(Fixing forum bug post)
Edit: As a side note, Shadow does bring up a point about Skirmish potentially doing what Daredevil does a little too well. I think Ink Body being a minor trait may need to be examined further, and I may remove the immobilize cleanse component from it as to still give Daredevil a prominent position over the Deadeye at simply being that much more difficult to lock down. Tomorrow I plan to do a little bit more testing, and I’ll inspect this issue a little more in depth. Please discuss this adjustment, and whether or not you think it may be a good or bad change overall in fairness to the DD and power level of the DE.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
It was in the podcast when they were previewing the June 23rd patch. It was when Robert Gee was explaining why the Necromancer traits for things like Path of Corruption and Dhuumfire say Shroud Skill X instead of the name of the skill, that way as the introduce new Elite specs they don’t have to change the core traits. They could change the “on steal” part but it’s pretty unlikely they would do that since he said they did that because they don’t want to change core traits to suit elite specs.
Also, you might think of how to do it similar to Celestial Avatar, maybe have some sort of bar that builds up.
It was in the podcast when they were previewing the June 23rd patch. It was when Robert Gee was explaining why the Necromancer traits for things like Path of Corruption and Dhuumfire say Shroud Skill X instead of the name of the skill, that way as the introduce new Elite specs they don’t have to change the core traits. They could change the “on steal” part but it’s pretty unlikely they would do that since he said they did that because they don’t want to change core traits to suit elite specs.
I recall them announcing how they were handling the change, and yes, it was a way to universalize the traits and descriptions. The same treatment could be done here, which is why I’m not sure what you’re arguing about; none of the traits need mechanical changes for the Deadeye.
Tooltip updates are really easy and are updated often anyways for better clarity. I doubt this issue would be a problem. The only trait “necessary” to change would be Quick Pockets to give it an ICD as the swapping of SHF would be frequent, and on core thief, it’s impossible to swap weapons more than once every 10 seconds, anyways, so having it have a cooldown of ten seconds would enable the effects to be gained once every few transforms rather than enabling normal reveal → Improvisation + SHF + Quick Pockets → Exit SHF → Charge + SHF again due to no cooldown on SHF from improvisation fill an entire initiative bar from 0. It’s not really an important thing to do with the Deadeye itself, but a preemptive balance call on the core class which changes nothing about the core skill/trait itself, but just adjusts functionality so that this combination of traits isn’t overpowered. Basically, it reduces the need for having something launch as OP and then need to be hotfixed.
The talks about Shadow Shot and potentially-nerfable core skills and traits are more generic and not as applicable. You’re certainly right that I shouldn’t expect these or depend on them, and should work on improving design to not need to even look at core abilities as potentially overpowered. That said, Shadow Shot is widely-regarded as being overpowered, and the math backs up that claim pretty readily, and even not in the context of Deadeye, I genuinely would like to see the ability cut down a bit. But that’s another thread/discussion.
Also, you might think of how to do it similar to Celestial Avatar, maybe have some sort of bar that builds up.
The thing about SHF is that it isn’t really meant to be a tool used to disengage or transform mid-combat after a brief period of hard engage and burning initiative. SHF is meant to be about committing to a fight but giving the thief a usable toolkit to have while revealed, either by itself or by an enemy, or down on initiative, with Charge being used as an engage tool just as Steal, only that it enables SHF right off the bat, or enables a Deadeye to refill his initiative after engaging a foe to continue fighting, but not having access to stealth to disengage very well. It’s meant to have frequent use and not depend on landing substantial hits or being hit a lot, since the class doesn’t do well with either. Transform may warrant a higher cooldown, kitten is very low and makes Improvisation a trait choice not really worth warranting in most builds. That said, not every single core trait will align perfectly with every elite specialization, so I’d have to run some tests on making that adjustment to call it fair to builds not running the trait.
Thanks for the input nonetheless.
Did some testing. Version 2.1.0 up.
Major changes include a general balance and polish subsection and substantial adjustments to Noxious Fumes poison stack application.
There should be a rule – Thou shall not make any suggestions revolving around Revealed. It’s a lazy, not well thought of mechanic that should really go away.
Just my 2 cents.
It’s a necessary one. Recall the days of old when it wasn’t around and thief was absolutely and totally overpowered?
It doesn’t have to be Revealed, that’s the problem. The fault is at the design of the weapon skills leaving it without cooldown. A simple cooldown on Backstab (and all other Stealth attacks) would have solved the stealth problem without punishing the stealth mechanic really had. Stealth is not just an access to a really powerful attack, it is also the Thief’s defensive mechanic and by disabling the Thief from using their defensive just because they used a stealth attack is a stupid solution to the problem. Revealed was never a solution, it’s lazy band-aid patch that punishes the Thief by self-inflicting Revealed and giving anti-stealth to other classes.
Access to the Revealed mechanic by other classes is lazy, but it’s a lazy but necessary solution because giving so much stealth to other classes is a lazy solution. The increased access to revealing the thief by other classes is part of the basis of this spec’s design; it acts as a means to counter the hard counter which was implemented due to a snowball of poor previous design choices.
They can simply de-stealth the Thief rather than giving them Revealed. Or make and anti-stealth mechanic where a profession, an Engineer putting on a pair of goggles for example, can see stealth characters or give the party member an ability to see stealth creature, but never apply Revealed. They have proven in HoT that they have the technology to allow players to see stealth creatures…this tech should replace Revealed altogether.
I sincerely doubt ANet will reduce or remove stealth access on scrapper/mesmer/trapper runes, and making Revealed Training serve a definitive purpose while giving a committal playstyle to the thief rather than the non-committal one it has now will turn the tables on how the profession can be played, which was the goal of the elites; it wasn’t just power creep.
The solution is de-stealth and stealth detection, not Revealed.
If you did read everything and still feel the implementation of the spec is shoddy, I can’t help you. This is numerically the best implementation I was able to devise which solved conceptual problems the thief is facing right now in combat, rather than just sheer buffs. Buffs got us into the mess we’re in now. I’d rather not keep pushing for them.
I like the concept, but I’m not a big fan of suggestion that is built around Revealed because that will only make Revealed more embedded and will be hard to get rid of later on. The Daredevil Elite spec didn’t even bother working around stealth and Revealed, which is the right direction to take the Thief’s Elite profession.
We shouldn’t be accepting the existence of Revealed, nor we should even accept it as a necessary fix, because there are other solutions and they should get rid of Revealed instead of designing skills, trait, and other mechanics around it. It’s not a good mechanic, it’s a lazy solution and should not be acknowledged nor accepted as part of the Thief profession.
It wasn’t even backstab/damage that was the problem; they could have nerfed coefficients. It was endless chaining of CnD which led targets to not even be aware they were being attacked or from what angle, that was.
There are very few thieves who have problems with being revealed after using an attack from stealth. Honestly, I am against chained stealth as a concept entirely, and I think the ability to chain stealth is a big part of the reason why the thief is a terrible fighting class, because balance becomes half-subjective. Without the revealed mechanic as the basis for the Deadeye, the numbers would need substantially more ambiguity and the fighting potential of the class if not based around spamming evades would need to be cut somewhere else massively; simply the thief would need to lose its access to any sort of burst or damage through strict, forced, specialization-invoked penalties. I’d rather not just straight-up nerf the thief to enable other styles of play. Further, this is a suggestion about subsequent design to inspire the developers for the next spec, not to address issues with the core thief. Doing so has already proven a nightmare since pretty much no two thieves can reach a consensus on what they want out of the class.
I also do not understand why you believe that stealth detection is any better, especially when you suggest that it could be made an AoE. That effectively is revealed. The only difference would be that Rejuv would tick, as even target loss is pretty pointless considering most abilities cleave, and the new action camera enables many target-requiring attacks to no longer need a target and simply be shot at the desired location, also kind of ruling out any benefit.
Plus, it makes no sense why one couldn’t call a target or target a visible foe one’s self. He’s visible to you; got beat him up.
Revealed is fine so long as imposed revealed by other classes is more controlled. The thief being able to access it himself and apply it to himself is really not a balance or conceptual concern, and part of the point of the Deadeye was to give the thief a reason to play in a way which allows and even promotes the thief to committing to a fight with little effective way to just reset on a whim unless fairly substantial build sacrifices and adjustments are made to do so. Revealed is an excellent way to feature and mechanically ensure this. This also indirectly nerfs the use of revealing skills, as doing so could potentially give the Deadeye substantial access to SHF without needing to combo into it, giving it direct savings in terms of initiative to gain extended access to SHF. It does little to affect self-inflicted reveal from the thief itself, and also enables really good use of the abilities which do reveal the thief to have their desired impact, but simply takes the significance away from these abilities from always being useful/impeding at all times.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
It was in the podcast when they were previewing the June 23rd patch. It was when Robert Gee was explaining why the Necromancer traits for things like Path of Corruption and Dhuumfire say Shroud Skill X instead of the name of the skill, that way as the introduce new Elite specs they don’t have to change the core traits. They could change the “on steal” part but it’s pretty unlikely they would do that since he said they did that because they don’t want to change core traits to suit elite specs.
I recall them announcing how they were handling the change, and yes, it was a way to universalize the traits and descriptions. The same treatment could be done here, which is why I’m not sure what you’re arguing about; none of the traits need mechanical changes for the Deadeye.
Tooltip updates are really easy and are updated often anyways for better clarity. I doubt this issue would be a problem. The only trait “necessary” to change would be Quick Pockets… Thanks for the input nonetheless.
Quick Pockets and the change to Improvisation, which as you stated was a change from from how it works with Steal to suit the Deadeye mechanic.
Granted it is easy to change the tooltips and changes have been made for clarification where it was done badly before however they also have stated they don’t want to have to change core traits in the future to accommodate new elites. I’m not trying to knock your idea but wouldn’t it make more sense to approach it from the stand point of not making them have to change those core traits to accommodate?
Overall, though, my opinion that a sniper type of elite suits Ranger way more than Thief. Snipers in the military have survival training, tracking, camouflage, etc., which really suits the Ranger more than a pickpocket (thief). I’d rather see the new elite bring a new role, like support, that focuses on the shadow magic, like how Druid focuses on nature magic. The thief really doesn’t need a new damage role because people can’t learn to dodge properly. It needs to be able to bring something new to the table that helps the Shadow Arts line because Acrobatics, Deadly Arts and Critical Strikes already is helped by the Daredevil elite.
You’re welcome for the input and thank you for debating me on the points in a respectable fashion.
The big difference is that stealth detection doesn’t prevent Thief from using their defense mechanic — Revealed, on the other hand, completely locks the Thief out if its defenses. I assumed that these facts are obvious.
The main issue here that seems to be being overlooked is the fact that Revealed locks Thief’s defensive mechanic. Imagine how squishy Guardians would be if they are locked out from generating Aegis, or Elementalists locked out from using Water attunement. Even for a short duration of 3 seconds, it will trash the game play of those professions. Due to the lack of other defenses that Thief has, locking stealth via Revealed is poor job in solving a very simple problem.
If the problem is chain stealth, the solution is stealth detection, not Revealed.
If the problem is hard hitting stealth attack, the solution is cooldown not Revealed.
Quick Pockets and the change to Improvisation, which as you stated was a change from from how it works with Steal to suit the Deadeye mechanic.
Granted it is easy to change the tooltips and changes have been made for clarification where it was done badly before however they also have stated they don’t want to have to change core traits in the future to accommodate new elites. I’m not trying to knock your idea but wouldn’t it make more sense to approach it from the stand point of not making them have to change those core traits to accommodate?
Overall, though, my opinion that a sniper type of elite suits Ranger way more than Thief. Snipers in the military have survival training, tracking, camouflage, etc., which really suits the Ranger more than a pickpocket (thief). I’d rather see the new elite bring a new role, like support, that focuses on the shadow magic, like how Druid focuses on nature magic. The thief really doesn’t need a new damage role because people can’t learn to dodge properly. It needs to be able to bring something new to the table that helps the Shadow Arts line because Acrobatics, Deadly Arts and Critical Strikes already is helped by the Daredevil elite.
You’re welcome for the input and thank you for debating me on the points in a respectable fashion.
There’s no needed change to Improvisation. I just mentioned that it will affect the F2 slot for SHF instead of having no effect, which the tech already exists and doesn’t actually change anything on the core thief. The stream refers to making sweeping changes that affect the core thief’s kit; Improvisation affecting the F2 slot/SHF doesn’t change anything about the core thief, and the ICD on quick pockets does literally nothing except prevent an exploitive case with the low cooldown on SHF changing weapon skills, which again, has quite literally zero impact on the core thief or daredevil.
The Deadeye isn’t really a damage spec. The rifle is almost a purely supportive, and both its heal and a utility skill are dedicated to synergize on direct group healing and sustain. The rifle operates as a means to rapidly deplete break bars and provide vulnerability and CC from afar with overall low potential damage. The concept of a sniper/damage dealer honestly shouldn’t exist, especially on any class which has access to stealth. This is why I also made the rifle have synergy with the Revealed mechanic; there is no feasible way to enable the spec to “snipe” a target from stealth to low health.
This is why I’m not really following your reasoning; the changes made don’t actually have any effect on the core profession or any others. I’m not asking for changes to modify the core thief but instead some balance tweaks which only affect the Deadeye.
The big difference is that stealth detection doesn’t prevent Thief from using their defense mechanic — Revealed, on the other hand, completely locks the Thief out if its defenses. I assumed that these facts are obvious.
The main issue here that seems to be being overlooked is the fact that Revealed locks Thief’s defensive mechanic. Imagine how squishy Guardians would be if they are locked out from generating Aegis, or Elementalists locked out from using Water attunement. Even for a short duration of 3 seconds, it will trash the game play of those professions. Due to the lack of other defenses that Thief has, locking stealth via Revealed is poor job in solving a very simple problem.
If the problem is chain stealth, the solution is stealth detection, not Revealed.
If the problem is hard hitting stealth attack, the solution is cooldown not Revealed.
Not really, though. If you can see the thief, it doesn’t matter if he’s stealthed. I can walk up to a detected but not revealed thief and still kill him in one attack. The defensive nature of stealth is only not having complete knowledge of where the thief is. That’s it. The thief also has a wide array of tools to deal with being revealed, such as rapid access to blind, and spammable evades on a plethora of weapon sets. Revealed is like a debuff which would cut healing by 50% like poison, but couldn’t be cleansed which could kill an elementalist if they depend on water solely for sustain and don’t use any other abilities in their kit (L2P problem), or a warrior or reaper using utilities or a thief using BV or LS on S/D which make their attacks unblockable. The answer to this that the guard has is invulns or simply getting out of the way of a combo, which they can do with relative ease. If they don’t, they die, which is also a L2P issue.
The suggestion of being seen but not revealed frankly doesn’t make any sense in the context of improving the thief’s QoL except making stealth attack access available while visible, but seeing as most people don’t even bother with backstab anymore, this doesn’t really change much, and being able to counter the effects of being seen is a much stronger and viable answer to Revealed than just giving stealth attack abilities the ability to land, which would also likely miss before stealth would expire, considering one can dodge roll out of the way of a “detected”-but-stealthed thief’s attack when he gets close.
Not really, though. If you can see the thief, it doesn’t matter if he’s stealthed. I can walk up to a detected but not revealed thief and still kill him in one attack.
Even if that scenario is true and I choose to take seriously, it is still a better alternative from Revealed. If you can one-shot me, then good for you.
The defensive nature of stealth is only not having complete knowledge of where the thief is. That’s it.
Not true. There a whole traitline that are being locked out by Revealed also that improves the defenses and survival of the Thief. You speak as if you have no knowledge about the Shadow Arts trait line.
The thief also has a wide array of tools to deal with being revealed, such as rapid access to blind, and spammable evades on a plethora of weapon sets.
That’s not the point. The point is that stealth is a defensive mechanic. The availability of other options doesn’t make it right to have Revealed to completely lock out one of the Thief’s defensive mechanic. What if Revealed locks out evade? Would that be ok since Thief has access to blind, stealth, etc., etc.? Of course not.
Revealed is like a debuff which would cut healing by 50% like poison, but couldn’t be cleansed which could kill an elementalist if they depend on water solely for sustain and don’t use any other abilities in their kit (L2P problem), or a warrior or reaper using utilities or a thief using BV or LS on S/D which make their attacks unblockable. The answer to this that the guard has is invulns or simply getting out of the way of a combo, which they can do with relative ease. If they don’t, they die, which is also a L2P issue.
You’re not making sense. Revealed is not a L2P issue, it’s a complete lock out of a defensive mechanic due to laziness on the developer’s part. We’re not talking about a Thief tripping on his defenses like one of your examples, this is about a mechanic that denies Thief from using their defensives because the devs cannot be bothered from programming something more comprehensive like stealth detection.
The suggestion of being seen but not revealed frankly doesn’t make any sense in the context of improving the thief’s QoL except making stealth attack access available while visible, but seeing as most people don’t even bother with backstab anymore, this doesn’t really change much, and being able to counter the effects of being seen is a much stronger and viable answer to Revealed than just giving stealth attack abilities the ability to land, which would also likely miss before stealth would expire, considering one can dodge roll out of the way of a “detected”-but-stealthed thief’s attack when he gets close.
How is it not making sense? We’re not talking about the word “revealed”, we’re talking about the mechanic of it. A stealth detection can reveal a Thief, but doesn’t place a bad debuff mechanic on the Thief that prevents them from using their defensive. The Thief can still gain the debuff called “revealed” (or “detected”) for tracking purposes but without the lazy mechanic. The detection range would be short that would allow a Thief to shadowstep out of range as a counterplay. There are more possibilities with stealth detection than with the Revealed mechanic.
I don’t know about you or where you get your information but builds using D/P and D/D still uses backstab as a source of large damage. Speaking of which, unlike Daredevil, your proposed Elite spec has nothing to offer to builds that uses D/P and D/D. Instead, this Elite spec further pigeon hole Thief into using certain weapon that they may not even like. Instead, the Elite spec should open possibilities to the current builds by improving their game play by offering options that previously not available. An Elite shadow arts that centers around shadowsteps would be more effective and useful than offering a Thief another way to do DPS.
Improvisation: ((You can use stolen items twice. One random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal.))
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Improvisation
It says use stolen items twice, not use stolen items twice or reset F2 skill.
Now I understand that could be changed easily. I understand how object oriented programming works. However it says use stolen items twice. If someone was on a F2P account or just simply didn’t buy the new xpac then the change on the tooltip should not be there to accommodate a new elite and I’m fairly certain they won’t change it for a new elite. Nor do I think they are going to add an if statement to check to see if you have the Deadeye elite line selected for it. They already said they didn’t want to do stuff like that and if it has to add something from what it already says it does that probably correlates to what you refer to as a sweeping change.
I’m not trying to argue with you. I’m not saying all of this to be a kitten, I’m pointing out an obstacle so that you’re hard work on this doesn’t go to waste because of that.
Vincent,
Your entire basis for argument is that a trait line is countered by a mechanic.
By this logic, Weakness needs to be nerfed because it reduces the effects of Vigor and thus locks out the class from properly maintaining benefits from the entirety of Acrobatics.
SA has high stealth synergy. Again, I’m not disagreeing with you that giving other professions availability to reveal the thief is a good idea. I’m disagreeing with your statements which are claiming revealed in it of itself is a bad mechanic. Not having revealed in general, but instead, only detection, would result in massive balance concerns for SA regarding its defenses and offensive capabilities being overpowered. Your proposal makes little sense in the context of the class itself and only gains validity when examining extra power acquired by other classes. The Deadeye is intended not to be a direct answer to being revealed by other professions, but instead provide an answer to being revealed by other professions. Making the claim that Sic ’Em is overpowered is ridiculous. The claim that revealed needs to be changed entirely because of a few overpowered skills and abilities is inherently flawed and should be targeted towards those few abilities.
As far as your claims about me not playing them or being familiar with the thief, I play D/D and have since release of this game. I have been around when Revealed wasn’t here. I am blatantly admitting that I was overpowered when the mechanic didn’t exist.
As far as synergy with MH dagger goes, you’re not reading the spec in detail, but are whining about the revealed mechanic being used because you do not like it. I explicitly created traits for direct synergy with SA which effectively nullify the self-inflicted revealed debuff. Via Impossible Escape, the Deadeye enables some of the single most powerful synergy that has ever existed with MH dagger. It literally offers the ability to backstab twice consecutively, completely skipping Revealed altogether. This spec has been approved and critically acclaimed by MH dagger players. You’re not reading the details and are condemning the entire idea because it utilizes a mechanic which you do not like. I’m sorry you do not like the revealed mechanic, but it is a necessary addition to the game, and enabling the mechanic to have more depth and give the thief as a profession a less-binary role in terms of performance in and out of stealth, while effectively reducing the potential intent by many players to even take or use revealing abilities to begin with. You slot massive boon stripping and corruption to deal with an ele; you slot reveal effects to deal with a stealth-oriented thief. Again, I’m not vouching for accessibility on revealed, but that the mechanic, if properly given means to give the thief a fair chance in combat during this period, is one which can have a positive effect on the game as a whole.
All elite specs will feature a weapon. I built this one with the rifle because it is the most-requested ES weapon by thieves. I also did it to give the thief a support weapon and potential support role. I wanted to generate mass appeal and give the thief a way to change its style of play, and not simply buff it, which is what elites are intended to do. Revealed-oriented play is something the thief does not have access to doing right now – you say so yourself that the thief is too easily shut down by it – so claiming that this pigeon-holes the thief is ridiculous, especially since this build surrenders stolen items and one if its best teleports to gain initiative and a self-reveal effect. As for the Deadeye doing the same thing as the core thief and Daredevil, via “another way to do DPS,” you’re simply mistaken. Everything about the specialization is a DPS loss compared to Daredevil or what core thief can do. Everything. There is quite literally zero reason to take this spec if DPS is desired. Absolutely none. Nada. It’s been balanced to deal sub-optimal DPS. That’s the entire point. And that’s why it’s something new. Frankly, at this point, I’m convinced you have not read or even thought about the details of this proposal. If you wish to make more comments on this topic, please read up on it and give it some thought. It’s because of your effective ignorance to the options I’ve put into this spec to enable such play opportunities that I believe your feedback has not been worth it so far.
A spec featuring tons of teleports like you propose is better left for another thread. And frankly, it better have a compromise as to why it effectively just gives MH sword more of what it offers already or completely replaces the need to use it. Actually, most of the discussion about revealed itself and your proposed replacement mechanic is completely off-topic from this proposal. I understand you may not like the revealed mechanic, or the spec concept itself, but I am designing this specialization on existing game systems, seeing as I have no authority to suggest major overhauls to the way stealth itself is handled, and frankly, very few players have qualms with revealed itself (and often the players who do are the ones which propose asinine buff suggestions), but rather have problems with the mechanic being applied by other professions so readily.
Please, do read the spec. Make some builds, and explain why you think certain aspects are either too weak or not strong enough or simply conceptually not sufficient within the context of the class or current game scenario based on what you make and the trait/skill interactions at hand. If you wish to campaign a change to the revealed mechanic, post a new thread on that, and let that discussion ensue.
Improvisation: ((You can use stolen items twice. One random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal.))
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Improvisation
It says use stolen items twice, not use stolen items twice or reset F2 skill.
Now I understand that could be changed easily. I understand how object oriented programming works. However it says use stolen items twice. If someone was on a F2P account or just simply didn’t buy the new xpac then the change on the tooltip should not be there to accommodate a new elite and I’m fairly certain they won’t change it for a new elite. Nor do I think they are going to add an if statement to check to see if you have the Deadeye elite line selected for it. They already said they didn’t want to do stuff like that and if it has to add something from what it already says it does that probably correlates to what you refer to as a sweeping change.
I’m not trying to argue with you. I’m not saying all of this to be a kitten, I’m pointing out an obstacle so that you’re hard work on this doesn’t go to waste because of that.
I understand and appreciate the concern. Ultimately the hard work has already been done. The entire specialization hinges on the mechanic, and frankly, would need to be entirely redone.
I haven’t been able to locate where it was said they do not wish to rename or adjust traits in the core kit to reflect those of the elite specializations. I did some digging in a few videos, and while I didn’t watch them in full, I did a considerable amount of skipping around and found no such declaration. Honestly, if they’re unwilling to make a tooltip adjustment, they’re clearly unwilling to take into account community feedback, which defeats the purpose of this whole initiative. I can only be optimistic, and as mentioned, this is only inspiration, not to expect ANet to port this whole thing as the next elite. A single if statement is quite literally three to five lines in this case per conflicting trait, which is just string substitution. Having personally worked in some game engines, this is a REALLY simple thing to do if the feature is supported (which we know it is in GW2’s engine due to dynamic damage/text updating of tooltips). I don’t mean to dismiss your argument, out of respect for what you’re mentioning, but I really don’t think this is a valid concern in regards to what’s necessary for upkeep of the profession or subsequent elite specs in general.
I actually see it quite concerning if they’re not going to make tooltip adjustments for classes such as the mesmer, however, as a lot of wiggle room for the class hinges on their shatters.
As far as sweeping changes go, I was thinking more along the lines of changing vanilla traits’ functionalities to be cohesive for the sake of an elite. I might make another thread or PM some ANet folks to clarify this, as this would be very important to mention for the sake of the ES-suggesting community as a whole, since if tooltip updates are not possible to reflect profession mechanic changes, then most elite spec suggestions will be invalidated.
Vincent,
Your entire basis for argument is that a trait line is countered by a mechanic.
By this logic, Weakness needs to be nerfed because it reduces the effects of Vigor and thus locks out the class from properly maintaining benefits from the entirety of Acrobatics.
That’s flawed and you know it. Revealed is self-inflicted and totally locks out a defense mechanic. Weakness doesn’t prevent you from dodging, so your counter argument is a little silly.
SA has high stealth synergy. Again, I’m not disagreeing with you that giving other professions availability to reveal the thief is a good idea.
Yes I don’t mind that at all as long as the mechanic is a stealth detection and not stealth lock down.
I’m disagreeing with your statements which are claiming revealed in it of itself is a bad mechanic. Not having revealed in general, but instead, only detection, would result in massive balance concerns for SA regarding its defenses and offensive capabilities being overpowered.
I disagree and you have yet to illustrate why SA is “overpowered” that it requires a mechanic that can totally lock down the entire trait line and one of the Thief’s defense mechanic.
Your proposal makes little sense in the context of the class itself and only gains validity when examining extra power acquired by other classes. The Deadeye is intended not to be a direct answer to being revealed by other professions, but instead provide an answer to being revealed by other professions. Making the claim that Sic ’Em is overpowered is ridiculous. The claim that revealed needs to be changed entirely because of a few overpowered skills and abilities is inherently flawed and should be targeted towards those few abilities.
First of all, Deadeye is not a “direct answer to being revealed” because it purposely revealed the Thief.
“Gain stealth for the duration of the dash and replenish initiative, and then become revealed for a duration based on your total initiative. "
This Elite spec doesn’t even require other professions to reveal it because it can do it all by itself.
Second, Sic ‘Em can be easily changed to stealth detection that not only detects a single target, but it’s an AoE party wide effect that is more useful than what it currently is.
As far as your claims about me not playing them or being familiar with the thief, I play D/D and have since release of this game. I have been around when Revealed wasn’t here. I am blatantly admitting that I was overpowered when the mechanic didn’t exist.
You’re the one who made the claim that backstab is no longer being used, I’m simply pointing out that D/x build uses it frequently because they have no other big hitter in their weapon set. For you to make such claim shows that you either don’t know Thief or you don’t play D/x because everyone who plays D/x knows this.
FYI, Revealed existed on release. There was never a time after release when Revealed doesn’t exist. It was added as a last minute “fix” before release due to QQs during the beta weekends. The QQs were never substantiated but they’ve kept the lazy fix.
So if you were playing since release, then there’s no way you could’ve experienced playing Thief without Revealed since that only happened pre-release during the beta weekends. I’m sorry but I call B.S. here.
And additional FYI, it wasn’t overpowered because those who chain CnD wastes their initiative really fast and can do nothing else after 2 CnDs. The QQs stems out from CnD→BS chain, but the solution to that is not Revealed but a cooldown on backstab (and all other stealth attacks).
As far as synergy with MH dagger goes, you’re not reading the spec in detail, but are whining about the revealed mechanic being used because you do not like it. I explicitly created traits for direct synergy with SA which effectively nullify the self-inflicted revealed debuff. Via Impossible Escape, the Deadeye enables some of the single most powerful synergy that has ever existed with MH dagger. It literally offers the ability to backstab twice consecutively, completely skipping Revealed altogether. This spec has been approved and critically acclaimed by MH dagger players. You’re not reading the details and are condemning the entire idea because it utilizes a mechanic which you do not like.
What are you talking about? If I backstab and CnD, I won’t go in stealth instead it will remove Revealed, which means I have to CnD again to go in stealth. Do you even realize how absurd that is? Sure that trait might be good for D/P who can leap through smoke and remove the Revealed on the first leap, but that again is a pigeon hole that forces build that uses this Elite to use D/P because it would suck for D/D. On top of that, another pigeon hole trait is Grit, where it’s not even a choice and it’s an obvious pick because the Thief will be self-inflicting Revealed for a very long time — 20s max.
Stealth is the Thief’s profession mechanic — NOT Revealed.
This Elite spec is totally abandoning the Stealth mechanic and treating Revealed as if the mechanic that Thief should have had from the very beginning. This Elite spec not only breaks the Thief profession in terms of flavor by replacing the stealth mechanic with Revealed, but this Elite spec is more appropriately given to Eng or Warrior.
I’m sorry you do not like the revealed mechanic, but it is a necessary addition to the game, and enabling the mechanic to have more depth and give the thief as a profession a less-binary role in terms of performance in and out of stealth, while effectively reducing the potential intent by many players to even take or use revealing abilities to begin with. You slot massive boon stripping and corruption to deal with an ele; you slot reveal effects to deal with a stealth-oriented thief. Again, I’m not vouching for accessibility on revealed, but that the mechanic, if properly given means to give the thief a fair chance in combat during this period, is one which can have a positive effect on the game as a whole.
One thing is certain, this Elite spec is not for Thief. Thief by description is about stealth and deception and “expert in Shadow Arts” (wiki) — NOT Revealed. This Elite spec has nothing like that to offer.
All elite specs will feature a weapon. I built this one with the rifle because it is the most-requested ES weapon by thieves. I also did it to give the thief a support weapon and potential support role. I wanted to generate mass appeal and give the thief a way to change its style of play, and not simply buff it, which is what elites are intended to do.
To be honest, the Rifle skills are fine. It needs some testing and probably some tweaking but it’s good for now.
Revealed-oriented play is something the thief does not have access to doing right now – you say so yourself that the thief is too easily shut down by it – so claiming that this pigeon-holes the thief is ridiculous, especially since this build surrenders stolen items and one if its best teleports to gain initiative and a self-reveal effect. As for the Deadeye doing the same thing as the core thief and Daredevil, via “another way to do DPS,” you’re simply mistaken. Everything about the specialization is a DPS loss compared to Daredevil or what core thief can do. Everything. There is quite literally zero reason to take this spec if DPS is desired. Absolutely none. Nada. It’s been balanced to deal sub-optimal DPS. That’s the entire point. And that’s why it’s something new. Frankly, at this point, I’m convinced you have not read or even thought about the details of this proposal. If you wish to make more comments on this topic, please read up on it and give it some thought. It’s because of your effective ignorance to the options I’ve put into this spec to enable such play opportunities that I believe your feedback has not been worth it so far.
I’ve read it several times and I’m simply talking about the main mechanic it revolves around first, since the other stuff are built around that mechanic – Revealed. Since the whole spec hinges around Revealed, and Revealed should not be a Thief acceptable mechanic, this whole spec falls apart. This is why we’re discussing the legitimacy of Revealed as an acceptable mechanic when it is a complete opposite to what Thief is all about — stealth, deception and expert in Shadow Arts. In a sense, I’m against the fact that this Elite will redefine the Thief profession to something else other than what it really is.
A spec featuring tons of teleports like you propose is better left for another thread. And frankly, it better have a compromise as to why it effectively just gives MH sword more of what it offers already or completely replaces the need to use it. Actually, most of the discussion about revealed itself and your proposed replacement mechanic is completely off-topic from this proposal.
I’m not making a counter proposal rather I’m simply using it as an example to compare which spec would be more appropriate to the Thief profession. So no, it was not off topic since I have no intention to talk about it.
I understand you may not like the revealed mechanic, or the spec concept itself, but I am designing this specialization on existing game systems, seeing as I have no authority to suggest major overhauls to the way stealth itself is handled, and frankly, very few players have qualms with revealed itself (and often the players who do are the ones which propose asinine buff suggestions), but rather have problems with the mechanic being applied by other professions so readily.
All I’ve been saying is that, this is not the right direction to take the Thief profession. Accepting Revealed as a Thief mechanic is asinine in itself because Revealed does not define Thief since Thief, again, is about stealth, deception and expert in Shadow Arts. Even the Daredevil spec is a move away from what Thief is all about and hopefully Mr. MO, as the new director, will realize that the professions are being taken to all the wrong direction that hopefully he will stop the insanity and start bringing back some senses to the professions.
Thief could have been a stealth sniper or an Arcane Thief, but not Daredevil and definitely not Deadeye as is.
Please, do read the spec. Make some builds, and explain why you think certain aspects are either too weak or not strong enough or simply conceptually not sufficient within the context of the class or current game scenario based on what you make and the trait/skill interactions at hand. If you wish to campaign a change to the revealed mechanic, post a new thread on that, and let that discussion ensue.
I’ve already given you an example, D/D. Deadeye doesn’t work with this weapon set. Just looking at the Tier 1 traits…there’s nothing there for D/D. At least with Daredevil, I have a choice between Havoc and Weakening — Deadeye has nothing to offer unless I pigeon hole myself and abandon D/D for Rifle. That’s just one example.
Honestly, if they’re unwilling to make a tooltip adjustment, they’re clearly unwilling to take into account community feedback, which defeats the purpose of this whole initiative. I can only be optimistic, and as mentioned, this is only inspiration, not to expect ANet to port this whole thing as the next elite. A single if statement is quite literally three to five lines in this case per conflicting trait, which is just string substitution. Having personally worked in some game engines, this is a REALLY simple thing to do if the feature is supported (which we know it is in GW2’s engine due to dynamic damage/text updating of tooltips). I don’t mean to dismiss your argument, out of respect for what you’re mentioning, but I really don’t think this is a valid concern in regards to what’s necessary for upkeep of the profession or subsequent elite specs in general.
I actually see it quite concerning if they’re not going to make tooltip adjustments for classes such as the mesmer, however, as a lot of wiggle room for the class hinges on their shatters.As far as sweeping changes go, I was thinking more along the lines of changing vanilla traits’ functionalities to be cohesive for the sake of an elite.
Changing the functionality of Improvisation is exactly what I have bolded from your statement. Just because the effect effects the same skill slot doesn’t make it not a change, it is still a change to the functionality to be cohesive for the sake of an elite.
I have worked in game development myself as well and I understand how incredibly easy it is to make that happen but just because it is easy to do doesn’t mean they will do it or want to do it.
Either way, you’re having fun with your thing and I have given you feedback on it. You seem to be intent on seeing it your way so we will just have to agree to disagree and go on about our day.
Vincent,
Revealed locks out only one defense mechanism, stealth, and hard-counters one trait line option, SA-built-stealth (however revealed does absolutely nothing to affect venomshare, a major contender for this trait line). It doesn’t do anything about the other defenses. It is not a be-all-end-all “you lose defenses” debuff. Period. End of story. Anyone dying solely because of SA not giving them passive defenses while in stealth is a bad player. I understand it weakens the thief and counters the trait line when specced a certain way. But again, so does boon corruption to arcane elementalists, and unblockable effects to a guardian, which you also completely ignored. These kinds of effects exist for every class and pretending they do not is ridiculous.
Weakness also hard-counters Acrobatics, since the entirety of Acrobatics at its core is effectively about increased dodges via vigor and increasing Vigor’s potency. Having weakness doesn’t mean much still for Acrobatics, because it can still use stealth as a defensive mechanism, or simply wait out the duration via other defenses. In likeness, a stealth-built thief can simply Shadowstep away from combat and re-engage once a revealed debuff if applied by another player expires.
SA would be overpowered without Revealed. SE would be a passive cure 1 condition every 3s – best in the game; Hidden Thief is permanent 50% move speed – best in the game; RoS would be a permanent 25% reduction in damage stackable with protection – best mitigation in the game; Rejuv would be permanent passive healing bordering on Healing Signet and an effective 25% cooldown reduction to all weapon skills. Alternative, BP + HS spam would be the fastest blind applicator in the game to a point where even standing near a smoke field by a thief would be dangerous out of low counterplay.
You claim the Deadeye doesn’t provide an answer to being revealed. So what you’re saying is defensive stat increases, teleport skills, and long-ranged DPS to maintain pressure from a distance are not good things to have while revealed? You mean these concepts which have been explicitly not given to the thief and historically removed on the sole basis that they are so strong because of the thief’s core kit having too much synergy with these mechanics isn’t a basis for arguing that the Deadeye offers solid compensation for being revealed? I’m sorry, but that claim is foolish. The intent is to allow the profession to be able to reveal itself considering SHF only lasts as long as the Revealed debuff and is only accessible while revealed. This is done because the strength of even remotely good 1200 ranged damage is so powerful with the thief’s core kit, and that there are potentially devastating consequences to balance if left to working with stealth.
Also, no, stealth is not the thief’s profession mechanic. Steal and initiative are. Arguing that stealth must be the feature of an elite spec because the class description of the core spec says so is also invalid. If going by profession descriptions, then warriors should be the fastest class in the game, since it states that the warrior relies on speed. The thief mentions this nowhere, so why are we supposed to be fast? The Elementalist states that it does “massive damage in a single attack” as compensation for its low durability. Why then is the ele the tankiest profession in the game, and why do we hit harder per attack than ele? See, profession descriptions are borked, and game design goals change. Arguing that this idea isn’t flavorful because it plays with counterpart mechanics to stealth, which thieves have ready access to, is like saying we need to buff elementalist DPH to be the best in the game and make warriors by far the fastest profession. That’s silly and you know it.
Yes, the specialization is designed to self-inflict Revealed for those building around SHF. Just because you have skills doesn’t mean they’re always useful all the time. The mesmer only gains benefits from performing certain shatters based on its build and as the opportunity rises within combat. I’m not sure how you play thief, but clearly the intent and style of the Deadeye – a committal-based approach to decisions with proper tools to act on commitments – is going over your head by design concept. Your suggestion of a teleport-oriented specialization is demonstrative of this lack of understanding on the fundamental level; the Deadeye is not intended to promote conventional thief style play of low-commitment decisions, such as how the Reaper fundamentally changes the way necromancers approach combat.
The Daredevil has just as little stealth play within the specialization (actually it has objectively less) than the Deadeye. The mesmer has had access to the mechanic since beta, and since release, so have rangers and engineers. Just because they are “experts at stealth” does not mean that everything about the profession must be oriented around stealth and feature only using stealth. Further, intermittent revealed access can only be gained through making an attack from stealth; I.E., the spec still depends on it and can benefit from it at any moment it has the revealed effect, but may choose not to. Revealed is the counterpart of invisibility via stealth, and arguing that the counterpart is not part of the whole of stealth mechanic is simply incorrect; otherwise, revealed wouldn’t exist and wouldn’t at first have been only acquirable through making an attack from stealth.
CnD with SA has a 100% stealth uptime. Also, at release, Reveal only was applied when making a stealth attack, NOT attacking from stealth. At release, D/D was so common because a SA build could infinitely chain CnD (gaining the benefits of Infusion of Shadow which have now been merged to Rejuv) without ever needing to be revealed. This is literally what you’re proposing, because with this idea, a thief could still permanently chain CnD for infinite stealth, because initiative regeneration continues while stealthed. This is a strictly bad idea, and frankly, almost demonstrates your lack of knowledge about the kit as it is. Backstab is also not commonly used unless a foe is being very predictable. Shadow Shot does more damage than a front-facing backstab, and I’ve had extensive theory discussions about the skill as opposed to Shadow Shot in the past. Jana understands that in the context where CS isn’t used, Shadow Shot is always better to use while paired with mug for a +1 in terms of damage safety and consistency and support effects. Really, backstab isn’t that great, and now that MH dagger has been buffed, the aftercast delay on backstab versus the damage on SS make burst engage and DPS favor Shadow Shot use even more.
Comments about Impossible Escape being useless are also invalid. DE/SA with Hidden Thief would enable a Charge to have its Revealed cured by Hidden thief, and then CnD would then stealth. Frankly, DE/SA enables more consistent sustain for stealth weaving builds through bulk initiative restoration than anything else right now. The only loss is builds which camp stealth, in which case, it’s not advisable to be using a specialization option focused on revealed if one never plans to become revealed. This isn’t meant to be power creep or solve all the problems of the core profession like DD did, but provide options to promote other builds. Don’t like being revealed? Then don’t play Deadeye. It’s that simple. Because this mechanic is so tied to the thief, and because it is simply a hunter role featuring high mobility and synergy with stealth, it is not suitable for the ranger (nature magic/pet use/survival) or the engineer (technologically assisted), since nothing else about the kit borrows any synergy or flavor from either professions.
You again clearly demonstrate you have not put forth the effort to work with this design, because you’d have realized there is no pigeon-holing anything into the Grit trait because it’s a minor trait. It comes with the Deadeye as a non-option. You strictly just get bonus toughness while revealed for being a Deadeye. Meaning you don’t need to feel pigeon-holed, and frankly, this acts as a means to take damage reduction to mirror that of the effects from RoS while being more forgiving to glassier builds and less overpowered to tanky/troll builds due to format-specific balance concerns. Further, you advocate so heavily for SA, yet this is the trait line with the fewest viable options within builds, and most powerful, pigeon-hole oriented abilities on core thief due to high dependencies of condition cleansing via SE and sustain on Rejuv paired with crappy alternative options unless building venomshare.
Quick Reflexes is there for D/D and similar builds. Again, you seem to have not actually cared to try to look into this proposal and work with it. Seeing as every few seconds you’ll be using backstab as primary damage because D/D lacks Shadow Shot and thus gains the revealed debuff, it gives D/D an extra dodge for free every 10s, gives it super speed to catch fleeing foes (since D/D lacks strong re-engage/chase like D/P, again via Shadow Shot), and refunds endurance, which can be stacked with the effects from Wild Strike, making D/D get more evades on top of Death Blossom’s evasion potential, while also cutting down on initiative use spent on performing skills like Death Blossom and CnD which over time wear down on initiative.
You also seem insistent that every thief must engage with Stygian Charge. There are many teleport opportunities available to have SC work as a mid-combat skill to keep the thief going, especially again if Impossible Escape is used, which would give a thief substantial initiative resources to keep fighting and not need to camp stealth waiting for initiative restoration.
There are traits for every weapon and every build. They might not be super-strong-must-haves, but that’s part of making a balanced specialization. It’s a specialization; it’s not a must-have. You’re confusing this with buffs to the class you’d like to see rather than giving the thief new options and methods to deal with some of the new styles which have opened up for other professions which have made the thief indirectly weak, such as the Dragonhunter.
Your protest of Revealed not being good for the thief as a mechanic does not belong in this thread, and frankly, is your only valid basis for argument on the elite spec. If you have no other things to say aside from the fact that you dislike the Revealed effect and as a consequence disagree with the proposal on that basis, I strongly suggest you stop posting in this thread as our discussion is leaving unfriendly walls of text and is deviating away from the core discussion of the specialization other than a few comments about synergy among certain weapons. Further, if you wish to discuss synergy or believe there is a flaw in synergy or design of the profession as systems exist within the game, simply post on that subject, and we can discuss the issue as an isolated topic.
Honestly, if they’re unwilling to make a tooltip adjustment, they’re clearly unwilling to take into account community feedback, which defeats the purpose of this whole initiative. I can only be optimistic, and as mentioned, this is only inspiration, not to expect ANet to port this whole thing as the next elite. A single if statement is quite literally three to five lines in this case per conflicting trait, which is just string substitution. Having personally worked in some game engines, this is a REALLY simple thing to do if the feature is supported (which we know it is in GW2’s engine due to dynamic damage/text updating of tooltips). I don’t mean to dismiss your argument, out of respect for what you’re mentioning, but I really don’t think this is a valid concern in regards to what’s necessary for upkeep of the profession or subsequent elite specs in general.
I actually see it quite concerning if they’re not going to make tooltip adjustments for classes such as the mesmer, however, as a lot of wiggle room for the class hinges on their shatters.As far as sweeping changes go, I was thinking more along the lines of changing vanilla traits’ functionalities to be cohesive for the sake of an elite.
Changing the functionality of Improvisation is exactly what I have bolded from your statement. Just because the effect effects the same skill slot doesn’t make it not a change, it is still a change to the functionality to be cohesive for the sake of an elite.
I have worked in game development myself as well and I understand how incredibly easy it is to make that happen but just because it is easy to do doesn’t mean they will do it or want to do it.
Either way, you’re having fun with your thing and I have given you feedback on it. You seem to be intent on seeing it your way so we will just have to agree to disagree and go on about our day.
Improvisation’s functionality isn’t being changed to the client, which is where the confusion begins and likely why ANet doesn’t want to make such changes. Just the wording would be set to change. It will reset the cooldown on F2 (Or from core thief’s perspective “Use Stolen Item,” just as it does now. A functional change would be making Improvisation grant cooldown reduction/double-casting on skills F2 and (specialization-specific F3 skill).
It’s really just a matter of whether or not they would be willing to make the adjustment to tooltips, which I haven’t been able to locate where they explicitly stated they would no longer make tooltip adjustments or mechanics changes with elite specs that would require future tooltip adjustments. I am willing to make adjustments, however the specialization is so entrenched in these systems that I don’t believe changing them would be realistic within the confines of the specialization concept. I appreciate the concern, and if you have any ideas on how to decouple the mechanics while disabling steal as a mechanic due to balance issues and flavor reasons, I’ll gladly consider them.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
You people are writing too much. This thread will reach a critical mass and start sucking others in. ^^
Venom Aura in SA is a whole different topic on itself because it should be in Deadly Arts. So I won’t further address VA.
And if you can’t tell the difference between mechanic lock (Revealed) and boon corruption, or mechanic lock and unblockable, then I guess we finally figure out why you’re accepting Revealed with open arms — you simply don’t know the difference. Boon corruptions are not self-inflicted nor it prevents Ele from using boons nor it automatically corrupts all boons they cast afterwards. Unblockable doesn’t prevent Guardians from blocking. They may not successfully block the unblockable skill, but they can still block everything else. The equivalent of Revealed is locking Water Attunement or locking Virtue of Resolve or Courage for a duration. I was not pretending they don’t exist, you’re simply comparing apple to a potato. If you still can’t comprehend the difference, then we are at a loss.
Again, Weakness is not the same as Revealed no matter how much you want them to be. Weakness doesn’t lock out dodges for 3 seconds. That in itself should debunk your silly argument.
SA would be overpowered without Revealed. SE would be a passive cure 1 condition every 3s – best in the game; Hidden Thief is permanent 50% move speed – best in the game; RoS would be a permanent 25% reduction in damage stackable with protection – best mitigation in the game; Rejuv would be permanent passive healing bordering on Healing Signet and an effective 25% cooldown reduction to all weapon skills. Alternative, BP + HS spam would be the fastest blind applicator in the game to a point where even standing near a smoke field by a thief would be dangerous out of low counterplay.
How is it overpowered when the Thief cannot attack while having all these effects? That as soon as they attack, all these effects ends? If the Thief can attack in conjunction with these effects, like what Warriors, Revenant, and Guardians can do right now, then yeah, it’s OP. Revealed is an unnecessary and lazy fix that needs to go away.
You claim the Deadeye doesn’t provide an answer to being revealed. So what you’re saying is defensive stat increases, teleport skills, and long-ranged DPS to maintain pressure from a distance are not good things to have while revealed?
No. I can do all that with my current P/P build but without the long range. The long-range and defensive stats are not even in synergy because the Thief will only need defensive stats while in melee range because distance is one of their defenses (shadowstep). So having both long-range and defensive stats is redundant and wasteful. This “answer” is not even a good counter play because it triggers not as a counter to another profession’s skill (i.e. Sic ’Em) but an answer to a self-inflicted Revealed. The whole premise around this “answer” to Revealed is all going to a wrong direction. The answer to Revealed is to rid of it from the game.
You mean these concepts which have been explicitly not given to the thief and historically removed on the sole basis that they are so strong because of the thief’s core kit having too much synergy with these mechanics isn’t a basis for arguing that the Deadeye offers solid compensation for being revealed? I’m sorry, but that claim is foolish. The intent is to allow the profession to be able to reveal itself considering SHF only lasts as long as the Revealed debuff and is only accessible while revealed. This is done because the strength of even remotely good 1200 ranged damage is so powerful with the thief’s core kit, and that there are potentially devastating consequences to balance if left to working with stealth.
Yeah good concept, but not for Thief. If you are having a conflict about balance when used with stealth, then this Elite spec is not a good fit for Thief because Thief is an expert in Shadow Arts and not Revealed. The main problem here is that, this concept was made so unbalanced that it is forced to accept the existence of Revealed to balance it out. Also, it seems that you forget that the Thief used to have 1200 range weapon and that never raise any balance issue other than the fact that ArenaNet wanted to normalize their weapon types by giving them specific range. The reduction of range from shortbow and pistol placed the Thief in a position of extreme weakeness because the range of those weapons were never an issue nor a balance problem.
Also, no, stealth is not the thief’s profession mechanic. Steal and initiative are.
There’s lies the problem. Here’s a quote from the official wiki.
Thieves are expert in the shadow arts.
“Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air…”
Denying these facts is a clear evidence that you don’t know Thief nor you’re an advocate in saving the integrity of the Thief profession. You just want some concept to be implemented at what ever cost, even to a point of changing the Thief profession to the core and destroying the profession in the process.
Arguing that stealth must be the feature of an elite spec because the class description of the core spec says so is also invalid.
Invalid? That is a ridiculous claim. If ArenaNet redefines the Thief and rename it to a Rogue, then I would have agreed with you. But the fact that they choose to name it Thief and give the profession the identity of someone who hides in shadows and steals, then any spec designs that doesn’t implement those mechanic is a move away from the core of the profession.
If going by profession descriptions, then warriors should be the fastest class in the game, since it states that the warrior relies on speed. The thief mentions this nowhere, so why are we supposed to be fast?
Oh please, your appeal to ignorance is neuseating. Warrior is not an expert on speed just as Thief is an expert in shadow arts. Thief is not faster than Warrior they have a lot of access to speedboost (see Warhorn and banner skills). The diffence is Thieves has access to displacement and displacement is not speed.
The Elementalist states that it does “massive damage in a single attack” as compensation for its low durability. Why then is the ele the tankiest profession in the game, and why do we hit harder per attack than ele? See, profession descriptions are borked, and game design goals change.
Dealing massive damage in a single attack doesn’t mean that it is the highest damage dealing attack. Again, neuseating appeal to ignorance.
Arguing that this idea isn’t flavorful because it plays with counterpart mechanics to stealth, which thieves have ready access to, is like saying we need to buff elementalist DPH to be the best in the game and make warriors by far the fastest profession. That’s silly and you know it.
Your examples are the silly one here. You’re trying to make a point based on a weak premise that those examples are even close to similar on what the Thief has. No where in Warrior’s description that is states the they are an expert on speed. Nor any where in Elementalist’s description that it states that they are an expert in dealing massive damage. In contrast, Thie is an “expert in stealth and surprise” and “expert in shadow arts” (wiki)
So please stop making silly claims and stop comparing apples to potatoes.
If you have no other things to say aside from the fact that you dislike the Revealed effect and as a consequence disagree with the proposal on that basis, I strongly suggest you stop posting in this thread as our discussion is leaving unfriendly walls of text and is deviating away from the core discussion of the specialization other than a few comments about synergy among certain weapons.
That’s already my intention and kudos to your hard work on putting this together but I hope that no dev will listen to any proposition that was designed around Revealed and hoping that they realize that Revealed is kitten to the game that needs to be surgically taken out.
With some of the recent changes such as adjustments to Lead Attacks and other game-wide balancing efforts made, I will be updating this topic in the near future when I have more time. There are a few immediate concerns without delving too deep:
LA providing condition damage might require some adjustments ti vuln or poison stack application.
Initiative adjustment through the mechanics of LA may require some tuning for abilities focused on restoration and constant depletion of initiative, as the changes to LA provoke some balance concerns from Wicked Abandon yielding what is almost a permanently maintainable ~45% damage bonus.
I’ve had a bit of time to look in-depth at the Deadeye, now.
Incoming changes
I intend to adjust and tweak wording to cause any mobility effect such as Shadowstep to break stealth while using Stakeout. Permanent stealth is fine, but must have absolutely no mobility, and Shadowstep would just enable frustrating or downright trolly play. Further, I need to create a mechanism to prevent a Deadeye from taking down keep/tower lords in WvW without ever being revealed by repeatedly applying Noxious Fumes and not taking aggro while the lord dies.
Power Deadeye
There’s not really an easy way to perfectly balance Wicked Abandon at the moment with a small numbers tweak. I’m going to revist the skill coefficients in the next few days for the entire kit to determine how these tweaks will interact with the new Lead Attacks and make the call to adjust either skill coefficients or WA itself. I’ll also be comparing the core thief trait lines and how they interact with the skills to make sure nothing really funky happens.
Reducing base coefficients normalizes the kit to work with Trickery/LA in a more cohesive fashion without making the damage output when stacking modifiers excessive, however this could create a false-dependency for Trickery, which is something I really want to avoid.
Reducing the damage increase on Wicked Abandon balances it in line with pre-LA change Trickery/core thief while being used, but subsequently reduces incentive to use the skill at all.
Condition Deadeye
The condition damage bump to LA definitely changes the state of balance on the condi variant of the build, especially considering the damage output potential on Noxious Fumes when building to stack poison damage. Since 15% isn’t overly-substantial, I can’t make a reduction of a stack of applied poison and be done with it, as this is a disproportionate nerf. I’m looking to reduce the applied poison of Noxious Fumes by one stack, but compromise with increased bleeding and/or vulnerability stacks elsewhere.
The proposal is shelved indefinitely in light of the 7/26 changes; I’ve taken a blatant disinterest in the game due to them, and I am not motivated enough to adjust the proposal. With changes to stealth attacks, some aspects of the Deadeye’s design are no longer functional to keep all core traitlines functional/good picks.
what i don’t see on this is Ricochet trait anywhere.. gaining rifles is pointless without it.
make rifles for thief Assult Rifle with full auto, and ricochet as a trait
what i don’t see on this is Ricochet trait anywhere.. gaining rifles is pointless without it.
Not to sound like a prude but it’s only pointless to not have the trait if the Deadeye was designed to feature AoE play with the rifle. It isn’t, so it’s not really pointless considering the whole point of this rifle is control rather than damage, because damage on the rifle would be unfun to play against.
If the trait should come back, it should replace Ankle Shots. Pistol’s damage is fine if not too bursty since the buffs, but the AoE nature would probably break this proposal if it applied to rifles despite the synergy. I’m not going to run numbers and simulate encounters like before to affirm or deny this claim, though, because at this point I can’t be bothered; this entire proposal is no longer really valid given the changes to core thief as it is.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
Welp with the new specs announced, have fun with your snipers, folks. I tried. Looks like the only thing that made it through was the name lol.
I hope you have not thought all this time that Anet would even consider this, if they even looked at it at all.
Just because you had a lot of ideas did not make any of them good.
On a conceptual level it was actually pretty flawed as long range fighters/snipers like to stay hidden rather than revealed, except they use distance rather than smoke or whatever.
Just wait and see what its like at the free weekend, or dont /shrug.
Perhaps you misunderstand this idea was to not be a sniper at all by proposing the antithesis of it. The goal was mobility and kiting within the confines of a combat and allowing every single trait and weapon setup to have viability and possible synergy while bolstering new ways to play.
You mustn’t have read the OP at all. I said from the getgo I didn’t expect anything to make it. That said, there are a number of huge similarities between some traits and skills, some of which are near-copies exactly, even similar in name.
That said, given the reveal (ha) to be quite honest, if I had any influence at all in ANet’s decision-making process to lead to what they’re pushing out, I now formally regret it with what has been shown.
The upcoming Deadeye ignores all warnings that come with stealth-heavy ranged burst play which have repeatedly been stated by the thief and competitive communities. The kit is ramshackle and lacks synergy while being extremely one-trick-ish. The idea is strictly bad and will never be balanced or more importantly, fun to play as and/or against.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
The Deadeye they showed it’s pretty much exactly what I wanted/expected.
To me is pointless to have thief get rifles and not bring back ricochet, it would be a MAJOR slap in the face, and your right they should have brought it back by replacing ankle shot with it, because lets face it ankle shot is weak and useless, and that being Anets excuse was the lamest thing they ever said, pretty much ever. Besides removing ricochet was the reason half the thieves pre HoT stopped being thieves. And rifle for thief should be modeled after an assault rifle so ricochet just makes sense helping make it more ranged AoE.
Whatever cry babies im super stoked for a true sniper build been run warrior kill shot for years but after there nurf stop using it much. Now i get to have all that fun again with this new and improved Sniper class =D so kitten excited.
I wouldn’t bash on what they’ve shown without personally playtesting it, because the new elites along side it (spellbreaker specifically) will still be able to shut down any warnings you may of had against it. Who knows, after playing you may even like it.
To me is pointless to have thief get rifles and not bring back ricochet, it would be a MAJOR slap in the face, and your right they should have brought it back by replacing ankle shot with it, because lets face it ankle shot is weak and useless, and that being Anets excuse was the lamest thing they ever said, pretty much ever. Besides removing ricochet was the reason half the thieves pre HoT stopped being thieves. And rifle for thief should be modeled after an assault rifle so ricochet just makes sense helping make it more ranged AoE.
Can confirm: I feel slapped in the face by the lack of Ricochet.
Can someone explain to me why everyone hates the Deadeye so much already when noone has even tried it?
Can someone explain to me why everyone hates the Deadeye so much already when noone has even tried it?
Because people on the forums are never satisfied fully by anything that’s outside of their own personal control. This includes profession development and video game mechanics that do not follow that individual’s personal playstyle to the “T”
Can someone explain to me why everyone hates the Deadeye so much already when noone has even tried it?
Because people on the forums are never satisfied fully by anything that’s outside of their own personal control. This includes profession development and video game mechanics that do not follow that individual’s personal playstyle to the “T”
I think it’s more along the lines of people suspecting DrD to be an objectively better specialization in all or most areas of the game compared to DE.
DE has to sacrifice mobility for damage, which is new but questionable to some. Conceptually that works fine, but when you look at the numbers DrD seems to have comparable DPS that’s also AoE while also staying mobile.
Malice can produce an inherent +21% damage increase on a single target, but it takes time to ramp up to that cap. DrD has an inherent +27% damage increase all the time to everyone he hits, targeted or not.
There’s a potential build for DE that can make it an effective Might bot that can perma stack 20 stacks of might easily, but there’s question if it’s worth taking over a PS warrior.
People are upset because the DE just looks like it doesn’t do what DrD, or other classes, can’t do better.
Rifle looks alright even for aoe and doesn’t look as static as people make it sound. Most DrD builds I see posted and used only take Bound for extra damage anyway. The strength for me with DrD was having so much impact come out of endurance resource pool instead of initiative or utility and that happens as consequence of moving how we move anyway.
I think what could hurt DE the most is having the whole show tied up in that single target Mark and in turn on Cantrips and relying on the target to live long enough to boost Mark’ed modifiers or to die fast enough to reset everything. The rest of the specialty looks pretty awesome for how it’s supposed to play but that aspect of it feels like a tight window, still, it could end up playing out just fine.
Can someone explain to me why everyone hates the Deadeye so much already when noone has even tried it?
Because people on the forums are never satisfied fully by anything that’s outside of their own personal control. This includes profession development and video game mechanics that do not follow that individual’s personal playstyle to the “T”
I think it’s more along the lines of people suspecting DrD to be an objectively better specialization in all or most areas of the game compared to DE.
DE has to sacrifice mobility for damage, which is new but questionable to some. Conceptually that works fine, but when you look at the numbers DrD seems to have comparable DPS that’s also AoE while also staying mobile.
Malice can produce an inherent +21% damage increase on a single target, but it takes time to ramp up to that cap. DrD has an inherent +27% damage increase all the time to everyone he hits, targeted or not.
There’s a potential build for DE that can make it an effective Might bot that can perma stack 20 stacks of might easily, but there’s question if it’s worth taking over a PS warrior.
People are upset because the DE just looks like it doesn’t do what DrD, or other classes, can’t do better.
My biggest gripes with DE are that the gameplay looks anti-fun for opponents, which is something that needs to be considered in PvP-friendly games, and due to its design, looks very one-trick-pony-ish (either insta-kill something or die or be a boon/boon rip bot) while offering definitive favoring towards certain specific weapons or kits. It feels as though the spec was made without a lot of thought or understanding of both the thief nor the general flow of gameplay for PvP/WvW. At its core, the DE is going to be either useless or overpowered in very specific regards because of its design being poor and very one-dimensional and lacking consistent synergy with the core thief.
I foresee DE being kind of like a P/P or signet thief build where it can stomp players who don’t expect it or aren’t built to deal with it, but will immediately fall apart when opponents are, while DrD will closer-rival the consistency and utility of the D/P situation we have now.
And like P/P and Backstab and PW and the likes, you can’t just buff DE to fix its inconsistencies; the flaws are in the underlying design of it or opposing kits because it can perform extremely well.
Whether or not the spec itself with launch as being OP or UP is irrelevant. What matters more than anything else is keeping the general GW2 gameplay fun for everyone involved and creating better platforms which can allow for better and more modular tweaks to balance.
In its implementation for PoF, the DE fell into the trap of the “Sniper” concept which despite getting proposed a lot by players, is not good design. ANet seemed to go with the “rule of cool” versus healthy game design decisions in this case, and that gives a huge negative outlook on their future decision-making coming from the PvP-oriented community at large.
The lack of good design is what caused PvP on the pro level to fail and multiple teams to quit prior to it. Just because something “seems cool” doesn’t make it a good idea.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
Can someone explain to me why everyone hates the Deadeye so much already when noone has even tried it?
Because people on the forums are never satisfied fully by anything that’s outside of their own personal control. This includes profession development and video game mechanics that do not follow that individual’s personal playstyle to the “T”
I think it’s more along the lines of people suspecting DrD to be an objectively better specialization in all or most areas of the game compared to DE.
DE has to sacrifice mobility for damage, which is new but questionable to some. Conceptually that works fine, but when you look at the numbers DrD seems to have comparable DPS that’s also AoE while also staying mobile.
Malice can produce an inherent +21% damage increase on a single target, but it takes time to ramp up to that cap. DrD has an inherent +27% damage increase all the time to everyone he hits, targeted or not.
There’s a potential build for DE that can make it an effective Might bot that can perma stack 20 stacks of might easily, but there’s question if it’s worth taking over a PS warrior.
People are upset because the DE just looks like it doesn’t do what DrD, or other classes, can’t do better.
My biggest gripes with DE are that the gameplay looks anti-fun for opponents, which is something that needs to be considered in PvP-friendly games, and due to its design, looks very one-trick-pony-ish (either insta-kill something or die or be a boon/boon rip bot) while offering definitive favoring towards certain specific weapons or kits. It feels as though the spec was made without a lot of thought or understanding of both the thief nor the general flow of gameplay for PvP/WvW. At its core, the DE is going to be either useless or overpowered in very specific regards because of its design being poor and very one-dimensional and lacking consistent synergy with the core thief.
I foresee DE being kind of like a P/P or signet thief build where it can stomp players who don’t expect it or aren’t built to deal with it, but will immediately fall apart when opponents are, while DrD will closer-rival the consistency and utility of the D/P situation we have now.
And like P/P and Backstab and PW and the likes, you can’t just buff DE to fix its inconsistencies; the flaws are in the underlying design of it or opposing kits because it can perform extremely well.
Whether or not the spec itself with launch as being OP or UP is irrelevant. What matters more than anything else is keeping the general GW2 gameplay fun for everyone involved and creating better platforms which can allow for better and more modular tweaks to balance.
In its implementation for PoF, the DE fell into the trap of the “Sniper” concept which despite getting proposed a lot by players, is not good design. ANet seemed to go with the “rule of cool” versus healthy game design decisions in this case, and that gives a huge negative outlook on their future decision-making coming from the PvP-oriented community at large.
The lack of good design is what caused PvP on the pro level to fail and multiple teams to quit prior to it. Just because something “seems cool” doesn’t make it a good idea.
PvP on the “pro level” was also a bad idea and deserved to fail. A game designed to cater to PvP type players at the PRO level will rarely have mass appeal. It hardly “healthy” game design. It niche, and for a limited amount of players . There very few ways to produce revenues for a company engaging in such.
PvP at the pro level might have seemed cool but it was not a good idea.
Implying that Sniping and “healthy game design” are mutex is your greatest fault.
Right after thinking that your idea had anything to do with Deadeye. Anet does read the forums often and will get ideas from them, balance is done with Anet’s ideas and interpretations, not the forums’.
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