Guild Wars 2

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1. I love this, but it’s also pushing d/p to be the only optimal choice. The others are viable, but in doing so, you are gimping yourself.

2. With DA / Trickery being a must, it leaves us with one other option. SA to live longer, CS to burst (but die to a stiff breeze), and acro to feel disappointment. SA is really the only choice for you ‘average’ thief. Top tier 1%er thieves can probably make CS work, but for Joe Thief, its rough.

3. Feline Grace was the bread and butter for acro. The change to it is what really screws up S/D. Dodges are S/Ds lifeline. Without on demand access to stealth, S/D has many vulnerable periods.

4. I don’t like letting conditions play the game for me.

5. Executioner for me. With thief being shoehorned into the +1 profession, this helps me finish off foes.

6. Dagger Storm can be fun in zergs, but I don’t find it all that useful in sPvP play compared to basi venom. Thieves guild.. LOL

1) That’s fine, pretty much everyone got those kind of merges so it’s natural to keep up. Problem here is that stuff that was already somewhat competitive got buffed to keep up and stuff struggling to keep up in the meta (S/D) got worse. Much worse. Anything not already in the meta (P/P) will never hope to compete. No change.

2) It’s fine, what’s not fine is the removal of Ricochet. If it was going to be removed, some work could have been done to fix the Pistol weaponsets. Instead, it’s just left in the dust. Completely unacceptable.

Apart from that atrocity, Critical Strikes is fine as an addition to burst. Has some very strong damage-enhancing traits and the amount of Fury you can grab from it removes the need for Thrill of the Crime in a good few situations.

3) S/D isn’t too bad, Flanking Strikes is its saving grace. Acrobatics is still terrible – Guarded Initiation suddenly got changed to be utterly useless, Assassin’s Reward still exists, the total endurance that can be regained with the new Vigor is nowhere near enough to compete with a Stealth-heavy setup. To try and get any decent condition removal FORCES you to abandon Acrobatics in favor of SA.

4) Potent Poison is way too weak. Dagger Training is way too weak. Traps are fun for WvW. P/D has always been monstrous with abrasive condition play and doesn’t need help from any of the new traits, which is fine because they suck. D/D hybrid is too weak in both condition and power to be viable – just forget about trying to keep hybridisation and give the weapons a focus.

5) Improvisation is great and I take it in PvP sometimes, but now it’s suffering from the Venomous Aura problem. The base skills have to be less effective in order to accommodate a higher possible maximum. At least it’s not as bad as Venoms, where one or two are SOMETIMES used outside of a full Venom build and the rest are garbage. My use of Improvisation and Executioner is 50/50.

6) Not in PvP. TG get wiped out by a single glance of AoE and DS makes you a sitting duck.

Now for some rambling outside of the questions, since it was welcomed:

I understand the mentality of Acrobatics – being rewarded for active gameplay instead of spam. The problem is that the reward is FAR less than the payoff of old. Now that Vigor is so much weaker and the minor traits can’t bring it back up even to the old standard, there HAS to be more added to it to be slightly competitive. On top of that, Acrobatics needs effective, reliable condition removal to be preferred in ANY circumstance over Shadow Arts. Guarded Initiation should have stayed as Resistance above a health threshold, and there possibly could have been a way to get condition removal on dodge rolls with an ICD. Something, ANYTHING to even come close to matching Shadow’s Embrace. As it stands, everyone is essentially pigeonholed in to DA/SA/Trickery or DA/CS/Trickery if they want to play seriously, which is basically how everyone is already used to playing Thief with a few more extra points.

This balance pass did nothing to help build diversity – it just made the stronger builds strong enough to keep up and the weaker builds were left in the dust.

P/P is still the biggest issue here – it suffers from the Warrior rifle problem that got fixed ages ago. It’s too confused between direct damage and condition damage (its autoattack applies conditions while the costly skills are direct damage), and trying to accommodate both doesn’t work because both are too weak. Either the Pistol autoattack finds a way to work with power and condition damage (to accommodate P/D) or P/P becomes a full condition setup as well. P/P also needs to stop being an initiative hog and needs a way to defend itself reliably, whether that’s an addition of mobility or a change to Unload to give it 100% Projectile Finishers (to reliably blind foes through Black Powder) or something else. The worst part here is that all these issues have been present since the launch of the game, and Ricochet was the only thing that kept it marginally useful. Now, it’s gone. There is no use for P/P anywhere unless it gets a major overhaul.

only focusing condi build

i tested again venom share p/d thief with group
its strong but not a meta and cannot handle bunker guard with dd ele

for the thief to be more party play style i think venom need some rework

regarding conditions

thief (and necro) is the only class which didnt enjoy the condi buff
especially burning

poison trait is too weak only 10% which need to be buffed to 30%
also dagger poison need to be 50% so more d/d condi option
our bleeding is too weak but we have access to many cover conditions
condi thief mainly 1v1 and roaming and to make it party play style give the venom more leeching hp and dmg (and if its to op make it only for our allies)

our poison with venom share can do 1.2k dps along side bleeding 600 dps and confusion 500 dps which is right now very low compare to other condi build

venom is a problematic as you cannot make them condi cleanse or break stun as they are purely offensive utilities

so condi thief got problem if they wanna enter the pvp arena (not just low tier)

i think every class should have 2 builds option of power and condi for every game aspect (pve, wvw, roaming, pvp). but at the moment it seems condi is more roaming 1v1 build

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1. It’s okay, but the condi cleanse in SA got nerfed which pretty much screws us. Thieves needed more condi cleanse, not less. And Venoms are niche, for what they are (besides Basilisk) the cooldowns are too long, that or they need added functionality (i.e. – stun break, etc.). Pre-patch, the DA, SA, Trick spec was way better – mainly because the condi cleanse wasn’t garbage.

2. Critical Strikes is okay – but thieves right now are in need of some survival traits that work, and Crit strikes lacks this – the one it had (practiced tolerance) is gone.

3. S/D is pretty much dead. It has been my set since the game came out. As it is now, it doesn’t do the burst that dagger does, the cc it has from stealth is nothing compared to what other classes can do, and since thieves’ survivability was nerfed, the sustain from S/D is not enough, so there really is no benefit to take it anymore. If they were to un-nerf certain aspects – like remove the case time on infiltrators return and remove the hit requirement for Flanking strike > Larcenous strike, then it would probably worth to take again. But, currently, its burst or be bursted down, and S/D lacks that big initial burst (even though it does have some good damage with the Flanking Strikes trait from Trickery, it’s just not good enough compared to dagger).

3a. Acro is okay, I have tried it and liked it decently, but it could use a little buff. The endurance is okay, but could possibly use a little buff. Mainly, once again, this tree lacks the survival against conditions. Pain response is okay, but the cooldown is high. If the endurance was buffed some this would help, or there could be added some other condi cleanse. Another nerf from this was that this trait line buffed our vitality, and with the removal of stats from trait lines, this nerfed our survivability once again.

4. Condi builds on thief are lame in my opinion. These make people cry the most because they rely on stealth the most. From what I have seen, they seem to have been nerfed, and compared to other classes’ condi specs, they aren’t that good. We lack burn as a condition, so that will always make us sub par compared to others, because burn does insane damage (even pre-patch burn was still the top condi).

5. Executioner wins. Improv is fun, but its niche. Some people will take it and like it, but Executioner is more bang for the buck, mainly because the stolen abilities aren’t all they are cut out to be (don’t get me wrong, I like the stolen abilities, but using them 2 times before my next steal isn’t something I see as really useful).

6. I always switched out Elites, so I used them before and will continue to use them now.

Also, please pass along to ANet, to add the 10% base healing to Withdraw that was said was added in the patch notes, but in fact was not added.

Thank you for visiting the Thief forums. I know it’s not that dangerous of a place for you, as an Engineer you can blow up thieves with ease :P, but we appreciate you dropping by and possibly helping us get our voice heard.

2. Critical Strike changes to practice tolerance was a big change as a wvw player. Disliked at first but i adapted by replacing most of my Berserk gear with more Valkyrie gear.

6. Using dagger storm traited. Still feels the same as before the patch as a double edge sword without using a trait to heal yourself while using it. Also using it as a little bonus condition removal to go with shadows embrace changes. Not sure if will replace thieves guild for me in the long run.

Bonus: I am enjoying the the shadow arts line. It’s fun stealthing and healing allies better without always relying on shadow refuge on my utility bar all the time. I have not tried Spvp or condition builds yet.

1. Not good. Less build diversity.
2. Yes. The traits look lackluster.
3. S/D isn’t dead, but it is on life support. Acro is dead on arrival. The only thing worthy in Acro was the dodge traits. Acro didn’t need nerfing, it needed better condi removal to better compete with SA. Acro sucks now.
4. I logged in and ran around in WvW for a bit before being really depressed and logging out. The whole game is out of whack for the first time since beta. Didn’t really bother with trying a condi build.
5. Depends on the situation.
6. We took them before. Dstorm always played a large part in dealing with the LB pewpew noobs.

tl;dr
Bad, bad, bad update.

Non of my thief friends are pleased. Everything that didn’t need to happen, happened, and everything that should have happened, didn’t. I’m glad I rerolled to my Necro. Thief is in an abysmal state currently. Logging on my thief is just depressing.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1- Nothing wrong with that there are just RNG factors
2- CS is fine in design DA just offers more in 1 line I don’t think moving Executioner to DA was a good idea since thieves were already starting to go away from CS
3- s/d is fine it just doesn’t get as much traited support Acro is a mess everything there seems based on perfect scenarios the first two majors and GM are too weak,one of them doesn’t even make sense take a guess, you will most likely go in straight (all down) line with Acro
4-It’s meh with condi thief your traits only vary if you use traps or not Trappers Respite should be 10 sec ICD current state is not worth chosing over Mug I’m trying to use Trickster but the ICD is holding me back
5-Executioner wins
6-It won’t change with power use venom with condi use Thieves Guild vs players that is

There a lot of bugs going and dumb or ungiven changes, the tricks skills are not strong enough to give s/d or anything else a reason to use them, I feel like thief is taking steps back I currently mostly play necro but the update wasn’t that well received. They kind of gutted p/p and thief diversity seems lessen so overall it’s mostly negative from thief side. Again some traits just don’t make sense CiS and Guarded Initiation are an example they’re done with creativity it seems.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?*

I don’t like it, but i feel that it is essential that we can given the craziness of builds and balancing right now.

1. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?*

I disagree, the critical strikes line feels very rewarding, with master traits being the outlier. I think a lot of criticism with CS is from the fact that it was changed to boost the damage of critical hits instead of just all damage. CS feels a lot better than when it was first preview, and is a viable alternative to some builds using DA or SA, but that said there is nothing remarkable about the line- it just feels adequate. Save for no quarter- love that trait, just a fun mechanic to play with.

1. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?*

I have played almost exclusively as s/d and s/p since patch to gauge it. Despite the loss of some of the dodge potential in the line, i have found hard to catch and don’t stop to be incredible traits. The buffs made to the line in the form of these two traits offset a lot of vigor and feline grace nerf. Could it be in a better place if feline grace was pure endurance refund? i think so, but it will survive. I don’t think it will out perform d/p in terms of ganks though. S/D is viable, just not optimal or accessible at all tiers of play.

1. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?*

i have not tried a condi build as on paper it seems to lack the survival needed in the current meta to apply serious condition pressure- but i can be mistaken.

1. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?*

I still swap to them from time to time but not because they are now traitable.

Edit: formatting

Bring back ricochet.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1.) I think it’s excellent. Some traits compliment eachother but then can still work with other traits. Some can’t compete with others but I believe anet can do something about that without making the new favored traits less appealing.

2.) I believe that is mostly good in pve, but someone who is decent at evasion could pull it off all day. The thing is combining acro with trickery and using Trickster since 2 tricks are essentially evades.

3.) s/d and acro is not dead. Those players are the kind that let their build carry them and they only say that because they were dependent on Feline Grace’s endurance regeneration. They don’t understand that essentially get the same amount back. And while I havn’t been on in the past month, I can say that Don’t Stop and Hard to Catch look amazing. I wish that was done sooner.

4.) n/a

5.) Executioner still wins for me. Improv is close though.

6.) I think i would have taken them regardless, but the added type is a plus. :P

yolo swaggins.2570:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

3.) s/d and acro is not dead. Those players are the kind that let their build carry them and they only say that because they were dependent on Feline Grace’s endurance regeneration. They don’t understand that essentially get the same amount back. And while I havn’t been on in the past month, I can say that Don’t Stop and Hard to Catch look amazing. I wish that was done sooner.

Heres the math on Feline Grace and Endless stamina done by Maugetarr.6823
“Yeah, it wouldn’t really feel different if you’re already in trickery. With bountiful theft and SoH, you already have 50% uptime on vigor. Assuming you start from 0 endurance, you’ll recharge about 3 dodges in the CD of steal or 130 endurance total. With endless stamina alone, you get 142 endurance. Since you start with 0 endurance in this example, the most you could activate FG is 3 times, keeping vigor up for 16 seconds receiving a total of 165 endurance in the 21 second period. Assuming you do everything perfectly, feline grace and endless stamina result in only 35 more endurance every 21 seconds.”

That definitely isn’t the same amount back, before the patch acro gave 80% vigor uptime with bountiful theft at 100% potency, and 15 endurance back upon dodge roll.
Hard to catch was a good change but don’t stop is a gimmick.
I think you should probably log on and check the patch out for yourself. You will find your initial impressions aren’t as accurate as you thought.
As far as relying on feline grace — you are right acro thieves did rely on it to be viable in competitive situations. But how a trait line that requires extensive knowledge on other classes and good reaction time is supposed to “carry you” is anybodies guess.

You can random dodge all you like but thieves like that were never relevant in the first place.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1. Does it matter? The build varierity is even less than ever. Getting 3 trait lines sounded awesome on paper until anet decided to butcher SA, CS and acro.
2. Because crit line is bad now unless you invest into DA as well which leaves only 1 trait line…. so you either go full glass or lose utility; los of practiced tolerance was worst idea possible.
3. 0/10, must be nice killing golems
4. condi build will be always a joke in team play as every single class out there can do same job except better; besides condi thieves don’t bring anything useful to teamplay
5. depends on build i guess; DA+CS -> improv; DA + SA probably executioner because dmg is lacking and zerker amulet isn’t an option in current state of pvp
6. why… still useless, still too long CD

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1. The combination of lines was well done, IMO. It feels like traits are in the line they belong, and weaker traits were rolled into more powerful ones to create traits actually worth taking…for the most part at least. There are some real stinkers, but that’s a separate discussion.

2. I -love- the CS line, but there’s some conditions to that statement. No quarter is basically perfect – it’s unique, it gives the thief incentive to stay in combat, and it’s powerful as a GM trait should be. The minors are good, and the adept line has some choices, but the master line is an absolute joke – nothing competes with Practiced tolerance, that should be fixed. I also feel like part of CS’s strength is how underpowered SA is.
When everyone saw SA, they lost their minds, but they didn’t take into account how miniscule the healing of Shadow Rejuv is considering the new damage capacity across the board, the opportunity cost of sitting in stealth, and how useless Shadow’s embrace is if it doesn’t cleanse a condition on entering stealth. CS is basically a default because it adds MUCH more damage than SA adds sustain – if the 2 were more even, CS would still be good, but less attractive.

3. S/D is dead, there’s no doubt to that, even if your personal experience was positive. Acro is a joke in its current state. Ranger and Engineer get better dodge traits, which is strange considering those professions have actual access to protection and stability, blocks, immunity type skills, better condi cleanse, and better sustain across the board. The old S/D dodged like crazy, but because it needed to – no iteration of the thief class has ever had passive sustain or defenses. It’s always been active, and the current acro is basically worthless – 1 mistake means your death. Vigor uptime isn’t even viable without BT from trickery which locks you in two traitlines if you want to go S/D, and it doesn’t come anywhere close to pre-patch dodge capacity, and damage has gone through the roof! Less dodges for more damage doesn’t work.

4. I haven’t bothered with a condition spec. Burning is roughly triple the damage of any other condition, and thief has zero access to it. Their access to any condition that isn’t bleed is middling at best, and without consistent access to a variety of damaging conditions to beat all the cleanses flying around, it just doesn’t feel worth it. Pressure striking is in a weird place, since it looks like a great trait on paper, but has almost no practical use – what thief condi spec has access to interrupts? A condi spec wants bewildering ambush over SoH, and P/D is the only functioning condi spec thieves have (which means no interrupts from Sword MH or Pistol OH). The huge damage nerf to potent poisons was also disappointing – 10% increased damage and 33% increased duration doesn’t compete with improvisation in any spec or format.

5. Executioner, hands down. Improv isn’t a bad trait, it’s just that with damage the way it is currently, thieves don’t have the luxury of taking a trait that doesn’t either make them hit harder or 100% guarantees better survivability. If spec diversity ever opened up to allow a thief that wasn’t 100% focused on downing opponents, Improv might have a spot, but currently executioner is essentially a requirement for being effective.

6. No, BV always wins. Thieves only viable role is still that of the highly mobile roamer, and nothing DS or TG offers makes up for their CD’s in comparison to BV.

Thanks for posting this, I hope my input matters.

evilapprentice.6379:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1. The combination of lines was well done, IMO. It feels like traits are in the line they belong, and weaker traits were rolled into more powerful ones to create traits actually worth taking…for the most part at least. There are some real stinkers, but that’s a separate discussion.

2. I -love- the CS line, but there’s some conditions to that statement. No quarter is basically perfect – it’s unique, it gives the thief incentive to stay in combat, and it’s powerful as a GM trait should be. The minors are good, and the adept line has some choices, but the master line is an absolute joke – nothing competes with Practiced tolerance, that should be fixed. I also feel like part of CS’s strength is how underpowered SA is.
When everyone saw SA, they lost their minds, but they didn’t take into account how miniscule the healing of Shadow Rejuv is considering the new damage capacity across the board, and how useless Shadow’s embrace is if it doesn’t cleanse a condition on entering stealth. CS is basically a default because it adds MUCH more damage than SA adds sustain – if the 2 were more even, CS would still be good, but less attractive.

3. S/D is dead, there’s no doubt to that, even if your personal experience was positive. Acro is a joke in its current state. Ranger and Engineer get better dodge traits, which is strange considering those professions have actual access to protection and stability, blocks, immunity type skills, better condi cleanse, and better sustain across the board. The old S/D dodged like crazy, but because it needed to – no iteration of the thief class has ever had passive sustain or defenses. It’s always been active, and the current acro is basically worthless – 1 mistake means your death. Vigor uptime isn’t even viable with BT from trickery, and it doesn’t come anywhere close to pre-patch dodge capacity.

4. I haven’t bothered with a condition spec. Burning is roughly triple the damage of any other condition, and thief has zero access to it. Their access to any condition that isn’t bleed is middling at best, and without consistent access to a variety of damaging conditions to beat all the cleanses flying around, it just doesn’t feel worth it. Pressure striking is in a weird place, since it looks like a great trait on paper, but has almost no practical use – what thief condi spec has access to interrupts? A condi spec wants bewildering ambush over SoH, and P/D is the only functioning condi spec thieves have (which means no interrupts from Sword MH or Pistol OH). The huge damage nerf to potent poisons was also disappointing – 10% increased damage and 33% increased duration doesn’t compete with improvisation in any spec or format.

5. Executioner, hands down. Improv isn’t a bad trait, it’s just that with damage the way it is currently, thieves don’t have the luxury of taking a trait that doesn’t either make them hit harder or 100% guarantees better survivability. If spec diversity ever opened up to allow a thief that wasn’t 100% focused on downing opponents, Improv might have a spot, but currently executioner is essentially a requirement for being effective.

6. No, BV always wins. Thieves only viable role is still that of the still highly mobile roamer, and nothing DS or TG offers makes up for their CD’s in comparison to BV.

Thanks for posting this, I hope my input matters.

+1
Couldn’t have said it better myself

1. People ran that because its the closest to the old meta build and works darn well.
I gotta say those that we are yet to explore all new possibilities and that combination is just a transitional build.

2. Critical strikes is hitting harder than DA IMO.
Its basically our old damage back from before Ferocity.
Sad part is that all 3 adept traits are bad. And master traits are argueable.
Pretty much all 3 minors are better than the adept traits.

3. I wont say its BAD. Immobilize is now deadly against Thiefs and that line has the best counter against it.
Problem of Acrobatis is that it was reliant on dodging to work. And with the new way that vigor and feline grace works, people got disheartened.

4. Didn’t tried. Tough I can fess up and say that venons and traps are better positioned now. Gotta try this later.

5. Executioner. Improvisation depends on the situation. Executioner is not only universal, but without it DA wont hit harder than CS.

6. Testing a quickness/trickster oriented build right now and I am having fun.
I find awesome that we are now able to reduce the cooldown of elites and heal skills.

To be perfectly honest, I’m going to have to ignore your specific questions and give general feedback, because I haven’t been playing my thief much since the patch hit due to major disappointment after a few hours of trying to make a build I liked that wasn’t generic and boring….and failing. Failing HARD.

Not impressed – my thief was my main, and it seems to now be “go some variant of glass cannon burst dagger thief in every mode of gameplay to be competitive and risk imploding by being sneezed on”.

On a personal note, my main spec was P/P, a spec that let me actually manage/watch over our small guild of mostly casual/not highly skilled gamers during dungeons (love em to bits, but their ability with interrupts, positioning and kiting etc aren’t always great without nudging), as well as support and recover for them when things went very wrong. Now I can’t do that, unless I want to blow everything I’ve got on a single target for P/P and barely manage to output close to the others (compared to everyone elses ranged AOEs, and be too busy managing every CD to watch over people) or as the day of the patch showed risk melee and nearly instantly explode with a slight AOE or condition.

Seriously what happened to ranged and/or AOE thieves? They seem to be majorly lacking right now.
1. P/P and D/P thieves got botched something awful with the removal of Ricochet unless you want to single target now (but you’re better off going melee for that, assuming no AOE/conditions involved!) – it wasn’t exactly the most competitive build, but it was fun in part for the RNG nature of where it’d bounce, alongside chain random shadowstepping via S/P 3. The reasoning of removing it being “purity of pistols and too much RNG” is a poor one to completely wreck a generally sneered at oft considered underwhelming build. Rough P/P output drop of around 50%, probably higher.
2. Shortbows appear to have nearly nothing besides poison traits, but then the SB 4 seems to have a lower duration application? And those poison traits don’t help the REST of the SB skills. Unless we’re getting a mid-long range ranged or AOE specialisation with HoT, things don’t look good for thieves for more casual style players tbh.

General gibberish:
Patch in general feels like on the one hand simplifying a lot of things, the other removing far far too many options. Odd considering half the problem with access to traits came in due to a change around April last year, weighting trait gain towards higher level as opposed to spread out like prior to that, a change that meant multiple professions weren’t clear how they were supposed to be working until 70-80 due to how much traits changed their playstyles (thieves, mesmers, guardians to name the major 3).

TL:DR:
1. Ricochet – when’s it back? Too key to thief build options for too long to remove so hamfistedly.
2. Why are ranged thieves in general seemingly ignored/not really catered to as a build option?
3. Varied & fun playstyle options went down the pan with the update (mainly due to 1) unless you want to be ‘generic stabby thief’. And that’s kind of against the whole GW2 “play your way” philosophy thing isn’t it

evilapprentice.6379:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1. The combination of lines was well done, IMO. It feels like traits are in the line they belong, and weaker traits were rolled into more powerful ones to create traits actually worth taking…for the most part at least. There are some real stinkers, but that’s a separate discussion.

2. I -love- the CS line, but there’s some conditions to that statement. No quarter is basically perfect – it’s unique, it gives the thief incentive to stay in combat, and it’s powerful as a GM trait should be. The minors are good, and the adept line has some choices, but the master line is an absolute joke – nothing competes with Practiced tolerance, that should be fixed. I also feel like part of CS’s strength is how underpowered SA is.
When everyone saw SA, they lost their minds, but they didn’t take into account how miniscule the healing of Shadow Rejuv is considering the new damage capacity across the board, the opportunity cost of sitting in stealth, and how useless Shadow’s embrace is if it doesn’t cleanse a condition on entering stealth. CS is basically a default because it adds MUCH more damage than SA adds sustain – if the 2 were more even, CS would still be good, but less attractive.

3. S/D is dead, there’s no doubt to that, even if your personal experience was positive. Acro is a joke in its current state. Ranger and Engineer get better dodge traits, which is strange considering those professions have actual access to protection and stability, blocks, immunity type skills, better condi cleanse, and better sustain across the board. The old S/D dodged like crazy, but because it needed to – no iteration of the thief class has ever had passive sustain or defenses. It’s always been active, and the current acro is basically worthless – 1 mistake means your death. Vigor uptime isn’t even viable without BT from trickery which locks you in two traitlines if you want to go S/D, and it doesn’t come anywhere close to pre-patch dodge capacity, and damage has gone through the roof! Less dodges for more damage doesn’t work.

4. I haven’t bothered with a condition spec. Burning is roughly triple the damage of any other condition, and thief has zero access to it. Their access to any condition that isn’t bleed is middling at best, and without consistent access to a variety of damaging conditions to beat all the cleanses flying around, it just doesn’t feel worth it. Pressure striking is in a weird place, since it looks like a great trait on paper, but has almost no practical use – what thief condi spec has access to interrupts? A condi spec wants bewildering ambush over SoH, and P/D is the only functioning condi spec thieves have (which means no interrupts from Sword MH or Pistol OH). The huge damage nerf to potent poisons was also disappointing – 10% increased damage and 33% increased duration doesn’t compete with improvisation in any spec or format.

5. Executioner, hands down. Improv isn’t a bad trait, it’s just that with damage the way it is currently, thieves don’t have the luxury of taking a trait that doesn’t either make them hit harder or 100% guarantees better survivability. If spec diversity ever opened up to allow a thief that wasn’t 100% focused on downing opponents, Improv might have a spot, but currently executioner is essentially a requirement for being effective.

6. No, BV always wins. Thieves only viable role is still that of the highly mobile roamer, and nothing DS or TG offers makes up for their CD’s in comparison to BV.

Thanks for posting this, I hope my input matters.

I am +1’ing this because they articulated it so well.

Thief is in dire straights and needs love urgent.

lol am i the only one who testing condi builds ?

currently condi aspect of thief isnt need by any group in pvp. they want dmg, cc, support or combination of them
condi thief dont support, dont cc, and do far less dmg then any other condi class.

so buff the leech to support more with healing and dmg from 380 dmg to 500, and healing from 325 to 400
reduce venom icd from 32 to 20
give cc abilities like spider venom will poison (for 4 sec each attack) and daze for 1 sec
devourer venom will immobilize and and cripple for 3 sec for each attack
ice drake will chill and burn (2 stack of burn each attack for 3 sec each )
basilisk venom will cleanse 2-3 condition for each attack used (not hit)

the concept of venom to be able to stunbreak or cleanse is hard cause venoms are offensive and you cant put them together

condi thief should be played with a group to support you

with those suggestions condi will be more offensive and par with other conditions dmg in solo and group play
you’ll have access to burning for short spike dmg (around 2k dps for 2 sec in average so not too OP)
more cc with daze (and venom share it very nice contribution)
and more healing and dmg from leeching

then we will need to make the team to believe its working

In the spvp games I played the only instagibs I saw where by warriors and eles, I played those on a rampager mesmer and thieves where no big deal, certain warrior builds though…. (I saw a bunker guardian getting instagibbed by a warrior).

1. I prefer utility and being able to mess other people’s game up over raw damage so I like this a lot. 30303 with a mix of dire, sinister and bererker d/p and sb for me in wvw.

2. Actually it is rather good but you can not really trait into it. SA and Trickery are the best lines and you need to have those at the moment (at least with mainhand dagger) since thieves get all their much needed utility and defense there. Which leades to the question DA or Crit and that is decided by mug, mug is insanely strong and increases your overall healing by 30-40% and you need that healing to keep up with the other classes.

3. I accidentally tried acro ( since I did not realise that wvw got seperate template now). I like it, but the same point as with the crit line in 2. persists. I can see d/d working with 00333 though. I will try that some time.

4. I run a hybrid build now with about 500 condi damage (for poison obviously). I like dagger training a lot but mug is a must have, I like poison trap on healing a lot but mug is a must have, torment on interrupt sounds nice but it is in the same place as bountyful theft and that is among the best utility in the game and thief’s only way to get essential boons reliably. You see the problem I guess.

5. Improvisation, more utility is always more fun than a passive damage multiplier.

6. To trait those you would have to give up slight of hand who would even think about that. I used to run daggerstorm before the patch now with double interrupt on it in use bsilisk venom about 75% of the time.
Thief’s guild sucks even if traited the cd is way to long for what it does (just compare it to rampage…), basically 2 phantasms on a huge cd you can have those almost permanenty on a mesmer.

Generally thieves got really messed up when it comes to traits, there is nice ideas but due to the must haves to deal with the inherent weakness of the class (low armor hp and no access to the important boons) you can not really take those.

Nerfs everywhere, sold as buffs….

The only buffs thet happend happend to stuff that did not need those and was strong anyway and all the fun stuff got screwed over.

SB nerfed again, impossible to keep poison up for healing reduction with it now, 2 stacks of poison for 9 sec. compared to the burn spam and uptime in the game now was considered to strong, do not get me started on what I think about the skills and balance team…

Nobody wants sb 4 for damage it is needed for healing reduction.

Mesmer is good now, though. Untill they destroy them again (loads of nerfs already) because some 2 button warrior starts a qq fest.

>>4. I haven’t bothered with a condition spec. Burning is roughly triple the damage of any other condition, and thief has zero access to it. Their access to any condition that isn’t bleed is middling at best, and without consistent access to a variety of damaging conditions to beat all the cleanses flying around, it just doesn’t feel worth it. Pressure striking is in a weird place, since it looks like a great trait on paper, but has almost no practical use – what thief condi spec has access to interrupts? A condi spec wants
bewildering ambush over SoH, and P/D is the only functioning condi spec thieves have (which means no interrupts from Sword MH or Pistol OH). The huge damage nerf to potent poisons was also disappointing – 10% increased damage and 33% increased duration doesn’t compete with improvisation in any spec or format.

P/P trappers build using trappers runes and Basi venom has plenty of interrupts. Head shot is an on demand interrupt and since the traps used with runes provide plenty of free stealth you can still load on all those bleeds with sneak attack. You are not using CnD for stealth so can preserve INI for blinds or more interrupts.

I have found i prefer to trait a lower steal cooldown and take sleight of hand over BA as this gives yet another interrupt on a 20 second cooldown with the set. Tripwire acts as yet another interrupt albeit one harder to use on demand.

Using Withdraw as heal , three traps and Basi Venom as an elite you then have 3 different types of skills meaning 60 percent chance per 20 seconds one type recharged. One could conceivably go to BA on the trickery line for that confuion and add 6 seconds to the recharge on steal but I prefer the lower steal cooldown which gives more chance to reset utilities off cooldown and which , given its 1200 range a much needed gap closer in the set.

With Steal off a Necro or daze of a guardian you then have 4 more interrupts.

A P/P thief has oodles of interrupts. I doubt any class has more. This is a very effective build in WvW. There an option to go perplexity runes I suppose which would lead to both confusion and torment stacks on interrupt but my feeling is going pressure strike has enough condi types and the abilty to reaply quickly if cleansed coupled with an ability to stealth and reposition which allows a better ability to survive.

Something positve:

f2 changes and changes to traps are really nice less fighting against my own skills and less workarounds for broken stuff.

The lock target marker at max. range option is really helpful.

The new LA is awesome.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1>The current system when compared to the former is superior as it allows trait types that would never have been used before. This helps make a given weaponset more effective overall and is easier to focus on a line that benefits said weaponset .

2>Critical Strike line is one of the best traits lines in the thief build for its variety of usable traits all of which add something different to the build. It focuses on critical damage which it should.

3>S/d is not so much dead as harder to play as we once did. I have not tested enough to offer a valid opinion however as I have been working other builds. That said Acrobatics overall is the weakest traitline. This not so much there no good skills there as it is there are too many that are underwhelming. I can not see anyone taking GI as example. Since those going that line must take it fully they are forced into a GM trait and don’t stop would seem to just be that much better than the other two. Acro is very much a 1 really good trait at each slot and 2 that are not all that good.

4>I have a condition p/p build and it works great. very survivable and able to inflict a lot of damage. I have also played him in a d/d condi build and that set works good as well. P/d is a set I have not played since changes but I can not see it being “worse” than it was before. I do think the current P/P condi build is better than the old P/d condi build I once used. It also more fun timing those interrupts.

5>Tie. Condi build improv. Power build Executioner. Both of those are fine. The weakling is Potent poison which needs an uptweak. I can see using all three were that the case.

6>I really never took Thieves guild. I have equal use for the other two and use them equally. As example in my power build I like Daggerstrom in its current design as I am traited for tricks and that does wonders fighting groups. The reflects work great and if using IP health fills right up. If fighting in a mid sized enemy group I can stack 12 stacks might on a single daggerstorm.

Observations. I think a few minor tweaks needed in the various traits. Poison mastery in the DA line as example should be boosted. Dagger training si just about there but could see a boost in base duration of the poison.

CS line I see little that has to be changed. Signets of power is the only trait I can not see myself using at this point,

SA line . I am not sure why the condition removal tweaked down in Shadows embrace to just damaging conditions. That said the adept traits competing with Shadows embrace might see some tweaks . The merciful ambush moved to the minor was a great move.

ACRO Line. This is the major problem in my opinion and overall build diversity suffers because of it.

Trickery line. I see no major issues . Quickpockets might be a bit meh and might warrant a one ini tweak or some other effect on weaponswap.

i like everything so much^^ just got 1 quite huge pointer for you. i hope this gets to Devs cuz its actually a major thing for SA build.

i dont know if it was intended like that or not (nerfed) but now we cannot cleanse all condis once we enter stealth (like it used to be). and also we cannot regain 3 ini once you enter stealth. it was changed to “regain ini every 3 seconds in stealth”.

so ya.. i dont know if it was intended or not (cuz some people think its a glitch) but its quite a huge deal. removing all conditions and gaining initiative ONCE you enter stealth would make me perfectly happy with the update. for now.. kitten . sometimes it’s really a killer. just simply because you cannot remove Immobilized anymore. nor you gain Iniative once you enter Stealth.

hope this gets to devs.. and they would consider making those traits like it used to be cheers

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?

This is fine. The builds that got improved slightly by this didn’t really need it, but it’s nifty.

1. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?

I actually like the crit strikes line now. Some of it is a little boring as it’s just a flat precision buff, but some of the interactions and how they promote aggressive play is cool (i.e. no quarter and unrelenting strikes starting and maintaining each other)

1. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?

Yes Ihave tried it. Acrobatics suffers from the general vigor nerf and the FG nerf on top of it. Before, the front loaded dodges and sustained dodges allowed for more stealthless survivability, but now, there is less defense while playing better, and the overall damage from everyone is higher, meaning if anything we need more dodges than previously since we lack access to defensive boons other than regen. I’ve posted some math in other threads that I’m not going to repost here, but traiting Signets of Power in CS while taking Signet of Agility offers nearly the same survival as taking acro (in terms of endurance regen) while maintaining a much higher effective power. The defense gained should be a good trade off for the power lost. I would suggest rolling Endless Stamina into Feline Grace and bringing back Fluid Strikes as a trait that returns 5 endurance on crit (1 sec icd). This would allow for better survivability but only if the thief player stays aggressive . Once the opponent starts blocking, blinding, evading, or opens a gap, the thief will run out of endurance allowing him to be pinned down. IMO, that would be a nice change with plenty of opportunity for counterplay. Upper Hand needs a condi removal on successful evasion (still 3 sec icd) too.

1. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?

No. I have been attacked by a couple and they were alright. I can’t say that they were using any of the new traits, but it wasn’t anything to write home about.

1. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?

Executioner. A dependable damage increase is better than an RNG chance to recharge skills and use a skill that may or may not be helpful (throw gunk comes to mind ).

1. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

Not using either. It’s cool that they can be traited now, but their CDs rarely warrant their use. For example, in place of daggerstorm I can use smoke screen in close combat and against ranged opponents, I can gain stealth from it, and it’s on a 30 second CD. If I wanted AI to fight with me, I would bring ambush so I could venom share basilisk venom with the spawned thief before he dies in a stiff wind. 2 AI are just not worth that CD.

As an afterthought, I’m just going to repost my thoughts on tricks:

I really want tricks to be a thing. The new condi removal on tricks makes it almost work, but the tricks need rebalancing themselves.
RFI: 30 second CD, 3 Initiative gained. It really can’t compete with Shadow step at a traited 48 second CD while only removing 1 damaging condition.
Haste: Add swiftness for 5 seconds and put it on a 40 second CD and I’ll bite. While not emptying your endurance anymore, it seems like it still shortens evade frames (and possibly heartseekers, but more testing is needed).
Scorpion Wire: the skill I want to love, but it always lets me down. Have it shadowstep your opponent to you instead. Have the projectile actually be the same as the shadow shot projectile so it doesn’t get so easily sidestepped or obstructed. That’s in the theme of a tricky skill. No more pull stun though to balance out the fact that it would actually function as intended.
Caltrops: perfectly fine.
Withdraw: perfectly fine.
Quick Pockets: while not actually a trick, I feel it could be made into a strong contender for the other 2 GM traits if it would only give 1 initiative on swap, but reduce swap cooldown to 5 seconds. ->Optional Addition: Next attack removes 1 boon after swap (this would allow trickster to actually be taken over bountiful theft)

1.) The removal of Ricochet is killing a lot of us who use pistols in our builds. It wasn’t broken and having access to it when needed during heavy elite mob situations not only sped up the attack process, but it helped us heal up when needed. We need our ricochet in order to keep up on some fights. Even switching to the short bow doesn’t help at all and produces slow attacks with below par numbers. There really is no way around ricochet.

2.) Pistol mastery for the 10% damage buff is pretty much the only thing that helped pistol builds stay up with the numbers. Without this, even the Unload ability puts out numbers that are just barely skimming by.

Over all, pistol builds got hurt more than anything in the last patch. This needs to be addressed ASAP (there are a lot of angry players).

I’m playing the forgotten build: D/D. And I play the forgotten game mode: wvw.
I really like the idea that I can now finally take the trickery line to have some utility which D/D is missing. I am not happy about the CnD nerf – but that is a bit more complicated as the overall damage right now is that high that I can’t really say the nerf makes a difference. But if the overall damage will be nerfed it probably will.

I don’t think I would be able to survive any of the situations that kill me right now in wvw even if the SA line hadn’t been butchered (condi builds and being outnumbered by one +). I needed the condi removal of whatever condis in stealth, I needed cloaked in shadows and I didn’t need infusion of shadows. The SA line as it currently is might be great for D/P but it isn’t for D/D.

But like I said before: It’s very hard to tell where buffs and nerfs are needed as long as the overall damage output is that insane. We tried to hold a fully sieged T3 bay with 10 against 25 and stood no chance – we couldn’t even get on the walls because everything was plastered with AoE fields, which insta killed us, our siege was destroyed by an AC they built outside – it was hopeless and that shouldn’t be.

So it’s really hard to test anything in wvw right now because the avarage time one stays alive is 15 seconds.

evilapprentice.6379:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1. The combination of lines was well done, IMO. It feels like traits are in the line they belong, and weaker traits were rolled into more powerful ones to create traits actually worth taking…for the most part at least. There are some real stinkers, but that’s a separate discussion.

2. I -love- the CS line, but there’s some conditions to that statement. No quarter is basically perfect – it’s unique, it gives the thief incentive to stay in combat, and it’s powerful as a GM trait should be. The minors are good, and the adept line has some choices, but the master line is an absolute joke – nothing competes with Practiced tolerance, that should be fixed. I also feel like part of CS’s strength is how underpowered SA is.
When everyone saw SA, they lost their minds, but they didn’t take into account how miniscule the healing of Shadow Rejuv is considering the new damage capacity across the board, the opportunity cost of sitting in stealth, and how useless Shadow’s embrace is if it doesn’t cleanse a condition on entering stealth. CS is basically a default because it adds MUCH more damage than SA adds sustain – if the 2 were more even, CS would still be good, but less attractive.

3. S/D is dead, there’s no doubt to that, even if your personal experience was positive. Acro is a joke in its current state. Ranger and Engineer get better dodge traits, which is strange considering those professions have actual access to protection and stability, blocks, immunity type skills, better condi cleanse, and better sustain across the board. The old S/D dodged like crazy, but because it needed to – no iteration of the thief class has ever had passive sustain or defenses. It’s always been active, and the current acro is basically worthless – 1 mistake means your death. Vigor uptime isn’t even viable without BT from trickery which locks you in two traitlines if you want to go S/D, and it doesn’t come anywhere close to pre-patch dodge capacity, and damage has gone through the roof! Less dodges for more damage doesn’t work.

4. I haven’t bothered with a condition spec. Burning is roughly triple the damage of any other condition, and thief has zero access to it. Their access to any condition that isn’t bleed is middling at best, and without consistent access to a variety of damaging conditions to beat all the cleanses flying around, it just doesn’t feel worth it. Pressure striking is in a weird place, since it looks like a great trait on paper, but has almost no practical use – what thief condi spec has access to interrupts? A condi spec wants bewildering ambush over SoH, and P/D is the only functioning condi spec thieves have (which means no interrupts from Sword MH or Pistol OH). The huge damage nerf to potent poisons was also disappointing – 10% increased damage and 33% increased duration doesn’t compete with improvisation in any spec or format.

5. Executioner, hands down. Improv isn’t a bad trait, it’s just that with damage the way it is currently, thieves don’t have the luxury of taking a trait that doesn’t either make them hit harder or 100% guarantees better survivability. If spec diversity ever opened up to allow a thief that wasn’t 100% focused on downing opponents, Improv might have a spot, but currently executioner is essentially a requirement for being effective.

6. No, BV always wins. Thieves only viable role is still that of the highly mobile roamer, and nothing DS or TG offers makes up for their CD’s in comparison to BV.

Thanks for posting this, I hope my input matters.

+1

1. Many merges were necessary however I feel like some of them were not thought through enough. By this I mean before people were limited from being obviously OP by being restricted to a lesser number of traits, now you got more freedom which in some builds is great, but the already strong builds only got stronger meaning those not so viable builds really didn’t go far.

2. Before CS had a little more sustain built into it with the minor trait to gain init on crit and the old Practiced Tolerane, now its more of just go in and go deep. Not to mention p/p was looking pretty awesome having ricochet and pistol mastery together and then last minute they removed ricochet without implementing it in any way. For damage I think its a great trait line but it ended up doing nothing for a lot of builds.

3. On paper acrobatics looks great especially having so many traits heavily dedicated to mobility. However in practice it is most definitely not the same. I wouldn’t say its a bad trait line but its going to take some getting used to and more than likely a few adjustments.

4. I don’t really enjoy condition thief, not to mention the only interrupts thief can execute are tied to power builds so that new condition trait (torment on interrupt) doesn’t do a whole lot. For poison master, the damage increase for being a GM trait on a rather weak condition doesn’t appeal to me. The needle trap on healing skill I actually use more on a power build than condition because it helps landing a backstab against an immobile target.

5. Executioner, 20% is pretty big and not all stolen skills are useful in all situations. Thankfully the F2 helped out on that but still.

6. Thieves guild still functions poorly so no matter what they tie it to, it won’t get my vote until those thieves last longer than 10 seconds in a fray. As for dagger storm it isn’t really any better being a skill you can alter with a trait, it’s best and only function is to counter someone’s projectile burst and that doesn’t change much being a 72 second cooldown with 1 condition removed.

All in all, I wasn’t really happy with this patch for thieves. Not only did it ruin certain builds further, the builds that had a shot at shining got out shined by the already popular (and very powerful) builds from also getting buffed. There was no real change to any of our utility or weapon skills which is also a major issue with some builds underperforming and our sustain was hurt a lot which is something thieves lacked prior to this patch.

Some thoughts:

Deadly Arts:
(I) Dagger Training: 2 seconds poison seems too short for condition/hybrid builds.
(V) Panic Strike: Can be a problem in PvE, some bosses are allergic against cc.
But for PvE there is no other useful trait in this tier, I don’t think many people play trapper-thief and revealed is not important in PvE.
(VII) Potent Poison: +10% poison damage is not enough for a greatmaster trait.

Shadow Arts:
(II) Concealed Defeat and (III) Shadow’s Embrace are in the same tier so you cannot take both... this should be changed.
When you work with stealth a lot you want both traits.
Also the changes made on Shadows’ Embrace should be reverted, it’s the best condition removal for thief.

Acrobatics:
(IV) Guarded Initiation: Not sure about this, when and for how long are you over 90% health?
Maybe something like ((X% chance to) remove 1 condition per critical hit would be more useful?
(V) Swindlers Equilibrium: Not sure about this eihter, I don’t play with sword.
But it seems unfair that only sword thieves get the bonus.
(VIII) Upper Hand: I want Opportunist back. Nuff said.

Removes traits:
Opportunist: I want it back please. Thief need this one so badly!
Feline Grace: Thief is all about mobility, please give us back this trait.
Practised Tolerance: Thief is a class with small healthpool, I want this trait back.
Critical Haste: I miss it, why has it been removed?

My overview on this trait line

Acrobatic : Minors
Expeditous Dodger : great trait for thief.
Fleet Shadow : probably will never be used
Vigorous Recovery: is fine not the best i would of like to seen vigor an might together
Pain Response: Probably best trait in the line, CD i would of like to see go down maybe 15 or even 10 since it forces you pick up another con removal line with that high of a CD.

Majors
Feline Grace : is a joke… honestly i think it should be merge with endless stamina an given a new grand master trait
Guarded Initation: This one is also a joke, Not only does it remove con that does not honestly effect a thief your hp never be that high on 95% of builds.
Swinder’s Equilibrium: i play with this one for a bit it does not recharge steal fast enough to be worth it. buff 3 or even 4 seconds mite make it worth picking up.
Hard to Catch: its not terrible. i do like change to it.

Grand master
Endless Stamina: again should be merge in to Feline grace an given a new grand master. if i was to pick one maybe something along the lines of 2 second of Stability on evading attack with 5 second CD. Or just something that prolong thief ability to stay in combat.
Assassin’s Reward: it simply just does not heal enough be better if they added the +1 Initiative every 10 seconds in it or buff the healing even just healing power scaling mite make it a lot better.
Upper hand :: i think it be better if it restore x initiative of single dodge use before it go on CD allowing thief get max value from the skill they eva. such as thief dodges rapid fire it would give them 6ish Initiative over just the 1, before it go on CD.
Don’t Stomp : i like this trait i think one of main way thief dies is to immobilize so it good design pick up for thief.

My overview on thief is :
dmg is in a good place
Con removal is not terrible it very easy to get overwhelm
there still quite fast. can get around map no problem
Hp / tankyness / healing is alright not amazing

i rate thief out of 10 not counting Acrobatic line 8/10 on how much i enjoy the change.

evilapprentice.6379:

1. The combination of lines was well done, IMO. It feels like traits are in the line they belong, and weaker traits were rolled into more powerful ones to create traits actually worth taking…for the most part at least. There are some real stinkers, but that’s a separate discussion.

2. I -love- the CS line, but there’s some conditions to that statement. No quarter is basically perfect – it’s unique, it gives the thief incentive to stay in combat, and it’s powerful as a GM trait should be. The minors are good, and the adept line has some choices, but the master line is an absolute joke – nothing competes with Practiced tolerance, that should be fixed. I also feel like part of CS’s strength is how underpowered SA is.
When everyone saw SA, they lost their minds, but they didn’t take into account how miniscule the healing of Shadow Rejuv is considering the new damage capacity across the board, the opportunity cost of sitting in stealth, and how useless Shadow’s embrace is if it doesn’t cleanse a condition on entering stealth. CS is basically a default because it adds MUCH more damage than SA adds sustain – if the 2 were more even, CS would still be good, but less attractive.

3. S/D is dead, there’s no doubt to that, even if your personal experience was positive. Acro is a joke in its current state. Ranger and Engineer get better dodge traits, which is strange considering those professions have actual access to protection and stability, blocks, immunity type skills, better condi cleanse, and better sustain across the board. The old S/D dodged like crazy, but because it needed to – no iteration of the thief class has ever had passive sustain or defenses. It’s always been active, and the current acro is basically worthless – 1 mistake means your death. Vigor uptime isn’t even viable without BT from trickery which locks you in two traitlines if you want to go S/D, and it doesn’t come anywhere close to pre-patch dodge capacity, and damage has gone through the roof! Less dodges for more damage doesn’t work.

4. I haven’t bothered with a condition spec. Burning is roughly triple the damage of any other condition, and thief has zero access to it. Their access to any condition that isn’t bleed is middling at best, and without consistent access to a variety of damaging conditions to beat all the cleanses flying around, it just doesn’t feel worth it. Pressure striking is in a weird place, since it looks like a great trait on paper, but has almost no practical use – what thief condi spec has access to interrupts? A condi spec wants bewildering ambush over SoH, and P/D is the only functioning condi spec thieves have (which means no interrupts from Sword MH or Pistol OH). The huge damage nerf to potent poisons was also disappointing – 10% increased damage and 33% increased duration doesn’t compete with improvisation in any spec or format.

5. Executioner, hands down. Improv isn’t a bad trait, it’s just that with damage the way it is currently, thieves don’t have the luxury of taking a trait that doesn’t either make them hit harder or 100% guarantees better survivability. If spec diversity ever opened up to allow a thief that wasn’t 100% focused on downing opponents, Improv might have a spot, but currently executioner is essentially a requirement for being effective.

6. No, BV always wins. Thieves only viable role is still that of the highly mobile roamer, and nothing DS or TG offers makes up for their CD’s in comparison to BV.

Thanks for posting this, I hope my input matters.

This really couldn’t have been said any better so I’ll just try to elaborate on some of the points evil touched on.

1. Nothing to add
2. Really what the critical strike line is lacking now is utility, we only really get raw damage from this line now. I preferred critical haste and the old practiced tolerance to the new adept and major traits.
3. Nothing to add I wrote a pretty comprehensive post on the subject should you want to check it out here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thieves-say-goodbye-to-Sword-Dagger/page/2#post5221925

4. Nothing to add
5. Not much to add, only that improv is more likely to be seen in WvW on shadow arts dueling builds and would have seen use with acrobatics if feline grace and fluid strikes hadn’t been nerfed / deleted.
6. Daggerstorm and Thieves guild still have a niche, but as far as competitive play is concerned basilisk venom is far superior, especially with residual venoms being rolled into baseline.

1. The combination of lines was well done, IMO. It feels like traits are in the line they belong, and weaker traits were rolled into more powerful ones to create traits actually worth taking…for the most part at least. There are some real stinkers, but that’s a separate discussion.

2. I -love- the CS line, but there’s some conditions to that statement. No quarter is basically perfect – it’s unique, it gives the thief incentive to stay in combat, and it’s powerful as a GM trait should be. The minors are good, and the adept line has some choices, but the master line is an absolute joke – nothing competes with Practiced tolerance, that should be fixed. I also feel like part of CS’s strength is how underpowered SA is.
When everyone saw SA, they lost their minds, but they didn’t take into account how miniscule the healing of Shadow Rejuv is considering the new damage capacity across the board, the opportunity cost of sitting in stealth, and how useless Shadow’s embrace is if it doesn’t cleanse a condition on entering stealth. CS is basically a default because it adds MUCH more damage than SA adds sustain – if the 2 were more even, CS would still be good, but less attractive.

3. S/D is dead, there’s no doubt to that, even if your personal experience was positive. Acro is a joke in its current state. Ranger and Engineer get better dodge traits, which is strange considering those professions have actual access to protection and stability, blocks, immunity type skills, better condi cleanse, and better sustain across the board. The old S/D dodged like crazy, but because it needed to – no iteration of the thief class has ever had passive sustain or defenses. It’s always been active, and the current acro is basically worthless – 1 mistake means your death. Vigor uptime isn’t even viable without BT from trickery which locks you in two traitlines if you want to go S/D, and it doesn’t come anywhere close to pre-patch dodge capacity, and damage has gone through the roof! Less dodges for more damage doesn’t work.

4. I haven’t bothered with a condition spec. Burning is roughly triple the damage of any other condition, and thief has zero access to it. Their access to any condition that isn’t bleed is middling at best, and without consistent access to a variety of damaging conditions to beat all the cleanses flying around, it just doesn’t feel worth it. Pressure striking is in a weird place, since it looks like a great trait on paper, but has almost no practical use – what thief condi spec has access to interrupts? A condi spec wants bewildering ambush over SoH, and P/D is the only functioning condi spec thieves have (which means no interrupts from Sword MH or Pistol OH). The huge damage nerf to potent poisons was also disappointing – 10% increased damage and 33% increased duration doesn’t compete with improvisation in any spec or format.

5. Executioner, hands down. Improv isn’t a bad trait, it’s just that with damage the way it is currently, thieves don’t have the luxury of taking a trait that doesn’t either make them hit harder or 100% guarantees better survivability. If spec diversity ever opened up to allow a thief that wasn’t 100% focused on downing opponents, Improv might have a spot, but currently executioner is essentially a requirement for being effective.

6. No, BV always wins. Thieves only viable role is still that of the highly mobile roamer, and nothing DS or TG offers makes up for their CD’s in comparison to BV.

Thanks for posting this, I hope my input matters.

+1^

Really well put, thanks

The Gates Assassin.9827:

… (snipped for length) …

1.) It’s a blessing and a curse. Some rather unpopular/weaker variants like D/D signet stab got buffed into potential viability (which I’m happy about), but for the most part, this only really helped the strongest builds stay the strongest ones and maintain effectiveness in relation to the rest of the classes. P/P got turned into a semi-condi build, but honestly, torment is way too weak with what burning is like at the moment to be worthwhile, and P/P lacks good control condition options aside from spamming 5 to blind, in which case it’s not doing any damage.

2.) Frankly, I don’t mind a lot of what happened to crit strikes. Some of the new traits are pretty interesting. My big gripe with the changes, however, was the change to Practiced Tolerance. That extra vitality is really needed at this point, especially since damage is up so much, and condi potency is absolutely crazy now. While not so much an issue in sPvP with Marauder being a very good amulet choice for CS builds, this was a hugely negative WvW change, especially with the removal of Applied Fortitude happening soon; the removal of AF and Practiced Tolerance will cut thief health pools down by around 40%, which is huge.

3.) S/D isn’t “dead.” The kit on the weapon set is still good. The problem is that acrobatics is just straight awful and doesn’t really support evasive play, and Flanking strike forces its way into Larcenous on connection, creating scenarios where a double dodge is really necessary but not possible from the terrible vigor changes/effective removal of Feline Grace, so actually getting those evades off is way more difficult to do than it should be. I agree with most of the other posters that the changes to Guarded Initiation were really bad in that it should apply resistance – nothing about Acrobatics really feels defensive or impactful – a lot of the gains are just simply worse alternatives to what other lines offer. I feel like P/D power builds running DA/SA/Trickery are better evasive builds by spamming 3 than most S/D builds. There really just aren’t enough evades or any damage to compensate.

4.) Dagger Training is a cool concept, and while on paper, better than Mug for DPS on a D/D build, is a bit weak. Potent Poison is just too weak, especially with the nerfs to SB4 and already low duration on Dagger Training. Pressure striking is cool, and makes for what probably could have been a viable P/P build before the changes, but feels again a little too weak, and rewards spamming 4 on P/P rather than creating more engaging play. I think conceptually there are some good ideas to try and spread conditions to other sets beyond P/D, but those options feel a little bit weak right now, especially with everyone and their mother running mass cleanses due to the obvious overpoweredness of the burning condition.

5.) Seeing as I play a burst build, Executioner. If all of the stolen bundles were maybe as good as those from guard/ranger/mes, it might be a consideration, but when fighting an engi/ele/war, sometimes the trait feels like a liability, especially against their respective classes (gunk works reasonably against engineers, but not as well as say, CC or boons). I thought the initial description of incoming thief changes was that all stolen bundles were going to be changed, and hoped for some improvements on these.

6.) Dagger Storm is still going to be situational. It’s weak on power builds except maybe against pve zergs of trash mobs/groups of ranged enemies, and only provides useful utility against a few classes or builds, while maintaining a fairly long cooldown, and can be suicide if against say, a mesmer unloading tons of confusion on you. Thieves guild is just terrible and always will be unless used by some guy with a DPS venom build in a duel where his allied players won’t be there to get shared venoms (so basically, never). AI companions are pretty much always bad and for the most part not well-received (see ranger) by players outside of open-world PvE. This is especially apparent when it’s competing for an elite skill slot, and is further competing against what I believe is one of the best elites in the game: BV (which is obviously one of the most potent aspects of venom builds which competes for this skill slot). Even on a 60s base cooldown and made into a regular utility skill, I don’t see this getting played much. AI is too finnicky and in most cases just flat-out useless to warrant much use anywhere. The thief being as squishy as it is, and so setup-oriented for damage makes BV an obvious if not necessary choice to make a lot of builds functional or comparably functional to the rest of the classes.

evilapprentice.6379:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?
2. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?
3. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?
4. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?
5. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?
6. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

1. The combination of lines was well done, IMO. It feels like traits are in the line they belong, and weaker traits were rolled into more powerful ones to create traits actually worth taking…for the most part at least. There are some real stinkers, but that’s a separate discussion.

2. I -love- the CS line, but there’s some conditions to that statement. No quarter is basically perfect – it’s unique, it gives the thief incentive to stay in combat, and it’s powerful as a GM trait should be. The minors are good, and the adept line has some choices, but the master line is an absolute joke – nothing competes with Practiced tolerance, that should be fixed. I also feel like part of CS’s strength is how underpowered SA is.
When everyone saw SA, they lost their minds, but they didn’t take into account how miniscule the healing of Shadow Rejuv is considering the new damage capacity across the board, the opportunity cost of sitting in stealth, and how useless Shadow’s embrace is if it doesn’t cleanse a condition on entering stealth. CS is basically a default because it adds MUCH more damage than SA adds sustain – if the 2 were more even, CS would still be good, but less attractive.

3. S/D is dead, there’s no doubt to that, even if your personal experience was positive. Acro is a joke in its current state. Ranger and Engineer get better dodge traits, which is strange considering those professions have actual access to protection and stability, blocks, immunity type skills, better condi cleanse, and better sustain across the board. The old S/D dodged like crazy, but because it needed to – no iteration of the thief class has ever had passive sustain or defenses. It’s always been active, and the current acro is basically worthless – 1 mistake means your death. Vigor uptime isn’t even viable without BT from trickery which locks you in two traitlines if you want to go S/D, and it doesn’t come anywhere close to pre-patch dodge capacity, and damage has gone through the roof! Less dodges for more damage doesn’t work.

4. I haven’t bothered with a condition spec. Burning is roughly triple the damage of any other condition, and thief has zero access to it. Their access to any condition that isn’t bleed is middling at best, and without consistent access to a variety of damaging conditions to beat all the cleanses flying around, it just doesn’t feel worth it. Pressure striking is in a weird place, since it looks like a great trait on paper, but has almost no practical use – what thief condi spec has access to interrupts? A condi spec wants bewildering ambush over SoH, and P/D is the only functioning condi spec thieves have (which means no interrupts from Sword MH or Pistol OH). The huge damage nerf to potent poisons was also disappointing – 10% increased damage and 33% increased duration doesn’t compete with improvisation in any spec or format.

5. Executioner, hands down. Improv isn’t a bad trait, it’s just that with damage the way it is currently, thieves don’t have the luxury of taking a trait that doesn’t either make them hit harder or 100% guarantees better survivability. If spec diversity ever opened up to allow a thief that wasn’t 100% focused on downing opponents, Improv might have a spot, but currently executioner is essentially a requirement for being effective.

6. No, BV always wins. Thieves only viable role is still that of the highly mobile roamer, and nothing DS or TG offers makes up for their CD’s in comparison to BV.

Thanks for posting this, I hope my input matters.

+1 Well said

1. Let’s not go overboard – what got rolled together is the movement of Executioner to Deadly Arts and a reshuffle that allows you to run it alongside Panic Strike. It has made Deadly Arts a very, very good PvP line with both effective damage multipliers with consistent but contestable conditions and strong utility traits. Honestly, the most exciting thing about it is that when then expansion comes I’ll be able to take the elite specialization, sight unseen, as I give up nothing important between Deadly Arts and Trickery.

2. I like the design of the Critical Strikes tree quite a bit. It is exceptionally good in PvE, where it is extremely rewarding to players operating at peak efficiency – above 90% health, constantly attacking, glassy gear. The damage from the line is exceptional in those circumstances, between 100% uptime fury and huge critical damage. I also like that it is not particularly attractive in PvP – because consistent, huge damage multipliers without counterplay do not make for a fun game. I think this is quite a good design job and whoever is responsible for it should be commended.

3. Acrobatics sucks. The one saving grace it has is that Shadow Arts got some very smart nerfs to keep it from being oppressive, and Critical Strikes is underwhelming in PvP as well – so it isn’t like it has stellar competition. It is basically being carried by Hard to Catch, which is just fantastic, and to a lesser degree by Don’t Stop, as being immune to immobilize is a life saver. Pain Response is acceptable filler in an otherwise strong line, if unspectacular; it’s not like its easy to notice its effect but mathematically it does some work on the margin. Every other trait in Acrobatics has no noticeable effect in either theory or practice.

4. Thief has no access to burning and its already marginal ability to hold a point just got gutted. It’s not worth the time to think about.

5. Executioner 99% of the time. I like Improvisation in principle but it gives you nothing but garbage against Eles and Engineers, which are still some of your most important targets. It’s not particularly thrilling against Necros either, as the fear skull has such a long telegraph that it is inevitably dodged, or you are forced to cancel from people beating on you while you channel it. I care about it against shoutbow Warriors (where it is excellent; against DPS Warriors the long channel just kills you) and Mesmers (zzz), and to a lesser extent in the mirror (stealth-off) and against Guardians (outstanding when you can land it, though windows to land two inside of 20 seconds are limited). Against a team without Eles, Engineers, or Necros I’d consider swapping to Improvisation, but against those classes I’m going to stick with Executioner so I can do a better job of dropping them 100% of the time.

6. I’ll run Dagger Storm in WvW for the stability and strength during big pushes and pulls, and I’ll run Thieves’ Guild in PvE to add more DPS against a champion. The ability to trait to reduce their cooldowns does not affect my decision to run either at all.

Still playing sword dagger – 6/0/0/6/6 mug – revealed training – executioner. pain response – hard to catch – not decided on GM as they are all pretty bad. and the usual trickery line.

Are most people railing against acro doing so after playing it?

I’ve been playing acro lately and while the feline grace nerf is annoying, all things considered Hard to Catch and Don’t Stop are really nice to have in the acro tree. I feel their utility is being far underestimated.

Asudementio.8526:

Are most people railing against acro doing so after playing it?

I’ve been playing acro lately and while the feline grace nerf is annoying, all things considered Hard to Catch and Don’t Stop are really nice to have in the acro tree. I feel their utility is being far underestimated.

Those are very good traits . The issue is there little to no reason to choose the others. Its pretty one dimensional and with the Vigor nerf coupled with boon duration and vitality gone form the traitline there little other reasons to take that line.

Just going to weigh in my thoughts on thief condi builds now. The damage they put out actually feels lower than last patch due to changes. Even though we can stack poison now it is indeed underwhelming compared to other condi classes.

Burning, by itself, makes our efforts at stacking condis feel very mediocre. I used to love playing condi thief, it’s all I played, but now I’ve fallen in line with playing burst because it is simply rewarded far more than condi thief setups.

I’ve tried running DA / SA / Trickery which are ideal lines for condi thief based on Leeching Venoms and having the extra attrition from SA needed to perform with a condi build.

Dagger Training is very underwhelming and so is Potent Poisons. Mug is simply much stronger than Dagger Training ever will be and if you trait into Bewildering Ambush you are giving up a 20 second CD steal that deals damage while healing you, rips boons AND interrupts your target which makes for clutch heals or heal interrupts / added spike damage.

I feel burst thieves are actually in a good spot with proper setups, however condi is definitely under performing. I know this because I spent the first three days testing and testing and testing many condi variants until finally gave in and started working on a burst play style and have found one that feels very effective pretty quickly. Damage is fairly high and has some team utility as well, also feels great from being a thief who loves to rezbot people as much as possible.

Deadly Arts is good but has useless traits. Dagger Training and Potent Poisons do not even come close to rivaling other traits in the same tier. Trapper’s Respite has some potential and makes Deadly Trapper more worth taking over panic strike and revealed training. Potent Poisons simply pales in comparison to either Improvisation or Executioner simply due to the fact that Improvisation could reset venoms and when combined with Leeching Venom (or even further, venomous aura) the synergy / usefulness of Potent Poisons simply becomes nothing more than a lackluster filler trait.

Same can honestly be said of Dagger Training, there is really no reason to take it over mug or even Trapper’s Respite. The duration on poison is far too short and does not even mesh well with a GM trait in the same line. Both traits need buffs in order to even open up any level of build diversity / viability with it.

I mentioned it before in another thread but if PP was at 50% duration and DT started at 3 seconds baseline, PP would push DT up to 4.5 seconds base, which makes taking a venom sigil suddenly worth it and more appealing, then a poison runeset on top of that pushes it to 6 seconds. Even with changes like that, the condi damage compared to burning would still be quite a bit less, but could definitely open up some options for thief.

I’m not sure what to say / suggest for P/D, but I suppose they could run P/D and D/D with that setup combined with venoms / leeching venoms / venomous aura (or Shadow’s Rejuvination for solo play) and have potential for some damage that might actually compare to other burst setups that are out there.

Shortbow #4 needs a buff as well. It already was an underwhelming weapon set and with these changes to poison stacking plus another duration nerf just hurts condi thief options even more. Even with suggested changes to Potent Poisons, SB #4 could stand to sit at 4 seconds poison duration per pulse because even with 100% poison duration increase from 4 seconds, this makes it to where all four pulses of poison nets the same duration of poison uptime we had last patch without any duration increase.

Pressure Striking is way too hard to utilize. No boon rip & vigor from bountiful theft not only hurts the reliability of steal, it also hurts team effectiveness as well. Same with taking Bewildering Ambush over Sleight of Hand. I don’t really have a complaint with Bewildering Ambush, but the other overall added up condis / effort to try to make it work simply does not perform, not in pvp.

Also Acro got nerfed a bit too hard. Endless Stamina could use either a buff to vigor effectiveness or have a small damage bonus rolled in (maybe both), Feline Grace could probably grant more Vigor on dodge and things like Guarded Initiation are literally trash-tier worthless filler traits.

Kind of like Sundering Strikes in CS, there’s no point to take that over Practiced Tolerance … ever. It went from Adept tier in DA to Master tier in CS with no buff while being stood next to vastly superior traits. It’s what I honestly call a garbage filler trait because Anet ran out of ideas.

Still … burst teef is alright and can use both SA or CS effectively. Will not say the same for condi teef.

Jesiah.2457:

Kind of like Sundering Strikes in CS, there’s no point to take that over Practiced Tolerance … ever.

In PvE Sundering Strikes is generally a better trait than Practiced Tolerance.

Practiced Tolerance will raise the DPS of a full berserker thief by about 5%. After a relatively short ramp-up time, Sundering Strikes will raise the DPS of everyone hitting the same target by 3-4%.

You run Practiced Tolerance in 3 situations:

- You are doing solo content where no one else benefits from the vulnerability
- Your target dies in less than 5 seconds, or you otherwise cannot stick to it (PvP)
- Your target already has 25 stacks of vulnerability from other players

Otherwise, you should be running Sundering Strikes.

Ensign.2189:

Jesiah.2457:

Kind of like Sundering Strikes in CS, there’s no point to take that over Practiced Tolerance … ever.

In PvE Sundering Strikes is generally a better trait than Practiced Tolerance.

Practiced Tolerance will raise the DPS of a full berserker thief by about 5%. After a relatively short ramp-up time, Sundering Strikes will raise the DPS of everyone hitting the same target by 3-4%.

You run Practiced Tolerance in 3 situations:

- You are doing solo content where no one else benefits from the vulnerability
- Your target dies in less than 5 seconds, or you otherwise cannot stick to it (PvP)
- Your target already has 25 stacks of vulnerability from other players

Otherwise, you should be running Sundering Strikes.

I agree. The CS line is one of the best balanced lines there is and as others have mentioned deserves kudos for its design. Every one of the traits in each spot can and will be used depending on circumstances. Sundering strikes is that much needed group utility.

My P/P thief can easily load 10 of these stacks on his own meaning all my teams hits are hitting 10 percent harder and this now includes conditions which is a huge boost to the impact of vulnerability.

Ensign.2189:

Jesiah.2457:

Kind of like Sundering Strikes in CS, there’s no point to take that over Practiced Tolerance … ever.

In PvE Sundering Strikes is generally a better trait than Practiced Tolerance.

Practiced Tolerance will raise the DPS of a full berserker thief by about 5%. After a relatively short ramp-up time, Sundering Strikes will raise the DPS of everyone hitting the same target by 3-4%.

You run Practiced Tolerance in 3 situations:

- You are doing solo content where no one else benefits from the vulnerability
- Your target dies in less than 5 seconds, or you otherwise cannot stick to it (PvP)
- Your target already has 25 stacks of vulnerability from other players

Otherwise, you should be running Sundering Strikes.

Let me re-itterate then, Sundering Strikes is completely worthless in PvP. I guess if PvE is your thing and that works for your team, great, at least Anet did that right then. I’m completely PvP focused, and that’s it. My thoughts will be PvP / WvW biased.

Jesiah.2457:

Ensign.2189:

Jesiah.2457:

Kind of like Sundering Strikes in CS, there’s no point to take that over Practiced Tolerance … ever.

In PvE Sundering Strikes is generally a better trait than Practiced Tolerance.

Practiced Tolerance will raise the DPS of a full berserker thief by about 5%. After a relatively short ramp-up time, Sundering Strikes will raise the DPS of everyone hitting the same target by 3-4%.

You run Practiced Tolerance in 3 situations:

- You are doing solo content where no one else benefits from the vulnerability
- Your target dies in less than 5 seconds, or you otherwise cannot stick to it (PvP)
- Your target already has 25 stacks of vulnerability from other players

Otherwise, you should be running Sundering Strikes.

Let me re-itterate then, Sundering Strikes is completely worthless in PvP. I guess if PvE is your thing and that works for your team, great, at least Anet did that right then. I’m completely PvP focused, and that’s it. My thoughts will be PvP / WvW biased.

Oh it works in WvW. I do not PVp but would expect less utility there as the scale of the battles is smaller. I have not tried a a d/d build using CS line so am not sure how effective it would be there but as with any trait that is not generic to all weaponsets there will never be the same amount of usage on any given trait.

The best example of course would be MUG which could be used in any build and be very good. It does not mean the other two “garbage” (Although I would like to see a slight tweak somewhere in dagger training). It just means they best suited for a specific build.

P/P thief is broken!!!! I’m just kittening curious when is someone from Anet going to answer our cries for help? You people don’t even have the decency to reply to one of the most viewed post on the thief forums. People are getting fed up with this attitude of yours Anet. Well done

Basic thoughts, mostly echoing what others have said here:

• Vigor in general seems underpowered, and I miss the old Feline Grace a lot.
• Ricochet – please bring it back. PLEASE. It was the most fun of all the traits, especially for P/P which I play exclusively on my thief.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello thieves! Take some time from instagibing me and talk about the new specializations! Either answer my questions directly or simply post about what you feel is important for the devs to know about the new changes.

Questions:

1. A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this?

Other classes are allowed to do similar things – seems reasonable enough.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why?

I disagree. The line provides useful traits; I prefer the new Practiced Tolerance since the creation of Marauder’s Amulet. No Quarter is a strong trait and a good replacement for Executioner. The only somewhat weak traits are in the Adept slot.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line?

S/D is fine, however Acro is a weak line. The nerf to vigor in addition to Feline Grace hurt the trait line too much, despite having some strong traits (Swindler’s, Hard to Catch, Don’t Stop). Don’t Stop is a redundant trait since thief doesn’t worry much about chill/cripple and immobilize can be cleared with Withdraw, Shadowstep, Sword 2, and Signet of Agility.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go?

In competitive play condi thief will not work – other classes do it better. You don’t have the same condition spread or condition damage.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you?

Improvisation.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited?

No.

I just wanted to add something here. A lot of people seem to be saying that the other elites simply aren’t worth taking, and I have to agree for the most part. I don’t think simply lowering CDs would really change their frequency of use either. I wanted to propose some functionality changes, especially since the devs finally got around to changing mortar on engi. Thematically they should still fit as a Trick and Deception.

Daggerstorm: This is an alright skill right now, but really is only useful against ranged foes. It gives stability which is nice, but it’s already reflecting projectiles, and using it in close combat is dubious. I think the CD should be lowered to 75 seconds and the duration shortened to 4 seconds. As a trade off, you no longer just spin around throwing daggers wildly, but you reflect all projectiles and evade all close combat attacks. Each evaded attack deals minor damage back to the attacker and 1 bleed and each reflected projectile also gives 1 bleed. You should still be able to attack during this as normal.

Thieves Guild: A meh skill. I think it should be a transformation instead (only 10 seconds). The transformation should still use initiative and be called Shadow Form. There is no boost to any stats. The idea is to be something that is comparable to Moa in that it disables a person in a fight (as long as you are aggressive in your transform). 120 second CD. 0.25 cast

Gain 12 initiative upon transform.

Auto Attack (Blinding Assault) : Cleaves 3 targets, blinds, range 130. 1.0 multipler

Stealth Attack(Shattering Assault): Steal up to 5 boons from your target (including their full durations), 1.0 multiplier, range 130

2 (Meld with Shadows, 3 Initiative): Evade Attacks (0.75 seconds). Cleaves 3 targets. Range 130 (1.5 multiplier if an attack is evaded)

3 (Shadow Prison, 4 initiative): Shadowstep to your target chill them for 4 seconds. White Damage. Range 900. Instant cast

4 (Shroud of Silence, 5 Initiative): Daze your target for 4 seconds. Range 130, 0.5 second cast

5 (Fade, 7 initiative): Gain Stealth (6 seconds), 0.5 seconds cast

Anyway, daggerstorm and TG are just underwhelming. I’d like them to be viable choices.

A lot of thief builds got rolled into one (Panic Strike + Exe + Shadow Arts + Venom + Trickery Thief is possible!). How do you like the fact that thieves can do this? Every class has some funky builds now.

I’ve heard some people say they don’t like the critical strike line. Do you agree and why? I like the CS line, it’s a dmg trait line and it does exactly that, boosts my dmg really nicely.

I’ve also heard some people say that S/D is dead and that acrobatics sucks. I tried out a build with Don’t Stop and Hard To Catch and had trouble dying but still got some kills! How do you feel about S/D and Acrobatics? Have you tried the line? I think this opinion comes from the over the top dmg everyone is dishing out now. If you get stabbed for 15k, having extra dodges won’t rez you up. If I consider acro line alone, it’s really nice trait line that allows for some nice thief gameplay. But I can see why currently it’s better to trait for dmg than defence.

Thief got some new condi traits. Have you tried making a condi build and how did it go? I don’t care about playing condi.

Improvisation vs Executioner. Which wins for you? Exe

Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild got turned into a trick and a deception. Are you taking them now that they can be traited? I still pick elite based on the situation, not what skill types they are.

I was quite negative about new SA/Acro/condi removal but over the weekend I tested some builds and that was enough for me to change the view on this.

Change to shadow embrace is actually quite good when combined with acro traits, SA/Ac/Trix build is very condi resistant and dishes out decent dmg when in zerker. Although, I think shadow embrace still should remove condi on the 1s of stealth.

What I found really hard to deal with was Taunt, while I haven’t come across it that often, the moment it was used, I was dead. I spent quite some time duelling one really good ranger with Taunt on F2, the effect seems to ignore everything and for a squishy class that relies on active defense, Taunt is very punishing.

My main problem with the new traits is that they reduce build diversity and seem tailored to specific builds.

Shadow Arts
The changes to Shadow’s Rejuvenation and Shadow’s Embrace only work for thieves who spend at least 3 seconds in stealth. They don’t work at all for more aggressive play styles.

Shadow’s Embrace – Switch to remove one condition on entering stealth. No more periodic condition removal (assuming a nerf is actually needed).
Shadow’s Rejuvenation – Same here, except that you gain one initiative on entering stealth.

Acrobatics
This trait line seems built specifically for S/D meta and it won’t provide much benefit to other builds. The traits are way to dependent on Vigor which really limits your build options.

Expedious Dodger – Increase the Swiftness duration.
Fleet Shadow – Replace this trait with Ricochet
Hard to Catch – Remove endurance gain (I don’t like how random this is and would rather get endurance from other sources)
Endless Stamina – Remove this trait to reduce the Vigor dependency.
Feline Grace – Successfully evading an attack should provide a fixed amount of endurance. This needs to have a more significant impact on the number of dodges available.