Guild Wars 2

As someone who plays thief a lot (only character I roam with/ WvW for that matter), I realize that there are certain things about our profession that are iffy at times. Namely D/P and the sheer amount of blinds it offers. To be quite honest, d/p seems to be a crutch of sorts for players learning thief, which I suppose is fine, but part of me still feels like it’s just too much. I roam with D/D on my thief, but I used to use d/p for quite a while, but I guess I moved on. Now while I kill plenty of d/p thieves, I see how much of a god forsaken pain in the butt they are. Most of the hate we get as a profession originates from d/p and its ability to mitigate so much damage with easily-accessed stealth and loads of blinds. However, I don’t see what can really be done without totally messing the weapon set up. I’ve thought of maybe removing the blind on d/p 3, to reduce the sheer amount of blinds the build offers without ruining anything, but I’m not sure. What do you guys, as avid thief players, think? Is d/p just a little over the top, or is it fine?
Also, this is by no means a QQ thread. I simply mean to bring forth a constructive discussion about our class.

Maybe if 3 of the skills weren’t so redundant with eachother the weaponset would not be a massive pain in the kitten to deal with and at the same time, become something other than a trolly build.

While the stealth is easily accessable, it is initiative heavy making stealthing with that set almost foolish. But the biggest thing is BP and how it doesn’t compare to Shadow Shot in terms of utility. The set is meant to chase with 2 strong gap closers and black powder simply does not fit in.

I’ve seen this idea kick around the forums for a bit now but what if certain skills aside from the Dual Wield skills were to change depending on what was equipped? For example I posted an idea where going p/p would turn vital shot into a more powerful version without bleeds. Why not do that with other skills like black powder as well?

Just change Black Powder’s field from Smoke to Dark. It keeps the joyous blinding, but removes the easy stealth which is what most players complain about.

I used D/P for leveling but I soon found out as I got to the harder content that the crutch was making me hate this profession. I’d spam 5 and AA and if I forgot/missed getting the 5 up I’d be dead. I moved on to other professions but I want the PonyBow, it’s the only legendary I truly want. Getting one on a ranger looked like something I didn’t want to do…so I came back here. Watched some videos on the different play styles and decided to try D/D and fell in love. I stay alive far longer being a D/D than I ever did with D/P because I have to pay attention. So I fully believe that D/P is a crutch but some people love that play and power to them, it’s just not for me.

I sort of agree with the smoke to dark field…it’s too easy and cheap to spam into stealth and might get people to stop kittening about this profession. We get nerfed hard because the spammy builds kitten off people.

When I was first on my thief I used D/P because it was super strong being able to chain stealth with 4 heart seekers. I also realized that it was a super crutch for players so I started playing D/D. Now I am trying to get myself off of the SA trait line but I am having a really hard doing that in solo roaming especially in outnumber fights. But I can run it in group setting where I don’t take aggro.

Anyway back to D/P… the two strengths of D/P is insane blinds and on demand stealth. The #5 skill offers both of these which is why it should be the target of nerfs. Without the stealth from the smoke field + HR there is no point to the weapon set. Nerfing the on demand stealth will destroy the build and make it completely unusable. Dagger main-hand relies on stealth to do the majority of its damage with backstab.

Idea #1 – Completely remove blind on #5
Idea #2 – A player can only be blinded once per smoke field
Idea #3 – If a player is in the field for more than 1 second they are blinded and get rid of the blinding projectile.

EDIT : Idea #4 – Make it so if a the BP + HR combo hits a player the thief does not stealth. I think that would make it less spammy and have to use a little more brain power to use the build.

My favorite idea would be idea #3 because it offers for good counter play while still keeping D/P as a viable weapon set for thief. When the field goes down the player has a second to dodge out of it to avoid being blinded, and it also allows for a player to run in and deal damage before being blinded.

Azawrath.7304:

Anyway back to D/P… the two strengths of D/P is insane blinds and on demand stealth. The #5 skill offers both of these which is why it should be the target of nerfs. Without the stealth from the smoke field + HR there is no point to the weapon set. Nerfing the on demand stealth will destroy the build and make it completely unusable. Dagger main-hand relies on stealth to do the majority of its damage with backstab.

There is still a point to the weapon set without the stealth. It’s called close ranged annoyance. Anything that gets close to you will end up still getting blinded by the field while you have free reign to wreck them completely. The less stealth spam we have on our weapon sets, the better it is for us because the QQ about thief will stop, people will start seeing our limited survivability outside of stealth, and Anet can start buffing instead of nerfing. Not to mention I really don’t think we should have access to such easy stealth (outside of utilities) without easy counters (such as how easy it is to counter CnD).

Dp isn’t a crutch, unless you use it with SA. I can roam perfectly fine with dp trickery. Are there some matchups i know i won’t win? (Most things condi) You bet. So i dance around them a bit to try and gauge their skill level. If i know ill be able to kill them i stick around. If not i shadow step away and find one of the many other people in WvW fight. And that’s ok with me

I do agree with you that D/P stealth should not be so easy and I do understand that it generates all the QQ for thief. If that is going to happen with D/P than should it need a buff? I really don’t know if it should or not… maybe lessen the initiative of #5? Or maybe have the projectile from #5 steal life (which I guess it would since its a dark field).

Another question we have to ask ourselves is “Would you play D/P after the nerf.” I hate D/P the current way it is since it is easy mode so I don’t care if its nerfed to the ground. I never planned on using it anyways. Most of us are blinded (Haha D/P) by the hatred for D/P and don’t care if it stays a viable set after the nerf we want.

We need some D/P player feedback in here to see if they would still use D/P after the nerf.

I’ve lurked on the forums a long time and there is more QQ about S/D evade spam (no counters to evade) than D/P. So if anet is going to nerf something because thief is OP, it’s going to be S/D first, not D/P.

Carpboy.7145:

Dp isn’t a crutch, unless you use it with SA. I can roam perfectly fine with dp trickery. Are there some matchups i know i won’t win? (Most things condi) You bet. So i dance around them a bit to try and gauge their skill level. If i know ill be able to kill them i stick around. If not i shadow step away and find one of the many other people in WvW fight. And that’s ok with me

Your post bring up another point for D/P being very strong.
Having the ability to dance around a player with D/P and have the ability to leave shows that D/P is still strong even without SA. Compared to S/D or D/D it is very hard to dance around an enemy without being engaged.

Azawrath.7304:

Carpboy.7145:

Dp isn’t a crutch, unless you use it with SA. I can roam perfectly fine with dp trickery. Are there some matchups i know i won’t win? (Most things condi) You bet. So i dance around them a bit to try and gauge their skill level. If i know ill be able to kill them i stick around. If not i shadow step away and find one of the many other people in WvW fight. And that’s ok with me

Your post bring up another point for D/P being very strong.
Having the ability to dance around a player with D/P and have the ability to leave shows that D/P is still strong even without SA. Compared to S/D or D/D it is very hard to dance around an enemy without being engaged.

Only dp can use shadowstep? Sd cant dance? Wat

I didn’t say leave, I said dance around. From your post it seems that you could poke and dance around the enemy without having to worry about being attacked. Both S/D and D/D have to get into melee range which gives a chance to fight back. S/D does have a lot of dodges and mobility which allows it to jump around but its a lot easier to catch than a D/P thief. Once a D/P thief goes stealth I might never see it again… That what I’m saying

Carpboy.7145:

Dp isn’t a crutch, unless you use it with SA. I can roam perfectly fine with dp trickery. Are there some matchups i know i won’t win? (Most things condi) You bet. So i dance around them a bit to try and gauge their skill level. If i know ill be able to kill them i stick around. If not i shadow step away and find one of the many other people in WvW fight. And that’s ok with me

The problem is that the vast majority of D/P players do use shadows arts. I do not feel that SA should be nerfed, because D/D heavily relies on it.

I feel like removing the ability to stealth will completely ruin the weapon set, and I don’t really want that. What if the following is done:
1: Black Powder’s blinding shot is removed, and only puts the smoke field down
2:Shadow Shot: blind replaced with a cripple (vulnerability/weakness maybe too; anything really)
I believe that something like this might make D/P thieves much easier to deal with, while having the set viable.

Quakeman.9378:

I feel like removing the ability to stealth will completely ruin the weapon set, and I don’t really want that. What if the following is done:
1: Black Powder’s blinding shot is removed, and only puts the smoke field down
2:Shadow Shot: blind replaced with a cripple
I believe that something like this might make D/P thieves much easier to deal with.

+1
I had exactly that in mind but thought of vulnerability/weakness instead of cripple. But that works too.

IMO shadow shot is fine, its the stealth spam that’s an issue allowing to many screw ups and letting you reset on demand. I don’t know any thief using d/p in wvw that doesn’t have a heavy investment into their initiative, so they always keep it on hand to escape if need be or reposition. It comes down to chain stealth where it becomes a time out which isn’t fun or fair game play. I believe it should come down to a nerf in the way combo finishers work off of combo fields.

1. Allow meld in shadows to effect combo skills (leap or blast on smoke field in this case)
2. Change the mechanic of combo finishers/fields to apply a lesser effect each time if used on the same field. For example: BPS→Leap(4 sec)→Leap(3 sec)→Leap(1 sec). So the DR doubles each time until its basically non existent. Between the time it took to turn around and leap, the old set up granted about ~7 seconds of stealth? (correct me if I’m wrong). This new set up would only get about ~5 seconds.

For those using 2/6/0/0/6 with dp they didn’t sit in stealth for very long anyways. They actually used it just to reposition and land a BS immediately so it doesn’t effect them. For those using x/x/6/x/x with dp they would have a better start but they would need to fuel a new BPS rapidly to fund their stealth up time which would mean a heavier investment into their initiative which means they just get weaker and weaker somewhere else. Even if they decide to carry smoke bomb and drop it on the smoke field, that field still applies DR towards them (although the skill itself would still grant 3-4 seconds depending on traits).

Nothing wrong with dp or SA trait line. Even with sa still other prof/builds stronger than thief. Other sets perform just as well as dp in group setting and game is not balanced around 1v1.

NinjaEd.3946:

IMO shadow shot is fine, its the stealth spam that’s an issue allowing to many screw ups and letting you reset on demand. I don’t know any thief using d/p in wvw that doesn’t have a heavy investment into their initiative, so they always keep it on hand to escape if need be or reposition. It comes down to chain stealth where it becomes a time out which isn’t fun or fair game play. I believe it should come down to a nerf in the way combo finishers work off of combo fields.

1. Allow meld in shadows to effect combo skills (leap or blast on smoke field in this case)
2. Change the mechanic of combo finishers/fields to apply a lesser effect each time if used on the same field. For example: BPS->Leap(4 sec)->Leap(3 sec)->Leap(1 sec). So the DR doubles each time until its basically non existent. Between the time it took to turn around and leap, the old set up granted about ~7 seconds of stealth? (correct me if I’m wrong). This new set up would only get about ~5 seconds.

For those using 2/6/0/0/6 with dp they didn’t sit in stealth for very long anyways. They actually used it just to reposition and land a BS immediately so it doesn’t effect them. For those using x/x/6/x/x with dp they would have a better start but they would need to fuel a new BPS rapidly to fund their stealth up time which would mean a heavier investment into their initiative which means they just get weaker and weaker somewhere else. Even if they decide to carry smoke bomb and drop it on the smoke field, that field still applies DR towards them (although the skill itself would still grant 3-4 seconds depending on traits).

An interesting idea I must say, but won’t this affect everyone? Including might stacking in PvE etc.

vincecontix.1264:

Nothing wrong with dp or SA trait line. Even with sa still other prof/builds stronger than thief. Other sets perform just as well as dp in group setting and game is not balanced around 1v1.

I think we’d all appreciate it if you elaborated a little more. We’ve all presented our reasoning for why things should change, but you you’ve said is that nothing should be changed. Also, I’m a tad sick of hearing the argument “game is not balanced around 1v1.” This isn’t just about 1v1 scenarios. In group scenarios, D/P does out-perform sets such as D/D if the player isn’t that proficient with the class. The Aoe blind fields allows a D/P thief to blind multiple people many times whilst maintaining an extremely high dps. D/D may have a slightly higher burst because of CnD, but you have to actually land a skill for it to have any burst whatsoever. This applies for both group fights and 1v1 fights. And for crying out loud, would a little balance in 1v1 scenarios be so bad?

Azawrath.7304:

I do agree with you that D/P stealth should not be so easy and I do understand that it generates all the QQ for thief. If that is going to happen with D/P than should it need a buff? I really don’t know if it should or not… maybe lessen the initiative of #5? Or maybe have the projectile from #5 steal life (which I guess it would since its a dark field).

Another question we have to ask ourselves is “Would you play D/P after the nerf.” I hate D/P the current way it is since it is easy mode so I don’t care if its nerfed to the ground. I never planned on using it anyways. Most of us are blinded (Haha D/P) by the hatred for D/P and don’t care if it stays a viable set after the nerf we want.

We need some D/P player feedback in here to see if they would still use D/P after the nerf.

If we changed more than the field from smoke to dark, there’s a chance of the move becoming too OP or too useless. Just a change to the field gets rid of the main annoyance of the D/P set (easy stealth), while keeps its usefulness as a blinding field and a quick blind on the enemy. This change also strengthens P/P by giving it the one thing that weapon set needs, some sustain (through projectile finishers that leech life) to make up for the lack of escape moves. Though to be honest, I would prefer the initiative being dropped to 5 instead of 6 if the field was changed.

Quakeman.9378:

I feel like removing the ability to stealth will completely ruin the weapon set, and I don’t really want that. What if the following is done:
1: Black Powder’s blinding shot is removed, and only puts the smoke field down
2:Shadow Shot: blind replaced with a cripple (vulnerability/weakness maybe too; anything really)

I believe that something like this might make D/P thieves much easier to deal with, while having the set viable.

If on demand stealth must stay (I think it should but should be nerfed) than not only must the BP blinding shot be removed but there needs to be an additional nerf to BP, maybe shortening the blind field duration.

I do not believe that shadow shot is the reason D/P is the OP weapon set that it currently is. Having shadow shot does not help with the blind spam ability of D/P but if the blinding bolt on BP is removed than I think the blind on shadow shot should be kept.

I only say this because the majority of the QQ I see comes from BP. Whether that be the on demand stealth in WvW or the strong blinding field in SpvP.

NinjaEd.3946:

IMO shadow shot is fine, its the stealth spam that’s an issue allowing to many screw ups and letting you reset on demand. I don’t know any thief using d/p in wvw that doesn’t have a heavy investment into their initiative, so they always keep it on hand to escape if need be or reposition. It comes down to chain stealth where it becomes a time out which isn’t fun or fair game play. I believe it should come down to a nerf in the way combo finishers work off of combo fields.

1. Allow meld in shadows to effect combo skills (leap or blast on smoke field in this case)
2. Change the mechanic of combo finishers/fields to apply a lesser effect each time if used on the same field. For example: BPS->Leap(4 sec)->Leap(3 sec)->Leap(1 sec). So the DR doubles each time until its basically non existent. Between the time it took to turn around and leap, the old set up granted about ~7 seconds of stealth? (correct me if I’m wrong). This new set up would only get about ~5 seconds.

For those using 2/6/0/0/6 with dp they didn’t sit in stealth for very long anyways. They actually used it just to reposition and land a BS immediately so it doesn’t effect them. For those using x/x/6/x/x with dp they would have a better start but they would need to fuel a new BPS rapidly to fund their stealth up time which would mean a heavier investment into their initiative which means they just get weaker and weaker somewhere else. Even if they decide to carry smoke bomb and drop it on the smoke field, that field still applies DR towards them (although the skill itself would still grant 3-4 seconds depending on traits).

I do not think nerfing combo finishers and combo fields will fix anything, it will end up doing more harm than good to this game. Many class and many guilds rely on might stacking, retaliation, stealth, and healing from combo fields, not just thieves.

RyuDragnier.9476:

If we changed more than the field from smoke to dark, there’s a chance of the move becoming too OP or too useless. Just a change to the field gets rid of the main annoyance of the D/P set (easy stealth), while keeps its usefulness as a blinding field and a quick blind on the enemy. This change also strengthens P/P by giving it the one thing that weapon set needs, some sustain (through projectile finishers that leech life) to make up for the lack of escape moves. Though to be honest, I would prefer the initiative being dropped to 5 instead of 6 if the field was changed.

While P/P would finally become a viable weapon set if #5 became a dark field, D/P would be destroyed imo. Like I stated before, would you or anyone use D/P if #5 was changed to a dark field?

I am not arguing that the on demand stealth is not the problem, it is, and the blind spam just adds to the problem. This is because once the thief is out of stealth and can be seen, players are hit with blinds making that 3 second window of revealed a lot safer for the thief. I think that on demand stealth needs to be nerfed hard, or both the on demand stealth and the blind spam both need to be dialed back a bit.

Shadow shot=1 blind BP=1 blind if it connects. I can’t control the idiot warrior that decided to stand inside the field and be perm blind. So i find that you really don’t have that many blinds unless you are facing a “full kitten ” class.

Edit: misspelled DPS. And who woulda known that
kitten


gets turned into kitten. TIL

Quakeman.9378:

Carpboy.7145:

Dp isn’t a crutch, unless you use it with SA. I can roam perfectly fine with dp trickery. Are there some matchups i know i won’t win? (Most things condi) You bet. So i dance around them a bit to try and gauge their skill level. If i know ill be able to kill them i stick around. If not i shadow step away and find one of the many other people in WvW fight. And that’s ok with me

The problem is that the vast majority of D/P players do use shadows arts. I do not feel that SA should be nerfed, because D/D heavily relies on it.

Thats a bit hypocritical. You don’t wanna nerf SA because that screws dd users. Ok thats fine i understand. But anything you do to dp won’t only nerf dp SA, itll also affect dp trickery. The trickery build HEAVILY relies on the blinds for survival since thats all they got.

Quakeman.9378:

I feel like removing the ability to stealth will completely ruin the weapon set, and I don’t really want that. What if the following is done:
1: Black Powder’s blinding shot is removed, and only puts the smoke field down
2:Shadow Shot: blind replaced with a cripple (vulnerability/weakness maybe too; anything really)
I believe that something like this might make D/P thieves much easier to deal with, while having the set viable.

This i would be ok with. If it was weakness and cripple

Platanos.8107:

I’ve lurked on the forums a long time and there is more QQ about S/D evade spam (no counters to evade) than D/P. So if anet is going to nerf something because thief is OP, it’s going to be S/D first, not D/P.

We are talking about WvW in this tread and in that mode S/D evade spam thieves arent that dangerous because you usuall fight in an open field. That means even after spamming your evades and dodges you are usually still in range of most ranged classes and eat some autoattacks. For example im roaming a bit with my engi right now in WvW and a fight against a S/D thieve goes like that. He trys to burst me, I bunker through or dodge and than he usually spams his evades to dodge the incoming counterattack. The difference is that after that typical opening of a S/D thief he is still in range of my e-gun and eats 5-10 bleed/fire/torment stacks bevor he can disappear. The lack of any cover or elevation makes it really hard for a S/D thief in WvW to win fights against specs with good range especially if they are full condi specced.

Actually the only real problem with D/P is the abuse of stealth with SA trait line. If you don’t know how to counter a blind then it’s your fault.
I think as said before to change Black Power to Dak field with 5ini instead of 6 and change the 4th skill of Pistol giving it something like 2x shots instead of 1 with half sec and it would be fine. This will make p/p viable and d/p still good.

Azawrath.7304:

RyuDragnier.9476:

If we changed more than the field from smoke to dark, there’s a chance of the move becoming too OP or too useless. Just a change to the field gets rid of the main annoyance of the D/P set (easy stealth), while keeps its usefulness as a blinding field and a quick blind on the enemy. This change also strengthens P/P by giving it the one thing that weapon set needs, some sustain (through projectile finishers that leech life) to make up for the lack of escape moves. Though to be honest, I would prefer the initiative being dropped to 5 instead of 6 if the field was changed.

While P/P would finally become a viable weapon set if #5 became a dark field, D/P would be destroyed imo. Like I stated before, would you or anyone use D/P if #5 was changed to a dark field?

I am not arguing that the on demand stealth is not the problem, it is, and the blind spam just adds to the problem. This is because once the thief is out of stealth and can be seen, players are hit with blinds making that 3 second window of revealed a lot safer for the thief. I think that on demand stealth needs to be nerfed hard, or both the on demand stealth and the blind spam both need to be dialed back a bit.

I never use D/P outside of certain PvE fights (such as that hylek on the little canyon top in Dry Top) to begin with, and when I do use the set it’s for the blinding field. If I’m fighting in WvW, I stick with D/D for my stealth purposes (due to the high risk/reward for it). If I’m fighting most things in PvE, I stick with P/P because you don’t really need stealth abuse in PvE.

I do however see your point about the weapon set being declared useless by the players. But like S/P, the set really had no use outside of close ranged DPS purposes to begin with until people discovered the spammy nature of BP -> HS.

Carpboy.7145:

Quakeman.9378:

Carpboy.7145:

Dp isn’t a crutch, unless you use it with SA. I can roam perfectly fine with dp trickery. Are there some matchups i know i won’t win? (Most things condi) You bet. So i dance around them a bit to try and gauge their skill level. If i know ill be able to kill them i stick around. If not i shadow step away and find one of the many other people in WvW fight. And that’s ok with me

The problem is that the vast majority of D/P players do use shadows arts. I do not feel that SA should be nerfed, because D/D heavily relies on it.

Thats a bit hypocritical. You don’t wanna nerf SA because that screws dd users. Ok thats fine i understand. But anything you do to dp won’t only nerf dp SA, itll also affect dp trickery. The trickery build HEAVILY relies on the blinds for survival since thats all they got.

Well it’s true, nerfing SA will not fix the problem and will do more harm than good. This is because D/D strongly relies on the SA trait line because the weapon set itself does not offer a lot of protection like D/P does or S/D. Also D/P does not need SA to have a high stealth upkeep time.

So should that be allowed? A build that does not have points in a stealth trait line be able to stealth so much?

Unlike D/P, D/D has a very easy counter play, make the thief miss the Cnd which can be done is a lot of ways. The problem is that D/P does not have a counter (That I know of). You cannot punish a D/P for missing his BP +HR combo because he can’t unless interrupted, but the BP has such a long field duration (4 seconds) that even if the thief is stunned he can still recover and leap through the smoke.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Azawrath.7304:

RyuDragnier.9476:

If we changed more than the field from smoke to dark, there’s a chance of the move becoming too OP or too useless. Just a change to the field gets rid of the main annoyance of the D/P set (easy stealth), while keeps its usefulness as a blinding field and a quick blind on the enemy. This change also strengthens P/P by giving it the one thing that weapon set needs, some sustain (through projectile finishers that leech life) to make up for the lack of escape moves. Though to be honest, I would prefer the initiative being dropped to 5 instead of 6 if the field was changed.

While P/P would finally become a viable weapon set if #5 became a dark field, D/P would be destroyed imo. Like I stated before, would you or anyone use D/P if #5 was changed to a dark field?

I am not arguing that the on demand stealth is not the problem, it is, and the blind spam just adds to the problem. This is because once the thief is out of stealth and can be seen, players are hit with blinds making that 3 second window of revealed a lot safer for the thief. I think that on demand stealth needs to be nerfed hard, or both the on demand stealth and the blind spam both need to be dialed back a bit.

I never use D/P outside of certain PvE fights (such as that hylek on the little canyon top in Dry Top) to begin with, and when I do use the set it’s for the blinding field. If I’m fighting in WvW, I stick with D/D for my stealth purposes (due to the high risk/reward for it). If I’m fighting most things in PvE, I stick with P/P because you don’t really need stealth abuse in PvE.

I rarely PvE so I totally forgot about that aspect of the game, so this new D/P would still be viable in there, also P/P would be viable so that’s also a plus. A problem with the nerfing of D/P will most likely result in even more thieves in Spvp jumping on the perma evade S/D build, also in WvW. But this could work out because than the perma evade build will be nerf and than finally Anet and people will see how weak thief is out of stealth. I’m starting to like this dark field on D/P… :P

mao.9832:

Actually the only real problem with D/P is the abuse of stealth with SA trait line. If you don’t know how to counter a blind then it’s your fault.
I think as said before to change Black Power to Dak field with 5ini instead of 6 and change the 4th skill of Pistol giving it something like 2x shots instead of 1 with half sec and it would be fine. This will make p/p viable and d/p still good.

It’s hard to counter blinds when they are so easily applied. Yes, if I realize that the thief popped a bp in the middle of my CnD, if I react fast enough, I can in theory sheathe my daggers to cancel the CnD, but this is anything but easy to do. I can dodge the shot from bp, only to have the thief reappear and plop another one down. It’s not blind we’re talking about here, it’s d/p’s ability to apply more blinds than one can deal with at times. It provides a much more forgiving play style. I can tell an immediate difference from when I play d/p instead of d/d, I don’t have to worry about anything really. And as I said before, I still feel like getting rid of d/p’s ability to stealth is too much. The whole purpose of dagger mainhand is for backstab, so that would completely defeat the purpose of the set and make it basically useless.

Quakeman.9378:

mao.9832:

Actually the only real problem with D/P is the abuse of stealth with SA trait line. If you don’t know how to counter a blind then it’s your fault.
I think as said before to change Black Power to Dak field with 5ini instead of 6 and change the 4th skill of Pistol giving it something like 2x shots instead of 1 with half sec and it would be fine. This will make p/p viable and d/p still good.

It’s hard to counter blinds when they are so easily applied. Yes, if I realize that the thief popped a bp in the middle of my CnD, if I react fast enough, I can in theory sheathe my daggers to cancel the CnD, but this is anything but easy to do. I can dodge the shot from bp, only to have the thief reappear and plop another one down. It’s not blind we’re talking about here, it’s d/p’s ability to apply more blinds than one can deal with at times. It provides a much more forgiving play style. I can tell an immediate difference from when I play d/p instead of d/d, I don’t have to worry about anything really. And as I said before, I still feel like getting rid of d/p’s ability to stealth is too much. The whole purpose of dagger mainhand is for backstab, so that would completely defeat the purpose of the set and make it basically useless.

If D/P was nerfed by making #5 a dark field than D/P would become a utility weapon set. Having 2 gap closers, a spammable interrupt, and a AoE blind field on a weapon set is awesome to supplement another build. How I see it, if D/P #5 is changed to a dark field, there should be a small buff to either #3,4,5 to make it even more of a utility weapon. It would give another option to thieves who run shortbow for the utility.

Also when one main weapon set is destroyed (D/P) another is born (P/P).

Stop talking about Black Powder becoming a Dark Field. It simply won’t happen.

Quakeman.9378:

mao.9832:

Actually the only real problem with D/P is the abuse of stealth with SA trait line. If you don’t know how to counter a blind then it’s your fault.
I think as said before to change Black Power to Dak field with 5ini instead of 6 and change the 4th skill of Pistol giving it something like 2x shots instead of 1 with half sec and it would be fine. This will make p/p viable and d/p still good.

It’s hard to counter blinds when they are so easily applied. Yes, if I realize that the thief popped a bp in the middle of my CnD, if I react fast enough, I can in theory sheathe my daggers to cancel the CnD, but this is anything but easy to do. I can dodge the shot from bp, only to have the thief reappear and plop another one down. It’s not blind we’re talking about here, it’s d/p’s ability to apply more blinds than one can deal with at times. It provides a much more forgiving play style. I can tell an immediate difference from when I play d/p instead of d/d, I don’t have to worry about anything really. And as I said before, I still feel like getting rid of d/p’s ability to stealth is too much. The whole purpose of dagger mainhand is for backstab, so that would completely defeat the purpose of the set and make it basically useless.

Use Dancing Dagger like I do to take out the blind or switch on sb to keep pressure on him with poison and cluster bomb. I never let thieves play in their funny combo field without doing nothing. Also I don’t think D/p would die as main set if BP becomes a dark field because it can combo with Dagger Storm/3rd skill to heal yourself. This will let people to stay alive and keep the blind pressure active.

Read the OP, and didn’t feel like reading all the things inbetween so Ima just give my opinion on the topic. D/p has a ton of damage mitigation, from the weaponset alone, not including traits. I definitely think the 3 abillity is pushing some limits as it’s not only a ranged blind, but also a gap closer AND deals damage. I also dislike (Although good players don’t do this) the 30SA permastealth that is independent of a target. I think that’s definititely a bit ridiculous, as the weaponset offers so much damage mitigation having the abillity to stealth and appear at full with a very low risk is pretty unbalanced. Here are the changes I would like to see in order to rebalance the weaponset, making it more skillful however no less powerful.

1. Decrease the cost of headshot by one initiative, maintain it as a projectile finisher (Can be used to more skillfully apply blind )
2. Remove the blinding projectile that shoots when casting black powder
3. Increase the cost of the 3rd skill by 1 initiative OR remove the blind.
4. Increase the cost of heartseeker by 1 initiative, however increase it’s damage to enemies at lower health. This makes the skill not only more balanced to prevent d/p 5 2 2 2 permastealth, but also promotes casting it skillfully when the target is low, and prevents spamming.
5. Increase the range of the 3rd skill, promoting its use as a gapcloser, and reducing its role as a spamable blind.

Just my opinion though

Can we wait and see how the upcoming balance changes are going to affect this weapon set? I mean it has already been announced that utility goggles on engi (which currently makes them immune to blind and breaks stun) is going to get 6s of reveal on analyze. Let’s see what shakes out before we start proposing nerfs to an average/good single-target set.

Maugetarr.6823:

Can we wait and see how the upcoming balance changes are going to affect this weapon set? I mean it has already been announced that utility goggles on engi (which currently makes them immune to blind and breaks stun) is going to get 6s of reveal on analyze. Let’s see what shakes out before we start proposing nerfs to an average/good single-target set.

+1

It’s the most forgiving set when used with SA that’s for sure, but with the changes we’ve seen so far that may not be true come October. Best to wait and see, for the moment.

The main thing that makes me laugh is that I started learning D/P when I made my thief 16 months ago, and not much has really changed about D/P or the QQ it causes in all that time. Sure, it’s strong, but you’d have thought people would be able to deal with it by now.

XPGAMER.7324:

1. Decrease the cost of headshot by one initiative, maintain it as a projectile finisher (Can be used to more skillfully apply blind )
2. Remove the blinding projectile that shoots when casting black powder
3. Increase the cost of the 3rd skill by 1 initiative OR remove the blind.
4. Increase the cost of heartseeker by 1 initiative, however increase it’s damage to enemies at lower health. This makes the skill not only more balanced to prevent d/p 5 2 2 2 permastealth, but also promotes casting it skillfully when the target is low, and prevents spamming.
5. Increase the range of the 3rd skill, promoting its use as a gapcloser, and reducing its role as a spamable blind.

Just my opinion though

These idea sound quite good honestly. Also, you’re opinion is quite important because you’re such a great thief player!

In a thread I created proposition of turning BP into dark field were made and to not mess up the sets those too as well:
-Unload replace Head Shot on #4 pistol off-hand with reduction on initiative cost
-Unload is replaced by a pistol version of flanking strike possibly applying cripple
-Shadow Shot and BP damage increase and reduction of initiative cost but maintain the blind effects

No need to change SA other than Last Refuge which I proposed to changed to -1 sec revealed APPLIED TO YOU.

Edit: that 1-sec is all that is needed to balance out the possible upcoming revealed skills on all classes no need to buff SA or anything.

Oh great. Another post by some by a complainer. Well done OP.

OP, pro tip for you: Don’t stand in the little red circle. Geez

style.6173:

Oh great. Another post by some by a complainer. Well done OP.

OP, pro tip for you: Don’t stand in the little red circle. Geez

Any more tips?

style.6173:

Oh great. Another post by some by a complainer. Well done OP.

OP, pro tip for you: Don’t stand in the little red circle. Geez

Very constructive. Such stupid. Wow.

That’s stupid. Instead of nerf something. try to buff another thing instead.

First of all: Dagger/Pistol is perfectly fine as it is. The problem are Shadow Arts, and one trait particularly; Infusion of Shadows. It is the only trait that makes this set work, because it makes it possible to chain 4 Heartseekers in one field. Literally no other build use that trait.

The only reason this set is so strong in WvW are because of its ability to stealth on demand. Especially with the Shadow Arts trait line being so strong. I don’t think it would be a huge nerf to the profession, and it would force d/p thieves into using their brain a bit more. D/P are far from OP in sPvP or PvE, so please don’t destroy our only perfect weapon set.

The Black Powder + Heartseeker combo are pretty strong, but it is initiative heavy! 9 out of 12 initiative is used and you only get stealth for 3 seconds. If your profession carries any knockdowns, interrupts or dazes then this is easy to counter. If you don’t carry one of these, then you simply met your counter – no need to get angry about it.

As I said; D/P are fine, it is Shadow Arts that need a rework.

Geiir.7603:

First of all: Dagger/Pistol is perfectly fine as it is. The problem are Shadow Arts, and one trait particularly; Infusion of Shadows. It is the only trait that makes this set work, because it makes it possible to chain 4 Heartseekers in one field. Literally no other build use that trait.

Nope, did not work anymore. You have to trait in Trickery for that.

apocom.3172:

Geiir.7603:

First of all: Dagger/Pistol is perfectly fine as it is. The problem are Shadow Arts, and one trait particularly; Infusion of Shadows. It is the only trait that makes this set work, because it makes it possible to chain 4 Heartseekers in one field. Literally no other build use that trait.

Nope, did not work anymore. You have to trait in Trickery for that.

Exactly! If you put points into trickery to get extra initiative then you lose points in either critical strikes or shadow arts. Any thief that want to kill people with d/p need critical strikes, so it is either survivability through stealth or extra initiative with steal buffs.

My point is that Shadow Arts is the problem, not d/p. It may be one of the best balanced sets for dueling in the game – don’t ruin it by changing it when the problem isn’t with the set. Look at p/d condition. The only reason that set work as good as it does is because of the constant restealthing that heals, blinds and remove conditions. What needs to change is SA. What they have to do I do not know, but it is the only reason thief are such a strong roamer with stealth builds.

Geiir.7603:

apocom.3172:

Geiir.7603:

First of all: Dagger/Pistol is perfectly fine as it is. The problem are Shadow Arts, and one trait particularly; Infusion of Shadows. It is the only trait that makes this set work, because it makes it possible to chain 4 Heartseekers in one field. Literally no other build use that trait.

Nope, did not work anymore. You have to trait in Trickery for that.

Exactly! If you put points into trickery to get extra initiative then you lose points in either critical strikes or shadow arts. Any thief that want to kill people with d/p need critical strikes, so it is either survivability through stealth or extra initiative with steal buffs.

My point is that Shadow Arts is the problem, not d/p. It may be one of the best balanced sets for dueling in the game – don’t ruin it by changing it when the problem isn’t with the set. Look at p/d condition. The only reason that set work as good as it does is because of the constant restealthing that heals, blinds and remove conditions. What needs to change is SA. What they have to do I do not know, but it is the only reason thief are such a strong roamer with stealth builds.

I am pretty no D/P uses both SA and Trickery but from your points of view both are the problem. All D/P users go x 6 6 x x or x 6 x x 6 so why say either of them you know what you are getting when investing in a defense or initiative improvement trait line.

A change in Infusion of Shadow is very unlikely to happen because it is a defensive trait line and the thief best defense is initiative stealth can be related to all builds it’s almost a signature of thief. The same for Trickery it’s made to strengthen initiative and steal and don’t forget it is a condition damage bar widely use by condi thieves who make a better use of it then burst.

So why is no one saying Critical Strikes or just admit that the D/P might be the problem? Is it so wrong for a thief to use it’s defensive trait lines Acro get a similar but less popular hate its like sustain shouldn’t be allowed on thief or like some say : Blind him man use your set no traits WTH is it with that? I’m sorry if you think that make better assasins(not thieves) but we are not forced to be class canon the same way guard are not forced to be healers and necros conditioners.

Sagat.3285:

Geiir.7603:

apocom.3172:

Geiir.7603:

First of all: Dagger/Pistol is perfectly fine as it is. The problem are Shadow Arts, and one trait particularly; Infusion of Shadows. It is the only trait that makes this set work, because it makes it possible to chain 4 Heartseekers in one field. Literally no other build use that trait.

Nope, did not work anymore. You have to trait in Trickery for that.

Exactly! If you put points into trickery to get extra initiative then you lose points in either critical strikes or shadow arts. Any thief that want to kill people with d/p need critical strikes, so it is either survivability through stealth or extra initiative with steal buffs.

My point is that Shadow Arts is the problem, not d/p. It may be one of the best balanced sets for dueling in the game – don’t ruin it by changing it when the problem isn’t with the set. Look at p/d condition. The only reason that set work as good as it does is because of the constant restealthing that heals, blinds and remove conditions. What needs to change is SA. What they have to do I do not know, but it is the only reason thief are such a strong roamer with stealth builds.

I am pretty no D/P uses both SA and Trickery but from your points of view both are the problem. All D/P users go x 6 6 x x or x 6 x x 6 so why say either of them you know what you are getting when investing in a defense or initiative improvement trait line.

A change in Infusion of Shadow is very unlikely to happen because it is a defensive trait line and the thief best defense is initiative stealth can be related to all builds it’s almost a signature of thief. The same for Trickery it’s made to strengthen initiative and steal and don’t forget it is a condition damage bar widely use by condi thieves who make a better use of it then burst.

So why is no one saying Critical Strikes or just admit that the D/P might be the problem? Is it so wrong for a thief to use it’s defensive trait lines Acro get a similar but less popular hate its like sustain shouldn’t be allowed on thief or like some say : Blind him man use your set no traits WTH is it with that? I’m sorry if you think that make better assasins(not thieves) but we are not forced to be class canon the same way guard are not forced to be healers and necros conditioners.

How many d/p trickery thieves do you encounter in WvW? I am one of them, and that build has very little sustain. The only thing that keeps it going are the blinds. I use stealth only for repositioning, escaping or a backstab. If pressured by conditions or heavy damage I will die pretty fast or I’ll have to gtfo.

What is the main thing people complain about when fighting a thief? Stealth. Argument’s they make? Stealth remove conditions, heal and blinds. Uhh, that isn’t stealth, it is the Shadow Arts trait line.

When I run trickery people does not get kittened and harass me in chat afterwards, because I doesn’t stealth and return at full hp and without conditions.

Are Dagger/Pistol op? Yes, against new players that doesn’t know how to fight that set. New players doesn’t know what to expect and therefore do not know what to interrupt. Seasoned players have no problem countering me on d/p. It is the SA trait line they complain about.

Geiir.7603:

Sagat.3285:

Geiir.7603:

apocom.3172:

Geiir.7603:

First of all: Dagger/Pistol is perfectly fine as it is. The problem are Shadow Arts, and one trait particularly; Infusion of Shadows. It is the only trait that makes this set work, because it makes it possible to chain 4 Heartseekers in one field. Literally no other build use that trait.

Nope, did not work anymore. You have to trait in Trickery for that.

Exactly! If you put points into trickery to get extra initiative then you lose points in either critical strikes or shadow arts. Any thief that want to kill people with d/p need critical strikes, so it is either survivability through stealth or extra initiative with steal buffs.

My point is that Shadow Arts is the problem, not d/p. It may be one of the best balanced sets for dueling in the game – don’t ruin it by changing it when the problem isn’t with the set. Look at p/d condition. The only reason that set work as good as it does is because of the constant restealthing that heals, blinds and remove conditions. What needs to change is SA. What they have to do I do not know, but it is the only reason thief are such a strong roamer with stealth builds.

I am pretty no D/P uses both SA and Trickery but from your points of view both are the problem. All D/P users go x 6 6 x x or x 6 x x 6 so why say either of them you know what you are getting when investing in a defense or initiative improvement trait line.

A change in Infusion of Shadow is very unlikely to happen because it is a defensive trait line and the thief best defense is initiative stealth can be related to all builds it’s almost a signature of thief. The same for Trickery it’s made to strengthen initiative and steal and don’t forget it is a condition damage bar widely use by condi thieves who make a better use of it then burst.

So why is no one saying Critical Strikes or just admit that the D/P might be the problem? Is it so wrong for a thief to use it’s defensive trait lines Acro get a similar but less popular hate its like sustain shouldn’t be allowed on thief or like some say : Blind him man use your set no traits WTH is it with that? I’m sorry if you think that make better assasins(not thieves) but we are not forced to be class canon the same way guard are not forced to be healers and necros conditioners.

How many d/p trickery thieves do you encounter in WvW? I am one of them, and that build has very little sustain. The only thing that keeps it going are the blinds. I use stealth only for repositioning, escaping or a backstab. If pressured by conditions or heavy damage I will die pretty fast or I’ll have to gtfo.

What is the main thing people complain about when fighting a thief? Stealth. Argument’s they make? Stealth remove conditions, heal and blinds. Uhh, that isn’t stealth, it is the Shadow Arts trait line.

When I run trickery people does not get kittened and harass me in chat afterwards, because I doesn’t stealth and return at full hp and without conditions.

Are Dagger/Pistol op? Yes, against new players that doesn’t know how to fight that set. New players doesn’t know what to expect and therefore do not know what to interrupt. Seasoned players have no problem countering me on d/p. It is the SA trait line they complain about.

So are you saying there should be no cleansing,healing.. on thief? Go play D/D and come back and tell me how you did without SA and I can assure people that everyone complain about SA+D/P combo even tough the best you could do is to run in the opposite direction until the stealth is over THAT WORKS better than staying there.

Who here doesn’t know how to counter a x/D SA thief that CnD is major weakness and strength at the same time : miss you are most likely half-dead hit still need positioning (D/D) some stacks for a while (P/D). And who here think thief should all play without sustain if you do then they just to make all guard healer,all ele celestial,all necro conditioners,all engi turrets if you follow this assasin mindset.

Personal question: If you could be remove stealth from thief what could possibly be a decent mechanism worth of investing since Acro is not the best for regen or cleansing? Keep in mind all classes should have access to sustain.

Thief healing with SA still pales incomparision to Ele, guards, engi and ranger. Also other profs meta builds have much better group healing.

Sagar: I also play d/d and yes, it need shadow arts. P/D and d/p are the two sets that are benefiting most from shadow arts. It is the only two sets using stealth that people complain about. I do not want to remove shadow arts, and I am not sure what can be done….

My only idea is to make #5 a smoke field where the projectile gives you stealth if it connects (much like Rangers longbow #3). It adds counter play and prevents the thief from chaining stealth to regen all its hp and remove all conditions.

I still think it is fine as is. It is only in combination with Shadow Arts that it is op. I don’t know what they can do, but destroying a good set is not the way to go imo.