Fixing The Bad Skills/Weapon Sets
Now let’s look at current skills and how to fix them for each weapon set:
Cloak & Dagger and why it’s bad
Cast time, high cost, self-condition Revealed, Vulnerability insists offensive playstyle.
Problems: The inflicted Vulnerability and gained in-Stealth skill insists on this being an offensive tool, but the traits for being in stealth insist on it being a defensive tool. And for a skill that takes half of your initiative with a cast time that can miss, this should work defensively and offensively.
Fixing it: Remove the Vulnerability. Make Cloak & Dagger steal 1 Boon from the opponent instead. This then makes Cloak & Dagger a strategic skill which can be used offensively or defensively depending on the situation. Cloak & Dagger isn’t spammable and it’s a unique skill, so let’s fix it.
Flanking Strike and why it’s bad
Slow, misses, weak compared to other dual skills, bad effect for it being your main attack.
Problems: This skill downright sucks. But to fix it, all it needs is better path-finding (or an entirely new animation) and a better effect. This is your main attack. Removing 1 boon from the opponent is useless when other dual skills do way better.
Fixing it: Fix the animation or path-finding. Get rid of the 1 boon removal that was tacked on. Instead, grant 2s of Quickness if you successfully Evade. Make each hit Siphon Health from the opponent and grant it to yourself. The Sword/Dagger is a survival set so let’s fix it.
Shadow Shot and why it’s bad
Weak compared to other dual skills, blind usually blinds weak attacks, strike roots you
Problems: The problems are very easy to fix. Nothing needs to be changed, only added.
Fixing it: Keep the Blind. Slow down the dagger strike so it won’t be overpowered. Make it cost 5 initiative instead of 4. Stun the opponent for 1s if you hit them with the dagger strike. The Dagger/Pistol was once famed as the best 1v1 set so let’s bring it back to life again.
Unload and why it’s bad
Channelled, high cost, reflection decimates you, Pistol/Pistol is weak for 1v1.
Problems: Unload hits 8 different times but all it does is damage. This skill is not unique. Pistol/Pistol should be made into a viable set to be used instead of the Shortbow if one chooses.
Fixing it: Make each hit of Unload have a 25% chance to bounce to additional targets. Improve the Ricochet Trait by making it add an additional 25% bounce chance to all pistol main-hand skills (Sneak Attack, Vital Shot, Body Shot, Unload) which would make Unload be a total of 50% bounce chance and the other skills (Sneak Attack, Vital Shot, Body Shot, Unload) a 25% bounce chance.
Body Shot and why it’s bad
Pistols #1 skill applies Bleeding. Needs synergy for pistol skills, needs to be more useful.
Problems: All it does is apply Vulnerability which is more of a support condition than anything. Pistols, however, are not really a support weapon and reflection owns you. Body shot needs to do more.
Fixing it: Keep the Vulnerability. Make it cost 4 initiative. Make it remove 1 Boon from the opponent. (Opponents if it bounces) Improving Body Short will improve the entire Pistol-Pistol set immensely.
Shadow Strike and why it’s bad
Weak, all skills with this set are weak.
Problems: This set is weak
Fixing it: Make it cost 4 initiative. Make it transfer 1 of your conditions to your opponent. This gives fantastic synergy with the new Cloak & Dagger and Body Shot. Now you will have a strategic choice as well as a much needed condition removal.
There isn’t actually that much wrong with the Thief, but this will solve a lot of it.
(edited by Ruufio.1496)
just so long as we keep the risk vs reward aspects of skills like CnD
Pistol/Pistol suggestions are bad. And there’s plenty of reason to use it in WvW.
- is fine, it’s pretty much just a filler that stacks some bleeds before you burst something
- is useless because it can’t be combined with Unload, only good for supporting others… which nobody does
- needs a damage boost. It doesn’t need any other utility, it’s our single target burst… it’s just horrible weak for a skill that costs this much, is easily avoided and is blocked by every pet/clone/mob/turret/rock/grass that gets in the way.
- in pvp is only good for interrupting, doesnt stop anyone from moving and it prevents you from doing damage. IMO this should be a stun, not a daze.
- is useless in pvp, you don’t want to waste that much initiative for a skill that’s mostly effective if surrounded by enemies… which means death as P/P. And this skill wouldn’t save you.
- is fine
- needs to be changed, too expensive for a useless skill
- needs a slight damage increase because even with full pwr/prc/crtdmg and traits into deadly arts/critical strikes (gun/dual skill dmg etc) it does bad damage. (4-5k on light armor, takes 3-4 to kill something which means 8-10 seconds if they don’t dodge half of it.
- is okay but would be better if it was a stun, either way an acceptable interrupt
- just needs to be changed somehow, no point in ever using this. D/P is better off hitting #3, P/P should be switching to another weapon set to RUN ASAP.
(edited by Humorless.1573)
You just said that Pistol/Pistol suggestions are bad and said there’s plenty reason to use it in WvW, but then went on to say how much Pistol/Pistol sucks…
But anyway, as long as it’s known that Pistol/Pistol sucks then whatever. I don’t care if they use those exact suggestions but Pistol/Pistol does suck unfortunately. I love the aesthetics of it at least.
I actually don’t mind Black Powder though. The issue I do have with Unload is that projectiles are only a 20% chance for combo finisher. There’s no good reason for it not to be 100% chance. This would alone would make Unload not suck because for 12 (ALL [Black Powder & Unload)) of your initiative you get to apply Blind 8 separate times. I don’t see how that’s overpowered to completely use all of your initiative for something like that. Unload should be 100% chance for projectiles.
I agree 100% with the assessment of problems in the weapon sets. I don’t agree with all of your suggestions, but i’m not under the impression that we (the players) can come up with better ideas than the developers. We can, however, more easily identify what is good and what isn’t. So yeah, excellent job identifying what is not good enough right now.
Its important to note the intended roles of various weapon sets though and the major differences in performance between PvP and PvE. Your analysis seems focused on PvP and it is absolutely 100% on the mark for that context. PvE is a bit different though.
For example, Sword+Dagger is so terrible as to be unplayable in PvP but it is actually one of the better sets for PvE. Flanking Strike does a great job against Champion Mobs and Dungeon Mobs.
Another example, Pistol+Pistol is in many ways a much better ranged weapon set for PvE than the Shortbow is. It certainly has much higher single target DPS and stacking vulnerability in a 5 man party situation is quite valuable. Providing a Smoke Combo field for your party to shoot through is probably also more valuable then the Poison Combo field from Shortbow. In PvP I absolutely 100% want that Poison Field over a Smoke Field, but the reverse is true in PvE. That said, the damage on P+P is still too low even in PvE. Unload is underpowered basically. Should either cost less initiative or do more damage.
I don’t understand the hate that sword/dagger gets.
C&D is both an offensive and defensive ability. Defensive in that your target loses focus on you and you get a chance to reposition under stealth, offensive in that thieves attacking from stealth are given stronger and wider offensive opportunities. Sword has enough gap closing ability that getting in range for C&D is not an issue, and 2-second daze when attacking from stealth makes the ability to drop in and out of stealth even more potent. Dancing Dagger’s raw offensive power is also underappreciated. Flanking Strike isn’t S/D’s burst ability, Dancing Dagger is.
The problem is that most people tend to consider a 1v1 scenario where S/D can’t truly shine while it is easily our best weapon setup in multi-target situations. Sword/Dagger has to be built differently than other weapons and doesn’t lend itself well to just jumping over from, say, D/D and giving it a go.
Stop trying to force every weapon set into a template and consider them as a whole and you’ll appreciate sword/dagger for the amount of control and offensive strength it has.
The biggest problem with Sword/Dagger is the pathing of Flanking Strike. A lot of the time I find myself 10 meters to my right instead of spinning around the enemy and ending up behind him. I find this happens more frequently when I have my right mouse button pressed down since this lets me control the camera. If they fixed the pathing of Flanking Strike to something more reliable, I would use it. The idea of Sword/Dagger is my favorite combo
You just said that Pistol/Pistol suggestions are bad and said there’s plenty reason to use it in WvW, but then went on to say how much Pistol/Pistol sucks…
But anyway, as long as it’s known that Pistol/Pistol sucks then whatever. I don’t care if they use those exact suggestions but Pistol/Pistol does suck unfortunately. I love the aesthetics of it at least.
I actually don’t mind Black Powder though. The issue I do have with Unload is that projectiles are only a 20% chance for combo finisher. There’s no good reason for it not to be 100% chance. This would alone would make Unload not suck because for 12 (ALL [Black Powder & Unload)) of your initiative you get to apply Blind 8 separate times. I don’t see how that’s overpowered to completely use all of your initiative for something like that. Unload should be 100% chance for projectiles.
I meant that the suggestions he made are bad. He also said that there’s no reason to ever take P/P… which is wrong. There’s plenty of reasons to use it because it’s capable of single target burst which is great for WvW.
But yes, P/P is lacking.
(edited by Humorless.1573)
I agree with this. Other than D/D and Shortbow I really don’t find myself bothering with the other weapons. Maybe P/P once in a while. But otherwise… nah. I have to try sword and pistol more though. Seems fun.
I don’t understand the hate that sword/dagger gets.
The problem is that most people tend to consider a 1v1 scenario where S/D can’t truly shine while it is easily our best weapon setup in multi-target situations. Sword/Dagger has to be built differently than other weapons and doesn’t lend itself well to just jumping over from, say, D/D and giving it a go.
Stop trying to force every weapon set into a template and consider them as a whole and you’ll appreciate sword/dagger for the amount of control and offensive strength it has.
S/D is actually the best duelist set. The issue with it is that FS is totally worthless.
Nothing else.
You’re making us tragicmakers, while FS HAS issues, and our whinings are totally justified.
My suggestions for pistol/pistol, which I do use as my offset weapon except in WvW. I find shortbow to do too little damage and generally the only time I need to switch from Sword/Pistol in PVE is for single strong targets that I can’t blind like bosses/champions.
ANYWAY
1. Headshot needs to do more damage, it honestly doesn’t make sense that shooting someone in the head is the lowest damage skill I can do.
2. Unload should cripple the target. Giving pistol thieves some more kiting/defensive ability to balance it some with shortbow.
3. Body shot vuln needs to have a longer duration. As it is now by the time you move to another skill to capitalize on any vuln you stack, it’s gone. 10s base duration at least, if not 15s. Any shorter than 10s and it’s simply not worth using the initiative.
Zapp – 80 Asura Afromancer
Sword/Dagger needs people to stand up for what it is. In my opinion, it’s what thief should feel like.
Not your Spamtastic-Imatryhardtoburstyou-2222/3333.
What’s wrong with removing 1 boon everytime you use it? Many professions rely on their boons to bring an edge to the fight, why not remove that edge? Furthermore, you called it our main attack, it isn’t. Traited correctly, it allows us to dodge practically infinitely.
The cost of Flanking Strike, to the crap damage does not justify the removal of a boon.
All other dual skills other than unload had boatloads more utility.
Sword/Dagger needs people to stand up for what it is. In my opinion, it’s what thief should feel like.
Not your Spamtastic-Imatryhardtoburstyou-2222/3333.
What’s wrong with removing 1 boon everytime you use it? Many professions rely on their boons to bring an edge to the fight, why not remove that edge? Furthermore, you called it our main attack, it isn’t. Traited correctly, it allows us to dodge practically infinitely.
Point is that this skill will almost never land, unless your opponent is not paying attention/ completely dumb.
It’s slow and predictable, and auto-facing makes it impossible to give you positioning advantage.
It’s simply bad in every aspect. I NEVER use it, there’s no actual reason since the C&D+ tactical strike combo is better in every aspect.
Flanking strike needs the mesmer greatsword tweak, where they massive sped up the animations.
For cloak and dagger, the vulnerability is important for 25 deadly arts. It guarantees the next backstab gets the extra 10% damage, rather than having to manually condition the enemy first.
Tbh I think the easiest solution for P/P would be to just make do more damage. It’s single target, if you start giving it AoE then it starts directly competing with Shortbow and one will still always be chose over the other. P/P needs to do equal or close to equal damage to S/P, or at least D/D, on single target. I understand that because it’s ranged there is a inherent need for it to do less damage than melee setups, but I think the utility that S/P and D/D bring make up for the fact they are not ranged.
I do agree that Body Shoot needs to be looked at though. Also, I think Head Shot in general needs at least a 1 point Initiative reduction.
I agree Flanking Strike needs work. Sword/Dagger is my favorite set in theory, but Flanking Strike is too expensive and wonky to justify itself right now.
I’ve had it crit and crit hard while trying to play to it’s flanking ability, but it just zips around way too loose – I’ve had it completely drop me away from a stationary mob in PvE.
In theory, I like the Evade and mobility (of the whole set) and boon stripping; in practice FS needs to be tightened up and give us something on top of the boon strip…maybe Quickness on Evade?
My psychic knife. The focused totality of my psychic powers.
I have to disagree with D/P being so far down the list, if used correctly it offers very good damage.
BP – HS – BS works well, yes it costs a chunk of initiative but if you pick the right traits that is not an issue. You get to go into stealth from distance via the HS leap, I find this incredibly useful for finishing off targets.
But if we forget about the damage aspect it offers great utility with an interupt for stopping stomps / revives / cast time skills. Then the AOE blind is great for helping your team finish off down opponents without being knocked back.
Then there is the gap closer, this should be a great skill, but unfortunately it roots you a place for a short time after using it, still it does reduce the gap a little I guess, (still hoping for the root to be removed).
Also the blind makes it VERY easy to solo the keep lords & and the chieften / svanir
I guess it is personal opinion but I think the damage + utility this offers is great.
I completely disagree with all of these suggested ideas.
Cloak and Dagger is made to leave your opponent vulnerable so your next opener hits harder. If you build for Shadow Arts, you can get might from stealth to make this more effective, but you can also get might on dodge from the Acrobatic build as well. On top of these you can get might and vulnerability on critical attacks. With the way it is setup, you can use this ability and deal a lot more damage than you normally would with your followup opener.
Flanking strike has a couple of pathing issues that do need to be fixed, I cannot argue that. But the ability itself is a more controlled dodge, if used correctly (this means timed correctly), you should never get hit. Also the damage from this hits more than 1 target at a time.
Shadow shot is a teleport with a blind and is spammable (The only spammable teleport in the game!). Between this and heartseeker your enemy can never get away from you. I dont see what is wrong with this ability, adding more to it would only make it to good.
Unload I find to be one of the best skills a Thief has. This hits 8 seperate times, each hit has a chance to crit and each hit has a chance to proc an on weapon sigil. If this ability had a high ability to bounce it would be extremely overpowered and the proc rate for the Thief on abilities would be nerfed.
Body shot is also fine, if you play alone it dosent work well and is the only ability for the Thief that is played like that. If you use this often, you will be playing a support build. A short build can also be used as a support weapon, however a shortbow is not useful on single targets such as bosses, so it is fine where it is at.
Shadow strike is the most effective escape ability in the game. It is a spammable, teleport from your target. On top of that, you also have Dancing Dagger and Cloak and Dagger. This is the icing on the cake for one of the best kiting skill sets in the game.
80 Guardian 80 Ranger 24 Warrior
80 Thief 80 Engineer 0 Necromancer
80 Elementalist 80 Mesmer
80 Thief 80 Engineer 0 Necromancer
80 Elementalist 80 Mesmer
Funny. I go D/D and P/P and don’t have any major problems… What you’re saying here seems accurate on paper, but doesn’t match my actual experiences. Seems everybody hates my favorite weapon sets, and stick to using those that are my least favorite.
I hope you haven’t forgotten my role in this little story. I’m the leading man.
You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.
You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.