Guild Wars 2

Since Thieves are so fragile, and it seems that everything we do revolves around survivability, I think that Thieves deserve to have a slightly different dodge mechanic than other classes.

Dodge Roll = 1 Init

Well your suggestion is basically asking for increase init regen not a new dodge mechanic. Also you idea for 1 init is not needed and kinda op.

Honestly if they just fixed the sword cast time and buff some of the thief useless utilities the thief would be in a good spot.

Would like “Dodge = Remove 1 Condition” before “Dodge = +1 initiative”.

vincecontix.1264:

Well your suggestion is basically asking for increase init regen not a new dodge mechanic. Also you idea for 1 init is not needed and kinda op.

Honestly if they just fixed the sword cast time and buff some of the thief useless utilities the thief would be in a good spot.

I’m not asking for increased init regen, how’d you get that from what I said?

By tying dodging to Init instead of endurance, you give Thieves the option of spending Init on defense or offense – as much as they want. Plus, whatever Init regen you are using, contributes to your evasion just as much as it contributes to offense.

It also lets you store up a bunch of consecutive dodges, if you choose.

Thieves have too few defensive options – this is the limiting factor that forces cookie cutter builds.

Permastealth is a result of that. It’s not because it’s an appealing style of play, it works because Thieves have to mitigate damage somehow, and this just happened to be one that worked out.

Give Thieves the ability to dodge from their universal resource – Init – and you provide a baseline of evasion/defense, no matter what build you are going for.

You can build all out DA/CS and you still have a minimum amount of dodging/evasion available to you.

The exact cost isn’t of concern to me – maybe it should be 2, or maybe even 3 (though I doubt it – seems like no higher than 2 Init is appropriate).

The point is, having more dodge on demand than other classes is appropriate for the Thief, who is the most vulnerable character in the game, and should be more slippery than any other class.

Zacchary.6183:

Would like “Dodge = Remove 1 Condition” before “Dodge = +1 initiative”.

This should be a new trait, in addition to tying dodging to our Init.

Or, here’s an idea for an alternative heal:

Dodging heals you and removes one condition.

ipan.4356:

vincecontix.1264:

Well your suggestion is basically asking for increase init regen not a new dodge mechanic. Also you idea for 1 init is not needed and kinda op.

Honestly if they just fixed the sword cast time and buff some of the thief useless utilities the thief would be in a good spot.

I’m not asking for increased init regen, how’d you get that from what I said?

By tying dodging to Init instead of endurance, you give Thieves the option of spending Init on defense or offense – as much as they want. Plus, whatever Init regen you are using, contributes to your evasion just as much as it contributes to offense.

It also lets you store up a bunch of consecutive dodges, if you choose.

Thieves have too few defensive options – this is the limiting factor that forces cookie cutter builds.

Permastealth is a result of that. It’s not because it’s an appealing style of play, it works because Thieves have to mitigate damage somehow, and this just happened to be one that worked out.

Give Thieves the ability to dodge from their universal resource – Init – and you provide a baseline of evasion/defense, no matter what build you are going for.

You can build all out DA/CS and you still have a minimum amount of dodging/evasion available to you.

The exact cost isn’t of concern to me – maybe it should be 2, or maybe even 3 (though I doubt it – seems like no higher than 2 Init is appropriate).

The point is, having more dodge on demand than other classes is appropriate for the Thief, who is the most vulnerable character in the game, and should be more slippery than any other class.

lol I get what you are saying now but no the possibility for more dodge spam is not a good idea.

It makes sense for the Thief – we die too easy.

Thieves dies too easy when build such way. Don’t go glass cannon and u will have more survival ability. Any class dies fast if build glass cannon.

Counter to your future arguments: Perma stealth.

Nuorus.8415:

Thieves dies too easy when build such way. Don’t go glass cannon and u will have more survival ability. Any class dies fast if build glass cannon.

Counter to your future arguments: Perma stealth.

Permastealth makes a thief completely useless and they still die quickly.

I don’t have a glass cannon build.

This is my build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQRAoY8ImQ2ZsT6EPDL0p8UAWdFA-jECBYiDimCMQk0hONtIas12FRjVPjIqWfEzcrIa1SBYuuK-w

Needs moar evasion.

Zacchary.6183:

Nuorus.8415:

Thieves dies too easy when build such way. Don’t go glass cannon and u will have more survival ability. Any class dies fast if build glass cannon.

Counter to your future arguments: Perma stealth.

Permastealth makes a thief completely useless and they still die quickly.

Dies quickly only on hands of those who doesn’t think at all what skills does and when u should use em. Perma stealth saves your character from death, certainly sometimes u give up killing the enemy. You have to give something to gain something. You can’t have it all.
Your Thief is squishy? Then it kills enemies fast. Except if someone goes really not-so-smart with the equipment and the traits.

Warrior has highest base stats, doesn’t have any dirty tricks.

Guardian does have nice base stats except health, has nice utility skills to cower up the lack of hp

Elementalist has 4 elements to roll over and so wont have high hp nor armor.

Necromancer has deathshroud, almost second healthpool. Doesn’t have high armor.

Engineer has many dirty tricks to cover up the lack of high defensive stats

Mesmer has clones + short invisibility + some dirty tricks

Ranger has all the shame and weaknesses

Thief has High burst dps, perma stealth, low survival ability specially if not given up something to make it better. Thief kills fastest and can hide after that. Or it can give up perma stealth and dodge all the time while dealing nice damage.

I don’t want to share my theif build but it has 40points on defensive traits, it deals medium damage and has medium survival ability, dodges a lot. I only use it on tPvP not WvW which is ofc different but I can’t say it’s impossible to copy the build to WvW. Also I got a friend who can do 1vs3 with his thief. We bouth duel a lot. Mostly 1vs1 but when we get kitteny we want more.

Lyssa runes are very effective on these medium survival ability medium damage balance builds.

iPan Get offhand pistol and find out how easy thief really is.

THIS JUST IN, PERMASTEALTH WAS DELETED FROM THE GAME 16 DAYS AGO!

Holy kitten at the amount of people who still spout bullkitten about Theives being able to permastealth. Not only does stealth != invulnerability and anyone with two brain cells to rub together can counter it, but permastealth was removed in the 10th of December patch by changing Infusion of Shadow to not give initiative if you use a stealth ability while already in stealth.

Nuorus.8415:

stuff

Squishy, as in worst heal scaling. Squishy, as in worst condition removal. Squishy, as in bad stunbreaks. Squishy, as in lack of defensive boons (and don’t give me that “use X runes” bull).

And permastealth does not get you out of situations. Bad enemies do. It isn’t hard to think, “What would I be doing if I was them?” and then immediately countering it especially coming from a profession that plays like a game of simon-says.

Now if this “permastealth” is soooooo powerful, why isn’t every player in the game using it?

Maybe adding Distortion for 2 seconds when we use Steal? Maybe add it to Mug to make it useful again :/

Thief Adept Trait:

Gains a random boon after dodge roll

- Stability
- Protection
- Regeneration

*End of dodge roll also steals + remove a boon within 400 radius
*End of dodge roll also blinds enemy within 400 radius
*End of dodge roll also knocks down enemy within 400 radius
*Thief has 50% chance of gaining 1 initiative after dodge roll; 7.77% chance of restoring all initiative (45s CD); 10% chance of 3s stealth (30 s CD)

Reasoning: Thieves need all of the above in 1 nice package; otherwise, they lack build variety and are “just too squishy”.

Nuorus.8415:

Zacchary.6183:

Nuorus.8415:

Thieves dies too easy when build such way. Don’t go glass cannon and u will have more survival ability. Any class dies fast if build glass cannon.

Counter to your future arguments: Perma stealth.

Permastealth makes a thief completely useless and they still die quickly.

Dies quickly only on hands of those who doesn’t think at all what skills does and when u should use em. Perma stealth saves your character from death, certainly sometimes u give up killing the enemy. You have to give something to gain something. You can’t have it all.
Your Thief is squishy? Then it kills enemies fast. Except if someone goes really not-so-smart with the equipment and the traits.

Warrior has highest base stats, doesn’t have any dirty tricks.

Guardian does have nice base stats except health, has nice utility skills to cower up the lack of hp

Elementalist has 4 elements to roll over and so wont have high hp nor armor.

Necromancer has deathshroud, almost second healthpool. Doesn’t have high armor.

Engineer has many dirty tricks to cover up the lack of high defensive stats

Mesmer has clones + short invisibility + some dirty tricks

Ranger has all the shame and weaknesses

Thief has High burst dps, perma stealth, low survival ability specially if not given up something to make it better. Thief kills fastest and can hide after that. Or it can give up perma stealth and dodge all the time while dealing nice damage.

I don’t want to share my theif build but it has 40points on defensive traits, it deals medium damage and has medium survival ability, dodges a lot. I only use it on tPvP not WvW which is ofc different but I can’t say it’s impossible to copy the build to WvW. Also I got a friend who can do 1vs3 with his thief. We bouth duel a lot. Mostly 1vs1 but when we get kitteny we want more.

Lyssa runes are very effective on these medium survival ability medium damage balance builds.

iPan Get offhand pistol and find out how easy thief really is.

yes, yes, the infamous 30/30/30/30/30 builds.

So you can have more than 10 secs of continuous dodging? Doesn’t sound OP at all.

if dodge costs 1 init you can basically perma dodge, Although i would love it, it would be over powered as hell.

naphack.9346:

Nuorus.8415:

Zacchary.6183:

Nuorus.8415:

Thieves dies too easy when build such way. Don’t go glass cannon and u will have more survival ability. Any class dies fast if build glass cannon.

Counter to your future arguments: Perma stealth.

Permastealth makes a thief completely useless and they still die quickly.

Dies quickly only on hands of those who doesn’t think at all what skills does and when u should use em. Perma stealth saves your character from death, certainly sometimes u give up killing the enemy. You have to give something to gain something. You can’t have it all.
Your Thief is squishy? Then it kills enemies fast. Except if someone goes really not-so-smart with the equipment and the traits.

Warrior has highest base stats, doesn’t have any dirty tricks.

Guardian does have nice base stats except health, has nice utility skills to cower up the lack of hp

Elementalist has 4 elements to roll over and so wont have high hp nor armor.

Necromancer has deathshroud, almost second healthpool. Doesn’t have high armor.

Engineer has many dirty tricks to cover up the lack of high defensive stats

Mesmer has clones + short invisibility + some dirty tricks

Ranger has all the shame and weaknesses

Thief has High burst dps, perma stealth, low survival ability specially if not given up something to make it better. Thief kills fastest and can hide after that. Or it can give up perma stealth and dodge all the time while dealing nice damage.

I don’t want to share my theif build but it has 40points on defensive traits, it deals medium damage and has medium survival ability, dodges a lot. I only use it on tPvP not WvW which is ofc different but I can’t say it’s impossible to copy the build to WvW. Also I got a friend who can do 1vs3 with his thief. We bouth duel a lot. Mostly 1vs1 but when we get kitteny we want more.

Lyssa runes are very effective on these medium survival ability medium damage balance builds.

iPan Get offhand pistol and find out how easy thief really is.

yes, yes, the infamous 30/30/30/30/30 builds.

This and the other answer above shows how close minded people you are. You just whine and expect things to get better like spoiled kids. Problem being learn2Play issue you blame others and go with these really unrealistic “parody” replies.

And dissing Lyssa runes? That’s my future argument to all of you. You diss lyssa, that’s the proving factor about not knowing much about the game.

Whining how not being able to be powerfull while on permastealth tells me you didn’t read what I typed, you just saw that part and whined.

Do not copy paste builds, learn to build yourself, experiment on sets, do some thinking yourself. It’s the only way to advance and learn how things works. I spent about 500g to test stuff on WvW and my main income is salvaging my old items. The ones which didn’t work. But in the result I got what I wanted. Other build than popular builds. Works. Fun. Different.

You guys want to spend nothing and gain everything. That’s your problem.

looking at dec 10th nerfs, i don’t think anet wants thieves to have any dodges outside of base ones tbh

we suppose to stay in combat, don’t go in stealth, don’t dodge and not allowed to do aoe dmg while points in pvp are spammed with condis/aoe by other classes non stop…apprently

Axelwarrior.9084:

So you can have more than 10 secs of continuous dodging? Doesn’t sound OP at all.

And while you’re dodging, you’re not doing any damage to anyone else, and when you’re done, you have no initiative left = no offense, except autoattack.

Everything’s a trade off.

IMO Thiefs need more offensive defensives. By this i mean more access to conditions that increase thiefs survivability.
eg.
Single target near “perm blind”(applies blind 1/sec over 5sec)
Mass confusion stack for short duration
Weaken (not through poison)

More ways to apply Weakness would be great.

This is the rationale for the sword changes and the init and vigor changes :

Problem) some players complain that the thief DPS is too high

Analysis) lower thief weap dmg and/or util dmg will cause players to quit

Solution) make thief less survivable and when the player base self-adjusts to
make higher survivable builds, the players will reduce their own DPS
(thief traits are structured to have survival OR high dmg – not both.)

Brett.4305:

This is the rationale for the sword changes and the init and vigor changes :

Problem) some players complain that the thief DPS is too high

Analysis) lower thief weap dmg and/or util dmg will cause players to quit

Solution) make thief less survivable and when the player base self-adjusts to
make higher survivable builds, the players will reduce their own DPS
(thief traits are structured to have survival OR high dmg – not both.)

yes but you can be medicore on bouth. Just don’t go full survival nor full dmg. And btw it’s rather fun to be like that.

…or reroll warrior and have everything heh

Nuorus.8415:

naphack.9346:

Nuorus.8415:

Zacchary.6183:

Nuorus.8415:

Thieves dies too easy when build such way. Don’t go glass cannon and u will have more survival ability. Any class dies fast if build glass cannon.

Counter to your future arguments: Perma stealth.

Permastealth makes a thief completely useless and they still die quickly.

Dies quickly only on hands of those who doesn’t think at all what skills does and when u should use em. Perma stealth saves your character from death, certainly sometimes u give up killing the enemy. You have to give something to gain something. You can’t have it all.
Your Thief is squishy? Then it kills enemies fast. Except if someone goes really not-so-smart with the equipment and the traits.

Warrior has highest base stats, doesn’t have any dirty tricks.

Guardian does have nice base stats except health, has nice utility skills to cower up the lack of hp

Elementalist has 4 elements to roll over and so wont have high hp nor armor.

Necromancer has deathshroud, almost second healthpool. Doesn’t have high armor.

Engineer has many dirty tricks to cover up the lack of high defensive stats

Mesmer has clones + short invisibility + some dirty tricks

Ranger has all the shame and weaknesses

Thief has High burst dps, perma stealth, low survival ability specially if not given up something to make it better. Thief kills fastest and can hide after that. Or it can give up perma stealth and dodge all the time while dealing nice damage.

I don’t want to share my theif build but it has 40points on defensive traits, it deals medium damage and has medium survival ability, dodges a lot. I only use it on tPvP not WvW which is ofc different but I can’t say it’s impossible to copy the build to WvW. Also I got a friend who can do 1vs3 with his thief. We bouth duel a lot. Mostly 1vs1 but when we get kitteny we want more.

Lyssa runes are very effective on these medium survival ability medium damage balance builds.

iPan Get offhand pistol and find out how easy thief really is.

yes, yes, the infamous 30/30/30/30/30 builds.

This and the other answer above shows how close minded people you are. You just whine and expect things to get better like spoiled kids. Problem being learn2Play issue you blame others and go with these really unrealistic “parody” replies.

And dissing Lyssa runes? That’s my future argument to all of you. You diss lyssa, that’s the proving factor about not knowing much about the game.

Whining how not being able to be powerfull while on permastealth tells me you didn’t read what I typed, you just saw that part and whined.

Do not copy paste builds, learn to build yourself, experiment on sets, do some thinking yourself. It’s the only way to advance and learn how things works. I spent about 500g to test stuff on WvW and my main income is salvaging my old items. The ones which didn’t work. But in the result I got what I wanted. Other build than popular builds. Works. Fun. Different.

You guys want to spend nothing and gain everything. That’s your problem.

fyi, I almost never copy builds…
One of the only builds, I ever copied, was probably my condition bunker ranger, which was ripped straight from Xsorus.
If I want to copy a build, I usually evaluate the different elements, of which the build consists and then match and mix it with my own preferences. If you want something, you have to give up on something else. The difference between similar builds is usually what was given up on. This is usually personal preference.

Thief is op as they are. I can build an ok survability build while doing hard damage.

Cynz.9437:

…or reroll warrior and have everything heh

Yea I love stealth on my warrior and the clones, also the elements and the spirits, pets and guardian weapons. Love it all on my warrior. The pistols and the staff with the grenades are absolutely epic on WvW. When I jump in zerg I use tornado elite to spin to win! And if I have change to go down I pop up my deathshroud! That’s just epic on WvW!

Nuorus.8415:

Cynz.9437:

…or reroll warrior and have everything heh

Yea I love stealth on my warrior and the clones, also the elements and the spirits, pets and guardian weapons. Love it all on my warrior. The pistols and the staff with the grenades are absolutely epic on WvW. When I jump in zerg I use tornado elite to spin to win! And if I have change to go down I pop up my deathshroud! That’s just epic on WvW!

O.o why do/would you need all that on a warrior… when you’re a warrior…?

Would you like the ability to bind “Win” to a button as well?

Zero Day.2594:

Nuorus.8415:

Cynz.9437:

…or reroll warrior and have everything heh

Yea I love stealth on my warrior and the clones, also the elements and the spirits, pets and guardian weapons. Love it all on my warrior. The pistols and the staff with the grenades are absolutely epic on WvW. When I jump in zerg I use tornado elite to spin to win! And if I have change to go down I pop up my deathshroud! That’s just epic on WvW!

O.o why do/would you need all that on a warrior… when you’re a warrior…?

Would you like the ability to bind “Win” to a button as well?

Its called Eviscerate.

There is no need for a new dodge mechanic. What I belive, based on Opening Post (OP), that he really needs to LEARN doding. When, where, why, when not to.

Thiefs already have 2 base dodges like everyone.
Plus one from traits, so 3 in a row.
Plus one that’s really long, heals and removes mobility condtions.
Plus one that’s really long, and gives back initative.
Plus one with d/d (skill 3).
Plus one with s/p (skill 3, just not written).
Plus shadowstep if you want to create distance without using endurance.
Plus the ink arrow teleport (sb skil 5)

There is no need for more dodges. Instead of asking for “I don’t know how to play, there must be something wrong with the game”, actually invest a lil time and thinking into it. I mean no offense or anything, just don’t know how to say it in another way.

SaltyDave.7346:

There is no need for a new dodge mechanic. What I belive, based on Opening Post (OP), that he really needs to LEARN doding. When, where, why, when not to.

Thiefs already have 2 base dodges like everyone.
Plus one from traits, so 3 in a row.
Plus one that’s really long, heals and removes mobility condtions.
Plus one that’s really long, and gives back initative.
Plus one with d/d (skill 3).
Plus one with s/p (skill 3, just not written).
Plus shadowstep if you want to create distance without using endurance.
Plus the ink arrow teleport (sb skil 5)

There is no need for more dodges. Instead of asking for “I don’t know how to play, there must be something wrong with the game”, actually invest a lil time and thinking into it. I mean no offense or anything, just don’t know how to say it in another way.

SS without using endurance? many classes have a gap closer/creator on a weapon/utility. point?

extra dodge with trait? no ….not quite. its only 20% extra endurance per dodge. it helps but 2 dodges does not = 1 extra dodge.

RFI? 60 sec CD does not help with survivability. this is more for extra init to pressure an opponent down on last 20% hp. it CAN be used as a one time stunbreak save but not a reliable defense booster.

pistol whip? has a 1:1 ratio…. precast time plus aftercast is a vulnerable time where you receive dmg and cant do a darn thing about it. so for all the time you evade during PW….theres the same amount of time you take dmg or can take dmg without being able to prevent/mitigate.

same thing with deathblossom….but much worse . its like 5:1 …..for the time you acgtually evade (1/4s) there is 5x the amount in precast/aftercast where you receive dmg…its too dangerous to use. never use this skill unless in pve….even there be careful!

etc etc. its not all glamour from the thief side. gotta understand everything we have is a drawback or risk.

^^
Additionally the evade window on deathblossom is in a weird timeframe making it very difficult to actually use as a dodge.

Zero Day.2594:

Nuorus.8415:

Cynz.9437:

…or reroll warrior and have everything heh

Yea I love stealth on my warrior and the clones, also the elements and the spirits, pets and guardian weapons. Love it all on my warrior. The pistols and the staff with the grenades are absolutely epic on WvW. When I jump in zerg I use tornado elite to spin to win! And if I have change to go down I pop up my deathshroud! That’s just epic on WvW!

O.o why do/would you need all that on a warrior… when you’re a warrior…?

Would you like the ability to bind “Win” to a button as well?

“have everything” – the other guy
What did you not understand? You obviously didn’t understand.