief is right now, the supreme attacker even in range.[/quote]I still consider myself in the L2P phase of the game as I’ve only been active in this game for 3 months( I bought the game at launch back in the day); but I see room for improvement.

I don’t see any asking for more range. I just see people asking for relevant damage when the are stuck in a melee ranged encounter. such as with my P/D thief and those instances when P/P cannot run away. there has to be some counterplay with the pistol sets other than being an insta- down when melee is on you; or your mid-range facing a range opponent with weak damage.

You predicate this on having things like shadowstep always available and it’s just not the case.

Fair enough, but name an escape the ranger has for that situation. Point blank shot will likely trip an auto-break passive, hunters shot is just a poor mans cloak that the thief readily has access too.

Lightning reflexes? Thief has Roll for initiative and Withdraw, entangle? The Ranger forums are already saying Entangle is too easy to counter in this meta.

I’m not saying the ranger does not have options, mind you. But it has a more limited window, with even less effective uses. A PP thief can pulse blind to mitigate some damage, has access to up to three escapes(withdraw, RFI, Shadow step). Plus steadfast refusal to weapon swap when in melee range would get any class killed

AsurasRCute.4136:

You mentioned character archetypes in another thread, and that’s pretty much my answer for me personally. I like the dual pistol archetype (the Thief option here being closer to that archetype than the faffy Engineer option… dare I say ‘purity of pistol’…), and the rapier/pistol duelist archetype, to a lesser extent.

I don’t like the bow or rifle archetypes, so I keep struggling on with our dire P/P while my Rangers etc have never even left their starter areas. Pistols (and shortbows) are offered as an option for Thieves, so it’s Anet’s job to make those options right, and those who happened to take that option have every right to expect those weapons to work properly and be fun, varied and viable.

Some folks are more into how a set looks and feels (the archetypal vibe), than in taking an awesome and optimal set that they don’t like the vibe of. This might be the RP thing, or just that some sets match their preferred playstyle better, or both ideally.

Pistol/pistol is quite strong in groups with proper support but you need to be aware of reflect aurashares and skills that destroy projectiles.

Suppose I should mention that all of my comments are from a PvE PoV – and I really wish we had separate mode balancing.

I like the 900 range most of the time, but would like a cheap Ini skill (most likely #2 or #4) with 1200 range, only because some bosses have always-on death fields with range >900.

Claw of Jormag for instance: all the (1200 range) Charrzookas tend to get grabbed before I can get one, so all I can do with my ‘ranged set’ is run just into pistol range, hose off a couple of Unloads and GTFO before I drop dead, heal (contributing no DPS for the duration) and repeat.

Maybe I just suck, and I’m doing it wrong, but it’s a pretty dire feeling considering I’ve gone all-in on a ‘ranged set’. Every other class can switch to a range 1200 weapon, however feeble it might be, in that situation. None of our vaunted Thief mobility or Stealth tricks will help me there.

I’m also down with ranged AAs being less powerful than melee ones, but Vital Shot is ridiculously feeble… its only real use for me is as a vehicle for Sigil of Air/Fire procs, which do most of the damage.

As in the other MMOs I play, the damage gap between basic attack and powerful finisher needs to close a lot more (and not by nerfing Unload!).

In the lower level maps, I can drop two to three targets with a single Unload, if they’re in a line and I aim for the furthest one. Each of those targets takes 3-6 AA shots (if SoA/F don’t proc) to drop – that’s just a ludicrous damage gap. And that’s with a glassy max-damage, full-Ascended (except earrings atm) build.

In the likes of SW, I can fire off the AA forever, and not really notice much of anything happening (if the Sigils are on CD) – it’s almost not even worth firing it. And there are other PvE examples where we need more AA punch and our vaunted Thief tricks don’t work: A fair few of the LS2 battles are great examples of this, for instance.

Confined space, or you fall to your death if you do anything too energetic (Withdraw/RFI*) and go off the edge; AoE everywhere; slight raised areas or/and wreckage that mess with your pathing; a few HP-sack enemies that eat your Ini, and your Dagger Storm and are still up and smacking you hard wherever you try to flee to.

Again, maybe I just suck, but these are the kinds of things I’m thinking of whenever I comment about P/P.

*I’ve read that you can cancel the back flip, but still get the goodies, if you jump when casting these, but that’s never worked for me….

That’s a fair point, I’ll admit thief lacks ranged options for PvE, but doing so would break WvW/PvP

When I roll P/D thief I can play keep away forever against melee targets, but that’s in wvw, it’s why I even brought this topic up. My range capability for my main playing feels heavily sufficient, things I try to kill have a hard time killing me, and cloak lets me get easy stomps.

The other thing to keep in mind though is that the thief really isn’t a thief, it has one skill “steal” for theft, and thief themed traits. But it’s really just an assassin class, and assassin classes tend to shine in PvP over PvE, the exception being against a single target with a small group, then the caster and the assassin are usually your big DPS.

PvE wise I’m not much effected by it, during Jormag I hunt the champs and then contribute DPS on the push.

It’s more or less just that some things need a 1200 range attack to land, such as Jormag, and especially so in offensive and defensive measures in WvW, etc. It’s not so much that the thief needs a powerful 1200 ranged option so much as a 1200 ranged option in general. Frankly, the a weapon with 1200 range on the thief shouldn’t be able to deal substantial damage and should instead focus on control and disablement as to avoid extended stealth-> kill shot effects which isn’t fun to play against. I agree there needs to be a risk associated with dealing lots of damage. That said the utility on 1200 range sometimes just can’t be overcome in other ways.

Aidal.4901:

as it stands right now, though. The thief sort of “jack of all trades” it’s ranged combat, buffing it would put it in danger of overtaking other classes that are primarily focused around ranged combat.

A thief can cover up to 3,100 range, (sensibly, shadow step, agility signet, steal for the point blank) and retreat 1,200 in an instant. The field of movement gives it an advantage no class has. Technically speaking I can cloak, venom, ambush a ranger with a stealth attack, drop barrage and step away and cloak again with almost 0 retaliation.

And that’s p/p, with not even full zerk that’s about 10k damage overall, rapid fire can’t do that, and it’s on the ranger class.

Obviously you have never played a pew pew ranger. If I only do 10K damage on my rapid fire it means i got really kittenty rolls. Pretty sure I do 20 k routinely. I routinely kill thieves with a single rapid fire from full. Especially have I have used sic’em.

Yeah yeah…I can dodge your rapid fire. Which is why I use it after 2 dodges…now what are you going to do? Die? I thought so.

Aidal.4901:

Fair enough, but name an escape the ranger has for that situation. Point blank shot will likely trip an auto-break passive, hunters shot is just a poor mans cloak that the thief readily has access too.

Lightning reflexes? Thief has Roll for initiative and Withdraw, entangle? The Ranger forums are already saying Entangle is too easy to counter in this meta.

I’m not saying the ranger does not have options, mind you. But it has a more limited window, with even less effective uses. A PP thief can pulse blind to mitigate some damage, has access to up to three escapes(withdraw, RFI, Shadow step). Plus steadfast refusal to weapon swap when in melee range would get any class killed

The best option for a pewp pew ranger as far as survival is the greatsword and his pets.

Shoot to go invis. Switch to sword and zoom off. If they pursue then use block and/or stun. Swap pets for the speed boost. Use the plant wolf who heals with F2. Use sic’em for another speed buff. By then you can swap weapons and fire off another shot to hide yourself and then when hidden use your elite rooting skill. Survival for rangers is running away.

I have escaped zergs like this. You can even spec to use the greatsword speed skill twice in a row!

Aidal.4901:

That’s a fair point, I’ll admit thief lacks ranged options for PvE, but doing so would break WvW/PvP

When I roll P/D thief I can play keep away forever against melee targets, but that’s in wvw, it’s why I even brought this topic up. My range capability for my main playing feels heavily sufficient, things I try to kill have a hard time killing me, and cloak lets me get easy stomps.

The other thing to keep in mind though is that the thief really isn’t a thief, it has one skill “steal” for theft, and thief themed traits. But it’s really just an assassin class, and assassin classes tend to shine in PvP over PvE, the exception being against a single target with a small group, then the caster and the assassin are usually your big DPS.

PvE wise I’m not much effected by it, during Jormag I hunt the champs and then contribute DPS on the push.

Yeah…like warriors don’t have a ranged weapon that hits hard as hell and has good range! Oh wait a minute!?! What? Why shouldn’t a thief have the option? Oh yeah…we hate thieves…almost forgot. they need to have few options and only a couple viable builds. Sorry forgot.

While ranged burst right now is a bit overtuned, there’s a huge difference from doing it from stealth.

I’d also love to see said 20k RF damage build. 14k is where I cap out unless I’m sitting on 25 might from other people with capped vuln and stacked modifiers from utilities, in which case if we’re talking being supported by other people, my backstab hits over 35k.