Guild Wars 2

With the recent thief buffs, a multitude of relatively highly skilled players now playing thief again, and these players continually being with matched with me, I’m getting more thief vs thief than I ever have before. Compared to the previous patches in 2015 I mostly learned this game during, the new changes to lead attacks have made this match-up frustratingly simple because of how much easier it has become to take someone from full hp to zero from stealth.

I usually play D/P with bound while most of the other thieves who are comparable and currently more skilled than me generally play D/P with dash. This isn’t new. It’s always been fun to attempt to outplay and out-contribute a more mobile player with greater bursts and stealth access. Now, however, once a thief player learns to consistently time their steal between evade frames and burst me whenever I become visible (even if I’m just using a bound through pistol #5), they can kill me with ease whenever my shadowstep is down. Similarly, if I correctly anticipate where a dash thief is going to rotate toward, I can stack stealth before they arrive and kill them almost instantly everytime they don’t immediately shadowstep away.

The problem here, in my opinion, is the changes to lead attacks have made the thief vs thief match-up less about outplaying another thief 2-4 times in a fight to secure a kill and made it even more about outplaying someone only once. The new lead attacks hasn’t made this match-up less skillful but it does seem to have biased it toward being a less interesting and dynamic match-up. Among other problems, this is a huge reason why our base HP should be increased. Has this been anyone else’s general experience after the changes?

Tl;dr version:

More thief vs thief fights end by steal + backstabbing someone after camping stealth now and it’s a less interesting way to both kill and die to other thieves than previous patches. This can addressed, as well as addressing other deficiencies with our class, by increasing thief base hp from “light” (~11k hp at level 80 with no +vitality) to “medium” (~15k hp at level 80 with no +vitality).

Dueling a thief when he or she is using dash while you use bound, means you the advantage. Simply out stealth them. Use BP, dodge 3 times + 1 HS, then cast BP again and use HS on it. You will out stealth them. Additionally, during the fight you have the ability to go into stealth more frequently and longer than them. And don’t be so predictable when in stealth, make sure to always wait a bit while they waste dodges or inis trying to mitigate your stealth burst.

Snowywonders.1378:

Dueling a thief when he or she is using dash while you use bound, means you the advantage. Simply out stealth them. Use BP, dodge 3 times + 1 HS, then cast BP again and use HS on it. You will out stealth them. Additionally, during the fight you have the ability to go into stealth more frequently and longer than them. And don’t be so predictable when in stealth, make sure to always wait a bit while they waste dodges or inis trying to mitigate your stealth burst.

I’m afraid it isn’t that simple when using bound against dash thieves of a higher skill level. Dash limits the ability to sustain stealth, yes, but what dash can allow is for a thief to use blinding powder for one medium or longer duration stack of stealth and use the mobility of dash to more aggressively pursue the other thief’s smoke field. If they do this and fail to backstab or make me reveal myself from hitting them with HS or bound, it’s as you say and I will likely win the fight from getting an opener from stealth on them. It’s generally better for the dash thief to run to another node at this point. With bound, I have advantages, yes, just as dash has some of its own. If this were a request for an introduction to how to manage this match-up, then, man, I would have worded it as just that!

However, this is not the problem I’m asking other thieves about. What I’m wondering is if you’re having more or less fun with how thief vs thief has changed with the lead attacks alteration. For me so far, it’s been less.

Please remember that lead attacks went from 15% damage boost when full ini (so closer to 10% for a good thief that keeps a reserve) to now boosting by 15% once the player has used a bunch, but will now have less ini to actually use skills. It’s not this godly buff some are making it out to be. Thief fights have always been quick, and volatile. If you don’t like it play a different build or class.

Can someone explain to me why every teef uses lead attacks now? Teeves seem a lot stronger (not a bad thing)

mrauls.6519:

Can someone explain to me why every teef uses lead attacks now? Teeves seem a lot stronger (not a bad thing)

Seems you never played thief.
It because lead attack is belongs to trickery as minor traits.
and trickery is too much essential for thief, all thief has no choice for other trait lines.

mrauls.6519:

Can someone explain to me why every teef uses lead attacks now? Teeves seem a lot stronger (not a bad thing)

Lead attacks is a free trait in a trailing already made mandatory in sPvP, it’s not a huge buff but it does make Thieves more online with every other ES.allowing thieves to sustain damage a little better.

You would see less of it if Anet would either balance thief Ini pool around 12 ini or making preparedness baseline.

rennlc.7346:

I’m afraid it isn’t that simple when using bound against dash thieves of a higher skill level. Dash limits the ability to sustain stealth, yes, but what dash can allow is for a thief to use blinding powder for one medium or longer duration stack of stealth and use the mobility of dash to more aggressively pursue the other thief’s smoke field. If they do this and fail to backstab or make me reveal myself from hitting them with HS or bound, it’s as you say and I will likely win the fight from getting an opener from stealth on them.

snip

A thief of a higher skill level should win…that’s how its supposed to be.

Anyways, it seems that you need to boost your defenses. Outstealth and dodge at the right times, ez as pie to get the advantage. After your opponent blows backstab+steal combo, that’s your chance.

The fact that you’re revealing yourself by hitting the other player with your skills while trying to stealth tells me more about your situation. I don’t mean this offensively, but I would just say you need more practice fighting thieves.

alchemyst.2165:

rennlc.7346:

I’m afraid it isn’t that simple when using bound against dash thieves of a higher skill level. Dash limits the ability to sustain stealth, yes, but what dash can allow is for a thief to use blinding powder for one medium or longer duration stack of stealth and use the mobility of dash to more aggressively pursue the other thief’s smoke field. If they do this and fail to backstab or make me reveal myself from hitting them with HS or bound, it’s as you say and I will likely win the fight from getting an opener from stealth on them.

snip

A thief of a higher skill level should win…that’s how its supposed to be.

Anyways, it seems that you need to boost your defenses. Outstealth and dodge at the right times, ez as pie to get the advantage. After your opponent blows backstab+steal combo, that’s your chance.

The fact that you’re revealing yourself by hitting the other player with your skills while trying to stealth tells me more about your situation. I don’t mean this offensively, but I would just say you need more practice fighting thieves.

Higher level compared to most thieves most of the time and not just me. The current setup actually allows me to more effectively fight thieves who are considerably more experienced than me because I can nearly one shot them after camping stealth. My issue is not with how playable the current patch is in regard to fighting other thieves but with how enjoyable it is to play against other thieves compared to previous patches. I’m asking you and other thief players if you like how thief vs thief is currently more than how it’s been in various patches in the past.

rennlc.7346:

alchemyst.2165:

rennlc.7346:

I’m afraid it isn’t that simple when using bound against dash thieves of a higher skill level. Dash limits the ability to sustain stealth, yes, but what dash can allow is for a thief to use blinding powder for one medium or longer duration stack of stealth and use the mobility of dash to more aggressively pursue the other thief’s smoke field. If they do this and fail to backstab or make me reveal myself from hitting them with HS or bound, it’s as you say and I will likely win the fight from getting an opener from stealth on them.

snip

A thief of a higher skill level should win…that’s how its supposed to be.

Anyways, it seems that you need to boost your defenses. Outstealth and dodge at the right times, ez as pie to get the advantage. After your opponent blows backstab+steal combo, that’s your chance.

The fact that you’re revealing yourself by hitting the other player with your skills while trying to stealth tells me more about your situation. I don’t mean this offensively, but I would just say you need more practice fighting thieves.

Higher level compared to most thieves most of the time and not just me. The current setup actually allows me to more effectively fight thieves who are considerably more experienced than me because I can nearly one shot them after camping stealth. My issue is not with how playable the current patch is in regard to fighting other thieves but with how enjoyable it is to play against other thieves compared to previous patches. I’m asking you and other thief players if you like how thief vs thief is currently more than how it’s been in various patches in the past.

I am still adapting. I have an s/d build that relies on crit from dodges and sigils thus giving high armor and vitality. This thief is doing very well under the current system and is much more fun.

On the other hand a glass cannon staff build I have is having to deal with that stacked up LA. What they may have to do is not allow those stacks to build while out of combat.

To answer OP’s question, it’s more fun imo.

Yeah I don’t like the new Lead Attacks. There was some eloquence to maintaining your initiative to obtain the buff, whereas now you just get it by doing what you were going to do anyway. ‘Just attack to do more damage’ is such an uninteresting buff. I’m really not a fan of what Thief is becoming.

I got 11258 backstabbed in WvW and instant downed before I could even see a Thief on my screen. XD It’s a rough life being a melee class with such little HP, even with vitality.

Doggie.3184:

I got 11258 backstabbed in WvW and instant downed before I could even see a Thief on my screen. XD It’s a rough life being a melee class with such little HP, even with vitality.

If you were insta downed with the backstab at 11k you must be running pure Zerkers……

Simonoly.4352:

Yeah I don’t like the new Lead Attacks. There was some eloquence to maintaining your initiative to obtain the buff, whereas now you just get it by doing what you were going to do anyway. ‘Just attack to do more damage’ is such an uninteresting buff. I’m really not a fan of what Thief is becoming.

Indeed. I miss those little situations of having to choose between whether or not to shadowshot + backstab someone for lower damage and a blind or just go for the kill with a backstab.

The amulet system is flawed in that it supposes you have enough health on all classes to chose an amulet without vitality. All low hp classes need to be boosted to medium or ppl must be allowed to better spread out their stats more like in wvw.

Kicker.8203:

The amulet system is flawed in that it supposes you have enough health on all classes to chose an amulet without vitality. All low hp classes need to be boosted to medium or ppl must be allowed to better spread out their stats more like in wvw.

The amulet system is flawed because the stats themselves are imbalanced relative to boons, and the lack of customization leads to all-or-nothing builds.

Take a Valkyrie mix into WvW and it’s very competitive because stats are strictly better where boons have less of an impact.

Further, on the thief in particular, most of the class’s damage comes from supplementary scaling effects, not raw coefficients. This means reduced innate stat effectiveness causes reduced results from scaling. The difference between PvP and PvE stats creates an environment which cannot be mathematically balanced.

rennlc.7346:

Simonoly.4352:

Yeah I don’t like the new Lead Attacks. There was some eloquence to maintaining your initiative to obtain the buff, whereas now you just get it by doing what you were going to do anyway. ‘Just attack to do more damage’ is such an uninteresting buff. I’m really not a fan of what Thief is becoming.

Indeed. I miss those little situations of having to choose between whether or not to shadowshot + backstab someone for lower damage and a blind or just go for the kill with a backstab.

Yea. I’m slowly seeing the class being overtaken by unnecessary adjustments/buffs while core aspects of the class which have kept it crippled for so long have gone unaddressed. They’re answering problems with power creep and not with actual solutions in respects to blatantly overpowered aspects of other professions. The thief seems to be pushing emphasis on spammy, unskilled play lately more than anything, especially with the introduction of the Daredevil.