Guild Wars 2

I just have a simple question: If a player can finish somebody while stealthed, why are thieves immune to being finished after they’ve used their smoke bomb to vanish? I fail to see why a thief should be any more difficult to finish than any other downed player of a different profession.

Simple answer, Thieves(and mesmers FYI) can finish ppl while stealthed, because they don´t have better option like other classes (stability or invulnerability or both is much better than stealth in this case).
And we can be finished while in stealth, so no problem here, until Anet fixes channeling on invisible targets (which is another great flaw in stealth design imho…)

Do you realize that the thief is still lying helpless at the same place he vanished?
I am far more concerned about Warrior’s Vengeance and Engi’s Booby Trap for example,because i can easily die if i am not concentrated and don’t finish target quick.

Alex Kelley.2748:

I just have a simple question: If a player can finish somebody while stealthed, why are thieves immune to being finished after they’ve used their smoke bomb to vanish? I fail to see why a thief should be any more difficult to finish than any other downed player of a different profession.

You can’t finish stealthed players. It is consistent as you can use Shadow Refuge to save other players from a stomp.

A successful execute requires a target and Stealth denies that.

Alex Kelley.2748:

I just have a simple question: If a player can finish somebody while stealthed, why are thieves immune to being finished after they’ve used their smoke bomb to vanish? I fail to see why a thief should be any more difficult to finish than any other downed player of a different profession.

The next time you are getting stomped by a stability powered guardian or an invulnerable elementalist and a thief comes and stealths you, you’d better tell him how it is such crap that you can avoid stomps with stealth.

Killing downed thieves follows a pretty simple flow.

1. Do you have an instant teleport ability that is off cool-down? —-> Stomp
2. Are you able to start the stomp immediately after the Thief went down? —-> Stomp
3. Else simply DPS the thief through the port and manually DPS the area where they stealth.

Situation 1 lets you follow the Thief while doing your stomping animation and completing the stomp on the first try

2 allows you to readjust after they teleport and even if they wait until the last second, you will complete the 2nd stomp before their stealth comes off cool-down.

3 is the best way to deal with a downed thief without wasting time if the other two options aren’t available.

STRanger.5120:

Simple answer, Thieves(and mesmers FYI) can finish ppl while stealthed, because they don´t have better option like other classes (stability or invulnerability or both is much better than stealth in this case).
And we can be finished while in stealth, so no problem here, until Anet fixes channeling on invisible targets (which is another great flaw in stealth design imho…)

First off, I said, “If a player can finish…” I wasn’t referring to thieves exclusively seeing as there are obviously multiple ways any profession can acquire stealth.

Secondly, thieves have five skills that grant stealth. The profession with the most access to stability-granting skills is the warrior with a maximum of three sources. So thieves are actually ahead, if you want to consider stealth a substitute for stability. The only skill that allows a player to finish somebody with the aid of invulnerability is Obsidian Flesh. Unfortunately, the focus isn’t all that viable of a weapon for an elementalist in PvP.

Thirdly, there is no downed skill that grants stability for any profession. And even if there was, stability doesn’t negate being finished. Elementalists have access to invulnerability when downed, but normally only have one opportunity to use it before they’re finished, balancing them with every other profession.

Finally, as Dee Jay said, stealthed targets cannot be finished.

ZLE.8293:

Do you realize that the thief is still lying helpless at the same place he vanished?

The fact that he’s still alive at all after a second stomp is the exact problem I’m trying to address.

stof.9341:

The next time you are getting stomped by a stability powered guardian or an invulnerable elementalist and a thief comes and stealths you, you’d better tell him how it is such crap that you can avoid stomps with stealth.

You can deal damage and target a player with stability, which in some cases could be enough to decide whether or not they live to finish you. As I stated above, Obsidian Flesh is the only skill that does not restrict you from finishing a player while invulnerable. Mist Form can be used mid-cast, but there’s still an opportunity for the elementalist to be interrupted. You can’t interrupt what you can’t see.

You do understand that you can both damage and knockback/knockdown a stealthed player who is trying to finish you? You should know about how long a finisher is and always assume a thief you see stealth near you has started one and use your defensive ability at the right time. If you have other players around you, it just takes one knock-back from one of them to get you back up.

When comparing downed states, I really don’t see the problem when Eles get a 1000 range immunity bubble around all keeps and safety doors since they can mist form to safety and res themselves up.

Alex Kelley.2748:

STRanger.5120:

Simple answer, Thieves(and mesmers FYI) can finish ppl while stealthed, because they don´t have better option like other classes (stability or invulnerability or both is much better than stealth in this case).
And we can be finished while in stealth, so no problem here, until Anet fixes channeling on invisible targets (which is another great flaw in stealth design imho…)

First off, I said, “If a player can finish…” I wasn’t referring to thieves exclusively seeing as there are obviously multiple ways any profession can acquire stealth.

Secondly, thieves have five skills that grant stealth. The profession with the most access to stability-granting skills is the warrior with a maximum of three sources. So thieves are actually ahead, if you want to consider stealth a substitute for stability. The only skill that allows a player to finish somebody with the aid of invulnerability is Obsidian Flesh. Unfortunately, the focus isn’t all that viable of a weapon for an elementalist in PvP.

Thirdly, there is no downed skill that grants stability for any profession. And even if there was, stability doesn’t negate being finished. Elementalists have access to invulnerability when downed, but normally only have one opportunity to use it before they’re finished, balancing them with every other profession.

Finally, as Dee Jay said, stealthed targets cannot be finished.

ZLE.8293:

Do you realize that the thief is still lying helpless at the same place he vanished?

The fact that he’s still alive at all after a second stomp is the exact problem I’m trying to address.

stof.9341:

The next time you are getting stomped by a stability powered guardian or an invulnerable elementalist and a thief comes and stealths you, you’d better tell him how it is such crap that you can avoid stomps with stealth.

You can deal damage and target a player with stability, which in some cases could be enough to decide whether or not they live to finish you. As I stated above, Obsidian Flesh is the only skill that does not restrict you from finishing a player while invulnerable. Mist Form can be used mid-cast, but there’s still an opportunity for the elementalist to be interrupted. You can’t interrupt what you can’t see.

That last part’s where you’re wrong. Thieves get interrupted all the time by CC’s, be it Guardian’s pulse, the AoE of a ally who’s wise to the thief, or stray CC.

Back in the beta’s Shadow Escape used to teleport you away at a random location…
On a different floor,on a roof,on the other side of a wall…e.t.c.THAT was OP i agree,but the current state of the game i would say thief downed skills are at the lower end compared to others.

Alex Kelley.2748:

The fact that he’s still alive at all after a second stomp is the exact problem I’m trying to address.

You do understand that the downed skill 3 starts in CD right? Why wouldn’t a thief be allowed to use it’s skill 3 to avoid a stomp?

You know that I have more often avoided 3 stomps in a row on my engineer than on my thief?

Alex Kelley.2748:

You can deal damage and target a player with stability, which in some cases could be enough to decide whether or not they live to finish you. As I stated above, Obsidian Flesh is the only skill that does not restrict you from finishing a player while invulnerable. Mist Form can be used mid-cast, but there’s still an opportunity for the elementalist to be interrupted. You can’t interrupt what you can’t see.

If you interrupt the elementalist before he uses mist form, you didn’t save much. You see, you need to interrupt the stomp at the end of it’s cast bar to save as much time as possible. Doing your interrupt before the cast starts at all only saves you 1-2s max.

@Alex Kelley.2748:

So, Stealth cannot be compared to stability/invulnerability in any way, cause you are still vulnerable to dmg/any condition or knockdown in stealth. And please show me which Thief has all of his stealth abilities at once, so I can laugh at him, because he probably cannot do anything else

You forgot the Elementalists Mist form as an invulnerability stomp option (not only the focus skill is available). Also you´re forgot about Endure pain warrior ability for the same usage posibility.
Please try this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skill before you post anything else about the classes skill options and try to take in consideration that there are actually some builds in the game, I doubt that someone would build around stealth/invul/stability stomps if those abilities don´t fit in his actual build he like/sees effective….

Stealth stomps are caused by ppl who don´t know how to counter that, which is unfortunately the big part of WvW population, sorry, just my experience…

Edit: Unless you are talking about the mystic 30/30/30/30/30 build with 10 utility slots. In that case, I take my post back…

Is this really a whine thread about thieves stomping while stealthed? Which, as other people correctly pointed, CAN be interrupted by aoe, no-target interrupting skills even while stealthed?

I hope that you’ll never get stomped by a thief that uses Black Powder as a “sure” finisher, which is even way better than stealth-stomp (it negates guardian’s pulse, necro’s fear, etc.), or you’ll get out of your mind.

Should thieves whine if they get downed, use the #2 teleport and then get killed by a GS warrior that just presses the #2 HB key?

I don’t get all this hating regarding the thief profession, it’s not even remotely the OP class that people tend to think it is…

Galandil.9641:

Is this really a whine thread about thieves stomping while stealthed? Which, as other people correctly pointed, CAN be interrupted by aoe, no-target interrupting skills even while stealthed?

I hope that you’ll never get stomped by a thief that uses Black Powder as a “sure” finisher, which is even way better than stealth-stomp (it negates guardian’s pulse, necro’s fear, etc.), or you’ll get out of your mind.

Should thieves whine if they get downed, use the #2 teleport and then get killed by a GS warrior that just presses the #2 HB key?

I don’t get all this hating regarding the thief profession, it’s not even remotely the OP class that people tend to think it is…

Thief is OP to bads because they don’t want to learn mechanics. They just want things to be simple.

Ohh, guys. You don´t know? We can´t be killed, because we are invisible, sure thing…

/irony

STRanger.5120:

Ohh, guys. You don´t know? We can´t be killed, because we are invisible, sure thing…

/irony

- Activate any channeling ability, kill thief while in stealth, laugh. -

Soooo OP.

Alex Kelley.2748:

I just have a simple question: If a player can finish somebody while stealthed, why are thieves immune to being finished after they’ve used their smoke bomb to vanish? I fail to see why a thief should be any more difficult to finish than any other downed player of a different profession.

To reiterate the point some other people are getting at: Downed stealth is skill #3, the purpose of downed skill #3, regardless of profession, is to stop finishers.

You’re trying to link two completely separate arguments. The functionality of thief downed skill #3 doesn’t have anything to do with finishing in stealth just because they share the stealth mechanic.

For the other implied argument (that stealthed stomps are unbalanced), I would put forth that they are well balanced with other kinds of safety stomps. Stealth stomp is the easiest of any safety stomp to counter with the exception of 1v1, wherein the first to go down should die anyways barring extraneous circumstances.

Stiv.1820:

You do understand that you can both damage and knockback/knockdown a stealthed player who is trying to finish you? You should know about how long a finisher is and always assume a thief you see stealth near you has started one and use your defensive ability at the right time. If you have other players around you, it just takes one knock-back from one of them to get you back up.

Every profession has access to a skill that can serve as a method of interrupting a target that is finishing you. The problem is that some of those skills require a target. If the player finishing you is stealthed, you are unable to target them, and therefore cannot interrupt them.

Dual.8953:

That last part’s where you’re wrong. Thieves get interrupted all the time by CC’s, be it Guardian’s pulse, the AoE of a ally who’s wise to the thief, or stray CC.

But a Guardian can only use his pulse as a means to interrupt the thief ONCE while the guardian is downed. A thief can teleport away and stealth to avoid being stomped at least TWICE.

stof.9341

You do understand that the downed skill 3 starts in CD right? Why wouldn’t a thief be allowed to use it’s skill 3 to avoid a stomp?

If you interrupt the elementalist before he uses mist form, you didn’t save much. You see, you need to interrupt the stomp at the end of it’s cast bar to save as much time as possible. Doing your interrupt before the cast starts at all only saves you 1-2s max.

1) And it is finished recharging in time to avoid an immediate second stomp after the thief has teleported away and whoever is trying to finish them has ran to their new location. This isn’t the case for any other profession, so I’m not sure why there should be an exception.

2) Mist Form lasts exactly long enough to finish one stomp. There is no way of leaving Mist Form once it is entered, so if the player is interrupted before they’ve entered Mist Form, they’re unable to attempt another stomp until the cantrip has ended.

STRanger.5120:

@Alex Kelley.2748:

So, Stealth cannot be compared to stability/invulnerability in any way, cause you are still vulnerable to dmg/any condition or knockdown in stealth. And please show me which Thief has all of his stealth abilities at once, so I can laugh at him, because he probably cannot do anything else

You forgot the Elementalists Mist form as an invulnerability stomp option (not only the focus skill is available). Also you´re forgot about Endure pain warrior ability for the same usage posibility.
Please try this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skill before you post anything else about the classes skill options and try to take in consideration that there are actually some builds in the game, I doubt that someone would build around stealth/invul/stability stomps if those abilities don´t fit in his actual build he like/sees effective….

Stealth stomps are caused by ppl who don´t know how to counter that, which is unfortunately the big part of WvW population, sorry, just my experience…

Edit: Unless you are talking about the mystic 30/30/30/30/30 build with 10 utility slots. In that case, I take my post back…

The only weapon skill that grants stealth is Cloak and Dagger (Dagger Skill #5). There is one healing skill and three utility skills that grant stealth. If you’re at all familiar with how combat in this game works, you can clearly see that all five of these skills could be placed into a single build if a player wished to do so. My statement remains valid.

I included Mist Form in my post; you just didn’t finish reading it entirely before you responded.

The only thing in your response that is actually true is that I forgot to mention Endure Pain. But yeah, Endure Pain.

Galandil.9641:

Is this really a whine thread about thieves stomping while stealthed? Which, as other people correctly pointed, CAN be interrupted by aoe, no-target interrupting skills even while stealthed?

Uhm… No, that’s not what it is at all. Let me reiterate for you. I’m asking why a downed player in stealth cannot be finished if a player in stealth can finish a downed player. Hope you understood it that time!

Tulisin.6945:

To reiterate the point some other people are getting at: Downed stealth is skill #3, the purpose of downed skill #3, regardless of profession, is to stop finishers.

You’re trying to link two completely separate arguments. The functionality of thief downed skill #3 doesn’t have anything to do with finishing in stealth just because they share the stealth mechanic.

For the other implied argument (that stealthed stomps are unbalanced), I would put forth that they are well balanced with other kinds of safety stomps. Stealth stomp is the easiest of any safety stomp to counter with the exception of 1v1, wherein the first to go down should die anyways barring extraneous circumstances.

The problem is the #3 skill for all other professions does not guarantee that all stomps will be avoided in the way stealth does for a downed thief. (I mean, the warrior skill does. But there’s rarely enough time for it to recharge since their interrupt leaves them in the same spot just waiting for the second stomp to begin. And even if they do manage to use it, they’re dead when it ends.)

And it’s not that I think stealth stomping is unbalanced. I just think that the use of stealth to aid or avoid stomping should be a two-way street.

Alex Kelley.2748:

1) And it is finished recharging in time to avoid an immediate second stomp after the thief has teleported away and whoever is trying to finish them has ran to their new location. This isn’t the case for any other profession, so I’m not sure why there should be an exception.

No it isn’t ready. Unless you slack with the stomping.

Alex Kelley.2748:

2) Mist Form lasts exactly long enough to finish one stomp. There is no way of leaving Mist Form once it is entered, so if the player is interrupted before they’ve entered Mist Form, they’re unable to attempt another stomp until the cantrip has ended.

This situation is so unlikely XD And interrupting the elementalist early like that is a gamble that in the best situation only wins you as long as one finishing animation. Which is never enough to allow you to use your skill #3. And in the worse throws your interrupt right into mist form anyway.

Alex Kelley.2748:

Uhm… No, that’s not what it is at all. Let me reiterate for you. I’m asking why a downed player in stealth cannot be finished if a player in stealth can finish a downed player. Hope you understood it that time!

Yes, he can be finished even in stealth, if he stays in the place (most likely, because his teleport is on CD from the first finish evading), as all the ppl know, stealth doesn´t interrupt channeling, which finishing basically is. I hope you get it.
But if you´re too slow, of course you can´t finish him, but that is just your fault, the stealth is for 3 secs, put an AOE on him and just finish him after he appears again, or just kill him with dmg, you know where he is.

STRanger.5120:

Yes, he can be finished even in stealth, if he stays in the place (most likely, because his teleport is on CD from the first finish evading), as all the ppl know, stealth doesn´t interrupt channeling, which finishing basically is. I hope you get it.
But if you´re too slow, of course you can´t finish him, but that is just your fault, the stealth is for 3 secs, put an AOE on him and just finish him after he appears again, or just kill him with dmg, you know where he is.

No the stealth does prevent finish from connecting. It must have been coded specifically like that too since indeed, stealth doesn’t prevent any other channeling attack from hitting you for the full duration.

Alex Kelley.2748:

Every profession has access to a skill that can serve as a method of interrupting a target that is finishing you. The problem is that some of those skills require a target. If the player finishing you is stealthed, you are unable to target them, and therefore cannot interrupt them.

And now tell me how you´re gonna interrupt someone else with stability/invulnerability? Got the point, or just ignoring the facts that was mentioned here multiple times?

stof.9341:

No the stealth does prevent finish from connecting. It must have been coded specifically like that too since indeed, stealth doesn’t prevent any other channeling attack from hitting you for the full duration.

So you´re telling me that I´m the only one Thief in this game who can be finished while in stealth?

STRanger.5120:

So you´re telling me that I´m the only one Thief in this game who can be finished while in stealth?

Yes. I know I use stealth at the last moment when people want to finish me and it works 100% of the time to prevent the channeling from connecting. And it wasn’t me using the teleport because at that point it’s usually in CD.

What you need to know is that the stealth doesn’t break the channeling indeed, it only prevents the finish from connecting. The downed stealth lasts only 2s so if you use it too soon, like right after the finish animation starts, or if you attack after stealthing you’ll be out of stealth right away and visible when the finish ends, and you die.

There is a similar issue to worry with mesmer downed 2. If you don’t teleport far away enough that you are out of range, and if you attack too soon, you get killed anyway.

stof.9341:

STRanger.5120:

So you´re telling me that I´m the only one Thief in this game who can be finished while in stealth?

Yes. I know I use stealth at the last moment when people want to finish me and it works 100% of the time to prevent the channeling from connecting. And it wasn’t me using the teleport because at that point it’s usually in CD.

What you need to know is that the stealth doesn’t break the channeling indeed, it only prevents the finish from connecting. The downed stealth lasts only 2s so if you use it too soon, like right after the finish animation starts, or if you attack after stealthing you’ll be out of stealth right away and visible when the finish ends, and you die.

There is a similar issue to worry with mesmer downed 2. If you don’t teleport far away enough that you are out of range, and if you attack too soon, you get killed anyway.

I´m traited for longer stealth, so an early activation of the downed stealth is not an issue to me…
An idea has come to my mind, doesn´t the smoke bomb (downed stealth) actually blind ppl in some radius around you? You know, like blinding powder for example…

STRanger.5120:

I´m traited for longer stealth, so an early activation of the downed stealth is not an issue to me…
An idea has come to my mind, doesn´t the smoke bomb (downed stealth) actually blind ppl in some radius around you? You know, like blinding powder for example…

No but maybe with the trait in shadow arts it does. Anyway, blind doesn’t prevent finish from working in the first place.

Also even with longer stealth, I think if you use it early it’ll still end before the finish animation connects. Finish lasts about 3s, maybe a little more.

stof.9341:

STRanger.5120:

I´m traited for longer stealth, so an early activation of the downed stealth is not an issue to me…
An idea has come to my mind, doesn´t the smoke bomb (downed stealth) actually blind ppl in some radius around you? You know, like blinding powder for example…

No but maybe with the trait in shadow arts it does. Anyway, blind doesn’t prevent finish from working in the first place.

Also even with longer stealth, I think if you use it early it’ll still end before the finish animation connects. Finish lasts about 3s, maybe a little more.

Hmm, I should put this to the test, because we clearly have a different opinions on this But getting downed is not my favourite action at all

The blinding powder ability will save us from 1 stomp, it’s not gamebreaking.
OP might as well ask “If a mesmer’s phantasm can hit you while you’re downed, why can he still replace himself with a clone when he’s downed?”
Thieves aren’t much harder to finish than other classes. I believe ele has the best downed state with their mist form at the moment.

In my opinion skill #3 on all classes should act as a form of interrupt to enable you to dodge or avoid a stomp. Now I suspect what you want to occur is for skill #3 to not interrupt an action or spell such that despite using skill #3 the thief still gets hit regardless.

AFAIK skill #3 doesn’t grant immunity, just stealth. Therefore AOEs could still hit the thief. Makes perfect sense that you shouldn’t be able to see something that is stealthed, nor target it directly.

Finishing a player whilst stealthed is no different than using any stealth damage skill save for the fact that the stomp action animation is really long.

Elementalists can stomp while in Mist Form.

Warriors and Guardians can stomp with Stability.

Necro can stomp in Death Shroud.

I’m not sure if Engineer has anything consistent for stomping, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Mesmers can stomp with the extremely overpowered Distortion or with Stealth (they have access to both, thief is not the only class that can stealth). Distortion also doesn’t interrupt finishing, so if they have 30 points in the Illusions trait line, as most Mesmers will, they are able to use Distortion right as you try to interrupt them and become invulnerable without interrupting their finish.

Thief can stomp while stealthed.

Now, what is the problem again? Every class has ways to stomp you without you being able to interrupt them, except possibly Ranger (Engineer can randomly, so I wouldn’t really count them). I just don’t see how only the thief is OP just because they can do it while stealthed (while they can still be interrupted, so I don’t see the problem here).

It’s actually the easiest to counter. If you’re playing a Guardian and a Mesmer is about to stomp you, then you try to interrupt it, but he used his F4 ability that is on every weapon combination, you are going to die and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Alex Kelley.2748:

2) Mist Form lasts exactly long enough to finish one stomp. There is no way of leaving Mist Form once it is entered, so if the player is interrupted before they’ve entered Mist Form, they’re unable to attempt another stomp until the cantrip has ended.

In WvW the elementalist’s Mist Form is 10x better than any of the thief downed skills. This is because it is able to go through tower/keep portals to get them to safety. None of a thiefs downed abilities can do this.

You just need to accept that each class has abilities that are better in some ways but worse in others. ‘Balance’ doesn’t mean making every class identical so nobody can do anything another class can’t. That would make for an incredibly boring game.

stof.9341:

Alex Kelley.2748:

1) And it is finished recharging in time to avoid an immediate second stomp after the thief has teleported away and whoever is trying to finish them has ran to their new location. This isn’t the case for any other profession, so I’m not sure why there should be an exception.

No it isn’t ready. Unless you slack with the stomping.

Reiterating this as someone who has both finished by thieves and been finished as a thief. #3 only ever gets used if the finisher is slacking or being distracted by my allies. What will cause you grief when trying to finish a thief, however, is not canceling your finisher when they shadowstep away. You cancel and roll to their new location immediately and they’ll never get that #3 off.

I think we can just agree this is a L2P issue for the OP. It seems like he plays an Ele which has a better stomp and downed state in Mist form. He probably doesn’t like the fact that Thief’s downed #2 is one of the only ones that can prevent a mist form stomp ignoring he gets free first time stomps on guards, rangers, necros, war most of which can interrupt a Thief’s stealth stomp.

Lol people complain about number 3 skill?
More than half the time all it buys you is 3s before you die to anyone with the sense to just wail on you. You stay right there invisible and keep taking damage.