Guild Wars 2

It really doesnt matter what is nerfed. Across every single MMO ever made, if there is a thief class, there will be QQ and cries of nerf. Folks just don’t like it when they get hit from an unseen enemy.

If you make Pistol #5 into a dark field you eliminate stealth from a weapon set with dagger as its main-hand.

Who would run d/p if you can not backstab… that is the point of the set. Not to mention it is insanely difficult in this meta to run the trickery d/p build in pvp let alone impossible in WvW without getting eaten alive by condis.

30 in SA with infusion embrace and rejuvenation is strong with D/P.. no doubt about it! You know what though? Multiple classes still have better sustain than this including warrior ele guard and engi.

I run D/P with the SA traits and I still have to run from 40% condition duration 25 corruption stack perplexity engis who literally put 7 condis on me per auto attack.

So go ahead and nerf it. But you gotta nerf like 20 other things in this game before it is justified.

Read my take on #5 as smoke field. It will still give stealth. I think d/p are fine though, and does not need any changes….

Yeah, those engis are just insane with their condition burst… I think it is wrong that you can be able to burst with conditions, that should be impossible since conditions are dots and should be about attrition, not burst.

We need shadow arts, but it is also the only reason d/p are as strong as it is in WvW. In PvP it is far from op, I’d rather say it is in a sweet spot there.

Geiir.7603:

Sagar: I also play d/d and yes, it need shadow arts. P/D and d/p are the two sets that are benefiting most from shadow arts. It is the only two sets using stealth that people complain about. I do not want to remove shadow arts, and I am not sure what can be done….

My only idea is to make #5 a smoke field where the projectile gives you stealth if it connects (much like Rangers longbow #3). It adds counter play and prevents the thief from chaining stealth to regen all its hp and remove all conditions.

I still think it is fine as is. It is only in combination with Shadow Arts that it is op. I don’t know what they can do, but destroying a good set is not the way to go imo.

The projectile would have to be a leap finisher which doesn’t make the point but I partially get the point but also it is still smoke combo field there is nothing stoping HS through it. I understant it might sound frustrating not having Backstab on D/P but look again at my propostions the damage loss is made up through improve Shadow Shot,new unload+ improve darkfield BP and maybe if Acro is reworked it might used instead of Trickery( I am still waiting for Pain Response to be change to remove 1 condition on succesful evade 8 sec CD) why does no one goes into Deadly Arts?

Stealth is a partial way of evading conditions but as a burst spec D/P takes longer to kill than a great D/D or decent S/D I’m proposing making the spec less stacking and more active defense(life siphon+blind) and offense. Btw have you tried using 6 6 2 0 0 with Shadow Embrace+Revealed Training?

Let’s all remember that the thief skill bar is not here yet.

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

Yeah, sorry, I meant dark field (kitten brain!).

Also, black powder doesn’t do much damage, so it would only be used as a stealth utility instead of a blind utility. It adds some sustain and greatly benefits dual pistol builds.

Quakeman.9378:

As someone who plays thief a lot (only character I roam with/ WvW for that matter), I realize that there are certain things about our profession that are iffy at times. Namely D/P and the sheer amount of blinds it offers. To be quite honest, d/p seems to be a crutch of sorts for players learning thief, which I suppose is fine, but part of me still feels like it’s just too much. I roam with D/D on my thief, but I used to use d/p for quite a while, but I guess I moved on. Now while I kill plenty of d/p thieves, I see how much of a god forsaken pain in the butt they are. Most of the hate we get as a profession originates from d/p and its ability to mitigate so much damage with easily-accessed stealth and loads of blinds. However, I don’t see what can really be done without totally messing the weapon set up. I’ve thought of maybe removing the blind on d/p 3, to reduce the sheer amount of blinds the build offers without ruining anything, but I’m not sure. What do you guys, as avid thief players, think? Is d/p just a little over the top, or is it fine?
Also, this is by no means a QQ thread. I simply mean to bring forth a constructive discussion about our class.

Leave D/P and all the skills in that weapon set as is. All the proposed solution in this thread loses focus on what’s the actual problem is.

Ok, sure stealth is easy with D/P, but why change BP?

BP is not the problem here, the leap finisher is.

If ArenaNet is to change anything, they need to change the leap finisher. Problem solved.

None of this changing BP to dark field nonsense since it will introduce more problem and it’s not worth fixing one problem just to crate more.

I don’t understand the need for a nerf, SA is rarely used in PvE, not used in PvP and only used in WvW. d/d with SA is fine, so is s/d and anything else, so it’s only d/p, right?

Now, d/p SA is pretty good in WvW, sure, but:
- d/d ele can beat it
- nearly every engi build can beat it
- condi necro can beat it
- PU mesmer, especially condi, can beat it
- condi ranger can beat it
- condi thief p/d has a good chance against it
- warrior has a good chance against it, especially with hammer or longbow
All these are rather common roaming specs.

The only thing d/p SA is unbalanced against is other thieves, namely s/d and d/d. Maybe guardians? I don’t have a lot of experience with guardians.

On tier 2, I don’t even see that many d/p thieves anymore, if there is a single class overrepresented it’s engi. In fact, condition builds for engineers work for both PvP and WvW, only in WvW they get stronger because of dire gear and food.
All the classes listed above I encounter daily.

It’s basically a trait line giving thieves a subpar healing signet in stealth with some condi cleanse while giving up damage. Considering our options for dealing with condis are already pretty bad, I don’t see the outrage.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Quakeman.9378:

As someone who plays thief a lot (only character I roam with/ WvW for that matter), I realize that there are certain things about our profession that are iffy at times. Namely D/P and the sheer amount of blinds it offers. To be quite honest, d/p seems to be a crutch of sorts for players learning thief, which I suppose is fine, but part of me still feels like it’s just too much. I roam with D/D on my thief, but I used to use d/p for quite a while, but I guess I moved on. Now while I kill plenty of d/p thieves, I see how much of a god forsaken pain in the butt they are. Most of the hate we get as a profession originates from d/p and its ability to mitigate so much damage with easily-accessed stealth and loads of blinds. However, I don’t see what can really be done without totally messing the weapon set up. I’ve thought of maybe removing the blind on d/p 3, to reduce the sheer amount of blinds the build offers without ruining anything, but I’m not sure. What do you guys, as avid thief players, think? Is d/p just a little over the top, or is it fine?
Also, this is by no means a QQ thread. I simply mean to bring forth a constructive discussion about our class.

Leave D/P and all the skills in that weapon set as is. All the proposed solution in this thread loses focus on what’s the actual problem is.

Ok, sure stealth is easy with D/P, but why change BP?

BP is not the problem here, the leap finisher is.

If ArenaNet is to change anything, they need to change the leap finisher. Problem solved.

None of this changing BP to dark field nonsense since it will introduce more problem and it’s not worth fixing one problem just to crate more.

Another seasoned thief that agrees with me!

I was just throwing out ideas really. Fixing the leap finisher would be the best solution (having a global internal cool down on leap finishers for example).

D/P are fine as is, I agree.

Another QQ thread from a D/D thief . . . hard countered by D/P.

Man if D/P is good (and not OP) again’t D/D deal with it . . . P/D is better for 1v1 or 1vX and there is no need to create this threads to ask for nerf.

IMO the most pathetic thief threads are this . . .

About the original post,

Black powder only has one blind that is highly probable to hit. This skill can be spammed 3 times over about 3 seconds (asumming 15 available initiative and factoring in cast times). Players simply attack from outside the BP to land attacks

Shadow shot also has one blind that is highly probable to hit. This skill can be spammed 5 times over about 5 seconds (asumming 15 available initiative and factoring in cast times).

After spamming for 5 seconds, the thief has no blinds. What issue is being identified in the OP?

SoLeciTO.3490:

Another QQ thread from a D/D thief . . . hard countered by D/P.

Man if D/P is good (and not OP) again’t D/D deal with it . . . P/D is better for 1v1 or 1vX and there is no need to create this threads to ask for nerf.

IMO the most pathetic thief threads are this . . .

It’s confirmed: you cannot read. I purposefully said, and I quote “this is by no means a QQ thread.” Can one not discuss thief w/o “QQing?” For the love of god, I’m not crying about D/P. I kill D/P thieves all the time with D/D. So no, this thread was not made out of rage of dying to a D/P thief. It was made under the acknowledgement that SOMETHING needs to change. My sole goal is to have a purposeful discussion about D/P, a goal which many others realized and sought, but obviously one that is too complex for some to understand. I’m getting extremely fed up with the Guild Wars community. For starters, some people cannot understand the concept that others may be better than them. I’ve fought some people, lost, and gone “Wow this guy is freaking good.” Yes sometimes I get frustrated, but I always realize that I’m not pro. I’m not the best thief there ever was- not even close. There are people who will beat me and I accept that. I go back out and get better, knowing that one day I might be able to win against them. Others though, can’t grasp this and instead QQ about the other using an OP/Cheesy/noob/etc. build. Until people realize that others will be better than them, nothing will ever be accomplished. Secondly, a large percentage of people view ANY discussion of a class, and possible changes based upon solid logic as QQ. One cannot suggest ANYTHING anymore without being told to “l2p,” being accused of QQ, or being called Pathetic as you put it. I don’t know for how much longer I can stand this. The community fort his game is quite honestly horrible at times, and most definitely hostile a large part of the time. Something has to change, because I’m sure many other people with the same intentions as I have already given up. I don’t know hwo some of you guys carry on here. I really don’t.
IMO, the most pathetic people are those who cannot realize the true intent of one’s words.

Quakeman.9378:

SoLeciTO.3490:

Another QQ thread from a D/D thief . . . hard countered by D/P.

Man if D/P is good (and not OP) again’t D/D deal with it . . . P/D is better for 1v1 or 1vX and there is no need to create this threads to ask for nerf.

IMO the most pathetic thief threads are this . . .

It’s confirmed: you cannot read. I purposefully said, and I quote “this is by no means a QQ thread.” Can one not discuss thief w/o “QQing?” For the love of god, I’m not crying about D/P. I kill D/P thieves all the time with D/D. So no, this thread was not made out of rage of dying to a D/P thief. It was made under the acknowledgement that SOMETHING needs to change. My sole goal is to have a purposeful discussion about D/P, a goal which many others realized and sought, but obviously one that is too complex for some to understand. I’m getting extremely fed up with the Guild Wars community. For starters, some people cannot understand the concept that others may be better than them. I’ve fought some people, lost, and gone “Wow this guy is freaking good.” Yes sometimes I get frustrated, but I always realize that I’m not pro. I’m not the best thief there ever was- not even close. There are people who will beat me and I accept that. I go back out and get better, knowing that one day I might be able to win against them. Others though, can’t grasp this and instead QQ about the other using an OP/Cheesy/noob/etc. build. Until people realize that others will be better than them, nothing will ever be accomplished. Secondly, a large percentage of people view ANY discussion of a class, and possible changes based upon solid logic as QQ. One cannot suggest ANYTHING anymore without being told to “l2p,” being accused of QQ, or being called Pathetic as you put it. I don’t know for how much longer I can stand this. The community fort his game is quite honestly horrible at times, and most definitely hostile a large part of the time. Something has to change, because I’m sure many other people with the same intentions as I have already given up. I don’t know hwo some of you guys carry on here. I really don’t.
IMO, the most pathetic people are those who cannot realize the true intent of one’s words.

The problem with your topic is failing to correctly identifying the problem and providing a reasonable solution.

By failing to identify the problem thus consequently failing to provide a reasonable solution can only mean one thing — you are not a legitimate Thief user.

With that said, there are few reason why you would want to change D/P — either it’s too hard for you to use or you got your kitten kicked by a good D/P player — I am leaning towards the latter but I strive to be pragmatic whenever I can.

Making #5 a Dark Field will NEVER happen, there is no point to even suggest it. It simply will never happen. Why? Because a D/P trickery thief (the only viable D/P spec in sPvP) needs it to burst. If it would be a dark field a D/P thief would not be able to burst anymore and thus make the build useless and unplayable in a competitive PvP environment.

But anyway,

- D/P is not broken in sPvP, its actually very well balanced and one of the hardest and most unforgiving specs you can play.

- This game doesn’t get balanced around roaming in WvW, sorry but thats just the way it is.

- 5 2 1 D/P SA thieves are very very predictable and not hard to beat at all…

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

It would also make D/P unable to burst and thus kill the spec in sPvP, so no it will not happen.

D/P itself is fine and a perfectly viable weaponset, it’s combined with SA that gives it a great deal of sustain, as many others have said already. I do think that Shadow’s Rejuvenation is a very forgiving trait and should be toned down, but with all of the other arguably more cheese builds in this game, I won’t complain about it. Since the change to Infusion of Shadow a while back, I don’t find it to be quite as over-the-top as it used to be.

I played D/D thief for the longest time. The set almost requires SA to play effectively due to how predictable it is. Almost everything banks on landing Cloak and Daggers, otherwise you’re a sitting duck.

Ryyman.2196:

I played D/D thief for the longest time. The set almost requires SA to play effectively due to how predictable it is.

It seems rampant how this misinformation of “D/D requires SA” is being spewed everywhere. You can build Acro or Trickery around D/D and it will still do great. It doesn’t rely on SA. What relies heavily on SA is the P/D set, not D/D.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem with your topic is failing to correctly identifying the problem and providing a reasonable solution.

By failing to identify the problem thus consequently failing to provide a reasonable solution can only mean one thing — you are not a legitimate Thief user.

With that said, there are few reason why you would want to change D/P — either it’s too hard for you to use or you got your kitten kicked by a good D/P player — I am leaning towards the latter but I strive to be pragmatic whenever I can.

I….. I can’t even right now….. There is no single “problem” with D/P. My goal of this thread (which you would know had you actually read my original post) was to see what other thief players think. IS that so hard to understand? Must one get “rekt” by D/P or suck with d/p to do this? Can one not have the innocent goal of simply seeing other people’s opinion on the matter? And you say I didn’t provide a reasonable solution? I believe to an extent that D/P is too strong compared to other sets, which is my opinion after having played thief for a long time with both D/P and D/D. I suggested the following:
" 1: Black Powder’s blinding shot is removed, and only puts the smoke field down
2:Shadow Shot: blind replaced with a cripple (vulnerability/weakness maybe too; anything really)"
Which is if you ask me is a very reasonable way to help tone down D/P to the level of other sets and to an extent classes. I honestly believed that when I created this thread that others would greet my opinion with respect, and actually understand what I’m saying. obviously, I overestimated people’s ability for understanding. I honestly believe I am kittening done with these forums. Period. My intention of this thread is pretty clear. Before you write something that is beyond insulting to myself, please actually kittening READ what I kittening posted. Actually TRY to understand what I’m saying. I had a sincere heart in the making of this thread. No QQ, no hate, just a nice constructive discussion about D/P. To those who say D/P is fine as is, okay. That’s your opinion. But when you start insulting me with the silly idea that it’s my fault for wanting to discuss D/P at all, you ruin everything. Congratulations guys, I’m done with the thief forums. Hope you’re proud of your failure to realize my intentions.

Yoloswaginz signing out.

P.S: to all you you who actually added to this thread, I thank and applaud you.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

It would also make D/P unable to burst and thus kill the spec in sPvP, so no it will not happen.

How would it be unable to burst?

Maugetarr.6823:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

It would also make D/P unable to burst and thus kill the spec in sPvP, so no it will not happen.

How would it be unable to burst?

Because the burst is already not that high anymore? Going with ur suggestion would get rid of the HS damage part aswell thus make it even lower ? To the point where probably S/D can burst almost similiar numbers thus make it useless ?

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

It would also make D/P unable to burst and thus kill the spec in sPvP, so no it will not happen.

How would it be unable to burst?

Because the burst is already not that high anymore? Going with ur suggestion would get rid of the HS damage part aswell thus make it even lower ? To the point where probably S/D can burst almost similiar numbers thus make it useless ?

You don’t have to only use heartseeker through BPS. . . You can use it any time you want.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ryyman.2196:

I played D/D thief for the longest time. The set almost requires SA to play effectively due to how predictable it is.

It seems rampant how this misinformation of “D/D requires SA” is being spewed everywhere. You can build Acro or Trickery around D/D and it will still do great. It doesn’t rely on SA. What relies heavily on SA is the P/D set, not D/D.

If you play D/D with either trickery or acro ur gimping urself not running a diff set (D/P, S/D) but well thinking abt it… ur always gimping urself for picking D/D…

Maugetarr.6823:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

It would also make D/P unable to burst and thus kill the spec in sPvP, so no it will not happen.

How would it be unable to burst?

Because the burst is already not that high anymore? Going with ur suggestion would get rid of the HS damage part aswell thus make it even lower ? To the point where probably S/D can burst almost similiar numbers thus make it useless ?

You don’t have to only use heartseeker through BPS. . . You can use it any time you want.

Do you know how a trickery D/P thief bursts?

5 → 2 → f1 (while channeling 2) → 1

With ur suggestion burst would be something like

5 → f1 (while channeling 5) → 1

I play thief a lot and almost exclusively D/P. I have to admit, it gets to a point where the blind spam is just cheese. I suggest changing the blind duration on shadow shot to 1 second or however long it takes to teleport to the target. It would allow for more skillful play and not allow perma blind (if they’re standing in BP they’re just idiots). If you time your shadow shots right then the change wouldn’t matter but if you don’t, well then you just can’t be carried as hard. You may need to lower initiative cost for shadow shot with this change but idk. Don’t change BP to a dark field it would ruin the weapon set by making it have no stealth which means to backstab which is horrible DPS for a thief.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

It would also make D/P unable to burst and thus kill the spec in sPvP, so no it will not happen.

How would it be unable to burst?

Because the burst is already not that high anymore? Going with ur suggestion would get rid of the HS damage part aswell thus make it even lower ? To the point where probably S/D can burst almost similiar numbers thus make it useless ?

You don’t have to only use heartseeker through BPS. . . You can use it any time you want.

Do you know how a trickery D/P thief bursts?

5 -> 2 -> f1 (while channeling 2) -> 1

With ur suggestion burst would be something like

5 -> f1 (while channeling 5) -> 1

So why can’t you just hit 2 after the backstab? I’m confused as to how requiring one fewer step prevents you from doing the same burst…

as in:

5 (now has lifesteal too) -> f1 (while channeling 5) -> 1 -> 2

it’s not lowering the burst, its changing the order.

Edit: I’d also like to point out that putting the HS at the end gives it a 2.0 multiplier rather than the 1.0 you receive from putting it on the beginning of the burst allowing more damage for the initiative spent.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ryyman.2196:

I played D/D thief for the longest time. The set almost requires SA to play effectively due to how predictable it is.

It seems rampant how this misinformation of “D/D requires SA” is being spewed everywhere. You can build Acro or Trickery around D/D and it will still do great. It doesn’t rely on SA. What relies heavily on SA is the P/D set, not D/D.

If you play D/D with either trickery or acro ur gimping urself not running a diff set (D/P, S/D) but well thinking abt it… ur always gimping urself for picking D/D…

What’s that got to do with the misguided idea about “D/D requires SA”?

There’s a lot of nice traits in SA, but it’s not a prerequisite to D/D.

Actually I like the idea of simply removing the blind shot on Black Powder.

alchemyst.2165:

Actually I like the idea of simply removing the blind shot on Black Powder.

Yup, just delete P/P from the face of the planet Tyria.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

Actually I like the idea of simply removing the blind shot on Black Powder.

Yup, just delete P/P from the face of the planet Tyria.

Nobody used P/P anyways…Or we could make it so that the shot stealths you if it hits instead of blinding.

Azawrath.7304:

NinjaEd.3946:

IMO shadow shot is fine, its the stealth spam that’s an issue allowing to many screw ups and letting you reset on demand. I don’t know any thief using d/p in wvw that doesn’t have a heavy investment into their initiative, so they always keep it on hand to escape if need be or reposition. It comes down to chain stealth where it becomes a time out which isn’t fun or fair game play. I believe it should come down to a nerf in the way combo finishers work off of combo fields.

1. Allow meld in shadows to effect combo skills (leap or blast on smoke field in this case)
2. Change the mechanic of combo finishers/fields to apply a lesser effect each time if used on the same field. For example: BPS->Leap(4 sec)->Leap(3 sec)->Leap(1 sec). So the DR doubles each time until its basically non existent. Between the time it took to turn around and leap, the old set up granted about ~7 seconds of stealth? (correct me if I’m wrong). This new set up would only get about ~5 seconds.

For those using 2/6/0/0/6 with dp they didn’t sit in stealth for very long anyways. They actually used it just to reposition and land a BS immediately so it doesn’t effect them. For those using x/x/6/x/x with dp they would have a better start but they would need to fuel a new BPS rapidly to fund their stealth up time which would mean a heavier investment into their initiative which means they just get weaker and weaker somewhere else. Even if they decide to carry smoke bomb and drop it on the smoke field, that field still applies DR towards them (although the skill itself would still grant 3-4 seconds depending on traits).

I do not think nerfing combo finishers and combo fields will fix anything, it will end up doing more harm than good to this game. Many class and many guilds rely on might stacking, retaliation, stealth, and healing from combo fields, not just thieves.

They could make it only effect smoke combo fields, because that’s the culprit for high stealth up time and leave all other fields alone unless something comes up along the way. Smoke field itself isn’t broken, its the ability to combo it endlessly with no drawback. Granted it’s about 8 trait points and a utility slot but you can get perma stealth quite easily.

For low-moderate stealth users this will actually effect them in no way, it may even help since meld with shadows will grant 4 seconds instead of 3. For high-perma stealth users this will hurt them in the sense that they have to invest deeper into its cost to maintain it while losing other options.

Lol acrobatic D/P is awsome just 5-2-1-dodge-dodge repeat and you never get hit. If your in a bind 5-3-3-3 or exhaust your dodges. I’ve found you can go full SA, but with Acrobatics, 2 or 4 in SA will be as good as 6 in SA.

Why are thieves wanting to nerf their own class!??!

A x 6 6 x x D/P thief is not a problem in the least.

In fact one could reliably make the statement that the strongest trait line for a thief is the trickery line.

As for the d/d thieves complaining about d/p thieves….learn to use your 3 and 4 keys. Also try slotting scorpion wire for a fight or two

T raw.4658:

Why are thieves wanting to nerf their own class!??!

A x 6 6 x x D/P thief is not a problem in the least.

In fact one could reliably make the statement that the strongest trait line for a thief is the trickery line.

As for the d/d thieves complaining about d/p thieves….learn to use your 3 and 4 keys. Also try slotting scorpion wire for a fight or two

A high crit, high defense stealth setup isn’t a problem with a D/P thief? Do you expect D/P thieves to NOT backstab or stealth spam?

RyuDragnier.9476:

T raw.4658:

Why are thieves wanting to nerf their own class!??!

A x 6 6 x x D/P thief is not a problem in the least.

In fact one could reliably make the statement that the strongest trait line for a thief is the trickery line.

As for the d/d thieves complaining about d/p thieves….learn to use your 3 and 4 keys. Also try slotting scorpion wire for a fight or two

A high crit, high defense stealth setup isn’t a problem with a D/P thief? Do you expect D/P thieves to NOT backstab or stealth spam?

no its not a problem

it’s the most predictable weapon set a thief has

when they use BP either dodge then interrupt or clear then interrupt

it’s not rocket science ppl

T raw.4658:

In fact one could reliably make the statement that the strongest trait line for a thief is the trickery line.

For goodness’ sake, shush!

We don’t want ArenaNet’s attention on the last place to put trait in that actually makes the profession fun to play.

If ArenaNet nerfs Trickery, the blood of the dying Thieves is on you.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It seems rampant how this misinformation of “D/D requires SA” is being spewed everywhere. You can build Acro or Trickery around D/D and it will still do great. It doesn’t rely on SA. What relies heavily on SA is the P/D set, not D/D.

How does P/D rely on SA the most? P/D has a gap maker and is ranged unlike D/D. This makes P/D really easy to kite people around unlike D/D which needs to be front and personal. Also P/D is usually a condition build so Dire FTW, unlike D/D which is usually a burst spec and is a lot squishier than P/D condition. I just don’t see why out of all the thief specs P/D is the one that needs it the most, maybe the second set to rely on it the most but the first.

Azawrath.7304:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It seems rampant how this misinformation of “D/D requires SA” is being spewed everywhere. You can build Acro or Trickery around D/D and it will still do great. It doesn’t rely on SA. What relies heavily on SA is the P/D set, not D/D.

How does P/D rely on SA the most? P/D has a gap maker and is ranged unlike D/D. This makes P/D really easy to kite people around unlike D/D which needs to be front and personal.

D/D can use heartseeker for both gap closer and gap maker, which is cheaper and better than P/D’s gap maker. By that alone, removes D/D’s reliance on SA.

P/D’s gap maker relies on hitting someone in melee range, what if your fighting against another ranged player? You’re a sitting duck without SA’s extended stealth and shadow’s rejuvenation.

Also P/D is usually a condition build so Dire FTW, unlike D/D which is usually a burst spec and is a lot squishier than P/D condition.

Who says you can’t build Soldier/Valkyrie with D/D? Thus your “squishy” comment is moot.

I just don’t see why out of all the thief specs P/D is the one that needs it the most, maybe the second set to rely on it the most but the first.

Nothing I would post will make you see, so I won’t even try to convince you. If you really believe that D/D relies on SA more than P/D, then I’ll just leave it at that.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

D/D can use heartseeker for both gap closer and gap maker, which is cheaper and better than P/D’s gap maker. By that alone, removes D/D’s reliance on SA.

D/D heartseeker is a gap closer ,but P/D #3 is a instant 600 range gap maker that inflicts torment while heartseeker is a 450 range non instant gap maker which has to the right camera angle to do so and can be affect by chill and cripple making it useless. The 3 main damage dealers of D/D are all melee range so having regen, longer stealth, more toughness, and possbily blind is awesome in revealing some of the pressure.

P/D’s gap maker relies on hitting someone in melee range, what if your fighting against another ranged player? You’re a sitting duck without SA’s extended stealth and shadow’s rejuvenation.

You are right that P/D would have more trouble sticking on range target for lack of a gap closer but thieves have teleports like steal, infiltrators signet, and shadowstep to get closer to our targets. Also P/D is ranged so they could still hit their target if they are ranged but not get the #5 #1 combo off.

Who says you can’t build Soldier/Valkyrie with D/D? Thus your “squishy” comment is moot.

Never said you couldn’t. Just said that D/D is usually a more busty build and high crit is a nice thing to have with burst so just by gear D/D is normally squishier.

And I won’t try to convince you anymore. Both P/D and D/D are strengthened when in using SA for different reasons. Sorry I had to run, gotta go see a baby!

Sorry the quotes came out weird I’m rushing and I don’t know how to work quotes. :P

Azawrath.7304:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

D/D can use heartseeker for both gap closer and gap maker, which is cheaper and better than P/D’s gap maker. By that alone, removes D/D’s reliance on SA.

D/D heartseeker is a gap closer ,but P/D #3 is a instant 600 range gap maker that inflicts torment while heartseeker is a 450 range non instant gap maker which has to the right camera angle to do so and can be affect by chill and cripple making it useless. The 3 main damage dealers of D/D are all melee range so having regen, longer stealth, more toughness, and possbily blind is awesome in revealing some of the pressure.

P/D’s gap maker relies on hitting someone in melee range, what if your fighting against another ranged player? You’re a sitting duck without SA’s extended stealth and shadow’s rejuvenation.

You are right that P/D would have more trouble sticking on range target for lack of a gap closer but thieves have teleports like steal, infiltrators signet, and shadowstep to get closer to our targets. Also P/D is ranged so they could still hit their target if they are ranged but not get the #5 #1 combo off.

Who says you can’t build Soldier/Valkyrie with D/D? Thus your “squishy” comment is moot.

Never said you couldn’t. Just said that D/D is usually a more busty build and high crit is a nice thing to have with burst so just by gear D/D is normally squishier.

The point is, your assumption is wrong thinking that D/D is “normally squishier”. D/D can run with Dire set also if they build condition damage. Yes, backstab burst damage is nice, but that’s not what D/D is all about.

And I won’t try to convince you anymore. Both P/D and D/D are strengthened when in using SA for different reasons. Sorry I had to run, gotta go see a baby!

Well, you’re not convincing anyone with what you’ve posted so far.

If you must run, then stay safe.

Sorry the quotes came out weird I’m rushing and I don’t know how to work quotes. :P

It’s all good.