Guild Wars 2

Backstab is a staple in the legend of thief/rogue class in RPGs. YES even dungeons and dragons. It is supposed to be a powerful attack, but maybe the mechanics of it can be changed. In old school MUDs backstab could only be used as an opener, and only if the other character was at full health or near it. also, stealth couldnt be used in battle. but of course, in this game stealth only lasts like 2 seconds so unless they change that or give a full time stealth, then that wouldn’t work much.

I hope BS gets nerfed, it’s the thing that rules meta right now and thus it must be adjusted. A class with spammable invulnerability (Invis is effective invulnerability, yes) shouldn’t be having such damage output.

And it will get nerfed. The question is when and how much. And seeing how “fast” A-net is… well, not like this game had any future on the E-sports arena anyway.

@Edelweiss
Invis does not mean invulnerability. Stop trying to spread BS to validate yourself.

Sick of these scrubs spreading misinformation to justify nerfs.

nerf mesmer! woohoo

Edelweiss.9815:

I hope BS gets nerfed, it’s the thing that rules meta right now and thus it must be adjusted. A class with spammable invulnerability (Invis is effective invulnerability, yes) shouldn’t be having such damage output.

And it will get nerfed. The question is when and how much. And seeing how “fast” A-net is… well, not like this game had any future on the E-sports arena anyway.

Stealth = Invulnerabilty? You are clearly ignorant about the thief class and shouldn’t even be posting here.

I finally got to the forums (thanks, hard-working A-net people) and though I play a thief, I did chose this proffession long before GW2 was out, and only due to the fact that Rt/A is my most precious experience from still as epic as ever GW1.
I would like to note that I never liked pure damage builds, and even if I played one I’d be sure to create one from a scratch.
So currently, I am a support thief, venom shares and +1 to venom ticks, gear is all cleric. I’d even go as far as to say I am a newbie, since I didn’t rearrange hotkeys with the exception of 3 – turn around button, look back button, dodge button.
First thing I want to share as my opinion – even if GW2 is much more solo-friendly, I was never meant to be a game with any sensible XvY fights, where any of X and Y is any number lower than 5. This bring me to a first point – if, at any time, you are in any of such situations – you or your opponent or even more likely both – are doing something wrong. Of course, it cannot be always avoided. But if you are facing a situation where you, for example, are alone you should realise that there is noone watching your back. And you should AT LEAST look around yourself constantly and even better, switch your weapon set/utility skills to defensive ones. Because if I (4% crit rate and ~1600 power with zero damaging traits) can run a minute after you, switching my skills for a fight with you, change weapons and traits and bring you to half hp with zero stealth skills before you notice me, I can imagine what can trained glass cannons do to you. Since the start of serious WvW business I never experinced letting thief get into the range of steal unnoticed. Unlike mesmers. I am sorry, but if you cannot spot a person that needs to cover at very LEAST 2000 feet to come in range in an empty area, you deserve to die because I is you who takes up spots in que instead of people that are better. This covers the SUPRIZE part of the opness. Moving to next one.

Stealth. YES RENDERING IN WVW IS BUGGED. But seriously. One of the key features of GW2. If you can show off your skills and flashy aoe’s in a middle of a town why can’t you do a pair of swings / fields around if you if you suspect thief to be near. Or ask nearby allies (if theres none, look at point 1) to “UNLEASH HELL IN DIRECTION”. Without a bug, gw2 stealth is the least op stealth i’ve ever seen in any mmo.
Going to point 3. Lets start with that epic hax backstab damage. So my backstab crits squshies for about 2-3k. Now that’s really op. Considering it is my greatest damaging ability and at the same time only offensive use for a stealth on a stealth specced thief. Oh and I actually need to be at back of my enemy and to actually crit (with my 4% crit) it. Considering I can only get in stealth with 8 ini points combo or by jumping of a cliff. Certainly in need of a nerf.
Now there are other thieves. Glass cannons, signet, might stacking, precasting CnD (actually, shadowstep that did not interrupt actions is the only thing gw1 lacked and the most awesome thing intentionally introduced in gw2) and mugging people with over 30k total damage in some seconds.
Now lets see. A thief that dies (or at least gets really sad and discouraged with his build) from few random things thrown his way made his way unnoticed by you and the zerg/guild/party near you into a range of a steal, by some incredible luck his steal teleported him right at you back so he could just press the signet button to kill you. Well, its not suprising these days. Considering we managed to build with 10 random people 3 ballistas in 1000 feet range behind a zerg hitting their rams (heads) into the gate without a single rock thrown our way.
Seriously. You can probably count the amount of skills that you cannot use while moving in this whole game on one hand. So this point being – if you are not moving – you are either casting an unmovable skill, sitting in siege thing or doing something wrong. Considering You SHOULD HAVE noticed thief before he could port to you I cannot imagine how hard it can be to start moving and turning around (if for some strange reason you werent doing so before). And hold you finger on a dodge button. Not on a pewpew skill.
Now I want to sleep more than to write more so I will continue after. Do note that I am here because for somehow I am suddenly killing mobs in pve 15% slower with one of the weapons for absolutely no reason. And I would hate to lose the only offensive use for my stealth and my only DAMAGING move beside cluster for the reasons like 1) people running alone on WORLD vs WORLD map of mmo oriented for teamplay 2) caring about deaths/kills in a OBJECTIVE mass pvp where you can be ressed instantly with no penalty
3) not paying attention (tunnel vision aka ambush backstab in melee range with a ballista)
4) not moving in a game that does no penalize you for doing so (if you consider yourself too bad to dodge/move away from few things, you could at least FACE backstab)
5) crying and begging and complaining everywhere and forcing ANET (they have a bit of a trouble with realising the difference between gw1 and gw2 communities) doing unneeded things.

P.S. I am not defending those op thieves. I am not denying thives’ strengths.
I am protecting thief as a versatile class that can be usefull and fun in many situations with many builds. I am claiming that this class does not need nerfing but is in a proccess of tuning.
In guild team I play with (1-2 parties mostly) I’ve never experienced lone or small bunches of thieves no matter how awesome they are to pose any difficulties other that actually killing them (that noone should really care abbout). I do not want my thief (that somehow is not killed by those cannons even with my noobishness due to a late start in game) to be denied of that little I still have in terms of offense because of some or many simply better and better geared that simply do not understand the rules by which WvW should be played and evaluated

Ichishi.9613:

Stealth. YES RENDERING IN WVW IS BUGGED. But seriously. One of the key features of GW2. If you can show off your skills and flashy aoe’s in a middle of a town why can’t you do a pair of swings / fields around if you if you suspect thief to be near. Or ask nearby allies (if theres none, look at point 1) to “UNLEASH HELL IN DIRECTION”. Without a bug, gw2 stealth is the least op stealth i’ve ever seen in any mmo.
Going to point 3. Lets start with that epic hax backstab damage. So my backstab crits squshies for about 2-3k. Now that’s really op. Considering it is my greatest damaging ability and at the same time only offensive use for a stealth on a stealth specced thief. Oh and I actually need to be at back of my enemy and to actually crit (with my 4% crit) it. Considering I can only get in stealth with 8 ini points combo or by jumping of a cliff. Certainly in need of a nerf.
Now there are other thieves. Glass cannons, signet, might stacking, precasting CnD (actually, shadowstep that did not interrupt actions is the only thing gw1 lacked and the most awesome thing intentionally introduced in gw2) and mugging people with over 30k total damage in some seconds.
Now lets see. A thief that dies (or at least gets really sad and discouraged with his build) from few random things thrown his way made his way unnoticed by you and the zerg/guild/party near you into a range of a steal, by some incredible luck his steal teleported him right at you back so he could just press the signet button to kill you. Well, its not suprising these days. Considering we managed to build with 10 random people 3 ballistas in 1000 feet range behind a zerg hitting their rams (heads) into the gate without a single rock thrown our way.
Seriously. You can probably count the amount of skills that you cannot use while moving in this whole game on one hand. So this point being – if you are not moving – you are either casting an unmovable skill, sitting in siege thing or doing something wrong. Considering You SHOULD HAVE noticed thief before he could port to you I cannot imagine how hard it can be to start moving and turning around (if for some strange reason you werent doing so before). And hold you finger on a dodge button. Not on a pewpew skill.
Now I want to sleep more than to write more so I will continue after. Do note that I am here because for somehow I am suddenly killing mobs in pve 15% slower with one of the weapons for absolutely no reason. And I would hate to lose the only offensive use for my stealth and my only DAMAGING move beside cluster for the reasons like 1) people running alone on WORLD vs WORLD map of mmo oriented for teamplay 2) caring about deaths/kills in a OBJECTIVE mass pvp where you can be ressed instantly with no penalty
3) not paying attention (tunnel vision aka ambush backstab in melee range with a ballista)
4) not moving in a game that does no penalize you for doing so (if you consider yourself too bad to dodge/move away from few things, you could at least FACE backstab)
5) crying and begging and complaining everywhere and forcing ANET (they have a bit of a trouble with realising the difference between gw1 and gw2 communities) doing unneeded things.

P.S. I am not defending those op thieves. I am not denying thives’ strengths.
I am protecting thief as a versatile class that can be usefull and fun in many situations with many builds. I am claiming that this class does not need nerfing but is in a proccess of tuning.
In guild team I play with (1-2 parties mostly) I’ve never experienced lone or small bunches of thieves no matter how awesome they are to pose any difficulties other that actually killing them (that noone should really care abbout). I do not want my thief (that somehow is not killed by those cannons even with my noobishness due to a late start in game) to be denied of that little I still have in terms of offense because of some or many simply better and better geared that simply do not understand the rules by which WvW should be played and evaluated

I like what you said about being able to count the amount of self rooting abilities in the whole game on 1 hand. So true, and the funniest part is that Thief (the supposed to be mobility based class) got one……. Its like one of those things where you ask “did A-net have a temp design the sword set skills, I don’t think a monkey is that bad”

pistol whip is okay, except the part between landing stun and starting to evade. Its just damage nerf that had more impact on pve than pvp.
Aside from shadow form, there was no skill too stong in pve in gw1. And the rest of balancing was always about HA/GvG not random arenas and alliance battles.
I see more problems in wvw with scoring system, with the fact that such important things as caravans can be killed with zero effort with any kind of any leveled lone character and camps that can be captured by 1-2 players once buff on claimer is gone.
I am yet to experience problems with my own or any other thieves’ op-ness in WvW

You might think Pistol whip is okay but it is hypocrisy to the thief design

I am sorry, but if you cannot spot a person that needs to cover at very LEAST 2000 feet to come in range in an empty area

You must not play on a populated server where the scary thief is not the only player on the battlefield.

Not to mention the culling … 2000 feet? Lol.

Thief, guardian and mesmer are the top tier professions of the moment, but their players will always come in and say that they’re fine, that “you suck” and that you “should learn to play” because they are “oh so easy to counter”. Fortunately, those three have been getting nerfs, and will probably keep getting a few more.

Profession popularity in spvp is driven by the strongest available options, as all/ most games show. Especially when those options are also the easiest to use. Elementalist players have almost disappeared from spvp, while it’s commonly seen teams running 3 or 4 thieves, and 2 or 3 mesmers.

Interestingly, warriors are not seen as much as thieves/ mesmers/ (guardians). Maybe because their popular burst combo is more balanced than what it seems at first glance. HB actually is easily avoidable. HB even happens to be easily predictable. And HB can even be rupted. It’s not like a thief that takes half of your HP before even coming out of stealth. cough

Thread is tldr because I have to go to school…However, I think backstab needs nerf. I have a char with 2000 vitality & 1200 toughness. I get 1-hit killed by backstab. I’m not a glass cannon. I get 1-hit. How’s that fair? Even if it’s not a 1-hit kill skill (I’ve certainly never abused it on my thief), how is any skill fair that can take a player from full health with no conditions down to 0 health in under 0.1 seconds?

The answer is not “Oh yeah, see the stealth-ed thief coming and plan accordingly” by the way. That is the point of stealth.

YOu do understand we stealth with our melee hit ? and to get in range of 900 we need to go in close enuf not beeing invisible. Our invisibiity start after we steal(shadowstep to you from 900 range) then invis then backstab, which is clearly noticable unless you are ocupied in a battle. anyways 1200 toughness on light class is like what ?2100 armor ? which is still rly low but w/e im bored with justifying backstab, it does right ammount of damage as it should however signet is the problem, as its only usefull in only backstab build, and i dont mind changing it.

Simplicity.7208:

Thread is tldr because I have to go to school…However, I think backstab needs nerf. I have a char with 2000 vitality & 1200 toughness. I get 1-hit killed by backstab. I’m not a glass cannon. I get 1-hit. How’s that fair? Even if it’s not a 1-hit kill skill (I’ve certainly never abused it on my thief), how is any skill fair that can take a player from full health with no conditions down to 0 health in under 0.1 seconds?

The answer is not “Oh yeah, see the stealth-ed thief coming and plan accordingly” by the way. That is the point of stealth.

So charr doesn’t really tell us much but let me give you some ideas on health and armor. You have with approximate 2k vitality and 1200 toughness (which is super low btw). This is WITHOUT any traits and are approximates. I just used the talent calc for my comparison. Usually these calcs are good for spvp and not very accurate for wvw. Gear actually factors in WvW quite a bit.
———————————————————————————————————-
Elementalist = 22k health / 2100 armor
Warrior = 29k health / 2450 armor
Ranger = 26k / 2300
Necro = 29k / 2200
Guardian = 22k / 2450
Thief = 22k / 2300
Engineer = 26k / 2300
Mesmer = 26k /2100
——————————————————————————

The technique this thief could have used was a steal + mug, CnD, Assassin’s Signet + Backstab. Pretty sure it’s well beyond that 0.1 second you gave but let me see if I can get closer…. Steal + Mug + Hidden Thief + Assassin’s Signet + backstab. Pretty sure it still takes longer than 0.1 seconds but we’ll just say it’s 1 second. Health helps with burst but higher toughness also helps and that’s something you’re neglecting, by a lot. My guardian has 13k health and 3k armor in spvp and I can take this combo and get away if I don’t see him in time. BTW you can see thieves coming unless of course they used blinding powder to get close enough. Regardless, he’s using 2 utilities to make sure he can hopefully kill you and then the signet is on CD for 45 seconds and Blinding powder is on a 60 CD. After that he is spent and it comes down to using a rendering issue and hitting CnD every 4-5 seconds to try another attempt at backstab.

Yeah it’s a L2P. That thief got the jump on you and his build/gear paid off. He took out 1 person that just happen to be you. We are kings of 1v1 with this build.

Pretty sure it’s well beyond that 0.1 second you gave but let me see if I can get closer…. Steal + Mug + Hidden Thief + Assassin’s Signet + backstab. Pretty sure it still takes longer than 0.1 seconds but we’ll just say it’s 1 second.

Precasted CND removes almost all the time from the combo. So you CND->Mug->SigBackstab.

I recommend using a G15/G19 or other tool to automate the sequence of SigBackstab. Or just rebind your utilities appropriately.

The damage lands starting with Mug into the end of CND into the Backstab. Effective execution results in all damage landing with 0.5 seconds.

Being top at 1v1 is fine. Dealing 30k+ damage from 900 range within 0.5 seconds is not.

Okay I’ll make it as short and understandable as possible before I leave this topic completely.
1) There is a problem with rendering after stealth, not with the stealth itself
2) Backstab is the ONLY thief skill that benefits from assasin’s signet
3) Backstab is the ONLY thief skill that benefits fully from 100% crit in stealth talent
4) There is a problem with people. I know I cannot expect same I could during GW1 prime from people, but please. ANET really reads this and listens to everyone. So please, if you want to say anything do that like an objective report of an issue. With facts, numbers and other things.
Because people come here, complain “i haz 2k tough and 20k hp and get oneshot”. I am at freaking 1850 tough in greens and 13k hp and I don’t get oneshotted by anything even remotely. Guildies with some remote investment into defensive traits and gears just laugh at this kind of statements.

Backstab is ok, assassin’s signet and quickness are not.

Yukishiro.8792:

Backstab is ok, assassin’s signet and quickness are not.

If quickness is touched Sword will have to be redesigned

Anybody who say’s they are getting “one hit” with backstab is a liar. Provide screenshots please. My character is completely decked out and i’ve never been able to one shot even with all signets going.

You mean Pistol Whip will have to be re-designed.

That aside, Mug is also a problem because of its combined direct damage and ability to be used while using something else (in this case, a CND).

So the signet and quickness are the two largest culprits, but there are a few other things that need tuning as well.

Poomz.5920:

My character is completely decked out and i’ve never been able to one shot even with all signets going.

What do you consider “decked out”?

Knyx.5926:

Yukishiro.8792:

Backstab is ok, assassin’s signet and quickness are not.

If quickness is touched Sword will have to be redesigned

Weapons should be viable outside of overpowered cooldowns. If a weapon set is deemed UP without quickness and OP with it, then clearly the problem is quickness and should therefore be balanced. Then and only then can many of the other weapons be brought in line with each other. Thiefs aren’t the only ones suffering from quickness dependency either. If it was up to me, the stat would be removed completely. I’d rather have high sustained DPS then crazy DPS 6% of the time. But then again, I primarily PVE, so I don’t have the luxury of downtime between kills.

Kurow.6973:

Harpazo.5217:

Krathalos.3461:

It’s kind of sad. People can’t counter thieves and think they’re OP because they counter their glass cannon playstyle. Now we have to suffer for it.

Glass cannon? I got wrecked by a thief with a decently geared level 65 Guardian. Now you’re not about to tell me the five heals I can pull off as a guardian make me a glass cannon, are you? Or how about the other two people I had with me, all trying to run around and chase down a teleporting, stealthing thief were too squishy, are you?

Uplevel…learn what it does…glass cannon…learn what it means…

Seriously…why the kitten is this thread still up?

The thread is still up because classy folk like you don’t know how to have a conversation so very little gets settled within the community.

ArtemisEntreri.4138

The technique this thief could have used was a steal + mug, CnD, Assassin’s Signet + Backstab. Pretty sure it’s well beyond that 0.1 second you gave but let me see if I can get closer…. Steal + Mug + Hidden Thief + Assassin’s Signet + backstab. Pretty sure it still takes longer than 0.1 seconds but we’ll just say it’s 1 second. Health helps with burst but higher toughness also helps and that’s something you’re neglecting, by a lot. My guardian has 13k health and 3k armor in spvp and I can take this combo and get away if I don’t see him in time. BTW you can see thieves coming unless of course they used blinding powder to get close enough. Regardless, he’s using 2 utilities to make sure he can hopefully kill you and then the signet is on CD for 45 seconds and Blinding powder is on a 60 CD. After that he is spent and it comes down to using a rendering issue and hitting CnD every 4-5 seconds to try another attempt at backstab.

No. It was 0.1 seconds. It was literally over before I could move my finger from the S key to the X key to dodge. It was faster than that 1 inch finger movement. I couldn’t respond, dodge, do anything. I just got 1 hit. Respawned in 15 seconds, tried to attack. Got 1 hit again. I couldn’t even touch him. So apparently that ability to just 1-shot people doesn’t rely on those cooldowns you mentioned and it doesn’t take 1 second otherwise I could’ve dodged. Still not seeing how this is fair. Also, I tried like a 3rd, 4th, and 5th time using 1900 toughness and 1300 vitality, still got killed before I could use a single skill, dodge, use a utility, or anything. Literally 1 hit killed every single time.

Other than that guy though, I was unkillable for both the hour prior and the 10~20 minutes or so afterward, so it leads me to believe it’s a problem with that guy’s specific build. Not my skill level. Or, you know, everyone on my server sucks. That’s possible too I guess.

No. It was 0.1 seconds. It was literally over before I could move my finger from the S key to the X key to dodge. It was faster than that 1 inch finger movement. I couldn’t respond, dodge, do anything. I just got 1 hit. Respawned in 15 seconds, tried to attack. Got 1 hit again. I couldn’t even touch him. So apparently that ability to just 1-shot people doesn’t rely on those cooldowns you mentioned and it doesn’t take 1 second otherwise I could’ve dodged.

99% of Thieves on these threads don’t actually comprehend how to execute the Backstab combo. To be fair, to execute it perfectly you actually want to use a macro since the timing is slightly sensitive (or you just practice it a lot).

The Thief uses Cloak and Dagger which is a ~1s cast ability, and right before the end of the cast, they use Steal. Steal is instant and teleports them to your position and you eat Mug damage. As that happens, the damage and stealth of CnD take effect. Ideally, the CnD hit is 0.1 seconds after the Stealth. Then, the Thief uses Signet and Backstab. Both are instant, but the Signet needs to be used after the CnD hit (so the CnD doesn’t use the Signet effect). This is where the macro helps.

Anyways, the “precasting” of CnD is the reason why the damage ends up all being within 0.25 seconds.

Ironically, the quickness utility is not required to execute this damage, even though it’s the “fastest” burst a Thief can achieve.

Edit:

The most obvious indicator that random Thief posters don’t know what they’re talking about is that they discuss the concept of “using CnD again”. Using full Berserker gear, the combo exceeds 30k damage on a glass level 80 target in full exotics. Even against tougher targets with missed crits, the degree of damage puts them near death and/or leaves the rest of the encounter as trivial.

Note that none of this combo includes the additional 1111 spam or Heartseekers that follow (the combo leaves the Thief with ~8 Initiative remaining).

well if it comes to “touching” like in the name of the topic id really prefer steal alone not to be touched ever. At the moment it is really a most fun, useful and is the trademark of thieves as it is. Porting without breaking the cast is what I consider the leading point of thieves “mobility”.
And to add to what EasymodeX said – for a combo to be instant thief will have to port to your BACK.

Is it so hard to start moving in a casual pattern to make it difficult for thieves to hit your back? That’s how you deal with them. Keep moving and don’t be lazy.
If you are just standing still in one place you are just asking for it. Making a perfect target for a backstab and if you get hit in the back it’s your fault for not moving and not seeing the thief before he can get at range 900.

EasymodeX.4062:

The most obvious indicator that random Thief posters don’t know what they’re talking about is that they discuss the concept of “using CnD again”. Using full Berserker gear, the combo exceeds 30k damage on a glass level 80 target in full exotics. Even against tougher targets with missed crits, the degree of damage puts them near death and/or leaves the rest of the encounter as trivial.

I see you posting this nonsense in multiple threads yet not a single shred of proof. It’s simply not true, and the math backs it up. As glass canon spec, most of my backstabs in sPvP CRIT for 3-4k. With signet might stacks + assassin’s signet I saw 8k crit once on another glass canon a few days ago. Even with Mug and CnD critting on top of that, that’s a far cry from your mythical 30k. Stop trolling.

Ok… link a screenshot of your thief in full berserker gear doing 30k damage, show me the combat log please, I wanna see your thief doing this, not someone else attacking you.

Ive got no problem with a nerf to the Thief, but for every Nerf, another skill should be fixed. A few of the Venom’s are going unused by most, because they are just not effective enough. Traps, Ive played hours of WvW and have yet to see more than 15 people running traps. They could use something along the lines of “Pulses twice over 1.5 seconds after activated” added to their effect, just so their worth their recharge time. Thief has a pretty limited assortment of AOE, and that would really round out the class nicely.
And I know that while the Signets are strong, Infiltrators Signet’s passive kind of blows IMO.
If you wanna Nerf the Thief, go right ahead, with all the Nerf bats Ive been hit with as a Thief, I still beat down a group of 5 players in WvW alone the other night. But at lest give us some buffs where we’re weak. I wouldnt mind being able to Heal allies better. I feel like the Thief doesn’t have that team player feel everyone else has.

Daecollo.9578:

Ok… link a screenshot of your thief in full berserker gear doing 30k damage, show me the combat log please, I wanna see your thief doing this, not someone else attacking you.

Tbh I’m curious about this also