Guild Wars 2

Not really sure what I’m doing wrong. I have a build with 2400 power, 40% crit, and 207% crit damage and its just been frustrating. Trying to ambush another Thief ends with them simply stealing after my initial hit (which is up to 7000 on average) but then I get hit for 10k on a returning backstab.

Do my stats suck? Does food and utility make THAT much of a difference? (I’m not running food for testing out these builds)

Is there a good post-june video you guys can recommend to watch? I seem to have more luck running a condi-venoms build.

Hey.

What build are you running?

Try putting it as accurate as possible here:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

It’s easier for people to come with suggestions when we see what we have to work with ^^

I would say that your power is a little on the low-side.
I’m running around the 3k-mark.

But fill your build out, or write it up here.

if you have 2400 power w/o any food/oil and www stacks that isn’t bad.
Anyway remember power>crit.chance>crit.damage

Pretty much this, with like 4% more crit chance:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAoYlsMhSnY3Tw6Jw/EHEF1OLHtAgXBJwE0ThQIMB-TVDBwAGVisXHgy9Hg8AAUYWBwJAAn6OZVKkSLASlVJMRNRJoOVCCAgAczAAtZAA-w

Getting completely creamed in WvW 1 on 1’s. Maybe not evading enough, used to playing Necro.

Lose Acrobatics.

Trade acrobatics for trickery. The last minor trait will increase your damage, and if you pick up Thrill of the Crime, Bountiful Theft, and Sleight of Hand, your steal becomes both an offensive and defensive tool to interrupt and gain vigor. The fury, might and swiftness will help too.

So, if I lose Acrobatics I HAVE to switch CS for DA, and this basically turns me into the typical D/P Meta build.

Basically, I see two important keys to an engagement in WvW with dagger. Either I need Mug so that I can trigger Basilisk Venom so that I can stab my target… OR I need the Acrobatics 50% speed boost in stealth, so that I can easily catch up to targets.

I didn’t consider the damage difference that Trickery brings along.

EDIT:
Has anyone tried this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAoYlsMhSnY3Tw6Jw/EHwE1OQXuUwHGnRboTgAIDA-TVDBwAGVisXHgy9Hg8AAUYWBwJAAn6OZVKkSLASlVJMRNRJoOVCCAgAczAAtZAA-w

Seems to have most the damage multipliers.

Well, you can swap smokescreen for Blinding Powder, then if pwople start to run, you can swap to SB and keep pinging them for sustained damage, then blinding powder + SB stealth attack for the immobilize, then engage again with daggers. Devourer venom is also still good, so you can engage with that on SB, infiltrator’s shot to them, swap to daggers, CnD/BS, and re-engage with steal/CnD if they start moving away for another BS. You can keep smokescreen also and blast it as well. You don’t need to swap in DA, but admittedly, it would be better. Keep in mind that while you don’t have the run speed teait, you do have 10 seconds of swiftness that you didn’t before. Also, if you build a little more tanky you can just go DA, CS, and Trick and use use inf sig, shadowstep, and SR with Daggers so you have more engages.

Edit:Saw your edit, right now I use DA CS T (but with S/D). It’s fun, I’d recommend at least giving it a try.

You don’t have to do anything but acrobatics is pretty rubbish in all regards.DA and Trickery offer way better options.Improvisation for example is the best thing to come out of this whole post-patch mess as far as I’m concerned.

Depending on your build your talking a good chance of instant trait, utility and even elite skill recharge with twice the steal skill which if targeted properly is free stealth, etc, etc.

Btw CnD into Steal will trigger both your venom and the stealth for BS.

I use Acrobatics but I tend to get right into and around large fights as well as roam solo or hooking up with small groups. If you’re primarily roaming then you might want to use that standard build or at least start there and simmer it down as you play. DA,CS,Trick had little fat on it when I’d have to run down single targets or fell into small group fights, you’re mostly sniping key targets anyway roaming so you might as well make it quick.

What kind of Backstab crits should I be expecting with my stats? Because I feel like mine are way too low.

From mainly an sPvP perspective since the patch, backstabs can hit for anywhere from 5-10k depending on your exact build if you are not using full offensive zerker but instead maurader. Going all in on a zerker build, you can get up to around 16k. This is with DA/CS/T.

2490×1030×2.4×2.18×1.15(LA)×1.1(FS)×1.1(EW) ÷ (2500)=7500ish damage with your particular DA/CS/T setup. More or less depending on the opponent’s armor calue (I used 2500 as the armor value).

Wait, all of those damage multipliers are multiplicative on top of each other? What about the signet that gives you an extra 15%, is that also multiplicative?

Also, what are those 2.14 and 2.18 values you are multiplying by? One of them is Crit Damage, right?

Valvador.4291:

Wait, all of those damage multipliers are multiplicative on top of each other? What about the signet that gives you an extra 15%, is that also multiplicative?

Also, what are those 2.14 and 2.18 values you are multiplying by? One of them is Crit Damage, right?

Yes, they’re multiplicative. 2.14 should actually be 2.4, I’ll fix it (that’s what I get for doing it from my phone). That’s the weapon skill coefficient. Backstab has a 2.4. Heartseeker has 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0 at the different levels.

Yes, damage multipliers are multiplicative. It’s statistically better to get more, smaller modifiers than one big one, which is why Ferocity as a stat functions poorly overall unless paired heavily with modifiers.

This is why many misinformed people fail to understand why backstab can hit so hard despite the damage of the skill itself not being very high; the thief has access to more damage modifiers when built for damage than every other class in the game, and most of these modifiers are nothing to sneeze at.

If OP played deadly arts or even trickery, his stabs would be substantially higher. If playing both, expect 10k’s fairly easy, food buffs and other misc modifiers, much higher.

Edit: In one given attack, Rangers offer the highest damage modifiers in the game due to Attack of Opportunity and the new Remorseless.

Valvador.4291:

So, if I lose Acrobatics I HAVE to switch CS for DA, and this basically turns me into the typical D/P Meta build.

Basically, I see two important keys to an engagement in WvW with dagger. Either I need Mug so that I can trigger Basilisk Venom so that I can stab my target… OR I need the Acrobatics 50% speed boost in stealth, so that I can easily catch up to targets.

I didn’t consider the damage difference that Trickery brings along.

EDIT:
Has anyone tried this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAoYlsMhSnY3Tw6Jw/EHwE1OQXuUwHGnRboTgAIDA-TVDBwAGVisXHgy9Hg8AAUYWBwJAAn6OZVKkSLASlVJMRNRJoOVCCAgAczAAtZAA-w

Seems to have most the damage multipliers.

No u dont have to switch CS to DA. Specially if u run SA.

I’m just used to most MMO’s making % modifiers additive, so that you don’t end up with this exact problem, where each modifier makes the last modifier even better. It’s usually a balance decision, so I didn’t even factor that in.

I play either S/D (DA/ACR/TR or DA/CS/TR) or D/P with DA/CS/TR.
I don’t really have issues on D/P. A lot of it boils down to the approach of a fight.
Facing someone bursty? Try to be more aggressive → bursty than they are. Facing something tanky? Kite more, bait out key skills and dodges before bursting in.
People who run SA in WvW solo roam should really just stop playing thief. It was like that pre-patch and even more so post-patch. It’s not like the 300-650 health regen per pulse in stealth is going to last aganst constant pressure by 1-2k+ auto attacks.

What do you guys do for Condition clearing without SA?

Valvador.4291:

What do you guys do for Condition clearing without SA?

Usually I use Shadowstep and Signet of Agility for clears, but really only worry about it if I have poison on me. Also, as stated, usually I use S/D now so it comes with a single condi clear on it. I will admit condi necros are a nightmare sometimes because of the condition dump, but as long as there’s not too many different types, I just treat condis as regular damage.

Another way to address condis without SA is to run a shortbow with cleansing/purity, or cleansing/generosity, or similar. It’s not perfect but it is one more thing in the toolbox.

Valvador.4291:

What do you guys do for Condition clearing without SA?

Spam alternate weapon sword 2 + Trickster/withdraw + don’t get hit. An unfortunate sacrifice, but a necessity if playing D/x. Shortbow is amazing, but condi cleansing is more important.

That and just run from condi builds as a whole if you start losing.

Valvador.4291:

What do you guys do for Condition clearing without SA?

I’m one of the few people running scorpion wire/trickery to clear condi’s as well. You don’t need scorpion wire to hit anything for it to cleanse a condi. As long as it fires away (so you have to face them for it to work).

Been using it for a few weeks and I’m getting much better in making it work besides condi clearing. Just don’t expect it to pull him to you. Use it as a condi clear first, a low cooldown interrupt second, and if it pulls, lucky you.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Been using [Scorpion Wire] for a few weeks and I’m getting much better in making it work besides condi clearing. Just don’t expect it to pull him to you. Use it as a condi clear first, a low cooldown interrupt second, and if it pulls, lucky you.

That’s a good idea.

Let me put it another way though: a skill is useful for an effect that was originally not intended (the condi clearing), and useful for what was originally intended as a side effect (the interrupt), but not at all useful for its original purpose.

Yeah, I think that’s another tell-tale sign of the class needing some dev attention.

Or to be sarcastic: scorpion wire is too RNG, time to remove it!

bloodymarx.9052:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Been using [Scorpion Wire] for a few weeks and I’m getting much better in making it work besides condi clearing. Just don’t expect it to pull him to you. Use it as a condi clear first, a low cooldown interrupt second, and if it pulls, lucky you.

That’s a good idea.

Let me put it another way though: a skill is useful for an effect that was originally not intended (the condi clearing), and useful for what was originally intended as a side effect (the interrupt), but not at all useful for its original purpose.

Yeah, I think that’s another tell-tale sign of the class needing some dev attention.

Or to be sarcastic: scorpion wire is too RNG, time to remove it!

I’m not saying it’s a good skill on it’s own, it’s terrible. But as a cheap condi clear when running withdraw/trickery, well it works for me during stronghold/conquest. It seems most people don’t know its telegraphed animation as well (obv because no one ever uses it) when using in cqb so they don’t even bother dodging it.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

bloodymarx.9052:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Been using [Scorpion Wire] for a few weeks and I’m getting much better in making it work besides condi clearing. Just don’t expect it to pull him to you. Use it as a condi clear first, a low cooldown interrupt second, and if it pulls, lucky you.

That’s a good idea.

Let me put it another way though: a skill is useful for an effect that was originally not intended (the condi clearing), and useful for what was originally intended as a side effect (the interrupt), but not at all useful for its original purpose.

Yeah, I think that’s another tell-tale sign of the class needing some dev attention.

Or to be sarcastic: scorpion wire is too RNG, time to remove it!

I’m not saying it’s a good skill on it’s own, it’s terrible. But as a cheap condi clear when running withdraw/trickery, well it works for me during stronghold/conquest. It seems most people don’t know it’s telegraphed animation as well (obv because no one ever uses it) when using in cqb so they don’t even bother dodging it.

Or if they do recognize it they expect it to be obstructed or just miss by sidestepping. :P

incase you are interested in DD i have a post on it https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Viable-Strong-Allrounder-D-D-build/first#post5300042
that might help you out, but dd isn’t what it used to be, sadly

Valvador.4291:

Not really sure what I’m doing wrong. I have a build with 2400 power, 40% crit, and 207% crit damage and its just been frustrating. Trying to ambush another Thief ends with them simply stealing after my initial hit (which is up to 7000 on average) but then I get hit for 10k on a returning backstab.

Do my stats suck? Does food and utility make THAT much of a difference? (I’m not running food for testing out these builds)

Is there a good post-june video you guys can recommend to watch? I seem to have more luck running a condi-venoms build.

I am new to thief (well used it for long time for farming in SW but recently started to play with it in WvW) and I have had the same issues as you do and after lots of testing and gold spent on various armors sets and runes and trinkets I run D/P now ( use Dragon’s Breath Buns food and Sharpening stones as well as Furious Maintenance oil..).

I wear Exotics only (SR of Vampirism, sigil of cleansing on SB and Sigil of Energy, Accuracy & Air on D/P set), toughness around 2200, hp around 15k , build is CS/DA/Trickery (trickery traited for condi. clean), I use No Quarter and in attachment you can see stats after and during fight, it crits A LOT, I don’t depend on backstab with this build. I ran SA and Acro D/P builds and found them all to be well…impotent I’d drop players down to 20-25% and then they would either escape or would kill me in return. Also for me It works well now with D/D as a second set and for giggles even with P/D as a second set because most of players will for a sec think you are a condi thief
Lack of mobility is the only problem now and I use Signet of Shadows but change it to Signet of Agility if I decide to camp an area. Other skills, Withdraw for healing, Blinding Powder, Roll for Initiative and DS elite most of the time.

You could try tanky, sort of relaxing, build relying on backstab ( It’s my alternative set) and see if it works for you,full Berserker armor, all soldier trinkets with Ruby , Wurm Rune set, SA/Trickery/Critical Strikes build with Hidden Killer trait and foods that increase precision and ferocity. Here is recent video of a guy who plays with it.

Don’t run full berserk, there is no sense in it, unless you want to die fast
valk is way better than zerk, use furios maintanance oil with it and your crit damage will go skyrocket
just dont go full zerk ^^

the problem is smoke screen. Not only this skill is too situational, but there are other skill that will be generally more beneficial than that one.

This same logic also applies to acrobatics. If you are using D/D, you want to focus on your goal : remaining stealthed at all cost and bursting.

The acrobatics tree is for those who do need to be constantly invisible (S/D) and those who expect to get caught.

Just think about it, if you are invisible, you don’t get hit. period. so need to trait to improve your dodging, or stun breaking, and all this none sense.

Stick to the goal of D/D and you’ll understand why acrobatics isn’t worth it.

GLHF

Kocoff.7582:

the problem is smoke screen. Not only this skill is too situational, but there are other skill that will be generally more beneficial than that one.

This same logic also applies to acrobatics. If you are using D/D, you want to focus on your goal : remaining stealthed at all cost and bursting.

The acrobatics tree is for those who do need to be constantly invisible (S/D) and those who expect to get caught.

Just think about it, if you are invisible, you don’t get hit. period. so need to trait to improve your dodging, or stun breaking, and all this none sense.

Stick to the goal of D/D and you’ll understand why acrobatics isn’t worth it.

GLHF

I run Acro on my dd build, i do that because as dd you mostly are right in the enemies faces, meaning you will always walk through some random CC
the stunbreaks have saved me several times

but i need to mention, i don’t focus on 1v1, i play my build as an allround viable build, meaning i also engage in a 1v4 ish fight
for 1v1 fights take trickery

but that’s just my 2 cents