Guild Wars 2

Hello all,

I mainly play a thief but I don’t understand the “balancing” strategy of the class.

I think [Heartseeker] is still a bit over the top : too much damage for an autotarget/leap skill.
I think it would be better to tone down the damage of the skill before 50% health to prevent the 2222 spam to death.
As a finisher skill, it would make sense that the skill do very few damage before 50% but still maintain its current scaling with HP (2 stages, >50% and >25% HP).

I find mandatory to keep the leap portion of the skill, because it’s a useful gap-closer or combo-builder for D/D or D/P builds.

I really feel ashamed by HS spammers, it can be countered but still, I find this skill too powerful for a 3 ini skill : too rewarding for poor gameplay/skill.

I don’t understand why nerfing situational/high-ini/high-cd mechanics and still promoting HS spam : it really increase the hatred towards thief, contributing to make it look like a spamming low skill class.

I think anet wants thieves to really be a rougey class that can’t do anything beyond stealthing and spiking.

HS damage before 50% is really low you would be better AA f you 222222 and still kill someone its prob a bot or a really new player.
It costs 3 initiative and has lower damage before 50% than Auto chain that costs nothing so… nah its not to powerful
HS was already nerfed over the year thats why noone… or i mean almost noone complain about it anymore.

they can nerf HS damage before 50% HP to 0 but people will continue to cry “HS spamming is OP” anyway

increase to 4-5 initiative. Reduce range to 3-450. What is it now 600 I think?

Aquin.3192:

increase to 4-5 initiative. Reduce range to 3-450. What is it now 600 I think?

Its range is already 450.

It’s multipliers are:

1.0>50%
50%>1.5>25%
2.0<25%

To put it in perspective, LS also has a multiplier of 1.5 and steals a boon for 2 initiative. Sword auto has a multiplier of 1.3 on the last attack. Changes really don’t need to be made.

If you get killed by a thief that just spams heartseeker, you’re bad and you deserve to die.
Heartseeker does barely noticable damage when the target is over 50% hp.

You said yourself that Heartseeker spam can be countered, so why nerf an already highly telegraphed and counterable skill? It doesn’t need a rework, it’s perfectly balanced as it is.

Do you mainly play thief against dummies? …. I’m sure you haven’t 1v1’d any decent player (warrior, ranger), you’d understand the full extent of what position the thief is in. Heartseeker spam gets you nowhere. It only works against people who don’t know to dodge etc.

I play S/D, 10/30/0/0/30 with berserker amulet, so I’m pretty much a piece of glass running around with 14k health and 1980 armor.

And I ran into a thief while going to an enemy capture point, and I could pretty much read on him what he will do, spam heartseeker. I ignored him and continued running, with him spamming heartseeker in my back. Eventually he got me to 6k health after 4 heartseekers which is nearly his whole initiative pool, I healed up and attacked him and got him low quickly, meaning he was really glassy.

If you can ignore and tank someone spamming a skill with one of the glassier setups until the resource for the skill is empty, while playing the glassiest medium setup, how can that skill be overpowered? Should be buffed above 50% with some trait imo, since all bad thieves needs something to carry them, like all classes have their things to carry them.

i think it’s fine as it is now.

First of all, let’s get some fact straight :

• HS vs Auto-attack : Base coeff for HS is 1.0 whereas dual-strike has a 0.27*2 = 0.56 coeff
  Moreover, auto-chain does not leap and has a really narrow attack angle.
  Sword auto-shot is slower, and does not track your target (and the 2 first attack have a coeff of 0.8)
• LS is a chain skill : you must use FS before to gain a small window to use LS => comparing a 5-ini skill chain to a 3-ini one is perfectly irrelevant (and BTW, i am really disappointed by LS nerf from 2 to 1 buff)

• @Ghostwolf : your opponent had a really bad build .
  When I was roaming, using the old 25/30/0/0/15 build, I could easily reach 3k+ crit with HS above 50% HP on glass ennemy.
  Even with my actual build (2600 armor) I would not let a thief spam HS on me, that’s too dangerous.
  For example, see the screen below, taken earlier this week on my Elem (2670 Armor)
  And yeah, he killed me using HS spam, but the tremendous lag this day prevented me from reacting quickly enough.
  If he can reach 3k+ on a target with 2600+ armor, how much would he do against your build with 1980 ? Would you let him spam HS like you did ? I don’t think so.

• I don’t understand your reluctance with my proposal : if nobody use HS above 50% because it’s so inefficient, how would a small nerf of its coeff (like 0.7 instead of 1.0) affect you ?

• Keep in mind that I’m not satisfied with the thief in his current state, but this is not a reason to tolerate facerolling or skills over the top : we are no warriors.

Yggdrasil.7940:

• I don’t understand your reluctance with my proposal : if nobody use HS above 50% because it’s so inefficient, how would a small nerf of its coeff (like 0.7 instead of 1.0) affect you ?

You pretty much answered yourself there, spamming heartseeker is inefficient and an initiative sink. The thief could have done the same amount of damage by using
CnD>Backstab(>steal)>heartseeker, while at the same time maintaining high initiative as a reward. Counter the HS spammer and he’s puinished. If he got allowed to freely pull off 4 heartseekers due to lag, then it’s the lag you should blame. And HS is counterable; stun, knockdown, daze, immobilize, dodge, block, blind, chill and cripple for distance reduction.

I just don’t promote anymore nerfs that affects D/D.

For D/D it’s the main gap closer, reducing the damage by another 30% after the 20% last year, reduces overall damage sources for the set even more.
With all other classes receiving buffs it’s becoming harder and harder to deal damage to enemies, so I don’t see any room for more ways to nerf thief damage, and thief damage wont ever receive a buff since there is no room for that either.

14 September 2012
Heartseeker: Reduced damage of the 100%-50% threshold by 20%.
November 15, 2012
Dancing Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 50%.
Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.
April 30, 2013
Mug trait: Can no longer critically hit.

I agree that it can be frustraiting when a heartseeker spammer is at the right place at the right time. But all classes have elements of facerolling. On a LB ranger you can for instance just fist your 5 buttons instead of pressing one repeatedly, and when every skill is on CD, you have killed the player if he didn’t have any endurance or LoS breaking terrain during the keyboard smashing. It’s just something to accept, that every noob can’t be outplayed at anytime.

really ? 5 heartseekers in a row ? 3.75 seconds without any reaction ? lol

btw 0.27*2 = 0.54, not 0.56

Daendur.2357:

really ? 5 heartseekers in a row ? 3.75 seconds without any reaction ? lol

btw 0.27*2 = 0.54, not 0.56

lol I am not standing still when I see a thief doing his leapy thing at me. let alone 5 times.

HS damage on targets over 50% is low already, no nerf required.

try to kill Ghostwolf or any other decent player, any class spamming HS you wont be able.
If you do its cause the opponent was crap.
with your logic is the same thing as… Hey nerf 100B pvp cause i can stun someone and kill them with only that! if they are bad they wont stunbreak and bamm dead! so OP!!! NERF!… not.

Daendur.2357:

really ? 5 heartseekers in a row ? 3.75 seconds without any reaction ? lol

btw 0.27*2 = 0.54, not 0.56

In fact, my tests show a coeff of 0.2774 i.e 0.28 for this skill. And 0.28*2 = 0.56 (Sorry for misleading rounding)

And I guess he was under haste when spamming, coupled with the initial stun from BV, it was really quick. Anyway, the lag was horrendous, it took like 4 sec to switch attunement, I never ever have experimented such a lagfest.

@Ghostwolf : thank your for your constructive feedback. I don’t play D/D anymore, this set is lackluster because of the successive nerfs you mention. Instead, I play D/P with S/D as a switch.

I think I would have gladly died to the CnD->BS->HS combo evoked, as it involves at least good positioning/awareness.
I usually don’t die to HS spammers, as they tend to spoil their ini leaving them useless.
However, I still consider HS could be slightly toned down, for the >50HP% stage only, but that’s my opinion and I can accept that it’s not a top priority on the “OP skill” list.

I agree that it can be frustraiting when a heartseeker spammer is at the right place at the right time. But all classes have elements of facerolling. […..] It’s just something to accept, that every noob can’t be outplayed at anytime.

This is sadly true, I must cope with that, for the greater good, but still, clueless noob player downing me tend to drive me up the wall.

@OP. This whole post makes me lol. It is a really great post for October 2012.

I haven’t heard anyone complaining about HS in awhile? Why? Because spamming it doesn’t work against anyone except the worst of players anymore.

I don’t do not get why you want to take a fairly weak class at this point and make it even worse.

Yggdrasil.7940:

Daendur.2357:

really ? 5 heartseekers in a row ? 3.75 seconds without any reaction ? lol

btw 0.27*2 = 0.54, not 0.56

In fact, my tests show a coeff of 0.2774 i.e 0.28 for this skill. And 0.28*2 = 0.56 (Sorry for misleading rounding)

And I guess he was under haste when spamming, coupled with the initial stun from BV, it was really quick. Anyway, the lag was horrendous, it took like 4 sec to switch attunement, I never ever have experimented such a lagfest.

@Ghostwolf : thank your for your constructive feedback. I don’t play D/D anymore, this set is lackluster because of the successive nerfs you mention. Instead, I play D/P with S/D as a switch.

I think I would have gladly died to the CnD->BS->HS combo evoked, as it involves at least good positioning/awareness.
I usually don’t die to HS spammers, as they tend to spoil their ini leaving them useless.
However, I still consider HS could be slightly toned down, for the >50HP% stage only, but that’s my opinion and I can accept that it’s not a top priority on the “OP skill” list.

I agree that it can be frustraiting when a heartseeker spammer is at the right place at the right time. But all classes have elements of facerolling. […..] It’s just something to accept, that every noob can’t be outplayed at anytime.

This is sadly true, I must cope with that, for the greater good, but still, clueless noob player downing me tend to drive me up the wall.

From what you said you should blame the lag not the HS spam… with the lag you say u had the thief could have killed you using any king of attacks…..
If the lag wasnt the problem then you need to rework you game play cause a thief spam HS with haste is the dumbest thieng ever since he will have zero endurance wich means u just need to lightning flash away or stone armor w/e and kill him he wont even be able to dodge your burst

style.6173:

@OP. This whole post makes me lol. It is a really great post for October 2012.

I haven’t heard anyone complaining about HS in awhile? Why? Because spamming it doesn’t work against anyone except the worst of players anymore.

I don’t do not get why you want to take a fairly weak class at this point and make it even worse.

First of all, the Op deservers the Right to express his/her experience concerning thief Heartseeker in need of rework.

Second of all, insulting and belittling him/her (the OP) because of his/her encounterable experience with a spammable thief doesn’t make him/her ’the worst of palyers"

Have you ever encountered a spammable hertseeker thief?

Of course! you have, inluding every thieves here as well; i die by them all the time.

So would you call them or yourself “a worst player”?

Of course not!

Wouldn’t you say it depends on the circumstance?

Most deffinently; as the saying goes, ’there is are no reasons without circumstances"

Perhaps the Op was distracted by something or someone in the moment?
Perhaps the OP was caught of guard in the moment?
Perhaps the Op wasn’t prepared in the moment?
Or Perhaps the OP underistimated his/her opponent in the moment?
Or Perhaps the Op Pride got in the way?

-Perhaps million more cirmunstances……

So there,

I encourage you to look at the circumstances before lashing out insults and belittlings.

(Anything that is ‘a wake up call’ concerning this class, deserves the most respect, honesty, understanding, and humility).

Heartseeker is fine. Repeated heartseeker is ugly. Mechanics changes need to address the spamming of the skill rather than the damage, mobility, or anything else.

Burnfall.9573:

style.6173:

@OP. This whole post makes me lol. It is a really great post for October 2012.

I haven’t heard anyone complaining about HS in awhile? Why? Because spamming it doesn’t work against anyone except the worst of players anymore.

I don’t do not get why you want to take a fairly weak class at this point and make it even worse.

First of all, the Op deservers the Right to express his/her experience concerning thief Heartseeker in need of rework.

Second of all, insulting and belittling him/her (the OP) because of his/her encounterable experience with a spammable thief doesn’t make him/her ’the worst of palyers"

Have you ever encountered a spammable hertseeker thief?

Of course! you have, inluding every thieves here as well; i die by them all the time.

So would you call them or yourself “a worst player”?

Of course not!

Wouldn’t you say it depends on the circumstance?

Most deffinently; as the saying goes, ’there is are no reasons without circumstances"

Perhaps the Op was distracted by something or someone in the moment?
Perhaps the OP was caught of guard in the moment?
Perhaps the Op wasn’t prepared in the moment?
Or Perhaps the OP underistimated his/her opponent in the moment?
Or Perhaps the Op Pride got in the way?

-Perhaps million more cirmunstances……

So there,

I encourage you to look at the circumstances before lashing out insults and belittlings.

(Anything that is ‘a wake up call’ concerning this class, deserves the most respect, honesty, understanding, and humility).

I never understood why you are always on this forum. Do you just come here and whine cause you don’t know how to play against thieves?

Edit: Reading through your past posts make me laugh…. 80% of it is complaining about how thieves are op LOL.

Seazen.7415:

I never understood why you are always on this forum. Do you just come here and whine cause you don’t know how to play against thieves?

Some people… just like to watch the world Burn(fall).

Burnfall.9573:

Of course! you have, inluding every thieves here as well; i die by them all the time.

How I wish I was one of those thieves to find him.

Very funny guys.

My mission is to see this class fully balanced so guild wars 2 can succeed.

That’s all i want.

I’m sure you guys want guild wars 2 to succeed as well, so encourage Arena.net to fix this class a.s.a.p to make it happen.

Burnfall.9573:

Very funny guys.

My mission is to see this class fully balanced so guild wars 2 can succeed.

That’s all i want.

I’m sure you guys want guild wars 2 to succeed as well, so encourage Arena.net to fix this class a.s.a.p to make it happen.

I think this is your most honest post yet. +1

22222 Spamming newer works for me, unless I’m fighting against light/medium armor zerker.

Are you serious? Hs spam is terrible. It’s just a common joke around thief players that it would be op, it of course really isn’t. The damage isn’t enough against tanks and other glass cannons will just counter attack. Sure, it can be sometimes okish to spam hs after a succesful mug combo, especially if they panic, but that’s about it.
Well sometimes, due to skill stacking mechanics, double tapping hs is allright if your foe is about to stealth and has low hp.

n fact, my tests show a coeff of 0.2774 i.e 0.28 for this skill. And 0.28*2 = 0.56 (Sorry for misleading rounding)

And I guess he was under haste when spamming, coupled with the initial stun from BV, it was really quick. Anyway, the lag was horrendous, it took like 4 sec to switch attunement, I never ever have experimented such a lagfest.

Sounds like the common double speed bug that is very often encountered in WvW.