Guild Wars 2

If you haven’t read the topic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-present-Vote-for-the-worst-Results/first

Worst profession to use.

PVE exploration: Thief (2nd place)
PVE instance (dungeon/FOTM): Thief (2nd place)
WvW large scale battle: Thief (2nd place)
WvW small scale battle: Thief is doing very well in small scale battles. (Bottom 3rd.)
PvP content: Thief is about average in PvP (4th/5th place)

http://kwiksurveys.com/tmp_pdf/report-CCC1A276386A48288ED187E683949FEE.pdf

I expected thief to do very well in one thing only, do well in WvW small scale battles (thanks to stealth kitten ing people off). Thieves have been nerfed pretty hard from the start and as I expected the class is getting really kittenty to use.

I think this is a great example of how much people over react to stealth in WvW. Imo the most common topic in these forums is the classic “THIEF OP PLEASE NERF,” and then a survey comes out saying thief is the 2nd worst class in almost every aspect of the game! I think this should be a real eye opener for those people who come here to rage about how op thieves are. We are very good at 1v1 combat, but take us into any other scenario and we are terrible. Imo, thieves need much more balance. I was amazed how much more my level 14 ele could support the zerg than my 80 thief. Just the sheer amount of aoe heals from staff and good damage from 1200 range was sooo much better than anything my thief could do. Thanks for posting this

Nothing will ever open a crappy player’s eyes except for hardcore ownage.

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

Now, thief can be fairly good in large scale battles. In the older zerg fights where the zerg was spread out and there was no skill lag, thief was very useful. In the current retarted blobbing meta thief isn’t as useful but meh, who really gives a kitten about that “stack & spam” crap?
They should fix the meta somehow, not thief.

By the way, I find it hilarious that so many people here who rolled the rogue class except to be as good in the open, large scale warfare as warriors xD. Seriously, if you like that kitten so much why don’t you just roll a lvl 1 warrior ? Get the best green / blue gear & trinkets and then the upscaling takes all your stats to 2500. Then you are probably the best #1 spammer that there can be.
My point? That the problem isn’t in thief, it’s in the broken WvW meta that is the result of pve level downed state, aoe cap, plain and small maps, shared rewards and other bad design choices.

Just looked over all the result, to me this looks like a case of people voting on things they don’t even play, but just want to up their profession. That ranger comes in so low is understandable, as they are still fairly weak in most aspects of the game except for tpvp. The only results that don’t seem like bogus to me are the tpvp ones.

The credibility of this test already reaches below every level when it shows how thief is considered one of the worst professions for open world. Really, a profession that can do any interact skill point without having to fight, a profession that moves faster and more efficient then any other class is considered one the worst for exploration and events?

I agree party on the dungeon part, thief isn’t the best for group support except for stealth revives and for the so easily overlooked blind tanking. On the zerg part tough: how is having a personel assassin of squishy targets not incredibly handy? A thief in zerg WvW shouldn’t be fighting like any other class, they should instead do what they are good at: kill fast, efficient and unseen. Take for example a ballista in the back of the enemy zerg. It can plow trough your men like a knife trough butter. But wait, there is a thief. Shadow refuge, wait tilll the stealth is full, run trough the zerg, kill the ballista, move in and out to keep it out of work and there you go, artillery gone.

The problem with thiefs is that there are so many bad ones. The majority of thief players doesn’t even know how most utilitys work. A good thief can be handy in every aspect of this game, as long as you remember that you are not a warrior.

Thief needs substantial buffs, they’re UP.

Design issues make this class unnecessarily difficult for most people who try to play it, I think. It’s not that a thief can’t be effective—it’s that so many possible builds for the class just don’t work. Things that look good on paper can be either useless, or difficult to pull off. And even the learning curve for the builds that DO work is rather steep. So you end up with many weak thieves.

That said, having played all classes, I do think thief is actually overall the weakest. You don’t realize just how weak it is until you start playing something else and find you are in easy mode by comparison.

Good luck fighting in zerg battles with a thief, the skill lag will decimate you if you try to run in behind enemy lines. Yes other classes have to deal with this, but it hurts thieves worst since they rely on evasion and quick escapes through skill usage to avoid focus/damage. Also, the only attack that reliably works (in a timely manner) during zerg fights is the auto-attack, and auto-attacking as a thief is pretty useless in a zerg. This may be different on lower tier servers.

Bacon.4918:

Good luck fighting in zerg battles with a thief, the skill lag will decimate you if you try to run in behind enemy lines. Yes other classes have to deal with this, but it hurts thieves worst since they rely on evasion and quick escapes through skill usage to avoid focus/damage. Also, the only attack that reliably works (in a timely manner) during zerg fights is the auto-attack, and auto-attacking as a thief is pretty useless in a zerg. This may be different on lower tier servers.

Nope, absolutely no different on lower tier servers. I’m on Eredon Terrace and the skill lag is still bad. Even if we only have 20 people, the enemy usually has 40, so the lag is still utterly terrible in a zergvzerg fight.

ive been screaming this at the top of my keyboard for many many months:

“I WILL BE GLAD TO HAVE AN INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION ABOUT THIEVES BEING OP WHEN SOMBODY CAN POINT OUT WHERE THEY ARE OP IN A RELEVANT PART OF THE GAME? PVP? SPVP? TPVP? WVW? PVE? …….DARE ANYONE TO CLAIM ONE OF THESE. KEEP IN MIND 1v1 HAS NO PLACE IN THIS GAME. HENCE THE TITLE OF THE GAME”

no one has ever answer this challenge so what i suggested is to undo all the nerfs up to jan 1 2013. they arent needed since we are only decent at dueling. thank you in advance anet. maybe next time you guys can get off your butts and do somethign like this yourself rather than listen to people who QQ on your forums. you know just a lil insight on QQers for you ANET…… are people more likely to write a letter to restaurant corporate if they had a good time or bad time? 9/10 times its when they have a bad experience….my extensive work in that line tells me that so believe me when i say so. its the same on here. if u have 9 /10 people crying theres90 other poeple satisfied that dont bother bc they dont see a need. DUH

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

I guess another round of beating from a Nerf Bat to everyone else only because Warriors are the worst in PvP.

Talk about bias and dishonest.

Irapi.5937:

Just looked over all the result, to me this looks like a case of people voting on things they don’t even play, but just want to up their profession. That ranger comes in so low is understandable, as they are still fairly weak in most aspects of the game except for tpvp. The only results that don’t seem like bogus to me are the tpvp ones.

The credibility of this test already reaches below every level when it shows how thief is considered one of the worst professions for open world. Really, a profession that can do any interact skill point without having to fight, a profession that moves faster and more efficient then any other class is considered one the worst for exploration and events?

I agree party on the dungeon part, thief isn’t the best for group support except for stealth revives and for the so easily overlooked blind tanking. On the zerg part tough: how is having a personel assassin of squishy targets not incredibly handy? A thief in zerg WvW shouldn’t be fighting like any other class, they should instead do what they are good at: kill fast, efficient and unseen. Take for example a ballista in the back of the enemy zerg. It can plow trough your men like a knife trough butter. But wait, there is a thief. Shadow refuge, wait tilll the stealth is full, run trough the zerg, kill the ballista, move in and out to keep it out of work and there you go, artillery gone.

The problem with thiefs is that there are so many bad ones. The majority of thief players doesn’t even know how most utilitys work. A good thief can be handy in every aspect of this game, as long as you remember that you are not a warrior.

you are whats wrong with every QQer in this game. thief is not good in open world. if the game was called DUEL WARS yes then you sir…would be correct. since its guild wars…and guilds are usually large and everything in guild wars is 8v8 to 120v120 ish which makes you wrong.

there are so many bad thiefs that skew the results? really….so shouldnt we overall suck in the game and have everyone beat most of us making the QQers far and few between? haha yeah thats sounds like what it is.

ok you also say thakittens a case of people not playing enough of other classes? well then why do we have QQers in the first place? another fail. if people did play thief they would realize even more so that we suck overall and are really Underpowered.

the results are fine and would be ONLY slightly more accurate if they had a 2nd place and 3rd place voting as well. would only emphasize the results he has tho so wouldnt make much of a difference obviously.

may i also point out this was not placed in the thief or in the ranger forums. it was in the general guild wars forums as to be focusing on being an unbiased survey. another win for the original poster. you may not agree and if u dont go post your answers and join the extreme minority.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I guess another round of beating from a Nerf Bat to everyone else only because Warriors are the worst in PvP.

Talk about bias and dishonest.

warriors are only so so in small scale combat… in large scale they are just as important as guards.

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Thieves have been nerfed pretty hard from the start and as I expected the class is getting really kittenty to use.

yep….. it’s actually gotten to the point where “just ignore the thief” is the advice given for how to deal with them, just like “just ignore the rogue” is the advice given in WoW. yay…..

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Yea, that about explains the crap parts of our class. We are horrid in PvE and so-so in WvW. Honestly though too, sad they didn’t have a vote for WvW Group Function… Thief would have placed first by a landslide in that one.

Glad they keep chopping chunks off our class. Pretty soon we will just be a moving target for other class in WvW too.

Been trying a few different builds even too, but since this latest ANet kitten patch, even our last 2 viable builds are crap now. S/X is horribly slow now, and D/P P/D condition is nothing short of a joke. Had an elementalist take 1/4 health from my 1300 CD combo with 8 conditions… in 2 seconds he healed full and removed every condition with continual condition removal for 10 seconds.

But hey, congrats to you if you can get thief to work against a player who is not brain-dead. Cause if the person has even half their head out from between their legs, our class is crap.

@icarus. there was a vote for that. WVW large scale. which includes group function :P small scale is more of self interest builds.

btw p/d condi is amazing. prolly just dont know how to play it. grab any other class than thief and i will drop it quick to show you :P.

but allt hat aside thief is almsot dead last in every relevant aspect in the game. EVEN if you take back every single one of the nerfs we wouldnt climb higher than 1 spot…and thats being generous.

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

just wanted to let you know i have PERMA swiftness with runes of centaur and swiftness on dodge roll.. dont even need the regain endurance after dodge roll trait or gain swiftness with steal.. when i had those as well i always was running around with a minute of swiftness

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Well, let’s do the math.

Base movement = 300u/s
+ Swiftness (33%) = 400u/s
or
+ minor Swiftness (25%) = 375u/s

To cover 900u with swiftness (33%) = 2.25s.
To cover 900u with min.swiftness (25%) = 2.4s.
To cover 900u with 2x Heartseeker = 1.5s (.75×2)
To cover 900u with IA = instant

If you factor in pre-cast time and after-cast time, Heartseeker gets even slower.

However, unlike Heartseeker, IA is not affected by speed boost like swiftness. So if the speed boost is factored in, Heartseeker can cover farther than IA for the same amount of Initiatives.

Unfortunately, Heartseeker is also affected by speed debuff making IA’s consistency better in this situation.

Another factor with Heartseeker is the terrain, you can cover more grounds down hill, but unfortunate, it suffers uphill. IA remains consistent in this situation.

In Conclusion, the only deciding factor here is flexibility and consistency that allows better predictability so Shortbow’s IA is much better than Heartseeker. IA also allows you to travel vertically and on different level platform.

Survey is honestly a bad question. In stead of “what’s the worst” it should have been ranking professions in each type of content, So like for dungeons you’d have a list of from best to worst: Guardian, Warrior, Mesmer, Elementalist, Necromancer, Engineer, Thief, Ranger, Zerg Vs Zerg: Guardian, Mesmer, Elementalist, Necromancer, Warrior, Engineer, Thief, Ranger, WvW Roaming/Skirmish: Thief, Mesmer, Guardian, etc.

You’d get more balanced results if it was a ranking rather than “what’s the worst”. I honestly don’t see how ANY people voted that the worst class for dungeons was guardian, for instance, only 5 did, and they must have been trolling…

but it does give some indication on perception of classes at least. Nobody in their right mind should be trying to join PuG dungeons or fractals as a ranger.

I’m amazed by how many thief players try to argue that thieves are good in PvE and zergs. It’s such a clear case of “the game is easy enough that I can make the weakest class work but I don’t realize how weak that class is because I haven’t really played anything else”.

Thieves need buffs in most areas.

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

its not …HS is more distance per initiative. you said its the same as IA for the same init. i understand how you could misunderstand as they are similar statements tho. and necros usually dont use spectral walk :P most anyway. d/d and staff is what my necro uses in any kind of wvw/pvp. i do like warhorn but i feel i get more out of d/d

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

its not …HS is more distance per initiative. you said its the same as IA for the same init. i understand how you could misunderstand as they are similar statements tho. and necros usually dont use spectral walk :P most anyway. d/d and staff is what my necro uses in any kind of wvw/pvp. i do like warhorn but i feel i get more out of d/d

I gave you the numbers lol. HS = 450 range for 3 initiative. 2 HS = 900 range for 6 initiative. IA is 900 range for 6 initiative. Am I missing something here?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Well, let’s do the math.

Base movement = 300u/s
+ Swiftness (33%) = 400u/s
or
+ minor Swiftness (25%) = 375u/s

To cover 900u with swiftness (33%) = 2.25s.
To cover 900u with min.swiftness (25%) = 2.4s.
To cover 900u with 2x Heartseeker = 1.5s (.75×2)
To cover 900u with IA = instant

If you factor in pre-cast time and after-cast time, Heartseeker gets even slower.

However, unlike Heartseeker, IA is not affected by speed boost like swiftness. So if the speed boost is factored in, Heartseeker can cover farther than IA for the same amount of Initiatives.

Unfortunately, Heartseeker is also affected by speed debuff making IA’s consistency better in this situation.

Another factor with Heartseeker is the terrain, you can cover more grounds down hill, but unfortunate, it suffers uphill. IA remains consistent in this situation.

In Conclusion, the only deciding factor here is flexibility and consistency that allows better predictability so Shortbow’s IA is much better than Heartseeker. IA also allows you to travel vertically and on different level platform.

MOST of the time IA is used once…espeically in battle….MOST of the time HS is used3x but lest just say 2x for even comparison….for distance of 450 each. so we have 900 distance for HS (in battle) and we have 625 ish for IA. 6 init vs 6 init. not sure how at any point IA is better unless terrain spots give you an elevation advantage. HS is always better granted you have auto target off. IA is a crap skill and the arrow flight + cast time is equal to that of heartseeker so we are really talking about distance now.

HS gets a slight edge bc of init costs per distance. also HS goes about 600 ish when you have swift/signet up out of battle so out of battle HS owns IA by 50%

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

its not …HS is more distance per initiative. you said its the same as IA for the same init. i understand how you could misunderstand as they are similar statements tho. and necros usually dont use spectral walk :P most anyway. d/d and staff is what my necro uses in any kind of wvw/pvp. i do like warhorn but i feel i get more out of d/d

I gave you the numbers lol. HS = 450 range for 3 initiative. 2 HS = 900 range for 6 initiative. IA is 900 range for 6 initiative. Am I missing something here?

ur missing the “i play thief” experience. IA is about 625 more like 600 maybe a tit less. see that is somethign only a truly experienced thief would know. oh wait…im sorry do you actually cast IA while standing still? well then yes you are right its 900 distance :P my bad. i was figuring we all kind of cast IA on the run….losing 1/3rd of the distance. but i guess technically if u look at wiki ur right :P. its like when you use HS….its actually kind of slow when using 1 bc of the aftercast time to reset….but if u spam them its worth it for distance/time. thats where we differ. perfect world vs actual playing .

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Well, let’s do the math.

Base movement = 300u/s
+ Swiftness (33%) = 400u/s
or
+ minor Swiftness (25%) = 375u/s

To cover 900u with swiftness (33%) = 2.25s.
To cover 900u with min.swiftness (25%) = 2.4s.
To cover 900u with 2x Heartseeker = 1.5s (.75×2)
To cover 900u with IA = instant

If you factor in pre-cast time and after-cast time, Heartseeker gets even slower.

However, unlike Heartseeker, IA is not affected by speed boost like swiftness. So if the speed boost is factored in, Heartseeker can cover farther than IA for the same amount of Initiatives.

Unfortunately, Heartseeker is also affected by speed debuff making IA’s consistency better in this situation.

Another factor with Heartseeker is the terrain, you can cover more grounds down hill, but unfortunate, it suffers uphill. IA remains consistent in this situation.

In Conclusion, the only deciding factor here is flexibility and consistency that allows better predictability so Shortbow’s IA is much better than Heartseeker. IA also allows you to travel vertically and on different level platform.

I can make a video showing but takes time and experience says HS is 90% of the time better. 2 HS gives 50% more distance than IA for the same init.

Travlane.5948:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Well, let’s do the math.

Base movement = 300u/s
+ Swiftness (33%) = 400u/s
or
+ minor Swiftness (25%) = 375u/s

To cover 900u with swiftness (33%) = 2.25s.
To cover 900u with min.swiftness (25%) = 2.4s.
To cover 900u with 2x Heartseeker = 1.5s (.75×2)
To cover 900u with IA = instant

If you factor in pre-cast time and after-cast time, Heartseeker gets even slower.

However, unlike Heartseeker, IA is not affected by speed boost like swiftness. So if the speed boost is factored in, Heartseeker can cover farther than IA for the same amount of Initiatives.

Unfortunately, Heartseeker is also affected by speed debuff making IA’s consistency better in this situation.

Another factor with Heartseeker is the terrain, you can cover more grounds down hill, but unfortunate, it suffers uphill. IA remains consistent in this situation.

In Conclusion, the only deciding factor here is flexibility and consistency that allows better predictability so Shortbow’s IA is much better than Heartseeker. IA also allows you to travel vertically and on different level platform.

I can make a video showing but takes time and experience says HS is 90% of the time better. 2 HS gives 50% more distance than IA for the same init.

make the video.

in any case, IA is definately better for burst.

Finished my thief finally so just gotta kit out with my build (SD/DP and won’t rely on stealth as a control tool like all these annoying perma stealthers. ).

Levelled mostly with shortbow PP cos everything single target = getting blown up if more than one enemy which was a little annoying after main ele, then mesmer. The problem with W3 is the frequency you can stealth being annoying. Even worse that once a thief starts, they’ll just keep pestering you. That’s the problem I have… Not thieves being able to burst. Thieves just become a thorn in your side which never goes away, and cos of constant stealth, makes it annoying running from what is essentially your own shadow. At least with other classes you can see your stalker (mesmer built certain way not as much though rare)

The #2 SB nerf makes no sense though since it’s the only proper AOE skill. Should have a PvE/PvP split so thief in PvE can be more fun! Thief in PvE seriously needs some love.

At least the thief downed state is pretty awesome… much of the rest could use some tweaking though. Bad at group play and can’t beat several classes 1v1 unless they are braindead (looks @ guardian & mesmer)… capped at 900 range… so what is my thief for? Oh… I can gank yaks pretty kitten well on my thief. Aight thanks.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The only reason why there are so many thief QQs on the forums is because only people disgruntled with it come and cry. People don’t go to the forums to say “Thief is so balanced!”, they mainly only go to another class’ forum if they have a problem with the class. The forums DO NOT represent the majority, as the survey showed. Even most people in my guild(by that I mean practically everyone) has no problem with thieves.

Also, the only thing thieves really excel at against other classes is roaming, and it sticks out when a thief kills you in a 1v1. People don’t complain guardians are OP in large scale zerg combat, because it doesn’t stick out, but in reality guardians are probably by far the best class for large scale combat due to the massive output of healing.

Aberrant.6749:

At least the thief downed state is pretty awesome…

Only in PvP. It’s utterly useless in PvE.

Dual.8953:

Aberrant.6749:

At least the thief downed state is pretty awesome…

Only in PvP. It’s utterly useless in PvE.

PvE wise the stealth sucks… the tele isn’t bad though… and the auto attack does decent damage… it’s still better than almost all of the other classes.

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

its not …HS is more distance per initiative. you said its the same as IA for the same init. i understand how you could misunderstand as they are similar statements tho. and necros usually dont use spectral walk :P most anyway. d/d and staff is what my necro uses in any kind of wvw/pvp. i do like warhorn but i feel i get more out of d/d

I gave you the numbers lol. HS = 450 range for 3 initiative. 2 HS = 900 range for 6 initiative. IA is 900 range for 6 initiative. Am I missing something here?

ur missing the “i play thief” experience. IA is about 625 more like 600 maybe a tit less. see that is somethign only a truly experienced thief would know. oh wait…im sorry do you actually cast IA while standing still? well then yes you are right its 900 distance :P my bad. i was figuring we all kind of cast IA on the run….losing 1/3rd of the distance. but i guess technically if u look at wiki ur right :P. its like when you use HS….its actually kind of slow when using 1 bc of the aftercast time to reset….but if u spam them its worth it for distance/time. thats where we differ. perfect world vs actual playing .

Thief was my first 80, and is my main. I don’t lack the “i play thief” experience. And my experience tells me that to get out of a jam fast I should use shortbow because it is 1. instant except for very short travel time of the arrow, 2. able to port you 900 range that would take more than 900 range to walk (aka, up a cliff), and 3. Much more reliable. You never know when you’re going to get crippled or chilled and have your hs distance halved. But, this is not what this topic is about, so how about we agree to disagree or create a different forum topic for this, k

I actually think the Thief is one of the better classes for map completion. I even used mine to get World Completion. Shadow Signet + Infiltrator’s Arrow + Shadowstep makes for extremely easy map travel, Shadow Refuge makes capping skill points braindead easy, Signet of Malice + Dagger Storm + Shortbow makes groups pretty easy to deal with, and stealth lets you get away whenever you get in over your head.

The Thief is also really strong in world events thanks to Cluster Bomb allowing us to complete the combo fields that drop all over the place.

For dungeons, thieves are worse than warriors when you want someone who can stand in one place and beat on a boss, but has crazygood group utility with our ways of sharing stealth (good for skips) and we still have really strong damage.

WvW large-scale battles, there’s some truth to our low ranking. But even then, Shortbow outputs very high AoE damage and careful use of stealth + shadowsteps can keep you darting around a fight with near-impunity dealing precision strikes.

Dual.8953:

Aberrant.6749:

At least the thief downed state is pretty awesome…

Only in PvP. It’s utterly useless in PvE.

2 is useful for getting yourself out of red circles and 3 is pretty much a free heal if you use Shadow’s Rejuvenation (which I do — I love Shadow Arts so very much).

Excalibur.9748:

Travlane.5948:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Well, let’s do the math.

Base movement = 300u/s
+ Swiftness (33%) = 400u/s
or
+ minor Swiftness (25%) = 375u/s

To cover 900u with swiftness (33%) = 2.25s.
To cover 900u with min.swiftness (25%) = 2.4s.
To cover 900u with 2x Heartseeker = 1.5s (.75×2)
To cover 900u with IA = instant

If you factor in pre-cast time and after-cast time, Heartseeker gets even slower.

However, unlike Heartseeker, IA is not affected by speed boost like swiftness. So if the speed boost is factored in, Heartseeker can cover farther than IA for the same amount of Initiatives.

Unfortunately, Heartseeker is also affected by speed debuff making IA’s consistency better in this situation.

Another factor with Heartseeker is the terrain, you can cover more grounds down hill, but unfortunate, it suffers uphill. IA remains consistent in this situation.

In Conclusion, the only deciding factor here is flexibility and consistency that allows better predictability so Shortbow’s IA is much better than Heartseeker. IA also allows you to travel vertically and on different level platform.

I can make a video showing but takes time and experience says HS is 90% of the time better. 2 HS gives 50% more distance than IA for the same init.

make the video.

in any case, IA is definately better for burst.

sure. make a bet first? so its worth mmy time? 20g ?

@CRAIG

i said before SB 5 (IA) is only better usually on elevation changes. other than that HS gets you better distance per time and initiative. period. care to wager lemme know ill make a video. not that you’ll pay when u lose but ill give you one hint siince you dotn seem to play thief much. onlytime you get 900 distance with IA is if you are a bad thief and cant multi task or if you are rooted from ranger pet. other than that you get about 600-625 depending on combat mode or not. :P

Aberrant.6749:

At least the thief downed state is pretty awesome… much of the rest could use some tweaking though. Bad at group play and can’t beat several classes 1v1 unless they are braindead (looks @ guardian & mesmer)… capped at 900 range… so what is my thief for? Oh… I can gank yaks pretty kitten well on my thief. Aight thanks.

Thief downed state is utterly wretched, like the worst of any class, while leveling in the open world and contributes to why Thieves feel weak in PvE.

Einlanzer.1627:

Aberrant.6749:

At least the thief downed state is pretty awesome… much of the rest could use some tweaking though. Bad at group play and can’t beat several classes 1v1 unless they are braindead (looks @ guardian & mesmer)… capped at 900 range… so what is my thief for? Oh… I can gank yaks pretty kitten well on my thief. Aight thanks.

Thief downed state is utterly wretched, like the worst of any class, while leveling in the open world and contributes to why Thieves feel weak in PvE.

Please go play an engineer… then come back and tell me thief downed is wretched.

@aberrant i dont mind engi downed state too much. its not great but i like the ice and pull and pushbacks. you have 3 CCs on yours. ICE/DMG on skill 1….skill 2 is pull/KD and skill 3 is a big dmg blast that Knocks back. thats alot of control. thieve’s only hope is to bounce a dagger off a target and hope one of them dies so there is a rally revive.!

Aberrant.6749:

Einlanzer.1627:

Aberrant.6749:

At least the thief downed state is pretty awesome… much of the rest could use some tweaking though. Bad at group play and can’t beat several classes 1v1 unless they are braindead (looks @ guardian & mesmer)… capped at 900 range… so what is my thief for? Oh… I can gank yaks pretty kitten well on my thief. Aight thanks.

Thief downed state is utterly wretched, like the worst of any class, while leveling in the open world and contributes to why Thieves feel weak in PvE.

Please go play an engineer… then come back and tell me thief downed is wretched.

I do play an Engineer. It’s bad, but I don’t think it’s worse than Thief. I think both are well below average.