Guild Wars 2

I’m looking at the language used in the balance blog released for the feature pack and comparing it to the changes we know they want to implement via the Skill Bar episodes.

In addition to the nerfs thief is getting directly, it seems like thief will be nerfed indirectly by the lack of power creep it’s getting and the gains the other professions are getting in power creep. But it’s hard to say without knowing details around the elementalist, guardian, necromancer, and Mesmer changes.

it’s not power creep if those things were previously underpowered. it’s bringing up to par. in theory, this means other professions will have more builds to play with, not “strong things will be stronger”. there’s a big difference.

that said, i’m starting to lose faith in the balance team’s handling of the thief profession. even the buffs they gave us felt incredibly misguided. D/D still has conflicting skills; dancing dagger is still a waste of slot; venoms are still being held ransom by venomous aura (and by proxy, every other venom trait is crap, and lets not even talk about untraited venoms); P/P will remain a mess of a weapon set centered on pressing 3 until the enemy kills you; traps still hilariously bad.

the venom aura change is the one that hurts the most, because it shows a clear misunderstanding of what venoms are for in the first place. venoms aren’t for condi damage. venoms don’t even deal condi damage, except for a single one. and it doesn’t solve the problem that the only way to use venoms in this game is to spec 12 points into venoms, get healing power gear, and then be your party’s venom dispenser, with no stealth, no damage, no stun breaks, nothing. which in turn is an overall decrease in party effectiveness because this game punishes niche builds in favor of more hybridized builds (i.e. i can support you, but i can hold my own and contribute to the damage), which in turn means venoms are still crap.

it just kittenes me off, because i know it’ll be another 6 months before any chance of the profession seeing any actual change or improvement.

/rant

BrunoBRS.5178:

that said, i’m starting to lose faith in the balance team’s handling of the thief profession. even the buffs they gave us felt incredibly misguided.

Lets be honest tho, what would they possibly buff on sd or dp without making them OP? They were incredibly good sets before the patch, sd acro was almost unbeatable 1v1. After the patch theyll still be very strong.

Carpboy.7145:

BrunoBRS.5178:

that said, i’m starting to lose faith in the balance team’s handling of the thief profession. even the buffs they gave us felt incredibly misguided.

Lets be honest tho, what would they possibly buff on sd or dp without making them OP? They were incredibly good sets before the patch, sd acro was almost unbeatable 1v1. After the patch theyll still be very strong.

I’m sure theres a few things that could be reverted, without making things OP…. Like the range on cluster bomb.

Zero Day.2594:

Carpboy.7145:

BrunoBRS.5178:

that said, i’m starting to lose faith in the balance team’s handling of the thief profession. even the buffs they gave us felt incredibly misguided.

Lets be honest tho, what would they possibly buff on sd or dp without making them OP? They were incredibly good sets before the patch, sd acro was almost unbeatable 1v1. After the patch theyll still be very strong.

I’m sure theres a few things that could be reverted, without making things OP…. Like the range on cluster bomb.

1200 SB again would be so awesome, but i doubt it.

Carpboy.7145:

BrunoBRS.5178:

that said, i’m starting to lose faith in the balance team’s handling of the thief profession. even the buffs they gave us felt incredibly misguided.

Lets be honest tho, what would they possibly buff on sd or dp without making them OP? They were incredibly good sets before the patch, sd acro was almost unbeatable 1v1. After the patch theyll still be very strong.

did you finish reading my post? i don’t even touch on S/D or D/P. in fact i’m pretty fine with the nerfs those sets got. what annoys me are the misguided buffs, the buffs that not only don’t solve the problem they’re trying to fix, but show that the dev team has a gross misunderstanding of what the problem is in the first place.

so again: my problem aren’t the nerfs, my problem are the buffs that don’t really buff anything because the problem will remain.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Carpboy.7145:

BrunoBRS.5178:

that said, i’m starting to lose faith in the balance team’s handling of the thief profession. even the buffs they gave us felt incredibly misguided.

Lets be honest tho, what would they possibly buff on sd or dp without making them OP? They were incredibly good sets before the patch, sd acro was almost unbeatable 1v1. After the patch theyll still be very strong.

did you finish reading my post? i don’t even touch on S/D or D/P. in fact i’m pretty fine with the nerfs those sets got. what annoys me are the misguided buffs, the buffs that not only don’t solve the problem they’re trying to fix, but show that the dev team has a gross misunderstanding of what the problem is in the first place.

so again: my problem aren’t the nerfs, my problem are the buffs that don’t really buff anything because the problem will remain.

Actually, i replied that before you edited all the other stuff in. Which i completely agree with. The “buffs” they did are meaningless. Sure people may mess around with them for a bit after the patch, but they still won’t see any serious play.

I’m agreeing with Bruno 100%. I feel like its an obvious observation. Yeah our weapon sets are up and down all the time and definitely need improvement on a few+.

I believe the main fault in the thief profession is not that one skill they nerf in our weapon set, but the lack of fluency in our traits and most definitely our utilities.

our utility skills (venoms, traps) are completely outdated. Like said before, the misunderstanding from the team is daunting. They’ve focused so much attention on venom share this past year and yet… Still hardly see anyone using it. No one wants it. We want a complete change to that system (atleast most of us)

traps… Lol. The fact that traps still exist in the thief inventory makes me..idk stunned yet not surprised.

Dancing dagger is bad. Death blossom is bad. This nerf to LS is bad. Choking gas ..bad. P/P is very bad. Venom share is bad and mostly useless. Traps..lol.

The problem is us thieves are too good. We have been nerfed to the underworld, yet we still manage to win fights. That my friends is showing the mistaken Dev team that we need to be more equalized in their eyes, because they simply dont know like we do.

Solution: start losing. Then buffs will come.

apologies for the rant. At work using the phone. +1 for slacking off.

Carpboy.7145:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Carpboy.7145:

BrunoBRS.5178:

that said, i’m starting to lose faith in the balance team’s handling of the thief profession. even the buffs they gave us felt incredibly misguided.

Lets be honest tho, what would they possibly buff on sd or dp without making them OP? They were incredibly good sets before the patch, sd acro was almost unbeatable 1v1. After the patch theyll still be very strong.

did you finish reading my post? i don’t even touch on S/D or D/P. in fact i’m pretty fine with the nerfs those sets got. what annoys me are the misguided buffs, the buffs that not only don’t solve the problem they’re trying to fix, but show that the dev team has a gross misunderstanding of what the problem is in the first place.

so again: my problem aren’t the nerfs, my problem are the buffs that don’t really buff anything because the problem will remain.

Actually, i replied that before you edited all the other stuff in. Which i completely agree with. The “buffs” they did are meaningless. Sure people may mess around with them for a bit after the patch, but they still won’t see any serious play.

i don’t recall having to edit most of that stuff in, but i’ll take your word for it :P

but yeah, i’ve already said everything i had to say. i proposed some reworks to venoms and their traits on the balance forum, and i went a bit more in depth with the problem with our buffs there too, so i’ll just link the threads and call it a day.

venom thread

thief balance overview

nickxnickx.5401:

The problem is us thieves are too good. We have been nerfed to the underworld, yet we still manage to win fights. That my friends is showing the mistaken Dev team that we need to be more equalized in their eyes, because they simply dont know like we do.

Solution: start losing. Then buffs will come.

apologies for the rant. At work using the phone. +1 for slacking off.

The problem is that the thief class pushes all other zerker spec out of the meta. Best mobility, best survivabilty and easy to apply burst. Either buff the zerker specs of other classes so they are equaly good or nerf one of those three things. I dont see any chance for a buff bevor one of those two things happen.

I disagree on best survivability. Simply stealth and run away doesn’t count as survivability to me. (if that was what you were entailing) sure you survive, but it tends to lead to less good fights. If you’re talking evade…sure that’s nice, but far from the best. Mesmer, guardian, ele, and necro I would say have better survivability (necro somewhat even). Best mobility …yeah we do. Mesmers are close though. Easy to apply burst. I think warriors have that one.

but it goes back to, “its not one thing”. Its the functionality of our class. With traits, utilities, and weapon skills, they simply don’t match. The class in general needs a rework. Not an overhaul, but definitely some more care and thought.

Mayama.1854:

nickxnickx.5401:

The problem is us thieves are too good. We have been nerfed to the underworld, yet we still manage to win fights. That my friends is showing the mistaken Dev team that we need to be more equalized in their eyes, because they simply dont know like we do.

Solution: start losing. Then buffs will come.

apologies for the rant. At work using the phone. +1 for slacking off.

The problem is that the thief class pushes all other zerker spec out of the meta. Best mobility, best survivabilty and easy to apply burst. Either buff the zerker specs of other classes so they are equaly good or nerf one of those three things. I dont see any chance for a buff bevor one of those two things happen.

i wouldn’t call it best survivability. the thief is very much a class that, by design, can’t let anything through or they die. so we’re given plenty of active defense tools, and we usually pick one or two of them to specialize into: blinds, evades, and stealth.

it’s potentially frustrating for the other player because a good thief won’t let a single attack land, so the other player can feel like he’s wasting his time, when he’s making the thief burn through his resources. the moment the thief falters and the other player lands a hit, it’ll be a big hit, because any hit is a big hit on thief.

nickxnickx.5401:

but it goes back to, “its not one thing”. Its the functionality of our class. With traits, utilities, and weapon skills, they simply don’t match. The class in general needs a rework. Not an overhaul, but definitely some more care and thought.

You could actually say that about any class exept the top dogs, like mesmers and necros are in the same boat just UP right now. Eles got buffed and bam supertanky healingmachines that deal massive damage. Only warriors and guardians seem to be always in a good spot (you can argue about warriors but I guess you know what I mean).

Mayama.1854:

nickxnickx.5401:

The problem is us thieves are too good. We have been nerfed to the underworld, yet we still manage to win fights. That my friends is showing the mistaken Dev team that we need to be more equalized in their eyes, because they simply dont know like we do.

Solution: start losing. Then buffs will come.

apologies for the rant. At work using the phone. +1 for slacking off.

The problem is that the thief class pushes all other zerker spec out of the meta. Best mobility, best survivabilty and easy to apply burst. Either buff the zerker specs of other classes so they are equaly good or nerf one of those three things. I dont see any chance for a buff bevor one of those two things happen.

If you think thief has best survivability, you don’t play much PvP. If you are referring to other game modes, that might be different.

the main problem of the thief which anet cant seem to handle is the stealth
true community may qq on it but an average player by now knows how to deal with it

thieves need some good group utilities to be helpful with wvw and pvp

this is why i think they are making the change in venom aura which i dont think many group will take thieves just for it (maybe as nich spot) as the thief will be a sitting duck every 36 sec icd on venom

also warrior getting buff on their GS dmg , mesmer on their scepter etc while thief dont as against stealth mechanism

so thieves still be playing s/d d/p and p/d with no mega changes , still 1v1 mainly in wvw and not group play in wvw and pvp as other class do it better

conclusion: nothing will change

The mesmer changes haven’t even been released, yet and people are already qq’ing…don’t worry, unless ArenaNet seriously break with their tradition, there will be hefty nerfs for us mesmers.

Also, in WvW there is still P/D condi which could be played by a toast and still roll over a mesmer.

messiah.1908:

the main problem of the thief which anet cant seem to handle is the stealth
true community may qq on it but an average player by now knows how to deal with it

thieves need some good group utilities to be helpful with wvw and pvp

this is why i think they are making the change in venom aura which i dont think many group will take thieves just for it (maybe as nich spot) as the thief will be a sitting duck every 36 sec icd on venom

also warrior getting buff on their GS dmg , mesmer on their scepter etc while thief dont as against stealth mechanism

so thieves still be playing s/d d/p and p/d with no mega changes , still 1v1 mainly in wvw and not group play in wvw and pvp as other class do it better

conclusion: nothing will change

thieves need reliable ranged AoE to be accepted in the GWEN meta. they can’t do it, and they’re too squishy for melee train, so they are relegated to roaming, or spiking random eles that aren’t looking behind them. it’s the same for rangers and mesmers, no proper AoE power.

I think what mayama was trying to say was thief is the most survivable, out of all the other classes zerker builds. Which is very true. No other profession has access to the active defense a thief does, and that doesn’t change regardless of how glassy you go. One of the main reasons to bring a thief is to shut down squishies, aka shatter mesmers, lich/power necros, staff or fresh air eles, really anything that dishes out a ton of dmg at the cost of defense. These types of builds will absolutely wreck teamfights with good positioning, unless of course you have a thief that can port through walls, stealth, blind/evades all the opponents big hits. Thief is the apex predator against these classes. Is that a bad thing? Well, no, because you can always bring your own thief to counter the enemies thief. But if the enemies thief is better than yours…then GG.

The reason for the most thief nerfs – at least for the most “Thief is OP” Threads – is the stealth mechanic, which is overpowered but not the thief.
Stealth is also the reason why PU Mesmer are nearly unkillable.

But only because they have the most/best access to stealth, the people think the thief is the problem, but that’s just wrong. (class=!=gamemechanic)

But why is stealth so strong?
Well, I think that comes from two things.

First, that all classes was created and balanced for the PvE part of this game.

And second, that they balance now over PvP, a different game mode, with different requirements, and don’t split, between PvE and PvP (sPvP/WvW).

Except for stealth is nearly every other trait or skill underpowered.

How BrunoBRS already wrote, seems the balanceteam to be blind.
They don’t know what they do, because they can’t or wont see the real problems, which the classes have.

Have they no notion of balance, have they no notion of the classes, or is them user friendliness more important than a generally gamebalance?

I don’t know it and I don’t care a pap for it, but we and all the other classes must life with that for two years now.

Carpboy.7145:

Thief is the apex predator against these classes. Is that a bad thing? Well, no, because you can always bring your own thief to counter the enemies thief. But if the enemies thief is better than yours…then GG.

Well it makes the meta stale and limits the pool of builds that can be played. Its one of the main reasons for the hybrid/bunker meta we have now.

Imo the general thief whine comes from some gimmicky WvW specs that are very good at 1v1 but cant do anything else. The second reason is that it feels really frustraiting if you cant hit someone cause he stealthes or dodges constantly. Thats why you dont see so many whine threads about 1v1 specs of other classes like mesmer, necro or engi. You can at least hit them constantly, if it actually helps you win the fight doesnt matter because they dont feel so helpless if they can at least fight back.

messiah.1908:

the main problem of the thief which anet cant seem to handle is the stealth
true community may qq on it but an average player by now knows how to deal with it

You deal with stealth by guessing/predicting, mainly, and a bit of luck. That’s not a good game mechanic given that it can’t really be overcome with skill. Sure, it’s great for those classes(almost necessary), but it’s still an incredibly overpowered mechanic taken on it’s own merits(can enter in combat, basically undetectable, full movement). I’ll just call it a design flaw and arenanet would be way too proud to ever remove it from the game, so it’s here to stay and be coped with.

The problem with thief arises when you combine stealth with other things like mobility, evasion, shadowstep, blind, potent burst damage. It’s really the full array of thief class features and how well they come together that makes the class pretty formidable.

I also don’t buy into the idea that thieves are done the moment they take a hit or two. They’re one of those most forgiving classes when it comes to disengaging, so they can easily back away, stealth, what have you and get to safety without dying.

I think the solution to balancing thief is what they’re doing currently—just make small changes and gauge how viable thief remains in the meta game. Drastic overhauls would be unwarranted and might be too severe, cause new problems to crop up.

mooty.4560:

messiah.1908:

the main problem of the thief which anet cant seem to handle is the stealth
true community may qq on it but an average player by now knows how to deal with it

You deal with stealth by guessing/predicting, mainly, and a bit of luck. That’s not a good game mechanic given that it can’t really be overcome with skill. Sure, it’s great for those classes(almost necessary), but it’s still an incredibly overpowered mechanic taken on it’s own merits(can enter in combat, basically undetectable, full movement). I’ll just call it a design flaw and arenanet would be way too proud to ever remove it from the game, so it’s here to stay and be coped with.

The problem with thief arises when you combine stealth with other things like mobility, evasion, shadowstep, blind, potent burst damage. It’s really the full array of thief class features and how well they come together that makes the class pretty formidable.

I also don’t buy into the idea that thieves are done the moment they take a hit or two. They’re one of those most forgiving classes when it comes to disengaging, so they can easily back away, stealth, what have you and get to safety without dying.

I think the solution to balancing thief is what they’re doing currently—just make small changes and gauge how viable thief remains in the meta game. Drastic overhauls would be unwarranted and might be too severe, cause new problems to crop up.

I always thought the way to dip back into stealth in the middle of combat was a strange mechanic. Nice, but strange. I came from a game that had permanent stealth available that disengaged upon the first hit you made and then you couldn’t get back into stealth until a certain amount of time of being out of combat passed, which meant no dealing or taking any damage. Personally, I’d like to see a game like that again.

mooty.4560:

messiah.1908:

the main problem of the thief which anet cant seem to handle is the stealth
true community may qq on it but an average player by now knows how to deal with it

You deal with stealth by guessing/predicting, mainly, and a bit of luck. That’s not a good game mechanic given that it can’t really be overcome with skill.

not so true … the stealth isnt the problem. the ppl who think they can just auto attack and kill are!. so anet want to grant their wish its not guessing its knowing your opponent play style

tip: if thief went to short stealth get rdy to be burst so move move move and cc around you . or count 3 sec and dodge.
if thief went to SR or cc/aoe the area or get back for 15 sec range
believe me it will help you 80% on the time

p/s i went on my newly condi ranger and took 2 dp thieves just with traps and entangle when they stealth to BS HS chain. luck ?

messiah.1908:

mooty.4560:

messiah.1908:

the main problem of the thief which anet cant seem to handle is the stealth
true community may qq on it but an average player by now knows how to deal with it

You deal with stealth by guessing/predicting, mainly, and a bit of luck. That’s not a good game mechanic given that it can’t really be overcome with skill.

Wo

not so true … the stealth isnt the problem. the ppl who think they can just auto attack and kill are!. so anet want to grant their wish its not guessing its knowing your opponent play style

tip: if thief went to short stealth get rdy to be burst so move move move and cc around you . or count 3 sec and dodge.
if thief went to SR or cc/aoe the area or get back for 15 sec range
believe me it will help you 80% on the time

p/s i went on my newly condi ranger and took 2 dp thieves just with traps and entangle when they stealth to BS HS chain. luck ?

I don’t think you read my entire post. I said stealth is a poorly implemented mechanic, but could be much more balanced if more restrictive as one player outlined. Stealth is annoying but stealth alone is by no means the problem with the thief class.

Shockwave.1230:

I’m looking at the language used in the balance blog released for the feature pack and comparing it to the changes we know they want to implement via the Skill Bar episodes.

In addition to the nerfs thief is getting directly, it seems like thief will be nerfed indirectly by the lack of power creep it’s getting and the gains the other professions are getting in power creep. But it’s hard to say without knowing details around the elementalist, guardian, necromancer, and Mesmer changes.

The whole “balance” concept is based on relativity. Last update on Warriors, for example, when their Healing Signet was nerfed, it was a relative buff to Thieves and other non-Warrior class. The addition of Stone Heart for Elementalist was a relative nerf to all crit based build on top of the other crit build nerfs.

Even the upcoming Venom Aura change is a nerf — albeit nobody sees it yet.

Hurray for ArenaNet!!!

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

I always thought the way to dip back into stealth in the middle of combat was a strange mechanic. Nice, but strange. I came from a game that had permanent stealth available that disengaged upon the first hit you made and then you couldn’t get back into stealth until a certain amount of time of being out of combat passed, which meant no dealing or taking any damage. Personally, I’d like to see a game like that again.

that’s actually really bad in a multiplayer scenario, because to the other player, he just got one-shotted without any way of reacting, and to the stealth player, he can’t do anything until he’s back into stealth.

it makes for poor gameplay on both sides. at least GW2’s “active stealth” style lets people deny thieves their stealth, and it only lasts a couple seconds.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

I always thought the way to dip back into stealth in the middle of combat was a strange mechanic. Nice, but strange. I came from a game that had permanent stealth available that disengaged upon the first hit you made and then you couldn’t get back into stealth until a certain amount of time of being out of combat passed, which meant no dealing or taking any damage. Personally, I’d like to see a game like that again.

that’s actually really bad in a multiplayer scenario, because to the other player, he just got one-shotted without any way of reacting, and to the stealth player, he can’t do anything until he’s back into stealth.

it makes for poor gameplay on both sides. at least GW2’s “active stealth” style lets people deny thieves their stealth, and it only lasts a couple seconds.

The game I’m talking about was centered around MMO gameplay that is similar to GW2 WvW. If I’m not mistaken in fact, some of the original devs from that game came here. The concept in GW2 WvW is very nearly the same as the older game, just different combat mechanics (there was no evade-dodging) and a slower style compared to GW2’s faster style. It worked perfect in that game and was quite balanced.

You couldn’t just one shot someone either. First hit was definately high damage, but the following sequential attacks were very dependant on the skill of the stealther and the skill of the target.

Regardless, I do agree that the faster pace nature of this game wouldn’t quite work with that particular stealth mechanic. It potentially could, if it was balanced properly, but that’d also require a rehaul to the thief prof. I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

lol traps lol lol lol lol lol lol lol thief traps

Worst problem of thieves is not stealth…it is spammability on dodge / evasion / strong skill

Nerfed by relativity confirmed

Very much so Med guards got a pretty solid buff which was already counter to thief combine this with the thief nerfs that are coming very sad.

On the plus side, at least we can run away better than any class still -.-

Jugglemonkey.8741:

On the plus side, at least we can run away better than any class still -.-

Usain Bolt wars disagree with you.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

On the plus side, at least we can run away better than any class still -.-

Depends on how you define running away. Land-speed-wise, gs/s warrior has superior mobility to the thief. Objectively, the only way to say they have the best running potential is if stealth is mentioned.

DeceiverX.8361:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

On the plus side, at least we can run away better than any class still -.-

Depends on how you define running away. Land-speed-wise, gs/s warrior has superior mobility to the thief. Objectively, the only way to say they have the best running potential is if stealth is mentioned.

defined in practical terms- best tools for getting out of a sticky situation, I gotta say thief. Shadowstep is a double stun break that can really trick people, and shadow refuge is a broken free fight reset unless they have a knock back

DeceiverX.8361:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

On the plus side, at least we can run away better than any class still -.-

Depends on how you define running away. Land-speed-wise, gs/s warrior has superior mobility to the thief. Objectively, the only way to say they have the best running potential is if stealth is mentioned.

They might be faster than us in a straight line, but we can then just sword port/shadowstep back to where we started, leaving poor bolt waaaaaaaay over there :P

But seriously, I’m gonna be playing ranger for a little while since they have lots of new toys and my thief didn’t really get anything useful this patch. I wish they’d just give it up with venoms already -.-

Jugglemonkey.8741:

They might be faster than us in a straight line, but we can then just sword port/shadowstep back to where we started, leaving poor bolt waaaaaaaay over there :P

The problem is the opposite: not fleeing from them, but catching up to them when they flee. It can be done, but it’s soooo kitten long to do it (and sometimes you can’t even catch up to them).

Well…if nothing else, meditation guards will be especially scary for thieves. I mean, they were hard counters before, but at least they were relatively rare to see. I anticipate that we’ll see a good bit more of them around after the latest changes…

Jugglemonkey.8741:

On the plus side, at least we can run away better than any class still -.-

which means the QQ will stay

until thief can’t burst, can’t apply condis, can’t dodge, and can’t escape fights, the QQ won’t stop. it’s like every thief post by someone that isn’t a thief is “HOW DARE THEY BE GOOD AT SOMETHING? NEEEEERF”

Galandil.9641:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

They might be faster than us in a straight line, but we can then just sword port/shadowstep back to where we started, leaving poor bolt waaaaaaaay over there :P

The problem is the opposite: not fleeing from them, but catching up to them when they flee. It can be done, but it’s soooo kitten long to do it (and sometimes you can’t even catch up to them).

Yeah, fair point that. I was just playing devil’s advocate really :P

As for med guards, I haven’t seen the patch notes for them yet but the number of them that mindlessly chase you into your cluster bombs and die is remarkable. If the players keep being that aggressive, then there’s probably not too much to worry about. I probably don’t run into that many good medi guards though.

metas can be strange !

and people sometimes play mindless with out a strategy just trying to get a kill …

I’m starting to think that they could make leaps and bounds on the balance front if they simply doubled HP for every class in PvP, and balanced from there.

GC burst would still be valuable, but classes wouldn’t be able to build glass cannons that downed targets in mere seconds. Conditions would need to be reapplied more, which would create more desire for heals and cleansing focused builds to exist in the meta. The way HP pools exist now, only 1v1 fights have and chance at a decent back and forth before a clear victor emerges, but the thief’s escape mechanisms make them too able to take a position of “win or not fight” while other classes are limited to “win or lose” doubling HP would mean thieves would be on more equal ground, they’d have to scrap a bit after a burst like everyone else and commit to the fight to win it rather than immediately being able to ditch it if the burst fails, and that would open the door for other glass specs to compete for their 1v1 win. This wouldn’t remove the thief’s ability to selectively engage, which i think is a hallmark feature of the class that should remain, but it would bring us in line with how other glass specs have to sacrifice some escape utility.

Teamfights are often completely determined in the initial 5 seconds of combat, often before either party has a change to make full use of their tools and team composition. As long as that’s the case, I don’t feel like there’s room in the game for support and bunker to share space with glassy damage specs, the game will always revert to ‘everyone is a bunker so that they can use all their tools’ or ‘everyone is glass so that they can win where it counts’

PopeUrban.2578:

I’m starting to think that they could make leaps and bounds on the balance front if they simply doubled HP for every class in PvP, and balanced from there.

GC burst would still be valuable, but classes wouldn’t be able to build glass cannons that downed targets in mere seconds. Conditions would need to be reapplied more, which would create more desire for heals and cleansing focused builds to exist in the meta. The way HP pools exist now, only 1v1 fights have and chance at a decent back and forth before a clear victor emerges, but the thief’s escape mechanisms make them too able to take a position of “win or not fight” while other classes are limited to “win or lose” doubling HP would mean thieves would be on more equal ground, they’d have to scrap a bit after a burst like everyone else and commit to the fight to win it rather than immediately being able to ditch it if the burst fails, and that would open the door for other glass specs to compete for their 1v1 win. This wouldn’t remove the thief’s ability to selectively engage, which i think is a hallmark feature of the class that should remain, but it would bring us in line with how other glass specs have to sacrifice some escape utility.

Teamfights are often completely determined in the initial 5 seconds of combat, often before either party has a change to make full use of their tools and team composition. As long as that’s the case, I don’t feel like there’s room in the game for support and bunker to share space with glassy damage specs, the game will always revert to ‘everyone is a bunker so that they can use all their tools’ or ‘everyone is glass so that they can win where it counts’

it would just lead to more immortal bunkers, really.

i think the numbers are fine, it just comes down to balancing the defense mechanisms of each class. eles get to outheal almost anything when they spec defensively (read: water), thieves have a bunch of damage denial skills through blinds, teleports and evades, etc.

BrunoBRS.5178:

PopeUrban.2578:

I’m starting to think that they could make leaps and bounds on the balance front if they simply doubled HP for every class in PvP, and balanced from there.

GC burst would still be valuable, but classes wouldn’t be able to build glass cannons that downed targets in mere seconds. Conditions would need to be reapplied more, which would create more desire for heals and cleansing focused builds to exist in the meta. The way HP pools exist now, only 1v1 fights have and chance at a decent back and forth before a clear victor emerges, but the thief’s escape mechanisms make them too able to take a position of “win or not fight” while other classes are limited to “win or lose” doubling HP would mean thieves would be on more equal ground, they’d have to scrap a bit after a burst like everyone else and commit to the fight to win it rather than immediately being able to ditch it if the burst fails, and that would open the door for other glass specs to compete for their 1v1 win. This wouldn’t remove the thief’s ability to selectively engage, which i think is a hallmark feature of the class that should remain, but it would bring us in line with how other glass specs have to sacrifice some escape utility.

Teamfights are often completely determined in the initial 5 seconds of combat, often before either party has a change to make full use of their tools and team composition. As long as that’s the case, I don’t feel like there’s room in the game for support and bunker to share space with glassy damage specs, the game will always revert to ‘everyone is a bunker so that they can use all their tools’ or ‘everyone is glass so that they can win where it counts’

it would just lead to more immortal bunkers, really.

i think the numbers are fine, it just comes down to balancing the defense mechanisms of each class. eles get to outheal almost anything when they spec defensively (read: water), thieves have a bunch of damage denial skills through blinds, teleports and evades, etc.

I dunno though, I mean, if we talk about enhancing base HP, i don’t think values/ratios would need to be as high as they are on bunker abilities. The advantage to base HP increases is that they affect everyone, while adjustments to defensive mechanics are pretty hit and miss. Adjusting water heals doesn’t change the game for dd glass builds for instance, but doubling hp (or just increasing it) across the board would, and I feel it’s a lot easier to dial down defenses incrementally than it is to dial down damage in a game with the possibility of a 5-6 second TTK in 1v1 fights. I feel like when that’s possible, even against an AFK player, it’s really difficult to balance spank versus tank.

Either way there’s still a lot that needs to be done in the way of build diversity.

PopeUrban.2578:

BrunoBRS.5178:

PopeUrban.2578:

I’m starting to think that they could make leaps and bounds on the balance front if they simply doubled HP for every class in PvP, and balanced from there.

GC burst would still be valuable, but classes wouldn’t be able to build glass cannons that downed targets in mere seconds. Conditions would need to be reapplied more, which would create more desire for heals and cleansing focused builds to exist in the meta. The way HP pools exist now, only 1v1 fights have and chance at a decent back and forth before a clear victor emerges, but the thief’s escape mechanisms make them too able to take a position of “win or not fight” while other classes are limited to “win or lose” doubling HP would mean thieves would be on more equal ground, they’d have to scrap a bit after a burst like everyone else and commit to the fight to win it rather than immediately being able to ditch it if the burst fails, and that would open the door for other glass specs to compete for their 1v1 win. This wouldn’t remove the thief’s ability to selectively engage, which i think is a hallmark feature of the class that should remain, but it would bring us in line with how other glass specs have to sacrifice some escape utility.

Teamfights are often completely determined in the initial 5 seconds of combat, often before either party has a change to make full use of their tools and team composition. As long as that’s the case, I don’t feel like there’s room in the game for support and bunker to share space with glassy damage specs, the game will always revert to ‘everyone is a bunker so that they can use all their tools’ or ‘everyone is glass so that they can win where it counts’

it would just lead to more immortal bunkers, really.

i think the numbers are fine, it just comes down to balancing the defense mechanisms of each class. eles get to outheal almost anything when they spec defensively (read: water), thieves have a bunch of damage denial skills through blinds, teleports and evades, etc.

I dunno though, I mean, if we talk about enhancing base HP, i don’t think values/ratios would need to be as high as they are on bunker abilities. The advantage to base HP increases is that they affect everyone, while adjustments to defensive mechanics are pretty hit and miss. Adjusting water heals doesn’t change the game for dd glass builds for instance, but doubling hp (or just increasing it) across the board would, and I feel it’s a lot easier to dial down defenses incrementally than it is to dial down damage in a game with the possibility of a 5-6 second TTK in 1v1 fights. I feel like when that’s possible, even against an AFK player, it’s really difficult to balance spank versus tank.

Either way there’s still a lot that needs to be done in the way of build diversity.

look at sPvP. the bunker is the guy that can soak up a lot of damage so he can stay on point for a long time. then you have the damage guy(s), who focuses on taking that bunker down super fast so his team can take the point over.

if you double everyone’s base HP, you’re just making fights drag on longer, benefiting the bunkers, who are holding on the point. moreover, the effect of a damage dealer is diminished, to the point where you’re better off just not fighting the bunker, but rather just CCing the bunkers that are alone. it would discourage fighting, and encourage “eh, i’ll just run to a point that has less people and decap it, fighting is too much effort”.