Guild Wars 2

As the question states can someone tell me which ability hits the hardest for low level thieves ? (<lvl 60)

Dagger mainland will probably do the most damage.

With an offhand pistol you can use Shadow Shot to great effect dps wise. Individual strike damage will probably favor backstab…but maybe not the dps overall.

I’d recommend using sword mainhand, pistol offhand. Since you’re most likely talking about PvE, you’ll often face multiple monsters at once. Sword hits 3 targets, its #3 ability allows you to avoid taking damage while dishing a good bit out.

@Turk.5460

I assume you are talking about “Pistol Whip” right ?

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

In the sim it does shows crazy dmg..

Let me check it out

Pistol Whip or Unload. Both are channeled and big hitters. I don’t think anything else will even be close.

The advantage of PW over unload is multiple enemies can be attacked and you get the opportunity to trigger added damage off the Interrupt if using PI and interrupt sigil like draining.

The advantage of PP Unload over PW is might stacking and the ability to continue moving while attacking from range where one can use Seaweed salad.

The largest damage I can recollect seeing in WvW off my PP unload was 8 strikes that all managed to crit against a tower champion at around 3700 per. This while using seaweed salad and a sigl of night plus force on the set. At some point I may have pumped out more but did make a point to note it after the fight.

Unload not only ramps up the might quickly but will boost damage off lead attacks to the full 15 percent rapidly and kick in 40 percent more off both the combination of executioner , The Bound percentage add (if traited) and exposed weakness. In sum total with seaweed and night with force sigil this a boost of some 80 (multiplicative) from all sources before might stacks factored in and before Crits to your attack . You can squeeze another ten on top of that in scholars. (as I recall this significantly over 2x damage before might added and before crit.)

That is some huge damage which can boost up follow up bounds , PI’s or weapon swaps to another set for an AOE vault HS ar AA attack while that might still runs.

it those multiplicative damage adds that play the largest role in determining damage output of a given attack.

babazhook.6805:

The advantage of PW over unload is multiple enemies can be attacked and you get the opportunity to trigger added damage off the Interrupt if using PI and interrupt sigil like draining.

The advantage of PP Unload over PW is might stacking and the ability to continue moving while attacking from range where one can use Seaweed salad.

The largest damage I can recollect seeing in WvW off my PP unload was 8 strikes that all managed to crit against a tower champion at around 3700 per. This while using seaweed salad and a sigl of night plus force on the set. At some point I may have pumped out more but did make a point to note it after the fight.

Unload not only ramps up the might quickly but will boost damage off lead attacks to the full 15 percent rapidly and kick in 40 percent more off both the combination of executioner , The Bound percentage add (if traited) and exposed weakness. In sum total with seaweed and night with force sigil this a boost of some 80 (multiplicative) from all sources before might stacks factored in and before Crits to your attack . You can squeeze another ten on top of that in scholars. (as I recall this significantly over 2x damage before might added and before crit.)

That is some huge damage which can boost up follow up bounds , PI’s or weapon swaps to another set for an AOE vault HS ar AA attack while that might still runs.

it those multiplicative damage adds that play the largest role in determining damage output of a given attack.

<lvl 60

Turk.5460:

babazhook.6805:

The advantage of PW over unload is multiple enemies can be attacked and you get the opportunity to trigger added damage off the Interrupt if using PI and interrupt sigil like draining.

The advantage of PP Unload over PW is might stacking and the ability to continue moving while attacking from range where one can use Seaweed salad.

The largest damage I can recollect seeing in WvW off my PP unload was 8 strikes that all managed to crit against a tower champion at around 3700 per. This while using seaweed salad and a sigl of night plus force on the set. At some point I may have pumped out more but did make a point to note it after the fight.

Unload not only ramps up the might quickly but will boost damage off lead attacks to the full 15 percent rapidly and kick in 40 percent more off both the combination of executioner , The Bound percentage add (if traited) and exposed weakness. In sum total with seaweed and night with force sigil this a boost of some 80 (multiplicative) from all sources before might stacks factored in and before Crits to your attack . You can squeeze another ten on top of that in scholars. (as I recall this significantly over 2x damage before might added and before crit.)

That is some huge damage which can boost up follow up bounds , PI’s or weapon swaps to another set for an AOE vault HS ar AA attack while that might still runs.

it those multiplicative damage adds that play the largest role in determining damage output of a given attack.

<lvl 60

Sorry missed that. But that said even at under level 60 you should ensure you get those damage adds out of traits if you want to hit the hardest.

babazhook.6805:

Sorry missed that. But that said even at under level 60 you should ensure you get those damage adds out of traits if you want to hit the hardest.

He is correct. Damage multipliers are what makes for the truly big shots. Food, trait lines, utilities, etc that add a damage modifier (X% to damage) amplify each other so each multiplier makes all other multipliers stronger.

Unload with more than one activation will out-damage PW with other subsequent re-activations from the might stacking.

On a single hit, the most potent ability without Daredevil is Backstab. Given Daredevil, vault does slightly more damage and can be built to deal substantially more.

PW is better in combination with Signet of Malice than Unload as unload hits only 1 target, while as like explained PW hits multiple targets, so SoM triggers hits healing much much ,which makes it additionally with the inbuild auto evade from it a much better way to play PvE and alot safer for inexperienced Thief players that are still just leveling their thieves up and don’t have maxed out endgame gear.

Sure, from a simple spamming will unload outdamage on the logn run PW, but damage is in PvE not absolutely everything.
You need also sustain, especially as super squishy inexperienced Thief, so that making a mistake with the more defensive and sustainign PW/SoM Combo will be alot more forgiving for you. The extra on demand blind comes in handy as well with PW so that you can literally tank foes also in PvE just with PW.
Plus the daze from PW is especialyl usefull in the extreme CC heavy endgame in PvE, where you need to have as Thief on demand CC ready on spot for specific world bosses and events to get rid quickly of the Break Bars to deal significantly more damage to those foes in the time that the Break Bar regenerates itself.

As secondary weapon take a Shortbow, you will need the mobility in PVE more, than a second ranged burst weapon. Especially due to S/P having no good access to on demand stealth, unlike D/P for the cases when you have to flee quickly and get out of range, then iwll be SB’s infiltrator arrow very helpful to save you butt and to get out of the range of your enemy quickly

DeceiverX.8361:

Unload with more than one activation will out-damage PW with other subsequent re-activations from the might stacking.

On a single hit, the most potent ability without Daredevil is Backstab. Given Daredevil, vault does slightly more damage and can be built to deal substantially more.

Unload is single target thus its damage is capped much sooner than PW. In a multi-target situation, PW has a significantly higher DPS. I think that gets missed a lot when people talk about how powerful Unload is. It is great 1v1… as soon as those numbers escalate (which they often do in PvE and WvW), its total DPS in comparison to multi-target skills drops.

Dare Devil traits and staff are not relevant given the 60 or less discussion.

Backstab is also a bit of a red herring since it cannot be chained. Over time DPS of Backstab is quite poor because of the 3s minimum and single target nature.

Straegen.2938:

DeceiverX.8361:

Unload with more than one activation will out-damage PW with other subsequent re-activations from the might stacking.

On a single hit, the most potent ability without Daredevil is Backstab. Given Daredevil, vault does slightly more damage and can be built to deal substantially more.

Unload is single target thus its damage is capped much sooner than PW. In a multi-target situation, PW has a significantly higher DPS. I think that gets missed a lot when people talk about how powerful Unload is. It is great 1v1… as soon as those numbers escalate (which they often do in PvE and WvW), its total DPS in comparison to multi-target skills drops.

Dare Devil traits and staff are not relevant given the 60 or less discussion.

Backstab is also a bit of a red herring since it cannot be chained. Over time DPS of Backstab is quite poor because of the 3s minimum and single target nature.

Pre-60, there’s very little need to build into mass-cleave. I answered the OP’s question in full and for the future. No reason to oppose providing extra info for the future. Plus the wiki as of when I last looked at Vault, is incorrect in its coefficient, which is why I answered about it.

If the OP has no intention of using anything except one button and never intends to use his AA chain, then yes, D/X isn’t a good idea. But that’s also a terrible idea in general. Otherwise, a D/D backstab build using AA’s will bring competitive burst and the absolute undeniable best DPS per initiative, and features the third-hardest-hitting skill on core thief, and second hardest-hitting single attack on the thief/daredevil in general/hardest-hitting on core, with the highest potential kill rate.

Vault (staff5) is hardest hitting skill

For PvE before Dare Devil, Shotbow (movement) and Sword/Pistol (Pistol Whip). After Dare Devil in PvE, Staff (movement/Vault) and Pistol/Pistol (Unload against dangerous melee bosses). FYI, Invigorating Precision on an S/P build is god mode in PvE.

DeceiverX.8361:

Pre-60, there’s very little need to build into mass-cleave. I answered the OP’s question in full and for the future. No reason to oppose providing extra info for the future. Plus the wiki as of when I last looked at Vault, is incorrect in its coefficient, which is why I answered about it.

Pistol Whip is flat out the hardest hitting ability the thief has. Nothing has a higher DPS before chained attacks. Chained unloads on a single target do more damage thanks to the Might buff but that is easily offset by its horrific AA.

Cleave in PvE is important for clearing mobs, healing and should not be underestimated in PvP modes either. Pistol Whip hits like a truck on multiple targets, evades while it is doing it, opens with a Daze and procs the hell out of IP. Backstab is a good 30% less damage, positional, needs to be primed and is single target. Dagger AA is better but only marginally after the Sword buffs and falls off against more than 2 targets.

Staff surpasses S/P with full AoE, a faster chain, better multipliers and its ability to replace Shortbow for most travel needs. Until Dare Devil, S/P is a clear winner in my book at least in PvE.

Not necessarily. Depends on how you build and what level you are.

Pre-80, at what I believe is around level 30 or so (to have the points for traits and utils), D/D will offer substantially better killing speed without balling massive numbers of mobs since one can spec into CS for HK and crit every stab. The 100% stab crit rate will easily offset the non-crits on the 8 hits from PW, and the combined coefficient will allow typically one kill per cast of CnD + Stab. Dagger AA out-cleaves P/W as well, The only advantage to P/W is the evade frames, which typically aren’t seen as worthwhile since in open-world BP on D/P will normally provide enough negation to avoid taking hits if the defense is needed, and is generally more efficient on negation per initiative.

It’s also worth noting, to clarify my earlier post, that Backstab, in the event of using an OH dagger via CnD’s 5 vuln, now hits equally hard as vault on its own given the vuln bonus.

DeceiverX.8361:

Pre-80, at what I believe is around level 30 or so (to have the points for traits and utils), D/D will offer substantially better killing speed without balling massive numbers of mobs since one can spec into CS for HK and crit every stab. The 100% stab crit rate will easily offset the non-crits on the 8 hits from PW, and the combined coefficient will allow typically one kill per cast of CnD + Stab. Dagger AA out-cleaves P/W as well, The only advantage to P/W is the evade frames, which typically aren’t seen as worthwhile since in open-world BP on D/P will normally provide enough negation to avoid taking hits if the defense is needed, and is generally more efficient on negation per initiative.

Backstab at best has a 3s cooldown and again is single target. Also Dagger does not cleave. Sword out damages dagger significantly once the mobs grow past 2. S/P doesn’t need stealth, doesn’t need to be primed with SA, CnD, BP/HS, etc. Nearly every drop of init is DPS, healing and evasion.

Even prior to IP, it is a solid weapon set in PvE because of those evades. The fact that it comes with condi removal without having to trait is a nice bonus as well.

Any weapon works for the most part but in my opinion S/P with SB early on is a really difficult weapon set to match for versatility and straight up damage. Particularly since it ports from mob to mob and needs no priming.

The initiative cost per damage unit on CnD and Backstab is better than what PW does. PW also has a cast component and long pre/aftercast frames both before and after the stun component and cleave portions on PW. A CnD + Stab is objectively faster single-target damage and D/D itself clears mobs in non-grouped environments faster and is subsequently more efficient in killing since it doesn’t need to ball mobs.

Dagger AA cleaves, and has cleaved for what’s pushing two years. It’s objectively superior to the sword’s cleave/DPS.

The sword has never out-damaged the dagger and still doesn’t. P/W is a nice burst on an easy-to-cast ability. A D/D build is objectively and always superior single target and cleave damage unless you’re only fighting pocket raptors. CnD + backstab does subtantially more damage than P/W in a much shorter period of time, and the rest is fulfilled by blatantly superior AA’s which already out-damage PW. PW’s only gain is damage during immunity frames.

Backstab isn’t hard to land can be delivered faster than PW.

The OP asked for damage potential. The cleanse doesn’t matter, and is mostly a concern for PvP; most monsters pre-80 in PvE do not load up on excessive conditions, and SoA provides ample cleansing with the recent buff + good damage bonuses during its downtime, and the player can still elect to use Shadowstep for an additional cleanse. Until 80 and full party buffs, there is no way to make any build compete with the kill rate on a CS + D/D build due to the early HK crit boost. The base crit modifier of 50% will already mostly push CnD + Stab well-over what the sword is capable of doing. Aside from the very early levels where one doesn’t have access to traits, pre-80/group optimization, there’s just no conceivable argument suggesting S/P is going to out-damage D/D if CS is taken (which is the best source of increasing outgoing damage).

Porting from mob to mob assumes a kill speed that’s at 15s or longer given the nature of IR’s effect duration. That’s an insanely slow kill speed and HS spam covers the same distance at only one more initiative, and is only marginally faster than walking OOC, which given a D/D build, any given mob should die in two or three hits.

I still don’t see how any of this disagrees with what I originally said; Unload is the highest given might, PW is highest baseline coefficient, Backstab tied for highest single hit with vault if CnD is used for vuln prior, which pushes CnD + backstab together into the easily-highest damage output per initiative.

DeceiverX.8361:

The initiative cost per damage unit on CnD and Backstab is better than what PW does.

Again it greatly depends on how stealth is accessed. CnD, 6 init. BP/HS 9 init. Utility is free BUT that can potentially lower DPS and is on a slow cooldown. Taking SA to get Stealth steal also lowers DPS. Pistol Whip 5 init and requires no priming or cooldown unlike Backstab.

DeceiverX.8361:

Dagger AA cleaves, and has cleaved for what’s pushing two years. It’s objectively superior to the sword’s cleave/DPS.

If Dagger cleaves now, they need to update the wiki because at launch it was dual target and I don’t remember seeing it get an upgrade.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Double_Strike

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wild_Strike

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lotus_Strike

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slice_

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slash_

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Strike

DeceiverX.8361:

Backstab isn’t hard to land can be delivered faster than PW. The OP asked for damage potential.

The OP asked for the hardest hitting skill which is still PW particularly against more than one foe. It has a higher coefficient, doesn’t need to be primed, is not positional and frankly costs less init than most Backstabs. It is easier to use, can be chained, procs the hell out of IP, has solid crit DPS without having to take Hidden Killer and it evades the entire time. It is very nearly the perfect PvE attack. PW also doesn’t have a cooldown on a miss or block… admittedly less likely in PvE but still a downside particularly when DPS is considered.

Cleave on sword was always 3 targets.

On your own links look down at the changes log. In 2014 those dagger attacks now hit two targets. Prior to that dagger was single target with those same attacks.

babazhook.6805:

Cleave on sword was always 3 targets.

On your own links look down at the changes log. In 2014 those dagger attacks now hit two targets. Prior to that dagger was single target with those same attacks.

That is what I said. Backstab is single target and Dagger AA is two targets. Sword AA and PW is three targets. If there is more than 1 target PW beats Backstab without question. If there are more than two targets, Sword AA beats dagger without question.

Interestingly Dagger AA beats Backstab if there is more than one target. Backstab is quite literally only strong against a single target when flanking. Even then it is only good every 3s. In contrast, PW has consistent DPS all the time and scales better. It is completely self contained needing no extra traits to insure a crit, doesn’t need any special positioning and needs no setup. It is also the hardest hitting single thief ability at least in a vacuum.

Now there are situations where X is going to better than Y but for the most part PW is a crazy good PvE attack paired with Invigorating Precision.