Guild Wars 2

Ok, We all seem to be a bit disgruntled. Nobody seems at all happy with the current state of things. So I figured it might be a good idea to not point out what was wrong, but how we’d like to see them fixed. These are what I would like to see, all or most of this, or some actual alternative that accomplishes the same functions:

Thief Base:

• Critical Strike: Replace Ankle Shots with Ricochet. Don’t argue, just do it. Make it better, if you feel like it, but the bounce is all important here, and trumps anything else you might want to do with it. Anything you think we might prefer to Ricochet, we don’t. Put back Ricochet, sort everything else around that.

• Acrobatics: Restore Feline Grace to its original form. This one is also a deal breaker. Just do it.

• Acrobatics: Restore Decent into Shadows (the fall damage trait) as an Adept trait, move the speed while in stealth trait to Cloaked in Shadows.

Basically, the more that you can give back to us that was stolen from us since launch, the better. Remember that PvP balance is NOT the primary concern, PvE fun is. If you can’t make the PvE version fun while keeping the PvP side in balance, then split skills between modes as necessary so that both are achieved. The current mix is not satisfactory. Also, if, as the rumors believe, any baseline Thief options were reduced so that the DD options would not be overpowered, that is just bad, bad, horribly lazy design. Build the Daredevil around the Thief, don’t nerf the Thief to make the Daredevil work.

Daredevil Staff:

• Better animations. Remove the baton twirl effect, it is completely impractical. A proper staff spin is more of a figure-8/butterfly pattern, three hits per rotation,repeat the opposite direction. If you try to spin it in front of you like that you’ll just get disarmed. Make the running animation holding the staff behind you.

• Weakening Charge. Make this an “arrow target” move, just like Warrior GS #3.

• Dust Strike. Instead of being a ranged blind, have it create a 240×400 rectangular Darkness Field for 2s, and then fire a Projectile through it. Still a “blind,” but also more functional as a set-up.

Utilities:

• Fist Fury. Make the Palm Strike automatic if you are allowed to use it, no extra button press.

• Impact Strike. Make the three hit string a single button press activation, like with the Scrapper’s leap attacks. Also, make the final strike generate your finisher animation in PvE, ideally every time you use it, but at the very least if you kill anyone during it.

Dodges:

• Three endurance bars is not great. It gives you one extra dodge at the beginning of the fight and is then useless. There needs to be faster endurance regen too. Restoring Feline Grace is probably enough, but more might be necessary specific to the DD. In either case, Restoring Feline Grace IS necessary. Not optional. Don’t come away with this with the impression that it’s optional and that maybe you don’t have to do it, or could do something else instead. Because you can’t.

• Provide a way to change Dodge types without having to go into the trait menu. Ideally this would either be a toggle that rotates through them on f3, or individual buttons for each on f3, f4 and f5. These don’t have to function during combat, even out of combat usage would be nice, but in combat would be very cool, and to many minds not imbalanced.

• Ideally, the GM traits would not be taken up providing the basic “alternate dodge” functionality. Ideally, the three dodges would come unlocked with the minor trait.

• Don’t forget about putting Feline Grace back to how it was.

Ohoni.6057:

Utilities:

• Fist Fury. Make the Palm Strike automatic if you are allowed to use it, no extra button press.

• Impact Strike. Make the three hit string a single button press activation, like with the Scrapper’s leap attacks. Also, make the final strike generate your finisher animation in PvE, ideally every time you use it, but at the very least if you kill anyone during it.

Both of these would actually be a significant nerf.
The key point is that the Palm Strike and the other combo don’t require you to keep the same target. You can use one person as set-up and then palm strike another target.
In PvE it’s nice because you can use it to keep the party going on a second target.

Ohoni.6057:

• Provide a way to change Dodge types without having to go into the trait menu. Ideally this would either be a toggle that rotates through them on f3, or individual buttons for each on f3, f4 and f5. These don’t have to function during combat, even out of combat usage would be nice, but in combat would be very cool, and to many minds not imbalanced.

• Ideally, the GM traits would not be taken up providing the basic “alternate dodge” functionality. Ideally, the three dodges would come unlocked with the minor trait.

It’s still really absurd that we have our mechanic locked up in the trait menu, while everyone else’s is just open and available as part of their minor.

Both of these would actually be a significant nerf.
The key point is that the Palm Strike and the other combo don’t require you to keep the same target. You can use one person as set-up and then palm strike another target.
In PvE it’s nice because you can use it to keep the party going on a second target.

I see your point, but I would still prefer them as single moves. Now, I think there is a best of both worlds situation here. Looking at the Engi Hammer jump, it seems to be capable of hitting up to three targets, even though it’s a single press. Maybe not, but either way, that should be possible. So it would be cool if you could activate Impact Strike around three very weakened PvE enemies, and it would go “hit one, it dies, retarget, hit the next, he dies, retarget, hit the last guy.” I’m not sure if any GW2 moves currently do this, retarget in the middle of the attack (doesn’t Ranger LB2?), but this would be a perfect place for it.

You could even theoretically change targets during the animation and the next attack would go for the next guy. I’d still like the one button press, the current method is just clunky for a non-weapon attack.

It’s still really absurd that we have our mechanic locked up in the trait menu, while everyone else’s is just open and available as part of their minor.

Yeah. It’s weird, in beta we get the whole thing unlocked, but in live many players will have to unlock the class bit by bit, and might end up playing a DD that doesn’t have any of the new dodges. It just wouldn’t make any sense.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah. It’s weird, in beta we get the whole thing unlocked, but in live many players will have to unlock the class bit by bit, and might end up playing a DD that doesn’t have any of the new dodges. It just wouldn’t make any sense.

The real issue is that we’ve basically been told “No actual Grandmaster trait for you!”
Which, frankly, is bullkitten and unfair.

No other Elite Spec had their Grandmaster taken away and made into an unlock for their mechanic change.

I was in a 1v1 arena yesterday running D/D on teef, I chose not run shadows arts and was owning things pretty quickly. Health did get low but would hardly die. I know D/D is meant to be bottom, just above P/P, but it’s not that bad.

Slowmelt.8547:

The real issue is that we’ve basically been told “No actual Grandmaster trait for you!”
Which, frankly, is bullkitten and unfair.

No other Elite Spec had their Grandmaster taken away and made into an unlock for their mechanic change.

Actually it would have been cool when we choose the dodge we want and get an extra effect like the swiftness on dodge of the mid gm trait but for all.
Also not locking them in gm but adept since it doesn’t really matter anyway so one can make himself familiar with them but does not have to unlock up to gm.

I don’t see them changing much from the Acro line, it’s like DD is a much better version of it; minus the new evade animations.

Actually it would have been cool when we choose the dodge we want and get an extra effect like the swiftness on dodge of the mid gm trait but for all.
Also not locking them in gm but adept since it doesn’t really matter anyway so one can make himself familiar with them but does not have to unlock up to gm.

Really, one thing people need to wrap their heads around is that there really isn’t that much difference anymore between adept/master/gm traits, since now if you unlock one tier, you unlock them all, whereas it used to be that you really had to commit to a tree to unlock the GMs. It does suck to have three traits tied up just unlocking the dodges though.

I don’t see them changing much from the Acro line, it’s like DD is a much better version of it; minus the new evade animations.

They need to fix Acro back to it’s pre-nerf state, regardless of what goes on with the DD.

As far as I can tell, the old Feline Grace gave back 1/3 of your endurance, meaning on a 100 endurance bar you could get 3 dodges in succession before running out.

Considering that the DD gives 150, and a dodge costs 50, you would have infinite dodges.

So, it won’t come back as it was, at most they can make it return 30-33 endurance, to allow 3 dodges without DD and keep DD from having infinite dodges. Though it would still give DD way more dodges than people will like… So, I doubt it will come back as it was, it will most likely remain the same due to the DD.

Also adding this thread to the Change Wish List.

Ohoni.6057:

Really, one thing people need to wrap their heads around is that there really isn’t that much difference anymore between adept/master/gm traits, since now if you unlock one tier, you unlock them all, whereas it used to be that you really had to commit to a tree to unlock the GMs.

This makes sense in theory, especially going by some of our awful GMs such as the fall damage one. Then you see something like Scrapper’s Adaptive Armor and it becomes obvious that ArenaNet still is attached to the idea of GMs being “stronger”.

As far as I can tell, the old Feline Grace gave back 1/3 of your endurance, meaning on a 100 endurance bar you could get 3 dodges in succession before running out.

Considering that the DD gives 150, and a dodge costs 50, you would have infinite dodges.

It gave back 15 endurance per dodge, meaning that if you kept dodging as fast as possible, you would go 100->50->65 ->15->30. . .50->0->15. . .50, etc. It wasn’t quite three in a row, but given the skill lag, it was close enough. If we apply it to the DD, it would be:

150->100->115->65->80->30-.; . . .forty five (why is the number forty five a curse word?). . .50, and then you’d be right back where core thief left it. That’s it. You’d get the one additional first dodge, and be slightly faster into your 4th than into the vanilla Thief’s 3rd, but after that you’d be exactly level with the vanilla Thief.

If that’s a problem though, if it comes down to it, I’d rather they remove the DD’s useless third dodge bar, than that they remove Acro’s Feline Grace.

This makes sense in theory, especially going by some of our awful GMs such as the fall damage one. Then you see something like Scrapper’s Adaptive Armor and it becomes obvious that ArenaNet still is attached to the idea of GMs being “stronger”.

Yeah, it probably varies from dev to dev how much they’ve adapted to it. The important part is that it’s taking up three traits, that could be three other things, more than that it’s the GM traits. Really at this point, it’s important to just look at each trait tier vertically, keeping watch of which other traits each locks you out of, and not caring about what horizontal slice it’s in. I don’t think the DD does a good job at this at all.

The way the traits should balance out, the top row, right to left, should be all about the staff. Not directly “buffs staff” traits, but traits that are all useful to a staff build, proc effect based on things staff can do (while also being useful to other weapons). The bottom traits, left to right, should all buff Physical utilities. Again, not all directly, but based on boosting the effects Physical skills offer. The middle row should be all based on evade, not one of them necessary to unlock the “trick” dodges, but all based on making dodging easier and/or more useful.

Ohoni.6057:

As far as I can tell, the old Feline Grace gave back 1/3 of your endurance, meaning on a 100 endurance bar you could get 3 dodges in succession before running out.

Considering that the DD gives 150, and a dodge costs 50, you would have infinite dodges.

It gave back 15 endurance per dodge, meaning that if you kept dodging as fast as possible, you would go 100->50->65 ->15->30. . .50->0->15. . .50, etc. It wasn’t quite three in a row, but given the skill lag, it was close enough. If we apply it to the DD, it would be:

150->100->115->65->80->30-.; . . .forty five (why is the number forty five a curse word?). . .50, and then you’d be right back where core thief left it. That’s it. You’d get the one additional first dodge, and be slightly faster into your 4th than into the vanilla Thief’s 3rd, but after that you’d be exactly level with the vanilla Thief.

If that’s a problem though, if it comes down to it, I’d rather they remove the DD’s useless third dodge bar, than that they remove Acro’s Feline Grace.

This makes sense in theory, especially going by some of our awful GMs such as the fall damage one. Then you see something like Scrapper’s Adaptive Armor and it becomes obvious that ArenaNet still is attached to the idea of GMs being “stronger”.

Yeah, it probably varies from dev to dev how much they’ve adapted to it. The important part is that it’s taking up three traits, that could be three other things, more than that it’s the GM traits. Really at this point, it’s important to just look at each trait tier vertically, keeping watch of which other traits each locks you out of, and not caring about what horizontal slice it’s in. I don’t think the DD does a good job at this at all.

The way the traits should balance out, the top row, right to left, should be all about the staff. Not directly “buffs staff” traits, but traits that are all useful to a staff build, proc effect based on things staff can do (while also being useful to other weapons). The bottom traits, left to right, should all buff Physical utilities. Again, not all directly, but based on boosting the effects Physical skills offer. The middle row should be all based on evade, not one of them necessary to unlock the “trick” dodges, but all based on making dodging easier and/or more useful.

While I agree something needs to be done to the Acro line < i do not think that third dodge bar is as useless as suggested. it more than just one extra dodge. It allows endurance replenishment over the course of battle that will bring one above 100. As example if we have 40 endurance left and get a hard to catch to trigger the NO bar guy gets back 60 endurance. This Three bar guy gets back 110. We can steal while at 100 endurance and gain endurance with a third bar while a two bar guy would get nothing.. Sigil of energy should restore 75 endurance rather then 50 further to that if sitting at 75 endurance with three bars we will jump to 150 for a gain of 75 as compared to old style only gaining 25.

All of these benefits which in effect make the sigils that add endurance or the runes that do the same superior to any other class using them are much harder to measure than a strict formula comparing feline grace to three dodges.

While I agree something needs to be done to the Acro line < i do not think that third dodge bar is as useless as suggested. it more than just one extra dodge. It allows endurance replenishment over the course of battle that will bring one above 100. As example if we have 40 endurance left and get a hard to catch to trigger the NO bar guy gets back 60 endurance. This Three bar guy gets back 110. We can steal while at 100 endurance and gain endurance with a third bar while a two bar guy would get nothing.. Sigil of energy should restore 75 endurance rather then 50 further to that if sitting at 75 endurance with three bars we will jump to 150 for a gain of 75 as compared to old style only gaining 25.

Has all that been tested? I would assume that at least some of these would work on fixed, rather than relative values.

Even if they all do work that way, the base regen is still low, Vigor is too weak and too often reliant on being in combat to even start, and often actually successfully dodging things, even if that’s all true, I would trade three endurance bars for classic Feline Grace in a heartbeat, and keep in mind that vanilla Thieves don’t get that third endurance bar, so they have to make due with the shambles Acro was left in. Also keep in mind that even if you intend to make a Daredevil right away, as I likely will, they’ll release a new Elite spec eventually, with new mechanics, and it won’t benefit from three endurance bars either.

Honestly, every other change could be ignored, and I would be happy if they just reverted feline grace. Acro4life

kaikalii.4198:

Honestly, every other change could be ignored, and I would be happy if they just reverted feline grace. Acro4life

Just CiS back to master tier would solve most of problems SRej is not GM level unless you are using d/p I could wait a bit for the rest of the changes.

Really so much of what’s wrong with the Thief could be solved if we could just get the Chronomancer’s Continuum Shift. . . and revert changes made to the class as far back as possible.

Ohoni.6057:

While I agree something needs to be done to the Acro line < i do not think that third dodge bar is as useless as suggested. it more than just one extra dodge. It allows endurance replenishment over the course of battle that will bring one above 100. As example if we have 40 endurance left and get a hard to catch to trigger the NO bar guy gets back 60 endurance. This Three bar guy gets back 110. We can steal while at 100 endurance and gain endurance with a third bar while a two bar guy would get nothing.. Sigil of energy should restore 75 endurance rather then 50 further to that if sitting at 75 endurance with three bars we will jump to 150 for a gain of 75 as compared to old style only gaining 25.

Has all that been tested? I would assume that at least some of these would work on fixed, rather than relative values.

Even if they all do work that way, the base regen is still low, Vigor is too weak and too often reliant on being in combat to even start, and often actually successfully dodging things, even if that’s all true, I would trade three endurance bars for classic Feline Grace in a heartbeat, and keep in mind that vanilla Thieves don’t get that third endurance bar, so they have to make due with the shambles Acro was left in. Also keep in mind that even if you intend to make a Daredevil right away, as I likely will, they’ll release a new Elite spec eventually, with new mechanics, and it won’t benefit from three endurance bars either.

Hard to catch returned full endurance as i recall. I did not get to test the others but some in the wiki claim half endurance others 100 and others 100%. We will have to test that again. That said even were those others fixed values , and I would suggest they should not be and would have to be fixed , you are still ahead in endurance payback and it not an insignificant amount.

Again if there two bars and one bar and both sit at 70 enduraance wherein a sigil of energy used. Assuming it just a fixed amount , two bar guy gets back 30 and 3 bar guy gets back 50. If it 50 percent as the sigil reads then two bar guy gets back 30 still and three bar guy gets 75.

Now if we do find the numbers fixed than by rights that should require a fix at their end. The point here is that just as with all skills a person that leverages those three bars by using specific runes and sigils and traits WILL benefit more then a person who chooses not to uses such sigils runes and traits. Further to that the fact that two trait lines now add more in the way of endurance is also a benefit. People do not HAVE to take acro to get extra dodge.

We also have to factor in just how much extra endurance will be generated by the staff mastery skill if a person chooses to take that. While this independent to an extent of that extra bar this has to be factored in when advocating for the old FG.

I am most certainly not suggesting that all is ok nor am I saying we should not lobby to get FG back. I am just pointing out that the extra endurance bar means more than just one more dodge.

To the new spec added in the future I am not sure what you mean here. Of course one who does not take DD would not benefit from the extra endurance bar but someone who never took acro old style never benefitted from FG.

To the new spec added in the future I am not sure what you mean here. Of course one who does not take DD would not benefit from the extra endurance bar but someone who never took acro old style never benefitted from FG.

Yes, but my point is, you are only allowed to take one elite spec at a time, so when they release a second Thief spec, you will have three trait lines, one the new thing, neither of the other two being Daredevil, so this new spec will not be able to benefit from the bonuses that DD brings, and will likely end up being well behind what vanilla Thief used to get in terms of dodging.

The point is, regardless of what DD offers, they need to fully restore what Acro used to bring to the table, 100%. Then they can worry about balancing DD off of that, rather than sticking with the nerfed Acro.

If we’re going to have to settle for Daredevil and everything that it (doesn’t) bring to the table, the least they could do is make each and every thing that says it restores “full” endurance restore 150 for DD. Even then, it wouldn’t stack up against old Feline Grace.