Guild Wars 2

Knyx.5926:

@Redscope They arent showing much intelligence in regards to well-placed and data intensive based balance changes.

Do you have their data and decision-making process on-hand or are you just mad at the:

Knyx.5926:

See heartseeker nerf

Knyx.5926:

See Pistol whip nerf

I’m not claiming that they’re making all 100% correct decisions, but they’re obviously trying their best since they’ve been claiming this game is skill-based enough to play competitively.

Oh, and I still see a healthy number of thieves around. If you’ve read the forums without playing the game, you’d think they were broken, underpowerd, and extinct. In almost all games that have forums like this, that kind of return usually comes from bad players and ones that know they’re playing an OP class.

Vrak.2193:

I believe the Thief should be a high damage, low survivability class that is slippery and hard to pin down; very mobile.

This should be a viable way to play a thief, but GW2 professions should not be so strictly classified. There’s no one way to play each profession.

kharza.3974:

My bad.. Your are a TROLL AND NEED TO L2P.. Thieves need to be nerfed into oblivion because you are a NOOB lover.

Anyway.. At least on my ranger thieves didn’t scare me at all because I have 2 ways to get invuln (Signet of Stone and Protect Me). Switching to a sword in melee almost everytime and go ninja on the thieves.. plus it gives you an additional 2 evades. I was playing a more power/tanky build over the viable trap build. Seriously I didn’t even notice the backstab thief burst issue until I switched over to a thief and got jumped by one.

Anyway.. At least on my ranger thieves didn’t scare me at all because I have 2 ways to get invuln (Signet of Stone and Protect Me). Switching to a sword in melee almost everytime and go ninja on the thieves.. plus it gives you an additional 2 evades. I was playing a more power/tanky build over the viable trap build. Seriously I didn’t even notice the backstab thief burst issue until I switched over to a thief and got jumped by one.

lol

Backstab thief builds don’t auto-win against the high toughness tank-ish builds of almost any class. The problem is, you shouldn’t HAVE to build a rock solid tank in order to even get a chance to play against a thief.

Now many thieves would argue against that, but I’m sure those that do have never played (unless quite briefly) another class. In fact, there are a lot of people who come directly from other games with thief-like, backstab, stealth classes and believe that it needs to directly translate.

It doesn’t.

Knyx.5926:

@Redscope They arent showing much intelligence in regards to well-placed and data intensive based balance changes.

need an example? See heartseeker nerf

need the best example?
See Pistol whip nerf ….. and yet to fix the “bugged” self root on a mobility based class

The PW nerf failed to alter what actually made the combo potent in favor of simply weakening the base ability and was poorly done.

The Heartseeker nerf was entirely justified, and it now stands as a useful and highly mobile finisher ability, as it should be, while being impotent as a non-finisher attack.

Redscope.6215:

Knyx.5926:

@Redscope They arent showing much intelligence in regards to well-placed and data intensive based balance changes.

Do you have their data and decision-making process on-hand or are you just mad at the:

Knyx.5926:

See heartseeker nerf

Knyx.5926:

See Pistol whip nerf

I’m not claiming that they’re making all 100% correct decisions, but they’re obviously trying their best since they’ve been claiming this game is skill-based enough to play competitively.

Oh, and I still see a healthy number of thieves around. If you’ve read the forums without playing the game, you’d think they were broken, underpowerd, and extinct. In almost all games that have forums like this, that kind of return usually comes from bad players and ones that know they’re playing an OP class.

Well, ofcourse you see a lot of thiefs… you know what ? When i came to Gw2 i left other game and some 10-15 ppl left game too, guess what. 7 of us ware going to roll thiefs w/o knowing how this class is played 7! 7/15 is half kittenit, 4 rolled mesmers 4 others something else.
Dont you understand Anet showd thief as awsome class so many many ppl rolled it.

Tulisin.6945:

Vrak.2193:

I believe the Thief should be a high damage, low survivability class that is slippery and hard to pin down; very mobile.

This should be a viable way to play a thief, but GW2 professions should not be so strictly classified. There’s no one way to play each profession.

The problem is, if you’re slippery, hard to pin down, and very mobile, you’re also highly survivable.

A lot of people here don’t understand that (Edit: And I don’t mean “here” as in this forum, I mean game-wide). This game’s survivability is partly build and partly class. Mobility is a huge defensive advantage.

Redscope.6215:

kharza.3974:

My bad.. Your are a TROLL AND NEED TO L2P.. Thieves need to be nerfed into oblivion because you are a NOOB lover.

Anyway.. At least on my ranger thieves didn’t scare me at all because I have 2 ways to get invuln (Signet of Stone and Protect Me). Switching to a sword in melee almost everytime and go ninja on the thieves.. plus it gives you an additional 2 evades. I was playing a more power/tanky build over the viable trap build. Seriously I didn’t even notice the backstab thief burst issue until I switched over to a thief and got jumped by one.

Anyway.. At least on my ranger thieves didn’t scare me at all because I have 2 ways to get invuln (Signet of Stone and Protect Me). Switching to a sword in melee almost everytime and go ninja on the thieves.. plus it gives you an additional 2 evades. I was playing a more power/tanky build over the viable trap build. Seriously I didn’t even notice the backstab thief burst issue until I switched over to a thief and got jumped by one.

lol

Backstab thief builds don’t auto-win against the high toughness tank-ish builds of almost any class. The problem is, you shouldn’t HAVE to build a rock solid tank in order to even get a chance to play against a thief.

Now many thieves would argue against that, but I’m sure those that do have never played (unless quite briefly) another class. In fact, there are a lot of people who come directly from other games with thief-like, backstab, stealth classes and believe that it needs to directly translate.

It doesn’t.

I hear what you are saying but really I was building more tankish because it didn’t take me long to realize that glass cannons don’t survive long in WvW (which is my primary focus on both ranger and thief now). It isn’t like I was building my ranger out to survive a thief, I was doing it to survive burst from any class (and at least on my ranger the mesmer scared me more than thief).

Thieves need a small tuning.. which I think they are slowly working towards, but these massive cries about nerfing stealth, backstab, etc. are getting pretty old and the majority of them come down to learning to play and getting better at the core game mechanics and class mechanics (ALL CLASS MECHANICS).

Stin.9781:

Redscope.6215:

Knyx.5926:

@Redscope They arent showing much intelligence in regards to well-placed and data intensive based balance changes.

Do you have their data and decision-making process on-hand or are you just mad at the:

Knyx.5926:

See heartseeker nerf

Knyx.5926:

See Pistol whip nerf

I’m not claiming that they’re making all 100% correct decisions, but they’re obviously trying their best since they’ve been claiming this game is skill-based enough to play competitively.

Oh, and I still see a healthy number of thieves around. If you’ve read the forums without playing the game, you’d think they were broken, underpowerd, and extinct. In almost all games that have forums like this, that kind of return usually comes from bad players and ones that know they’re playing an OP class.

Well, ofcourse you see a lot of thiefs… you know what ? When i came to Gw2 i left other game and some 10-15 ppl left game too, guess what. 7 of us ware going to roll thiefs w/o knowing how this class is played 7! 7/15 is half kittenit, 4 rolled mesmers 4 others something else.
Dont you understand Anet showd thief as awsome class so many many ppl rolled it.

I know I shouldn’t feed the trolls…but its just too much fun sometimes.

See my above quoted post about what these forums make the thief population out to be; proven by the direct quote underneath.

PROTIP: If you don’t like being backstabbed, move around more. Most of the people I kill are just standing there … and they know I’m around. Positioning for backstab is pretty critical. Just being mobile makes it much more difficult to use.

kharza.3974:

… the majority of them come down to learning to play and getting better at the core game mechanics and class mechanics (ALL CLASS MECHANICS).

Very important point here! Being a good player doesn’t only mean understanding one class and playing it well. It means understanding all classes, your currently played class, and using the best tactics of your current build to turn things to your advantage. And the only time you shouldn’t want to tailor your loadout is if you don’t mind losing sometimes to a counter-build.

Redscope.6215:

Tulisin.6945:

Vrak.2193:

I believe the Thief should be a high damage, low survivability class that is slippery and hard to pin down; very mobile.

This should be a viable way to play a thief, but GW2 professions should not be so strictly classified. There’s no one way to play each profession.

The problem is, if you’re slippery, hard to pin down, and very mobile, you’re also highly survivable.

A lot of people here don’t understand that. This game’s survivability is partly build and partly class. Mobility is a huge defensive advantage.

So the question is this: Is mobility more easily available to thieves than other professions, even thieves that don’t actively build towards mobility -or- is higher average thief mobility a result of the thief playerbase valuing mobility more than other professions?

I would argue that thief mobility abilities are too easily available even to thieves that don’t really put any traits/utility slots toward it. A shortbow swap combined with the fact that thieves don’t benefit as highly from using two weapons in combat as most professions means it is a negligible tradeoff for any thief to bring high mobility to the field.

Now, some might argue that this innate mobility could be balanced out by the thief’s low HP coefficient. Warriors, after all, as glassy as they spec, still benefit from a high HP pool, it isn’t a choice just like thieves always have mobility regardless of spec. However, innate mobility as a defensive attribute offers skill-based survivability while the warrior (for instance) has a stat-based innate defensive attribute.

In short, as the skill of the players involved goes up, the innate benefits of some professions get weaker in comparison to other professions. Your point about “survivability is partly class” therefore appears to be true, but it is easy to see why people perceive an imbalance with this when you distill it down to “X profession’s innate powers get better with more skill, Y profession’s powers do not”

Tulisin.6945:

So the question is this: Is mobility more easily available to thieves than other professions, even thieves that don’t actively build towards mobility -or- is higher average thief mobility a result of the thief playerbase valuing mobility more than other professions?

I would argue that thief mobility abilities are too easily available even to thieves that don’t really put any traits/utility slots toward it. A shortbow swap combined with the fact that thieves don’t benefit as highly from using two weapons in combat as most professions means it is a negligible tradeoff for any thief to bring high mobility to the field.

Not disagreeing with you here. And I understand that the shortbow is just one point among others, but its worth it to point out that the readily available mobility isn’t just in the shortbow. All shadowsteps are teleports, they’re not effected by any type of slowing cc, and all weapon skills can be used multiple times in a row. Many thief builds also have evades on top of attacks that reposition them while attacking. Not to mention most of their innate applied conditions are ones that slow or weaken targets.

Now just take all that mobility, and add stealth on top of it.

Tulisin.6945:

Now, some might argue that this innate mobility could be balanced out by the thief’s low HP coefficient. Warriors, after all, as glassy as they spec, still benefit from a high HP pool, it isn’t a choice just like thieves always have mobility regardless of spec. However, innate mobility as a defensive attribute offers skill-based survivability while the warrior (for instance) has a stat-based innate defensive attribute.

The problem here is that once your HP pool runs out, you’re dead. You don’t ever run out of mobility…if you’re alive, its around.

You can’t argue HP as an innate defense when compared to taking no damage. That’s like saying, “We both do the same damage but you have more life and I have range.”

It sounds good on paper, but unless you let your range advantage dwindle to nothing in the amount of time it takes you to even the HP amount, you’ve got the upper hand based solely on your class.

Tulisin.6945:

In short, as the skill of the players involved goes up, the innate benefits of some professions get weaker in comparison to other professions. Your point about “survivability is partly class” therefore appears to be true, but it is easy to see why people perceive an imbalance with this when you distill it down to “X profession’s innate powers get better with more skill, Y profession’s powers do not”

So basically what you’ve just said is that either the warrior is underpowered in the hands of a skilled player, or the thief is overpowered in the hands of a skilled player. Either way, I don’t think that many thieves would agree with that.

Not that I’m trying to appeal to many thieves mind you.

All I’ve said is that mobility = defense. You can’t have a highly mobile class that has low survivability. Its like an oxymoron.

Shomaruki.7395:

Backstab already does additional damage base on how much life someone is missing. So why not just make it where it can’t crit a target.

I just thought about that. So far I haven’t seen a single person actually think that part though. Thief can KEEP everything about it just make it to where Backstab

A skill designed to already do additional damage base on missing life on a target, Not be able to critical.

Are you serious? Where did you see/read that Backstab inflicts a variable amount of damage based on the HPs of the target?

It’s simply not true, learn the rules of the game before posting please.

Shomaruki.7395:

Backstab already does additional damage base on how much life someone is missing. So why not just make it where it can’t crit a target.

I just thought about that. So far I haven’t seen a single person actually think that part though. Thief can KEEP everything about it just make it to where Backstab

A skill designed to already do additional damage base on missing life on a target, Not be able to critical.

Umm… wow.. just wow..

I would first go here and read up on how the Thief skills actually work..

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_skills

Tulisin.6945:

Redscope.6215:

Tulisin.6945:

Vrak.2193:

I believe the Thief should be a high damage, low survivability class that is slippery and hard to pin down; very mobile.

This should be a viable way to play a thief, but GW2 professions should not be so strictly classified. There’s no one way to play each profession.

The problem is, if you’re slippery, hard to pin down, and very mobile, you’re also highly survivable.

A lot of people here don’t understand that. This game’s survivability is partly build and partly class. Mobility is a huge defensive advantage.

So the question is this: Is mobility more easily available to thieves than other professions, even thieves that don’t actively build towards mobility -or- is higher average thief mobility a result of the thief playerbase valuing mobility more than other professions?

I would argue that thief mobility abilities are too easily available even to thieves that don’t really put any traits/utility slots toward it. A shortbow swap combined with the fact that thieves don’t benefit as highly from using two weapons in combat as most professions means it is a negligible tradeoff for any thief to bring high mobility to the field.

Now, some might argue that this innate mobility could be balanced out by the thief’s low HP coefficient. Warriors, after all, as glassy as they spec, still benefit from a high HP pool, it isn’t a choice just like thieves always have mobility regardless of spec. However, innate mobility as a defensive attribute offers skill-based survivability while the warrior (for instance) has a stat-based innate defensive attribute.

In short, as the skill of the players involved goes up, the innate benefits of some professions get weaker in comparison to other professions. Your point about “survivability is partly class” therefore appears to be true, but it is easy to see why people perceive an imbalance with this when you distill it down to “X profession’s innate powers get better with more skill, Y profession’s powers do not”

lol Couldn’t disagree more

For a thief to gain decent mobility, they need to spec for it. Dodging twice? any class can do that, gotta spec for more and more often. Swiftness, most classes can easily get long duration swiftness, whilst thief has to spec heavily for it not counting runes.
Sure thief gets shadowstep but the only one that doesnt require a target is the utility based one and its a nice cooldown. Infiltrators arrow is actually 2x weaker then the movement weapon abilities other classes get because it wastes the same resource we use for our damage and control. If you don’t spec into it, your only getting 2 of these off anyway. Add to the fact many movement weapon abilities on other classes are on VERY very short cooldowns and require no target. This why a Greatsword warrior for example actually has more mobility across the battlefield without speccing for it, then a thief who doesnt spec heavily into initiative+swiftness

Elementalist, with a little specced into air atm, is the MOST mobile class in the game hands down

kharza.3974:

Shomaruki.7395:

Backstab already does additional damage base on how much life someone is missing. So why not just make it where it can’t crit a target.

I just thought about that. So far I haven’t seen a single person actually think that part though. Thief can KEEP everything about it just make it to where Backstab

A skill designed to already do additional damage base on missing life on a target, Not be able to critical.

Umm… wow.. just wow..

I would first go here and read up on how the Thief skills actually work..

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_skills

That’s the general type of person that qqs about nerfs. I find it hilarious that he wants to prevent a skill from critting too, even if it’s a non existent one.

I’m amazed that this thread is still up. There’s so much garbage being spilled all around. Nerf this, nerf that, qq I suck, make it easier for me. I mean seriously. Why is this thread still open?

I think you will find that is NOT the general type of person who posts about nerfs. There are over 20 people in this thread alone supporting the idea that BS is OP and that’s the only one who has mis-quoted the BS skill. So you basically just said that a 1/20 proportion represents the general trend.

That’s the problem with discussions like this. People use posturing and hyperbole to try and badger other users into accepting their points It would be better to let your points stand on their own without all that stuff. People would be much more likely to reach consensus.

The reason why stuff will get nerfed is because you can:

1. 150% signet the backstab.
2. Use steal while casting CND to bypass CND’s slow casting limitation and backstab’s general stealth/position limitation.

It’s an effective use of capabilities, but it’s over-the-top, particularly for WvW. Dealing >33k damage almost instantly at 900+ range is a bit problematic.

Against someone with heavy armor + toughness, that will still combo for 15k damage, which is a huge health deficit when the Thief still has ~8 Initiative and has only burnt 1 utility and steal.

scoobymode.1942:

I hate seeing them nerf the Thief with every patch also… I mean seriously, a Thief is supposed to be able to kill you within seconds, and supposed to be the most deadly class there is

All classes are supposed to be equally deadly.

No class should be killing another in 2-3 seconds. That’s just bad gameplay.

Currently MANY classes output too much damage and can drop people near instantly. That is bad design. The thief is merely the most egregious example. Does the thief’s damage need to be lowered? Yes, but so does the damage of other classes.

EasymodeX.4062:

The reason why stuff will get nerfed is because you can:

1. 150% signet the backstab.
2. Use steal while casting CND to bypass CND’s slow casting limitation and backstab’s general stealth/position limitation.

It’s an effective use of capabilities, but it’s over-the-top, particularly for WvW. Dealing >33k damage almost instantly at 900+ range is a bit problematic.

Against someone with heavy armor + toughness, that will still combo for 15k damage, which is a huge health deficit when the Thief still has ~8 Initiative and has only burnt 1 utility and steal.

Yea kind of like the other day when I fought an elementalist that had 62k HP, hit me with a 12k lightning strike, and perma stunned me while flying at 82 mph
Gotta nerf it.

least we aren’t in the position rangers are in. Don’t think we can really complain about nerfs until your damage is a bad as a rangers in pvp.

I assisted devs with balancing high fantasy rpg classes in other pvp games, often having whole lists of my suggestions all implemented with much success, so I’d like to think I have some clue.

The problem is, if they nerf backstab, then it will be really weak in any build other than glass cannon dual dagger. Without going full offense and using a 1min cd signet, backstab really isn’t that powerful at all.

It’s the damage stacking that causes these insane burst numbers, not the ability of backstab itself. I think a solution would be to give assassin’s signet another purpose, and completely remove the +150% damage. Without that signet, no one gets one shotted anymore, and more defensive thief builds can still do damage with backstab then, since they never used the signet in the first place.

How it is now isn’t going to last, I think everyone realizes that, but the nerf needs to come in a way that it only balances pure signet-using glass cannons, and not other builds as well, since the signet thief is the only build that is overpowered.. the others are not very powerful at all. If a nerf affects them, then you end up with ranger/elementalist mark II and yet another broken and overweakened profession.

The only way to do this that I can see, is changing the +150% damage from the assassin signet to something else. Maybe have it give a long duration of several stacks of might, to increase both power and condition builds, that way there is still use for all builds, but the backstab glass cannon is balanced and cannot instagib anymore, he’ll have to work for his kill like any other profession.

So in short, change assassin’s signet to give 5-10 stacks of might, to grant both power and condition damage, for x duration. This way it is useful to pop before you spam DB for example, or before you go in for the backstab CND combo, but it won’t generate these huge single BS numbers anymore that instakill even warriors.

It’ll be more user-friendly, and it’ll be useful for ALL thief builds then.

Zsymon.8457:

The problem is, if they nerf backstab, then it will be really weak in any build other than glass cannon dual dagger. Without going full offense and using a 1min cd signet, backstab really isn’t that powerful at all.

It’s the damage stacking that causes these insane burst numbers, not the ability of backstab itself. I think a solution would be to give assassin’s signet another purpose, and completely remove the +150% damage. Without that signet, no one gets one shotted anymore, and more defensive thief builds can still do damage with backstab then, since they never used the signet in the first place.

How it is now isn’t going to last, I think everyone realizes that, but the nerf needs to come in a way that it only balances pure signet-using glass cannons, and not other builds as well, since the signet thief is the only build that is overpowered.. the others are not very powerful at all. If a nerf affects them, then you end up with ranger/elementalist mark II and yet another broken and overweakened profession.

The only way to do this that I can see, is changing the +150% damage from the assassin signet to something else. Maybe have it give a long duration of several stacks of might, to increase both power and condition builds, that way there is still use for all builds, but the backstab glass cannon is balanced and cannot instagib anymore, he’ll have to work for his kill like any other profession.

I suggested have it change to increase the “effectiveness” of the next 5 abilities by 33%. Effectiveness = Healing/Damage/Condition damage/Range (rounded up ex: 900 would be 1200)

The Might buff is the simplest fix that would resolve most of the absurdity. That instant combo would still overkill me by about 6k damage, but that’s a far sight more legit than being overkilled by 15k. The other more complex piece is Mug during CnD, but that has more sensitivity and requires more consideration than the IWIN Signet.

Sidenote: Not sure why Mug really needs to deal so much damage. Makes me roll my eyes. I wish my power line bonus damage trait were anywhere near as good. I get ~400 damage for interrupting stuff. Wtb 15 times that much damage on a reliable effect.

Ya hoping they reduce damage without breaking the effectiveness of the profession.

Tulisin.6945:

Vrak.2193:

I believe the Thief should be a high damage, low survivability class that is slippery and hard to pin down; very mobile.

This should be a viable way to play a thief, but GW2 professions should not be so strictly classified. There’s no one way to play each profession.

Agreed; I was more referring to a glass-cannon build. This is why these particular builds need to have their damage lowered; they are just too slippery and mobile (and thus have too much survivability for the amount of damage they deal.)

Redscope.6215:

Tulisin.6945:

Vrak.2193:

I believe the Thief should be a high damage, low survivability class that is slippery and hard to pin down; very mobile.

This should be a viable way to play a thief, but GW2 professions should not be so strictly classified. There’s no one way to play each profession.

The problem is, if you’re slippery, hard to pin down, and very mobile, you’re also highly survivable.

A lot of people here don’t understand that (Edit: And I don’t mean “here” as in this forum, I mean game-wide). This game’s survivability is partly build and partly class. Mobility is a huge defensive advantage.

Exactly. This is why certain builds need to be adjusted; too much survivability for the amount of damage they can dish out. There needs to be more of a trade-off.

Vrak.2193:

Redscope.6215:

Tulisin.6945:

Vrak.2193:

I believe the Thief should be a high damage, low survivability class that is slippery and hard to pin down; very mobile.

This should be a viable way to play a thief, but GW2 professions should not be so strictly classified. There’s no one way to play each profession.

The problem is, if you’re slippery, hard to pin down, and very mobile, you’re also highly survivable.

A lot of people here don’t understand that (Edit: And I don’t mean “here” as in this forum, I mean game-wide). This game’s survivability is partly build and partly class. Mobility is a huge defensive advantage.

Exactly. This is why certain builds need to be adjusted; too much survivability for the amount of damage they can dish out. There needs to be more of a trade-off.

Which is why I was saying stealth coupled with a thiefs mobility combined with the bug that occurs with rendering makes thieves pretty much not only hard to kill but one of the games best burst on top of it.

Something has to give either way.

Zsymon.8457:

The problem is, if they nerf backstab, then it will be really weak in any build other than glass cannon dual dagger. Without going full offense and using a 1min cd signet, backstab really isn’t that powerful at all.

It’s the damage stacking that causes these insane burst numbers, not the ability of backstab itself. I think a solution would be to give assassin’s signet another purpose, and completely remove the +150% damage. Without that signet, no one gets one shotted anymore, and more defensive thief builds can still do damage with backstab then, since they never used the signet in the first place.

I realise you have thought this through very carefully and some others share your opinion, but I do not see how it can be right. In fact I think you kinda have it backwards.

If damage stacking were the problem, it would be a problem on any build, because you can stack buffs with any weapon. And if you nerf the damage stacking you nerf ALL those builds which are not overpowered.

The damage stacking is only a problem when you use backstab. And yes, nerfing backstab will be a small nerf to other builds using MH dagger, but I feel it’s a bit of a reach to claim that’s a reason not to do it. Builds not built around BS are by definition not relying heavily on its DPS, so should not be impacted heavily by a nerf.

@ Cribbage
Very skewed and incorrect.

A d/d thief, without assassins signet is lucky to get a 6k crit on backstab, I repeat lucky.
That shows the signet and might stacks that increase the damage a lot.

Now picture the same thief, not built for backstab, could see that 6k, depending if they are still built for crit and that is using the signet, not being built for backstab means no might stacks and probably no extra talent damage based on position.
Without the signet the same thief is going to be doing like 2500-4500 backstabs.
If you nerf backstab then noone that isnt specced for backstab will never use it, if they are condition or tank built they dont really use it anyway. Wouldn’t that state it would need to be replaced with something useful to all builds then?
Again, shows it is the signet and might stacks that cause the high damage increase.

If A-net listened to you and people like you, you would actually end up seeing more backstab builds and less hybrid/other d/d builds that aren’t built for backstab.
Further pigeon holing the class into exactly what you are complaining, just below the surface.

Now if A-net gave thief more weapon choices, or gave the existing weapon choices specific flavor instead of having mish mashed abilities that are for completely opposite builds in the same sets, this would create more diversity. If A-net had wvwvw orbs buff condition damage instead of just increasing flat power and precision for the front loaded builds of all classes, you would see more diversity. If A-net actually made thief what they said they were going to (most mobile class) then you would see more diversity, even if it required heavily speccing into it rather then having to heavily waste the same resource we use for all our weapon abilities (IE initiative) to be on equal movement with some of the other classes (GS Warrior, Ele with a few points in air which surpasses thief)

Backstab. I do not mind this.
It’s my own fault for leaving my back open if I get hit with this.

I would actually be upset if this was nerfed, as its the only thing that gives non-HS thieves a fighting chance against us Mesmies.

Like people said, backstab is not a very strong ability in itself, it will do only half the damage of a warrior eviscerate… the problem is that the assassin’s signet turns a moderate ability into an overpowered one. A +150% damage increase will turn any single high damage attack ability into an overpowered and unbalanced situation. If warriors had this signet, then people would get one shotted by 25K eviscerates for example.

3-6K is what backstab normally does, and since you cannot “spam” backstab in any way or form, this is certainly not too powerful at all. Backstab ONLY becomes a problem because of the assassin’s signet.

Nerf backstab, and the problem won’t be solved, since with the signet even at a -30% dmg nerf, backstab will still do too much damage.. except then it will be useless for anything but a signet build.

Simple logic says that if you remove the signet, backstab is balanced, even on the side of lowly powered compared to other profession’s abilities.

So in short:
- If you nerf backstab by say 30%, the signet will still cause it to do too much damage, you’d have to cut it by 60% or so, and then backstab is useless for any other thief build
and completely useless for pve play, be it solo or dungeons.
- If you replace assassin’s signet active effect, you get rid of overpowered signet backstabs, while still retaining backstab usefulness for pve play and other thief builds.

I think what must be done here is quite obvious.

A -30% backstab damage nerf is not going to fix anything, signet backstabs will still be far too high, and it will stomp mainhand dagger into uselessness for any other purpose.

The only solution is changing assassin’s signet, replacing its active effect.. because just lowering it a bit still won’t solve these insane backstabs. A lazy but easy and simple solution would be changing it to a 5-10 stack might boon, that way the signet becomes useful for all builds, burst or tank or condition.

Backstab thieves are a problem? I just parry it (painfully to them), immobilize them when they pop out of stealth, and burn them down. It’s an amusing build, for sure, but as a non-thief, I haven’t really died to this unless I was already on the losing end of a 1v3 and unable to use my defensives.

Backstab itself isn’t really a problem, it’s people being morons who fail to adapt to what the game asks of them that are the problem. That, and the same morons wear 0-toughness gear.

@Knyx

It’s going to be impossible for us to discuss this helpfully if I use logic and you just quote isolated figures and jump to conclusions from them.

For what you say to be true, Assassin’s Signet would have to be only used by the full BS build thieves. Now I know it is true that they are the main users of it, but any weaponset CAN try to use it (the fact you don’t think it is a great idea does not change that). Similarly, any weaponset can be built around might stacking. Some it would be pointless, but others it would be a valid strategy.

If you nerf might/buff stacking, then any build that is not BS-dependent will get worse. Builds that are not currently overpowered. It should be obvious to anyone, that a general nerf, impacting builds that are not currently OP, would be unfair and would in fact narrow a thief’s choices, not broaden them.

Whereas nerfing the base damage of BS would be a very good way to deal with the problem of buff stacking. When you stack buffs, you amplify the base damage. That means a small nerf to the base damage also gets amplified. So to take a big chunk out of the fully buff AS scenario, you only have to take a small chunk out of the unbuffed BS damage.

A small chunk out of BS damage for MH D build NOT reliant on BS is not going to be a big deal. Some of those builds will be condition based or not reliant on stealth, which will mean BS plays a very minor role.

There will be a nerf to the backstab burst combo I have no doubt. It is just a matter of how they will go about implementing a nerf… change steal from instant cast, change 150% signet, change might stacks trait, i dont know, but seems to me a change is inevitable. I think most folks are against the whole quickness of the burst, if it could be drawn out more, giving targets more chance to react, the community would be much more accepting.

@ Cribbage
lol @ you using logic. Clearly not, you just repeated the same disproven and failed argument that makes zero sense only showing you do not play thief beyond maybe a few spvp matches, and lack serious knowledge about the class in any form of depth to be considered for an argument based on it.

When you QUOTE someone there is no jumping to conculusions and using ISOLATED figures when i quoted EVERYTHING you said. You are just as bad as the guy who said backstab damage increases when the targets health decreases.

Backstab thieves are a problem? I just parry it (painfully to them), immobilize them when they pop out of stealth, and burn them down.

That’s not how Backstab operates in an actual gib build.

Anyways, nerfing Backstab itself is unnecessary. The issue is clearly the signet that turns a 6-8k big hit into a 15-20k pile of cheese.

In fact, ANet could be flexible with the tweaking: have Backstab maintain its rated 2x damage from behind, but allow it to deal 1.5x damage from the sides to make the core ability more reliable.

The primary issue is the ability to stealth + shadowstep + mug + signet backstab instantly at 900 range. The abilities need some delays between them, and the Signet in question is just broken. Tbh, I think a good set of changes to resolve all issues would be the following:

1. Change the CnD animation to apply its damage almost instantly, then complete its animation to stealth. E.g., make it a “dagger and cloak” ability. This would force the Thief to steal early if they wish to inflict the CnD damage as part of the combo, allowing the opponent a moment to react, and slide in a small window of time between the stealth and the Backstab.

2. Alter Mug to inflict 2/3s of its current direct damage, but add 3x Bleed or Poison (or Burning?) effect. Perhaps tweak it to deal even less direct damage but add more condition damage.

3. Make the Signet not what it is. Hell, make it Chill the target for 5 seconds.

4. Allow Backstab to deal 1.5x damage from the sides.

This set of changes would maintain CnD’s general mechanics and actually make CnD more reliable as a stealthing tool. It would retain most of Mug’s capability. It would even improve Backstab’s reliability and consistentcy.

EasymodeX.4062:

Backstab thieves are a problem? I just parry it (painfully to them), immobilize them when they pop out of stealth, and burn them down.

That’s not how Backstab operates in an actual gib build.

Anyways, nerfing Backstab itself is unnecessary. The issue is clearly the signet that turns a 6-8k big hit into a 15-20k pile of cheese.

In fact, ANet could be flexible with the tweaking: have Backstab maintain its rated 2x damage from behind, but allow it to deal 1.5x damage from the sides to make the core ability more reliable.

The primary issue is the ability to stealth + shadowstep + mug + signet backstab instantly at 900 range. The abilities need some delays between them, and the Signet in question is just broken. Tbh, I think a good set of changes to resolve all issues would be the following:

1. Change the CnD animation to apply its damage almost instantly, then complete its animation to stealth. E.g., make it a “dagger and cloak” ability. This would force the Thief to steal early if they wish to inflict the CnD damage as part of the combo, allowing the opponent a moment to react, and slide in a small window of time between the stealth and the Backstab.

2. Alter Mug to inflict 2/3s of its current direct damage, but add 3x Bleed or Poison (or Burning?) effect. Perhaps tweak it to deal even less direct damage but add more condition damage.

3. Make the Signet not what it is. Hell, make it Chill the target for 5 seconds.

4. Allow Backstab to deal 1.5x damage from the sides.

This set of changes would maintain CnD’s general mechanics and actually make CnD more reliable as a stealthing tool. It would retain most of Mug’s capability. It would even improve Backstab’s reliability and consistentcy.

Yea anything to add more conditions a thief can apply and an increase in condition damage scaling would be nice, its not like its OP when every class has 1 or more abilities that will remove ALL stacks at once. Burning is a nice one for thief because it can crit, whilst poison in its current form is very lackluster

Don’t put stealth in an MMO. We all know how this story goes.

imo there are only 2 problems with backstab, and frankly none of them is the backstab:

a)steal→CnD

the main thing is that all other stealths have either a long-ish cd or a drawback (like being stationary, being your heal and etc)
CnD’s drawback is the cast time, it gives time to your opponent to react. by combining the instant 900-1200 range steal with it you remove that drawback.

b) missing backstab doesn’t break stealth
this is simply oversight imo. if this was addressed, then most complaints would be fixed (or they should imo).
the thing is now that if a thief steals→CnD’s you they have 3-4secs to get your back and there is nothing to prevent that. Dodge? they can try again. Blind? they can try again. Block? same and etc etc etc

if either one of those 2 problems are fixed things will be reasonably better. p.e. if the second “flaw” was fixed then the moment a thief stealths near you you can drop an aoe blind to prevent them landing that backstab on you for (usually) 5secs (longer than stealth, so they would need to go back and retry)

or if the first one was fixed, you can do a blind/block/dodge on the CnD.

the option exist for thief to pair it up with BV, which has a 45sec cd, close to most people’s stunbreaker CD. so if both people’s cd is up then they come out equal (thief can’t kill the opponent, but can leave and retry without any actual harm if he is not a scrub) but if your stunbreaker is on CD then the thief’s elite skill has done it’s job and prevent’s you from activating that block/dodge/blind that would prevent his burst)

Tbh, the BV doesn’t matter one way or another in most cases.

Knyx.5926

@ Cribbage
lol @ you using logic. Clearly not, you just repeated the same disproven and failed argument that makes zero sense only showing you do not play thief beyond maybe a few spvp matches, and lack serious knowledge about the class in any form of depth to be considered for an argument based on it.

When you QUOTE someone there is no jumping to conculusions and using ISOLATED figures when i quoted EVERYTHING you said. You are just as bad as the guy who said backstab damage increases when the targets health decreases.

Soooo … quoting me makes it impossible for you to have jumped to a conclusion.

Wow, you must be a professor of logic or something, because personally I see no logical relationship between the fact you quoted me and the validity of your own comments. You really showed me there.

What I was trying to say was logically the problem cannot be buff stacking. It can only be at best buff stacking when applied to backstab or at worst backstab regardless of buff stacking. That’s logically irrefutable. If you don’t know why, it can only be because you do not understand logic.

Vexus.5423
Nerf the effin Engineer. Wholy Kitten Skrittman that’s burst.

No. To set up grenade barrage the engineer in that video is using Net Shot: 10 second cooldown EASILY dodged attack (keep your eye out for the only smart player in the vid who actually dodges it), and he has to do his rotation set up OUT of stealth. Also, part of his rotation is the buggy/slow as hell Jump Shot. Another move that is very easily and regularly dodged. Eng are not even on par with Thief ease and power of burst. 99% of the players who died in that video didn’t know where their dodge key was.

Cribbage.2056:

Knyx.5926

@ Cribbage
lol @ you using logic. Clearly not, you just repeated the same disproven and failed argument that makes zero sense only showing you do not play thief beyond maybe a few spvp matches, and lack serious knowledge about the class in any form of depth to be considered for an argument based on it.

When you QUOTE someone there is no jumping to conculusions and using ISOLATED figures when i quoted EVERYTHING you said. You are just as bad as the guy who said backstab damage increases when the targets health decreases.

Soooo … quoting me makes it impossible for you to have jumped to a conclusion.

Wow, you must be a professor of logic or something, because personally I see no logical relationship between the fact you quoted me and the validity of your own comments. You really showed me there.

What I was trying to say was logically the problem cannot be buff stacking. It can only be at best buff stacking when applied to backstab or at worst backstab regardless of buff stacking. That’s logically irrefutable. If you don’t know why, it can only be because you do not understand logic.

…and I was explaining exactly how that “logic” is flawed and incorrect. There is no jumping to conclusions, that is how you post, reply and argue.

If you are having problems seeing, try Lenscrafters.

Krathalos.3461:

It’s kind of sad. People can’t counter thieves and think they’re OP because they counter their glass cannon playstyle. Now we have to suffer for it.

Glass cannon? I got wrecked by a thief with a decently geared level 65 Guardian. Now you’re not about to tell me the five heals I can pull off as a guardian make me a glass cannon, are you? Or how about the other two people I had with me, all trying to run around and chase down a teleporting, stealthing thief were too squishy, are you?

Has anybody else noticed that the amount of salt in the thief forum outmatches the pacific ocean?
Seriously. All I see is “OP this, OP that, nerf this, nerf that.”

Hermes.7014:

Has anybody else noticed that the amount of salt in the thief forum outmatches the pacific ocean?
Seriously. All I see is “OP this, OP that, nerf this, nerf that.”

It is unfortunate, but that’s what happens when you try to balance out a high powered class like the thief. If played right, it should be able to deal massive damage, but skill should be able to counter it. Right now, with the kit of skills I have at my disposal, I simply cannot stop a thief with a short bow and two daggers, no matter how much I heal, no matter how many times I close the gap or knock him down, I just can’t finish the thief. That’s what bothers me. It shouldn’t be like that.

I suppose I could use wall of reflection to try and keep the short bow harass away, but that wont in itself kill the thief, nor close the gap to allow me to use my skills against him.

Harpazo.5217:

Krathalos.3461:

It’s kind of sad. People can’t counter thieves and think they’re OP because they counter their glass cannon playstyle. Now we have to suffer for it.

Glass cannon? I got wrecked by a thief with a decently geared level 65 Guardian. Now you’re not about to tell me the five heals I can pull off as a guardian make me a glass cannon, are you? Or how about the other two people I had with me, all trying to run around and chase down a teleporting, stealthing thief were too squishy, are you?

Uplevel…learn what it does…glass cannon…learn what it means…

Seriously…why the kitten is this thread still up?