My assumption is that shadow return will not be able to break CC with that 1/4 cast time so S/D is effectively dead in PvP.
With this both D/P and S/D will no longer be viable in tPvP so hopefully we can get some buffs to offset this.
Of course it’s not able to be cast while disabled, that’s the point
and it even said so in the thread by a dev oO.
Btw there is a huge buff to every other setup,
namely 30% more ini regen.
Btw there is a huge buff to every other setup,
namely 30% more ini regen.
Hardly a buff with huge nerf to opportunist. I’m sure someone can run some calculations but it’s safe to say there is no buff here, only break even at best.
Btw there is a huge buff to every other setup,
namely 30% more ini regen.
Hardly a buff with huge nerf to opportunist. I’m sure someone can run some calculations but it’s safe to say there is no buff here, only break even at best.
Well honestly i’m not that familiar with my thief but my warrior whom
i’ve been playing since shortly after launch is looking forward to yet more
BP spam because, yes, that shuts us down entirely and every decent thief knows that.
I honestly don’t like seeing thieves being pidgeonholed into d/p,
s/d you could at least hit.
Btw there is a huge buff to every other setup,
namely 30% more ini regen.
Hardly a buff with huge nerf to opportunist. I’m sure someone can run some calculations but it’s safe to say there is no buff here, only break even at best.
Well honestly i’m not that familiar with my thief but my warrior whom
i’ve been playing since shortly after launch is looking forward to yet more
BP spam because, yes, that shuts us down entirely and every decent thief knows that.
I honestly don’t like seeing thieves being pidgeonholed into d/p,
s/d you could at least hit.
Does it? Just move out of the black powder and/or use longbow with cleansing ire (every warrior running longbow anyways considering hambow is meta). Thief does not shut down warrior in any way or else teams wouldn’t be running 2-5 warriors with no thieves anymore.
My assumption is that shadow return will not be able to break CC with that 1/4 cast time so S/D is effectively dead in PvP.
With this both D/P and S/D will no longer be viable in tPvP so hopefully we can get some buffs to offset this.
D/P tpvp wont suffer to much since if you want it to be viable you are not going into SA trait line
Isn’t that just Caed who played glass D/P?
No thats any viable tpvp d/p build since if you go SA youfocus on invi to get many advantages and if you stay invi you cant cap or avoid others to cap wich will make your team suffer a lot for some selfish survival
My assumption is that shadow return will not be able to break CC with that 1/4 cast time so S/D is effectively dead in PvP.
With this both D/P and S/D will no longer be viable in tPvP so hopefully we can get some buffs to offset this.
D/P tpvp wont suffer to much since if you want it to be viable you are not going into SA trait line
Isn’t that just Caed who played glass D/P?
No thats any viable tpvp d/p build since if you go SA youfocus on invi to get many advantages and if you stay invi you cant cap or avoid others to cap wich will make your team suffer a lot for some selfish survival
IMHO ofc
So basically what you’re saying is D/P is still viable after these nerfs?
Last time I checked, D/P isn’t even viable anymore. Caed even quit and he is like the last thief to use this spec in tournaments.
My assumption is that shadow return will not be able to break CC with that 1/4 cast time so S/D is effectively dead in PvP.
With this both D/P and S/D will no longer be viable in tPvP so hopefully we can get some buffs to offset this.
D/P tpvp wont suffer to much since if you want it to be viable you are not going into SA trait line
Isn’t that just Caed who played glass D/P?
No thats any viable tpvp d/p build since if you go SA youfocus on invi to get many advantages and if you stay invi you cant cap or avoid others to cap wich will make your team suffer a lot for some selfish survival
IMHO ofc
So basically what you’re saying is D/P is still viable after these nerfs?
Last time I checked, D/P isn’t even viable anymore. Caed even quit and he is like the last thief to use this spec in tournaments.
Well d/p burst build will be less affected tha s/d and for now we only have those 2 choices thats what im saying
First, Caed never used perma stealth thief – they’re dumb and indicative of bad players. Secondly, Caed quit because the game is boring to him and because there isn’t any competitive play anymore due to crappy game balance – not because his build sucks. Hopefully this change will encourage some more team co-ordination, because the game needs more of it.
First, Caed never used perma stealth thief – they’re dumb and indicative of bad players. Secondly, Caed quit because the game is boring to him and because there isn’t any competitive play anymore due to crappy game balance – not because his build sucks. Hopefully this change will encourage some more team co-ordination, because the game needs more of it.
Everyone needs to quit crying and l2p shortbow.
SB is a weapon set that should be used for evade/teleport/combo finisher some rare times aoe cleave (supportive/situational), if you think its a weapon you should be using more than you main melee weapon set you are totally doing it wrong.
Than you main melee weapon set you are totally doing it wrong.
No, you are wrong. L2P shortbow. There is no “main”. Especially with the trickery build.
Bad. If you are not using SB as i explained (teleport/evade/combo finisher/sometimes aoe cleave) and you just sit your kitten using it during all the fight you are doing it wrong. your team and your self would get much more benefit if they had another class or build helping them.
But maybe all the top ranked thieves or 1 year + experienced thieves out there that use SB as secondary weapon are just wrong whileyou are right using it as main weapon, thats totally helpful for your team #sarcasm
If you are not using SB as i explained (teleport/evade/combo finisher/sometimes aoe cleave) and you just sit your kitten using it during all the fight you are doing it wrong.
No. This is just wrong. Like blatantly wrong. Like not even listening wrong.
But maybe all the top ranked thieves or 1 year + experienced thieves out there that use SB as secondary weapon are just wrong whileyou are right using it as main weapon, thats totally helpful for your team #sarcasm
Get better reading comprehension before you reply.
You win chicago, i am using now SB in fact im using 2 SB and i am winning 1v5 all the time!!! thanks so much for making me and everyone here understand why SB is soooo perfect. i will start my SB thief 5 man team now just hope after anet see us destroying everyone they dont nerf us more
If you look at the amount each weapon set is used then 10/30/0/0/30 thieves really should be described as sbow with d/p backup. Sbow rocks and it’s so much more defensive than d/p in most situations.
Tualek & F I Monk / Thief —-- Tk E / Engineer
Highest Solo Queue Rank Achieved: 40
Highest solo-join Team Queue Rank Achieved: 198
Just my opinion and no offense intended but I have to agree with Chicago Jack – If you ever spend any time watching Caed stream you will see how effectively he uses SB. He uses it like 75% or more of the time and only switches to D/P to burst down vulnerable/out-of-position targets.
Just my opinion and no offense intended but I have to agree with Chicago Jack – If you ever spend any time watching Caed stream you will see how effectively he uses SB. He uses it like 75% or more of the time and only switches to D/P to burst down vulnerable/out-of-position targets.
Not saying Caed was bad (hes very good and experienced) but thats why Lady nag nag was much more helpful to his team on the pax final and other games (he too carry a SB but he uses hes melee option more like 60-70% of the time) t=with this he cna keep much more pressure and help team much more than a thief that sits back pew pewing
Again not saying you shouldnt use SB i myself use S/D + SB but the main weapon for thief if you want to help you team to pressure (hats your job) are the melee sets cause if you want to stay more ranged there are other classes that can add that in a much better way than the thief
You know you can go into melee range and spam clusterbomb right? The whole subject is pretty off topic though. Sword will be nerfed to the ground with this change.
Tualek & F I Monk / Thief —-- Tk E / Engineer
Highest Solo Queue Rank Achieved: 40
Highest solo-join Team Queue Rank Achieved: 198
You know you can go into melee range and spam clusterbomb right? The whole subject is pretty off topic though. Sword will be nerfed to the ground with this change.
If you do that in pvp environment you will be completely exposed and since we arent tanky thats not really good. And yes its off topic. Sword will suffer a hard hit =/
imo infi strike needed this change. It was just to easy to stay alive unless you the player decided to over commit. WIth the change coming to PW S/D could be back in action
imo infi strike needed this change. It was just to easy to stay alive unless you the player decided to over commit. WIth the change coming to PW S/D could be back in action
This change prevents a thief from securing a safestomp on guardians/rangers/warriors/engineers by using sword 2 to port back then finishing with steal or inf signet. Forget balance for a second and realize that doing that is incredibly fun and losing it makes the game more stale. Even mesmer can do that with staff 2 and it’s port.
Tualek & F I Monk / Thief —-- Tk E / Engineer
Highest Solo Queue Rank Achieved: 40
Highest solo-join Team Queue Rank Achieved: 198
imo infi strike needed this change. It was just to easy to stay alive unless you the player decided to over commit. WIth the change coming to PW S/D could be back in action
Any player who knew how to fight thieves though would just fight you over the place you ported from which was only 600 away unless combined with steal. Also since it doesn’t break channels anyone fighting you with a ranged weapon barely notices you did anything other than make their character pivot slightly.
Seriously guys you really think the initiative buff was even needed in the first place? I never ever had problems with initiative management in this game even without the traits that give me initiative. Anet just needed some way to offset the larger nerfs in some way and came up with an idea to just halve the initiative regen traits.
The only thing I see what the initiative regen buff did was that p/p #3-Unload can be better spammed now.
So.. what build do you think will be viable after this patch?
well a d/d 0/30/30/10/0 build or a some sort of p/d condi build, but seeing how they will nerf aka fix runes of perplexity the p/d will lose a lot of its confusion stacking potential…so mostly just d/d left
Most of it is because other meta professions are just plain stronger though. Hambow, spirit ranger, condi necro.
Which is being addressed in the patch.
Bottom Line: S/D is boringly easy to play. It’s getting nerfed – hopefully to a state where the good players will be able to sustain pressure and the bad players will have to peel more frequently. On the other hand, d/p shortbow actually takes some skill. It’s not getting touched (other than opportunist). In fact, some say it’s getting a buff.
Most of it is because other meta professions are just plain stronger though. Hambow, spirit ranger, condi necro.
Which is being addressed in the patch.
Bottom Line: S/D is boringly easy to play. It’s getting nerfed – hopefully to a state where the good players will be able to sustain pressure and the bad players will have to peel more frequently. On the other hand, d/p shortbow actually takes some skill. It’s not getting touched (other than opportunist). In fact, some say it’s getting a buff.
You’re being elitist. I do better with d/p+sb than s/d+sb in spvp, how is that possible if s/d is so faceroll OP/easy? They both reward good play and punish bad. I’m all for raising the skill ceiling but even the best s/d users will be worse than they were before this coming patch. But then again, where are they? They already re-rolled before this nerf even hit….
Tualek & F I Monk / Thief —-- Tk E / Engineer
Highest Solo Queue Rank Achieved: 40
Highest solo-join Team Queue Rank Achieved: 198
How is that possible if s/d is so faceroll OP/easy? They both reward good play and punish bad.
This really is not hard to understand. One has perma-evade, the other does not. In one you have to be as unpredictable as possible, you have to land your interrupts on important skills and land your steals, you have to use cross-weapon combinations to pull things off effectively, you have to count dodges, you have to know when to go on the offensive and when to go on the defensive. In the other, you have to press 3 for dayz with a few 1+dodge thrown in with a 2 setup if something goes wrong. It is not hard to play s/d for similar reasons why it’s not hard to play a Warrior who doesn’t have to worry about activating his heal skill. Only Warrior is even worse of a cheese offender because he has a higher health pool, more armor, and a potential 3 condition condi clear on burst.
There is NO differentiation between a bad S/D player and a good one. Hopefully these changes WILL introduce some type of differentiation between a good S/D player and a bad one. Hopefully the bad ones will have to peel more often, reducing dps pressure. There are reasons why upper-level players left the game, and S/D theefs are part of that reason.
they made #3 too spammable, but then again, nerfing shadow return doesn’t exactly fix that problem. if the goal is to reduce #3 spamming they could’ve increased ini cost or reduced damage on flanking strike or larcenous strike.
How is that possible if s/d is so faceroll OP/easy? They both reward good play and punish bad.
This really is not hard to understand. One has perma-evade, the other does not. In one you have to be as unpredictable as possible, you have to land your interrupts on important skills and land your steals, you have to use cross-weapon combinations to pull things off effectively, you have to count dodges, you have to know when to go on the offensive and when to go on the defensive. In the other, you have to press 3 for dayz with a few 1+dodge thrown in with a 2 setup if something goes wrong. It is not hard to play s/d for similar reasons why it’s not hard to play a Warrior who doesn’t have to worry about activating his heal skill. Only Warrior is even worse of a cheese offender because he has a higher health pool, more armor, and a potential 3 condition condi clear on burst.
There is NO differentiation between a bad S/D player and a good one. Hopefully these changes WILL introduce some type of differentiation between a good S/D player and a bad one. Hopefully the bad ones will have to peel more often, reducing dps pressure. There are reasons why upper-level players left the game, and S/D theefs are part of that reason.
And d/p has blind/interrupt spam. I got within the top 200 in solo queue using d/p, I know it very well. I also find it a lot easier to fight against warriors with d/p than s/d. It’s not that hard to hit #5 and fight around that small circle. This change won’t make bad thieves peel more (they won’t be able to peel not having the pseudo-stunbreak). Also, you won’t see a difference between good and bad s/d thieves because no one will be playing it. Don’t believe me? I guess we’ll see soon enough.
S/D needs a higher skill ceiling and this isn’t helping it. Making tactical strike and dancing dagger worth using would achieve that though. But hell… that’d be a buff now wouldn’kitten
Tualek & F I Monk / Thief —-- Tk E / Engineer
Highest Solo Queue Rank Achieved: 40
Highest solo-join Team Queue Rank Achieved: 198
How is that possible if s/d is so faceroll OP/easy? They both reward good play and punish bad.
This really is not hard to understand. One has perma-evade, the other does not. In one you have to be as unpredictable as possible, you have to land your interrupts on important skills and land your steals, you have to use cross-weapon combinations to pull things off effectively, you have to count dodges, you have to know when to go on the offensive and when to go on the defensive. In the other, you have to press 3 for dayz with a few 1+dodge thrown in with a 2 setup if something goes wrong. It is not hard to play s/d for similar reasons why it’s not hard to play a Warrior who doesn’t have to worry about activating his heal skill. Only Warrior is even worse of a cheese offender because he has a higher health pool, more armor, and a potential 3 condition condi clear on burst.
There is NO differentiation between a bad S/D player and a good one. Hopefully these changes WILL introduce some type of differentiation between a good S/D player and a bad one. Hopefully the bad ones will have to peel more often, reducing dps pressure. There are reasons why upper-level players left the game, and S/D theefs are part of that reason.
And d/p has blind/interrupt spam. I got within the top 200 in solo queue using d/p, I know it very well. I also find it a lot easier to fight against warriors with d/p than s/d. It’s not that hard to hit #5 and fight around that small circle. This change won’t make bad thieves peel more (they won’t be able to peel not having the pseudo-stunbreak). Also, you won’t see a difference between good and bad s/d thieves because no one will be playing it. Don’t believe me? I guess we’ll see soon enough.
S/D needs a higher skill ceiling and this isn’t helping it. Making tactical strike and dancing dagger worth using would achieve that though. But hell… that’d be a buff now wouldn’kitten
Like unsplitting it from PvE and unnerfing Dancing dagger so S1, 4, and 5 would be worth the initiative again? Thats how I was playing it in WvW but 1v1’s with a good boon bunkers became way too drawn out after the nerf to LS. Went back to D/P non-permastealth, but it doesn’t have quite enough damage (for my build) and ended back in D/D. This time my build is eating a nerf to vigorous recovery (which I think was targeted because of S/D). I’ll see how much it suffers with this nerf. Could be another stealth trap/ sic ’em situation.
Back on topic: S/D needs to be unsplit in PvP at the same time this change is instituted to make it work more harmoniously especially after the change to daze/stuns (looking as you TS). I doubt that will ever happen though.
If a person mindlessly spams anything in d/p trickery, they’re bad and they will die or be forced to peel against another good player. There is no direct initiative management beyond trickery 5, infiltrator signet, and crit strikes 15.
they made #3 too spammable, but then again, nerfing shadow return doesn’t exactly fix that problem. if the goal is to reduce #3 spamming they could’ve increased ini cost or reduced damage on flanking strike or larcenous strike.
This is probably the most informative and correct statement.
nerfing Shadow return on sword is not just a nerf to S/D but also (yet again) S/P. when you’re indirectly nerfing other weapon sets because another set was too evasive or “OP” does that justify the nerf? No, It signifies that Anet once again, is being sloppy and doesn’t give a shlt.
And yah, As topic stated: This is not going to be a minor/moderate nerf, this is going to be a pretty big nerf. A 1/4 second cast for an already really buggy shadow return, how ridiculous can Anet get?
I bet if they will make this nerf a lot off ppl who only plays just thief will just leave the game ( i will do the same )till arena net stops playing with us
Huge nerf ENORMOUS nerf.
S/D thief perma evade is legit,like D/P thief is perma stealth.
Why nerf the perma evade and keep the perma stealth? at least in evades the enemy can see you.
So.. what build do you think will be viable after this patch?
well a d/d 0/30/30/10/0 build or a some sort of p/d condi build, but seeing how they will nerf aka fix runes of perplexity the p/d will lose a lot of its confusion stacking potential…so mostly just d/d left
Well i was talking about competitive builds, d/d will still be bad even after the 33% ini gain imho
I bet if they will make this nerf a lot off ppl who only plays just thief will just leave the game ( i will do the same )till arena net stops playing with us
You’ve already payed for the game, and if you’re willing to leave the game over such stupid stuff then you probably wouldn’t invest anymore money into it anyways. Most likely they don’t care because of that. I only play Thief, you must think outside of the box, don’t just play builds that other people make or that won’t get you anywhere.
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Well i was talking about competitive builds, d/d will still be bad even after the 33% ini gain imho
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Well mabye a double short bow power build or something.You have a evade on 3 and cluster bomb can do ok damage if you don’t detonate it, mabye , possibly….yea at least you would have a cool looking poison field
If a person mindlessly spams anything in d/p trickery, they’re bad and they will die or be forced to peel against another good player. There is no direct initiative management beyond trickery 5, infiltrator signet, and crit strikes 15.
S/D needs a higher skill ceiling and this isn’t helping it.
Yes it is. Limiting the amount of evades capable is not a new concept. Even people like gutz and supcutie suggest it.
I’d like to educate you on the subject further but I simply don’t have the time unfortunately. The blinds and much higher damage on d/p easily makes up for having less evades. Try playing s/d for the few weeks before the nerf and you might finally understand. Maybe you’ll even make it on the leaderboard with it That’d be pretty sweet!
Tualek & F I Monk / Thief —-- Tk E / Engineer
Highest Solo Queue Rank Achieved: 40
Highest solo-join Team Queue Rank Achieved: 198
The blinds and much higher damage on d/p easily makes up for having less evades.
Of course this is true – so is the effectiveness of using the shortbow, dazes, stealth, and dodging efficiently. We are talking about spamming skills and not the effectiveness of blinds. Sure if a person is dumb (like a REALLY dumb warrior who sits in blackpowder), placing a blackpowder field every four seconds is usually good enough to deal with him. However if you spam anything in d/p against a good player you are going to run out of initiative fast. You simply do not sit on point and press 6 every four seconds with a d/p trickery thief fighting someone who is not brainless. You also do not just 6 + 2 every 4 seconds ether.
There is NO differentiation between a bad S/D player and a good one. Hopefully these changes WILL introduce some type of differentiation between a good S/D player and a bad one. Hopefully the bad ones will have to peel more often, reducing dps pressure. There are reasons why upper-level players left the game, and S/D theefs are part of that reason.
I beg to differ. D/P thieves are probably the majority reason why people are leaving esp in wvwvw (where the majority of the kids are).
And the same can be said about D/P thieves as well. There are no difference between a good d/p and a bad d/p.
That’d be pretty sweet!