Fail to succeed, Colin on development.
…
When I was watching the legendary reveal, it looked like a lot of fun to run around, and slowly put together all the legendaries (It will be my first mastery line once I unlock the glider)… But I felt pretty sad when I thought about the state of my class, and where my class is going. To which I was met with the quote from Colin here in my post.
…
Heh same thing for me yesterday. Thought it would be amazing to finally craft a legendary, go on raids, do WvW, play and enjoy the game. Then reality snapped back in, and I realized my main is a thief.
O well, waiting on Tuesday/BWE3… There’s still lots of time to decide to get HoT or not.
“Some times weeks before it’s suppose to be done, you might realize this thing isn’t working we need to throw it out and do it all over again.”
Hope this is the case for DD.
Do you think it’s a coincidence that elementalist and thief, who got kittenty elite spec, are both under Karl and his team management? I don’t think so.
R.I.P. thieves
daredevil class mechanic is = 1 energy sigil proc to really put it into perspective. and as for our grand master traits warrior gets the damage one on a minor trait. I was hoping with how unfun i have being finding thief to play in pvp that the spec will renew my interest in the class (thief is not bad in pvp but not fun at all as you play 1v0 most the game and f1 1 some one at 25 % hp for those sick thief plays) i was really hoping the specialization would make me go aww yeah thief time bb but after 5k games on thief through multiple teams in the past through all the nerfs im almost ready to quit it as i am having no fun on it anymore.
One hope, One dream, One Dagger Thief
K U R A Enguard [ENG], Pretty Princess Squad [MEN]
K U R A Enguard [ENG], Pretty Princess Squad [MEN]
I actually like what the DD wants to be, but it is nowhere near good enough in its actual state to perform that role. They need to restore Acrobatics to everything that it was this time last year, and then build the DD on to of that, rather than burning Acro down and giving us back half of what used to be there. And if they want Daredevil to fill the role it’s designed for, then they need to give us better tools to accomplish that job, a better ability to live inside melee range, unstealthed, and not die there.
DD offers decent offensive capability, but not nearly enough to just chill out in melee range with an opponent who can see you. They either need to significantly buff the Staff/Physical/traited damage capabilities to make DD the Lords of Burst, which would be hard to balance, or they need to greatly boost the DD’s defense/healing to make them more survivable, and make sure that these defenses are equally effective against players, random packs of mobs, and raid bosses, not just situational defenses that might be strong enough in some situations, but worthless in others.
They need traits that passively offer things like Toughness, Vitality, and other elements that would make a DD as tough in a standup fight as other “hard” melee classes. One extra dodge is not enough to make any difference, and is nothing compared to the sustainable dodging that we used to have through Feline Grace. It’s basically like if they took the Druid and said “remember how you used to like swapping pets on your Ranger? Well we removed pet swapping from the default Ranger, but we gave it back to the Druid, but you only get to swap pets once per in-combat.” And that would be ALL the Druid would get as a class mechanic, no Celestial Form.
It’s basically like taking something someone already owns, breaking it, gift wrapping it, and then giving it back to them as a Christmas Present. Merry Christmas.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
My mind keeps going back to Scrapper’s Adaptive Armor GM, which still feels like it’d fit perfectly on Thief. Passive -20% damage taken from Conditions (a Thief’s worst enemy), and a Toughness boost received on hit that stacks up to five times.
My thinking is that the real ’special sauce" of daredevil is the dodge+ mechanic right? All the other stuff in DD is just more endurance so you can actually use the dodge+
Crazy idea:
What if acrobatics had all of the thief’s endurance related traits, but did not add effects to dodge, and Daredevil traits focused in stead on enhancing dodge, physicals, or staff exclusively?
Acro wouldn’t suck, Daredevil would be useful with or without acro, and you’d have just plain more build choices. You could run a DD without extra endurance, because you wanted to run a bunch of physicals and be more CC focused, and pick a dodge+ that worked for the build. You could run DD+Acro if you really wanted to run a dodge tank. You could run just plain acro if you didn’t want the staff or physicals and still have an evasive build.
Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
What if acrobatics had all of the thief’s endurance related traits, but did not add effects to dodge, and Daredevil traits focused in stead on enhancing dodge, physicals, or staff exclusively?.
Acro would suck. Acro would have to be paired with DD to be useful. DD would still be a fancy name for acro.
There is no way for DD in it’s current set up to work, because all the traits could be thrown into the acro line and no one would even notice the difference.
That’s the problem. You look at the DD line and say: This is acro right? Oh wait, this is our elite? What…?
Do you think it’s a coincidence that elementalist and thief, who got kittenty elite spec, are both under Karl and his team management? I don’t think so.
You forgot DH.
DD should have honestly replace the trash,UP and “wut..why?” traits of Acro. He also killed the only diversity ele saw in a while yes “he who knows his name” you killed condi and cele signet ele. Tuesday has to be salvation day.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
What if acrobatics had all of the thief’s endurance related traits, but did not add effects to dodge, and Daredevil traits focused in stead on enhancing dodge, physicals, or staff exclusively?.
Acro would suck. Acro would have to be paired with DD to be useful. DD would still be a fancy name for acro.
There is no way for DD in it’s current set up to work, because all the traits could be thrown into the acro line and no one would even notice the difference.
That’s the problem. You look at the DD line and say: This is acro right? Oh wait, this is our elite? What…?
Acro didn’t suck when feline grace was pretty much the only reason to take the line. Combine feline grace with endurance thief and acro’s current reactive traits I don’t think it would suck at all.
Just sayin’
Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
Do you think it’s a coincidence that elementalist and thief, who got kittenty elite spec, are both under Karl and his team management? I don’t think so.
It’s difficult to not question competence when P/P has been broken in the exact same very specific, easily fixable way for 3 full years.
The thing is, Daredevil should have three distinct traiting paths.
1. The Acro path, with an adept, master, and GM trait, each focused on making Dodging ore powerful to use in combat.
2. The Staff Melee path, with an adept, master, and GM trait, each focused not specifically on the staff (they would be applicable to other weapons), but designed around making the staff a more effective combat tool, more defense oriented, more damaging than the other two DD specs. It’s worth keeping in mind, however, that you need to be a DD in the first place to ever wield a staff, so the staff should be a better weapon at baseline than most other weapons and be less reliant on traits.
3. A Wildcard path, with boosts to Physical abilities, and just to baseline Thief stuff that would benefit a DD, and not conflict too badly with the other two lines.
Right now, the problem with the DD traiting is that the GMs are ALL taken up by dodge stuff, as well as several of the adept/master traits.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
daredevil class mechanic is = 1 energy sigil proc to really put it into perspective. and as for our grand master traits warrior gets the damage one on a minor trait.
This right here. It’s crazy how our new specialization that is supposed to be equally as cool and innovative as the others is exactly what you mentioned above. So run with energy sigil on a warrior and you are already better than a DD.
Luto Locke
Twitch Stream
Twitch Stream
It’s getting a little tired the entire “Upcoming content will have stuff that you can’t just dodge to survive.” quote. Everyone is focusing on the word dodge, rather than the word JUST. Much like when everyone focuses on “No trinity” thinking it means that they never intended anyone to be able to set themselves into any kind of specific role, which it does NOT. Yeah, maybe dodging alone won’t be enough for raids, but there is a reason Druid and Revenant have strong dedicated support specs. Maybe you will have to rely on your team-mates to some extent. SHOCK, a raid that requires support from your other party members. There are plenty of reasons to be annoyed by the elite spec of Daredevil, but THIS PARTICULAR QUOTE is not one of them. There will still be a place for high evasion, just like there will still be a place for some zerkass damage dealers. It just means the entire party can’t be ALL dodges or ALL berserk etc. etc. You will need some diversity.
Do you think it’s a coincidence that elementalist and thief, who got kittenty elite spec, are both under Karl and his team management? I don’t think so.
Isnt dragonhunter his job too?
Im glad that guards are mad but wtf?
“Im speaker of Truth” – Mefiq.7039 2015
Yep. If it were just Daredevil then sure, people could make the argument Thieves are blowing things out of proportion. That becomes a less salient argument when three elite specializations all designed by the same person just happen to be the ones receiving the most consistently negative feedback. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck…
Right now, a lot of thieves are looking at other elite’s and saying: MAN! This looks so GOOD and creative! …. I might have to reroll mains… Where as other classes are excited for their elite specialization. I have seen a few, very very few comments about ‘hope’ that the dare devil might be what they want, but out side of that I don’t see any one excited about rerolling thief for HOT.
This is where I’m at. Though to be fair, I have 7/8 lvl 80s. And if you look at my stats, my spvp main is my mesmer, my pve main is my ranger (recently), and my wvw main used to be my guardian (not really doing wvw atm)…
But I got pretty excited to play my thief again after the DD reveal. Now seeing all of the others, including the Rev, I’m very likely not going to play the thief still.
daredevil class mechanic is = 1 energy sigil proc to really put it into perspective. and as for our grand master traits warrior gets the damage one on a minor trait.
This right here. It’s crazy how our new specialization that is supposed to be equally as cool and innovative as the others is exactly what you mentioned above. So run with energy sigil on a warrior and you are already better than a DD.
This made me curious. Does the sigil give 50% endurance? or does it give a flat amount? In other words, as a DD, do you get 1.5 extra dodges or just 1?
When the patch comes out tomorrow, I’m going to laugh my kitten off when I see these Thief changes.
I guarantee that they’ll fix all the “bugs” Thief currently has, like Basi Venom lasting .5 second too long, further nerfing us. Whist giving pistol a damage increase… ’Cause pistol is the thing in dire need of a buff… >_>
I hold 0 hope for the patch notes tomorrow. The Devs have not posted anything supportive in these forums for months, excluding the BWE feedback for Daredevil (which is still a bad Elite spec, even after the “buffs” it’s getting).
https://www.twitch.tv/meepeYPlays
WvW Thief Aurora Glade – Mutli Bulid Streamer – 1PM – 4PM GMT, Mon – Fri
My Daredevil Build: The Defender!
WvW Thief Aurora Glade – Mutli Bulid Streamer – 1PM – 4PM GMT, Mon – Fri
My Daredevil Build: The Defender!
This made me curious. Does the sigil give 50% endurance? or does it give a flat amount? In other words, as a DD, do you get 1.5 extra dodges or just 1?
It only restores 50, so just 1.
Yep. If it were just Daredevil then sure, people could make the argument Thieves are blowing things out of proportion. That becomes a less salient argument when three elite specializations all designed by the same person just happen to be the ones receiving the most consistently negative feedback. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck…
the thing that gets me though is, is there no oversight at ANet? Do the devs not even communicate with each other, to see what the other teams are up to? How does it get this far into the process before someone realizes that these three classes are not remotely as cool as what the other ones are doing? I mean, our excuse is that they were only dribbling out updates at their own pace, but what’s their excuse?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Do you think it’s a coincidence that elementalist and thief, who got kittenty elite spec, are both under Karl and his team management? I don’t think so.
Isn’t he also in charge of dragonhunter?
To be frank i’d be completely ok if DD was completely gutted and started from scratch. Even if that meant it wouldn’t be ready by release.
I would actually ENCOURAGE that. lol.
[VLK] – No one ever complains about bad Thieves, they die.
Do you think it’s a coincidence that elementalist and thief, who got kittenty elite spec, are both under Karl and his team management? I don’t think so.
I hate to say this but I think it really is.
As far as I know, the 3 least liked elite specs were Dragonhunter, Tempest and Daredevil, and all 3 if them are under his management.
Do you think it’s a coincidence that elementalist and thief, who got kittenty elite spec, are both under Karl and his team management? I don’t think so.
I hate to say this but I think it really is.
As far as I know, the 3 least liked elite specs were Dragonhunter, Tempest and Daredevil, and all 3 if them are under his management.
Druid and berserker seem to be competing for that spot.
Hardly anyone mentions berserkers, and druid seems to be the only elite spec that people actually outright hate, rather than just being disappointed by.
Do you think it’s a coincidence that elementalist and thief, who got kittenty elite spec, are both under Karl and his team management? I don’t think so.
I hate to say this but I think it really is.
As far as I know, the 3 least liked elite specs were Dragonhunter, Tempest and Daredevil, and all 3 if them are under his management.
Druid and berserker seem to be competing for that spot.
Hardly anyone mentions berserkers, and druid seems to be the only elite spec that people actually outright hate, rather than just being disappointed by.
Only thing people about druid is that he is mainly a healer he’s danm good at it for zerks it’s only because rage skills resemble physical skills and zerk state being somewhat dull. They are not disappointing some just don’t like the choice I was surprised druid was healer and some warriors claim “I didn’t choose war to play condi” and keep being ignorant.
You definitely can’t compare those 2 to DD,DH or Tempest.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
what’s their excuse?
Forget inter-elite spec communication for a second . What’s the excuse for designing thief elite spec around dodge, when they are explicitly designing content for which dodge will not be an acceptable defense???
I mean, come on. Surely the person in charge of designing content should have checked in with each of the elite spec teams to make sure what they are designing would be compatible with the content being designed right? Right?
So what happened? Did they skip the thief meeting for the last 9 months?
To be frank i’d be completely ok if DD was completely gutted and started from scratch. Even if that meant it wouldn’t be ready by release.
It isn’t really necessary. The basics are there, they just need to dial them up to “11” (they’re currently dialed to like ,“4”).
A “Thief with more/better dodge” is a great idea. The DD just barely provides that, and only because they nerfed the vanilla Thief this summer, the DD is still not better than the pre-nerf Thief. Three dodge bars is NOT a great thing. It is one extra dodge, and then you’re on the same page as everyone else. To be truly effective, the DD needs better ways to regenerate endurance, and Step 1 of that is giving us back our kitten Feline Grace.
Three modified dodges are a great idea, they just need to work at least as well as the base dodge (which supposedly they will this weekend), AND they still need to be better, with some flashiness to them, and bonus effects that are worth taking. If they’re going to take up GM slots, then they need to be WORTH GM slots, not like Bound which has the same basic effect as a Warrior adept trait. Ideally though they would be made baseline to the DD, and three new GM traits would be added.
Whether they keep them locked to traits or not, they need to give us a UI button to swap between them, at the very minimum outside of combat, but in combat would be better. You should not have to go into the trait menu each time you want to swap dodges.
A “stand and fight” Thief is a fine idea, they just need to provide the DD with better tools to do that and not die for his troubles. He needs better defensive options, maybe more blind, maybe some sort of special defense that makes them even tougher against Weakened enemies, something that can allow a staff Thief to “stand in the fire” when dealing with regular mobs, players, champs, and world bosses. If a Staff Thief cannot stand his ground then he’s not worth anything, because he can’t stealth and run.
The staff also absolutely needs to get some animation tweaks in.
I don’t want to come down on Karl about this, I think he’s probably a good guy trying to do his best, but someone at ANet should have had an eye on this and realized that these specs were not on the same SCALE as the other ones, that these would just not measure up and needed some work. I don’t think anything bad should happen to him, but I think that ANet needs to DUMP budget on his development team, shoring him up with all the artists and design3ers that he could possibly need to get this made right as soon as possible. Nothing whatsoever takes priority over this, everyone needs to drop what they’re doing and get to work fixing the DD and Tempest.
Let me tell you a little story. I’ve also been playing a game called Marvel Heroes, and they just released Kitty Pryde to their test center. It was a fiasco. Her basic movement power was more of a teleport than a phasing power (due to understandable engine concerns), many of her powers were lackluster, and she had a pet that would only attack on command, no auto-attack. Due to massive community backlash, they took the complaints to heart and knuckled down. In ONE WEEK, they mostly fixed her, enough to be suitable to launch. They gave the pet an autoattack. They added not one but two more travel powers more suited to the character, one of which required an entirely new teleport system to be developed. They added a couple other cool new powers and made significant tweaks to others.
They did all of this in one week. And in the past month all we’ve seen out of DD is that they removed the animations from Lotus, and made them work a bit less clunky. Hopefully. They need to devote more resources to this.
Druid and berserker seem to be competing for that spot.
Druid is a wildcard. Some people hate the entire idea of what it is, some love it. I think that’s one where it’s ok if most people don’t like it, so long as those that do like it, love it. The Tempest and DD, opinions all range from “hate it,” to “neutral.”
Forget inter-elite spec communication for a second . What’s the excuse for designing thief elite spec around dodge, when they are explicitly designing content for which dodge will not be an acceptable defense???
Well, I have faith on this one. I have faith that they would not make the DD dodge-specced if they were also introducing anti-dodge mechanics. My hope is that when DD is in shape, it will be able to overcome any anti-dodge mechanics they make, for example an enemy might employ an unblockable Immobilize, followed by a damage spike, which most players would be unable to evade, but DDs can dodge out of Immobilize. Or maybe there will be too many dodges happening at once to evade them all, but a DD, once fixed, would have enough endurance to keep on dodging indefinitely. If it does just come down to enemies with attacks that can’t be dodged, then yeah, kitten that.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Do you think it’s a coincidence that elementalist and thief, who got kittenty elite spec, are both under Karl and his team management? I don’t think so.
I hate to say this but I think it really is.
As far as I know, the 3 least liked elite specs were Dragonhunter, Tempest and Daredevil, and all 3 if them are under his management.
Druid and berserker seem to be competing for that spot.
Hardly anyone mentions berserkers, and druid seems to be the only elite spec that people actually outright hate, rather than just being disappointed by.
People don’t mention berserkers because there’s nothing really bad or good about it, its just ‘OK’. It’s new mechanics aren’t massively innovative but aren’t ‘oh, you got 1 more dodge now’ either. It doesn’t exactly take the class in a whole new direction but its different enough and its not like the Tempest where you look at the new stuff and just go ‘why would I ever want to use any if this over what I got?’.
There’s a hate amongst rangers for the Druid not because the spec itself is bad or anything, in fact the spec is incredibly innovative and makes an amazing healer. The problem is that PvE so far has no need for healers but Anet wants to change that.
That’s not the same level as the problems with DD and Tempest.
(edited by Xae Isareth.1364)
Rather than reiterate what’s already said, I’ll just give a hearty +1 to the last two posts.
Since we’re getting to the end of the current beta weekend and the DD is still in a pretty poor place… I feel bumping this post is fair.
Do I hear Thief Rifles? Because, well, our ranged combat is crap to non-existent lol. Can’t copy what you never had.
Liaison for [Teef]
“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta
“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta
yeah, the future pvp thief in the expansion will be …. d/p thief. same as it is now.
Theiff got the shaft on everything.
Staff… wtf. We aren’t ninjas… we are thieves.
Daredevil… good concept, but too similar to acro to make it unique. Not unique. Its basically what acro should have been.
thiefs wanted rifle. A good number wanted off hand sword, and some wouldn’t have minded main hand/off hand mace (could be good c/c build to complement stealth builds). I also think main hand torch would have been a cool unique class thing for thief. (think smoke fields,blind, and condi damage with torch main hand)
So, dev’s have no idea what the thief community would like to see, nor do they have any concept of what they actually want for thief.
i actually really, really like the daredevil on paper. the problem is it’s struggling to get there, and instead it’s just a bursty thief by any other name right now. even with its shortcomings (mostly tied to staff’s identity crisis, really, and acro not being as good of a complementary line as you’d think), it’s still a blast to play one, and i’m far happier with it than any “sniper ninja” spec people were begging for.
question is, can the devs get the daredevil “right” in time?
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
I’m not buying HoT until I see Thief improve to a level on par with other professions, simply put. I’m in no rush to spend $$$ on a game that simply wont deliver.
“No valid path to target” – Thief life (Dragonbrand)
Edit: I just realized im not using Acro with daredevil. It felt like i was, it seems you dont actually need acro anymore to be an acro thief. Makes me wonder what the entire point of destroying the line was for in the end, just to make it useless?
(edited by Ragion.2831)
PvP wise:
Daredevil brings the s/d thief to 80% of what it was before the Acro nerf.
The staff does 80% of what the s/d weaponset does for survival.
And every other class is at 120% of what they were before the June balance patch.