Guild Wars 2

PLEASE READ ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE POSTING:
This thread is going to be a collection of realistic suggestions that can replace Last Refuge as requested and acknowledged by developers found here: DeveloperConfirmation&Request

-Please try to keep it “Shadow Arts Related”.
-Please try to keep strengths around that of other Minor Adept Traits.

GOAL:
Last Refuge is a trait that is suppose to help you survive but can sometimes do the opposite of it’s intended use by Anet. We are here to provide the developers with realistic suggestions that can fix or take the place of Last Refuge as requested.

Possible Acronyms Used By Posters:
AOE: Area of effect= Anything that has an effect over an area usually with specific radius.
LR: Last Refuge Trait= Adept Minor Trait in shadow arts; Drop blinding powder at 25% health.
SA: Shadow Arts Trait Line= The trait line under discussion for the thief profession.
AM: Adept Minor Trait= Very first trait for any trait line for any profession.
CD: Cool Down= Many things have a timer before it can be activated again. This is referred to as the cool down of said item.

COLLECTION:
/(1) Remove the stealth aspect and increase the blind AOE radius. Blinds are still deceptive and can use the same visual effect.

/(2) No serious builds utilize Hidden Thief specially at it’s current location… It’s too weak. Other AMs buff steal. Allow SA to do the same.

/(3) First Refuge, your first direct damage hit applies stealth adjust CD for balance. Maybe switch locations with Hidden Thief too.

/(4) 2-7% Damage reduction only while in stealth. A temporary trait is better than one that does the opposite of intended use.

/(5) 7-25% Damage reduction only while in stealth and only while below 40% health. Apply the said stealth by outside means.

/(6) Gain 4-6 initiative when below 50-70% health 60-90s CD.

/(7) Average human reflex time on a visual is a little over 0.25s, immune to reveal for 0.30s after activation. Stealth Attacks cannot trigger.

/(8) Instead of gaining stealth, gain invisibility. No reveal but no benefits of stealth. Works independently. Temporary and uncontrolled.

/(9) Gain Xs of stealth, activation removes reveal as well as grants immunity for the duration, Adjust CD and durations for balance.

I like this thread. Looks like it could lead to something. A last refuge discussion that’s actually constructive.

I think 4&5 wouldn’t make much of a difference… 6 would be weird and kind of OP in a sense but I’ve read from another forum giving a great suggestion, I honestly forgot it was who(must be in one of the few LF post) he said something about being immune to reveal for a few mili seconds when LF is activated or seconds 1or2 just enough time for the player to react towards it basically.

Nephrite.6954:

I think 4&5 wouldn’t make much of a difference… 6 would be weird and kind of OP in a sense but I’ve read from another forum giving a great suggestion, I honestly forgot it was who(must be in one of the few LF post) he said something about being immune to reveal for a few mili seconds when LF is activated or seconds 1or2 just enough time for the player to react towards it basically.

/(6) Has been adjusted.
/(7) Has been added.

I like #5. Fits thematicly. Could help a lot with the sustain we sorely lack (make what little we have count for more)

I actually like it as it is, it rarely is a problem to me.
What is a problem is the condi damage that still ticks somewhere and triggers revealed. I’ve learned to wait a bit until the last arrow of my shortbow is shot but I feel I have no say in the condi ticks.

Jana.6831:

I actually like it as it is, it rarely is a problem to me.
What is a problem is the condi damage that still ticks somewhere and triggers revealed. I’ve learned to wait a bit until the last arrow of my shortbow is shot but I feel I have no say in the condi ticks.

Condition damage doesn’t trigger revealed.

Hopefully with number 5 it’ll stack up with resilience of shadows lol 90% less dmg… Just imagine…

Turamarth.3248:

Jana.6831:

I actually like it as it is, it rarely is a problem to me.
What is a problem is the condi damage that still ticks somewhere and triggers revealed. I’ve learned to wait a bit until the last arrow of my shortbow is shot but I feel I have no say in the condi ticks.

Condition damage doesn’t trigger revealed.

Throw gunk does.

Jana.6831:

Turamarth.3248:

Condition damage doesn’t trigger revealed.

Throw gunk does.

Yes, but only because the field has a direct damage tick.

Turamarth.3248:

Jana.6831:

Turamarth.3248:

Condition damage doesn’t trigger revealed.

Throw gunk does.

Yes, but only because the field has a direct damage tick.

Good, then let me rephrase this: I’d like some mechanic which prevents me getting revealed by damage I did before I stealthed, even if the tick or arrow or whatever is still in the air as I sometimes don’t have any control over it.

Nephrite.6954:

Hopefully with number 5 it’ll stack up with resilience of shadows lol 90% less dmg… Just imagine…

I imagine the effects would not stack if they did this but I see your point. #7 may be the best fix then but a even easier fix would be to just flip the spell effect from stealth → invisiblity. Don’t have to worry about revealed or stealth attacks as you are not really stealthed in the first place.

Jana.6831
The issues with Last Refuge are already confirmed and acknowledged by developers, you are in the wrong place if you want to debate if it needs changed or not. Which is funny because 2+2 being 4 isn’t something to be debated, it’s just a matter of getting others to comprehend it. Please stay on topic, I don’t want to argue with people on this thread.

Nephrite.6954
You went from saying /(5) would make no difference in one post to over exaggerating the numbers and making assumptions of OP toward /(5). Common sense lost?(I don’t want a response)

Kadin.2356
Thank you for contributing to the topic and staying goal focused. You must be a frequent PvPer or WvWer!
/(8) Has been added.

Daunt.8239:

Jana.6831
The issues with Last Refuge are already confirmed and acknowledged by developers, you are in the wrong place if you want to debate if it needs changed or not. Which is funny because 2+2 being 4 isn’t something to be debated, it’s just a matter of getting others to comprehend it. Please stay on topic, I don’t want to argue with people on this thread.

Am I please allowed an opinion? And my opinion is that last refuge is fine as it is – I wanted to voice it in one of the many threads t5hat pop up on this issue – I don’t really care if “developers” have acknowledged the issue or not, I’m just stating my opinion.

And by the way: if anet would find one solution for any of these problems without turning stealth into blinding powder, they would have a solution for all stealth related problems, so it’s not offtopic at all. but anyway: have fun.

Jana.6831
You were off topic, end of story, it is what it is. I was not trying to be rude and I’m still not. Everyone is entitled to their say and their perspective but there is a place and time for everything… 2+2 being 5 is not an opinion but if it was, this is not the place for it. This topic is beyond that. This is for the solution now that we have already established 2+2 being 4. You also don’t need to defend yourself. I respect you, but please. You are falling upon deaf ears here. This is not the place for it friend.

Edit: Wanted to be nice.

I dislike 4 and 5, as they will just add to the annoyance that p/d condi is.

I’d say #8 is closest to what the developers intended.

Daunt.8239:

Jana.6831
The issues with Last Refuge are already confirmed and acknowledged by developers, you are in the wrong place if you want to debate if it needs changed or not. Which is funny because 2+2 being 4 isn’t something to be debated, it’s just a matter of getting others to comprehend it. Please stay on topic, I don’t want to argue with people on this thread.

Nephrite.6954
You went from saying /(5) would make no difference in one post to over exaggerating the numbers and making assumptions of OP toward /(5). Common sense lost?(I don’t want a response)

Kadin.2356
Thank you for contributing to the topic and staying goal focused. You must be a frequent PvPer or WvWer!
/(8) Has been added.

It just came to my mind about resilience of shadows since I rarely use it and as you can see from the post I wasn’t serious about it. Maybe they wouldn’t even stack it if they added this new trait. You don’t want me to response but I apologise for my stubbornness.

Nephrite.6954
I understand, didn’t mean to take it serious.

Edit: I’ve sincerely encountered people of that caliber. In fact, you’re the first one who wasn’t serious while saying things of that nature for years…

Back to the front page with you! Bump for great justice!

Kadin.2356
Thank you very much!

I’ve posited my suggestion before:

Last Refuge:
25% HP – Remove revealed and gain stealth for .5 seconds. you are immune to revealed for .6 seconds. (Cooldown – 60 seconds)

The basics idea here is that as a SA trait it reinforces rather than invalidates existing stealth skills. The duration is cut as the primary point of the trait is to function as a window of opportunity for stealth at low HP when you would otherwise not have it, rather than an automatic escape mechanism that triggers uncontrollably and actively prevents you from using other SA skills.

This means you can ignore it, or actively play around it in your build, and both are valid opportunity cost actions. You can either jump in a fight and use the last refuge window to re-stealth quickly if you take a big hit, using init or cooldowns, or you can simply benefit from “on stealth” effects from other traits with it passively.

This retains the “adds reveal” counterplay accessible to other classes, but makes those skills less of a brainless instant win button against stealth based thieves, and it prevents the uncontrollable triggering of SA from screwing the thief out of tools he might have been saving specifically to stealth in case of emergencies.

PopeUrban.2578
I greatly appreciate the time and care you spent on your post, and /(9) was in fact added. However on a personal level I feel as though it balances to delicately from being greatly underpowered to greatly overpowered.

AM traits can be fairly strong. Additionally LR was meant to be a fairly powerful drop of a dime savior that could cover a large range of circumstances as well as be easily turned around into a sudden offensive burst when everything else was exhausted on your last thread of life. However… it was with the nature of the beast that it’s unpredicted… immense… failure came to light. As such the replacement needs to be up to par with what it was meant to be and what all other AM traits are.

To give an example of my initial statement, to delicately to strong or to weak. Some cross roads with your idea which many others have had, are things such as double stealth attacks. Which when we work around that it is either:

1. The duration is either appalling to short and hardly an impact on the fight and much more situational rather than being just as good in a wide variety of builds and circumstances.(which is how you had it)
2. Leaving us unable to do stealth attacks at all.

It’s as if no matter which road we end up taking it’s going to be either much to weak or much to strong based on the unavoidable nature of the beast alone. For that, I personally dislike /(9) and nothing will sway me from this simply because this is how it is. However I’m not here to silence people. I also don’t wish for arguements. So /(9) was in fact added… I’m simply saying I protest.

I’m glad this thread is staying up!

Daunt.8239:

PopeUrban.2578
I greatly appreciate the time and care you spent on your post, and /(9) was in fact added. However on a personal level I feel as though it balances to delicately from being greatly underpowered to greatly overpowered.

AM traits can be fairly strong. Additionally LR was meant to be a fairly powerful drop of a dime savior that could cover a large range of circumstances as well as be easily turned around into a sudden offensive burst when everything else was exhausted on your last thread of life. However… it was with the nature of the beast that it’s unpredicted… immense… failure came to light. As such the replacement needs to be up to par with what it was meant to be and what all other AM traits are.

To give an example of my initial statement, to delicately to strong or to weak. Some cross roads with your idea which many others have had, are things such as double stealth attacks. Which when we work around that it is either:

1. The duration is either appalling to short and hardly an impact on the fight and much more situational rather than being just as good in a wide variety of builds and circumstances.(which is how you had it)
2. Leaving us unable to do stealth attacks at all.

It’s as if no matter which road we end up taking it’s going to be either much to weak or much to strong based on the unavoidable nature of the beast alone. For that, I personally dislike /(9) and nothing will sway me from this simply because this is how it is. However I’m not here to silence people. I also don’t wish for arguements. So /(9) was in fact added… I’m simply saying I protest.

I appreciate that, but to be frank if getting your face beat in down to a 25% hp threshold on a thief means the ability to double stealth attack, that doesn’t seem too absurd to me, as it is an outcome that isn’t really within the thief’s control, given the short duration of the native stealth in the proposal. You’d have to make a huge gamble to pull it off, attacking from stealth with low enough HP to hit the threshold>purposely take damage to the threshold while hoping the target’s burst doesn’t finish you right then and there> have favorable combat position to deliver a second stalth attack within a .6 second window> continue to not die.

You could prolong that planned attack chain with a stealth skill, sure, but in order to get real value for a double-stealth attack as such you’d have to effectively pull it off within what is a normal revealed timeframe anyway (2 stealth attacks in 4 seconds) which doesn’t leave you a lot of room to abuse it without taking serious risks. In addition, you’d be affected by revealed after you blew your second skill, and presumably were still under 25% HP anyway, effectively putting you in the same combat disadvantage as the trait already does at random intervals now.

The exception to this rule is HiS, which would both heal and re-stealth the user, but in terms of PvP HiS is one of the easiest heals to interrupt, and is generally a bad play when in range for any of the melee stealth attacks (the only ones where double application is particularly worth the risk)

This would place you in a slightly stronger position, but incur even greater risk by wasting follow-up time to heal within melee range, and giving your target in creased time and opportunity to react and counter your burst.

PopeUrban.2578
Realistically speaking, I understand, and even agree. However unrealistically we need the numbers to match up and nonthiefs in the Anet team to agree. We already have the lowest dps and health. Something that makes sense isn’t going to appeal to them if the numbers don’t match what they’ve already predetermined specially with the bias beating thief down.

Drop a smoke field for 5-10 seconds. Can use that to hide in, give myself stealth, blind people and benefit the team.

Maybe use blinding powder when CCed? Wouldn’t most thieves want stealth at this point? You couldn’t really reveal yourself since you got CCed, and would prove to be a good emergency based passive as CC is usually followed by tons of damage.

WEXXES.2378:

Maybe use blinding powder when CCed? Wouldn’t most thieves want stealth at this point? You couldn’t really reveal yourself since you got CCed, and would prove to be a good emergency based passive as CC is usually followed by tons of damage.

I like this idea. There’s no way to accidentally reveal yourself.

My suggestion is dropping a smoke field at the health threshold, so you can combo it for stealth. But Wex’s idea is better.

Make it blind yourself for 1/2 seconds so you miss whatever attack happened to be ongoing.

i would just change it to
gain 50% endurance when reach health tresh hold
or
stealth on next dodge

frans.8092:

Make it blind yourself for 1/2 seconds so you miss whatever attack happened to be ongoing.

That’s actually so silly that it’s a genious fix, lol.
It’s also pretty normal to get blinded with all that dust and smoke or whatever it is you drop. RolePlayers will be satisfied, maybe that appeals to Anet?
______________________
Anyhow, I haven’t really given this thought but the topic interests me so, here’s my uneducated two cents:
How about we have it drop a smaller version of Shadow Refuge in a dodgeroll’s distance from your character?
Stays in line with it being a “refuge” and it allows the player to decide wether or not it should be used.

Shame Shadow Refuge is such a dead-easy giveaway…

EDIT (2 secs later I thnk of this…):
Now that I think of it…
That idea could actually work pretty decently if they make it in the shape of something similar to a Mesmer’s Veil? Move through that nearby area for stealth and reposition?