Guild Wars 2

Hi,

First time on this forum. It had a bit of a reputation which made me shy away from it, but I put my big person pants on to see if maybe you guys can help me out. This is for wvw havoc/roaming.

bit of an intro, but you can skip to the next post if you want.

I play a mesmer power/shatter build with another mesmer friend who either plays a PU build (that one you guys seem to hate, sorry (i’m not sorry…)) or a power phantasm build. I can dish out a lot of damage but can’t take much, so he sorta sustains the fight when I need to jump out and heal. I am extremely squishy (record for my quickest death was 3 attacks – we’ll see if we can get it to 2!) and extremely offensive (to a fault). Honestly I feel like I am channeling a thief mentality when playing.

If you ever have seen an Osicat shatter build or a Vash shatter build, it plays a similar style, although I am more recklessly offensively, since I have a party member (sorry buddy XD). Look it up on youtube if you’d like a reference.

build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAscRlwzipXUzmGb9ICqHaH49dkK0alewbXotB-j0BBYfCiEEgkIBKnrIaslhFRjVXDT5iIqWGAmtA-w

- Note: I might change out to veil (stealth skill) instead of arcane thievery (my only source of condition removal), depending on how the day is going (read – how many zergs have wiped me so far?).

Ok, on to the meat and potatoes of the problem.

I literally cannot figure out what to do against those D/D thieves that are pure glass. Every other thief style I can deal with (mostly by running away, if they are good – lol). D/P thieves also cause problems, but I’m not at a complete loss with them as I am with D/D.

If a D/D thief comes along, but he isn’t pure glass, I can generally handle myself since I do have back-up from my party, but those glassy thieves that hit outta stealth, disappear, and then HS me to death, I have no clue.

My max HP is generally 18-20k, depending on my wvw buffs. I will describe a typical encounter.

A thief will initiate a fight with a basilisk venom/backstab combo. The initial hit will be roughly 10k HP. I will hit my distortion (F4 skill – 1 sec invulnerable) to mitigate the rest of the damage he is dealing. I will then dodge. The thief will re-initiate with heartseeker and hit for 2-6k HP. I’ve never been able to avoid this second hit, but this might be where I could up my survivability. I will hit decoy, to stealth and blink (teleport) away since generally the thief will be spamming 1 around where I disappeared. I will heal in stealth so I should be around 1/2 health after this. At this point, since I stealthed, the thief will have stealthed as well. I de-stealth, and sit nervously…. I will trigger my evade on sword, blurred frenzy, in hopes to avoid another backstab. Generally, nothing comes of this, and I just wasted a skill. Thief either reappears, or re-initiates with a HS. Probably hits, or I might have gotten a block out with my offhand sword. At this point, all evades/blocks are gone (I’m pretty sure I wasted my second dodge like a kitten somewhere).This is generally followed with a barrage of HS to down me the rest of the way. Should only take 2-3 to take me down. It is also my understanding that if I’m below 50% health, HS damage increases? In which case I’ve been hit with an HS for 8-10k…

Skills I have that are not on CD:
- sword phantasm (need a target to summon)
- illusionary leap (needs a target)
- arcane thievery (remove conditions/steal boons – not helpful) or veil (2 seconds stealth, does not stack. Could run over it again for 2 more when I reappear)
- all GS sword skills (all offensive, 3 require targets, 1 is a push which could be useful?)
- mass invisibility (however charge time is extremely long and leaves me vulnerable to HS barrage).
- offensive F1 and F2 traits (F1 is the power shatter that I use for burst, F2 is for condi shatter, which I am not specced for so kinda useless)
- defensive F3 daze shatter (1 sec daze for each clone, generally I will have maaaybe 1 clone out, otherwise the shatter effect would just be from me)
- I should have another F4 skill, since I traited it to recharge at 50% health

Things to keep in mind:
I am pure offense, so it is kill or be killed for my build, and generally the way to take pressure off of me is to apply my own. My attacks are linked to my clones/phantasm. I can, at most, get out 2 clones from dodges (which leaves me vulnerable), but I cannot summon any phantasms/clones on an invisible opponent. I have no aoe’s to protect myself. Finally, my friend is in the same boat, and can’t help out much with an invisible opponent.

Now I realize my build/class is weak against thieves, but I’m not looking for changes to builds or rerolling. This might be a case where there is nothing I can do, but running away/avoiding fights is completely dependent on the thief, and most times, they want to fight.

Also, I have no idea what their builds look like, so if anyone can link a build, that would be awesome!

Thanks!

There are major L2P issues here.

1st wasting your F4
2nd wasting your Blurred Frenzy
3rd no blindness
4th Blink —really?
5th off-hand sword —really?

L2P advice:
1st only use F1 – low CD and stacks confusion – use often
2nd Blurred Frenzy only a Heartseeker – if you insist on using a sword main-hand, but use a torch off-hand
3rd you need blindness – obvious reasons
4th remove Blink and pick up Mirror Images – your build requires more clones and MM is a stun breaker
5th dump the off-hand sword, get a torch for blindness or just pick up a staff if you really want to be highly offensive plus you get Chaos Armor for regen and blindness.

Other preference:
I’d use Null Field over Arcane Thievery. Arcane Thievery is only good in PvE against bosses who stacks boon. In WvW, you’re better off with Null Field.

I like your build — I think I’ll use it for my Mesmer with some tweaking — you just need to pickup the right skills and not waste them. Your build is actually the kind I hate the most as a Thief, so please use it correctly.

18-20k and that’s considered power build hps?

I consider my build power with some survivability and i hit 15k hps….

phaeris.7604:

18-20k and that’s considered power build hps?

I consider my build power with some survivability and i hit 15k hps….

That’s the difference in Thief and Mesmer hp, phaeris. My Thief tends to run ~15k hp, and I’ve got her tricked out in a mix of Knight/Zerker/Valkyrie gear with a Celestial amulet. OTOH, even as a non-SA build, her Armor’s 2700. /shrug
By comparison, I usually run my Mesmer with Rampager weapons, Soldier/Knight (power build) or Rabid (condi) armor, and Celestial trinkets. He typically hits 18-19k health.

Now, as far as countering Thieves, Dammerung: As with Mesmers, a lot of the fight comes down to two things: timing and position. Both classes thrive on controlling these aspects, and throwing the enemy off of their game.
Your job, then, is simple: remove the Thief’s advantage. Especially as a 10/30/0/0/30, you cannot win that scrap on the Thief’s terms, his DPS from sneak attacks will shred you.
You see him vanish, assume a 3-4 sec delay before the attack. Retain your own mobility (never stay still fighting these guys!), then defend or interrupt. Also, set your illusions on said Thief as soon as they’re visible, since any AI “pet” isn’t fooled by stealth-trickery. Movement-imparing abilities are also good to use, since you do not want a Thief to be mobile. Although, you also want to be wary of Cloak and Dagger, if you’re fighting a ?/D build, they can -and will- CnD off of clones.

Here’s a couple things that may make a big difference:

First of all, with any D/D thief, their main way of stealthing is through hitting you with their Cloak and Dagger melee attack. If you dodge this attack, blind it, block it, etc., they will lose the initiative and will not stealth. This will give them 3-4 seconds of stealth (depending on the spec). Most WvW thieves will have the talent that gives them 4 seconds.

When a thief hits you with CnD, they will do one of 3 things: 1) they will backstab immediately for quick burst, 2) they will wait until the stealth is almost over to benefit from health regen while stealth or simply to get into position, or 3) they will wait until the stealth ends and will CnD as soon as the stealth is over (to prevent getting revealed debuff) then will backstab immediately.

The second and third option pretty much mean that when you get hit with CnD, you can count to about 3, then dodge. If you time this right, you will dodge either their backstab and their stealth will run out or they will miss CnD and lose initiative. This can easily make or break a fight.

If a thief is facing you, then they will usually CnD, then wait to get behind you before backstabbing. Because of this, you can generally rely on using this dodge method when a thief cloaks while facing you. If they backstab immediately, they won’t hit very hard.

Another big thing is watching for when a thief uses Shadow’s Refuge. This is the giant red circle that stealths them. You should always, always save your Greatsword knockback for this and as soon as you see a thief use this ability, use your knockback into this circle before the edges disappear. This is because the thief must remain in that circle until the edges disappear to maintain the stealth. If they go outside that circle before the edges disappear, they will lose stealth and get the revealed debuff. If they stay in it until the edges disappear, they will have a very, very long duration stealth.

Also, as Advent mentioned, a thief will often use CnD off your clones. Because of this, abilities, such as Crippling Dissipation, will be very effective against these types of thieves. Your best bet at winning a fight against a D/D thief is often by keeping them at range. A D/D thief can’t stealth without hitting you unless they use a long cooldown such as their heal, shadow’s refuge, or blinding powder, as opposed to a D/P thief, which can stealth by leaping through the blind field their pistol offhand drops. Keeping a D/D thief crippled and kiting out their stealth is often very effective since they will have often have to burn valuable cooldowns or re-stealth off your clones instead of you.

Finally, don’t forget that you can still hit your enemy while they are stealthed. Because of this, Diversion can sometimes be better than Distortion when you’re trying to avoid getting backstabbed by a cloaked thief as this will daze them and allow you to switch to playing offensively instead of just burning a cooldown while you stay defensive.

Hopefully that helps!

-jumps up and down- Main mesmer and backstabby thief here! I can offer my amateur advice!

D/D backstab relies heavily on correct timing, from when to stealth and when to move. You really don’t want to skimp on initiatives, so (my assumption) most thieves will save their heartseeker for when they are certain their enemy can get downed. Wasting initiatives when their enemy can’t get downed will just leave a thief vulnerable. (aka, easy to kill these kind of thieves) Until then, heartseeker acts more of a gap closer. Once the thief themselves get to half health, they disengage to heal.

If I can’t start the fight properly, or I’m caught off guard, it can really mess up my timing. Perhaps the best thing to do is to initiate the fight yourself. My build is also a literal ‘glass cannon’ build, and condition damage will eat me alive if I’m not careful. The one time I can recall a condi build really hurting me was when I ran across an elementalist. I had not expected it, and was anticipating an easy kill. But he initiated the fight before I did, waited for me after I used my stealth, then piled condition while staying away from me. D/D is a melee weapon set, and he was ranged, so I was forced to keep disengaged and on the defensive because my health kept at half hp, and he kept moving away from me. If I chased him, I would have just wasted initiatives/life saving utility skills, and with him still at high health, I’d be face to face without any strong offensive attacks.

Most builds that focus on burst damage do not concentrate on condition damage. There is condition, yes, but the main idea is to add as much raw damage as fast as possible. So I might want to swap arcane thievery out for something else. Blink is a nice skill to have, but I’d agree with Vincent and to take Mirror Images instead. Mesmers don’t have as much healing options available if you go for the glass cannon build, but it’s important to keep your health above half – once it goes to half, that is a good time for the thief to pile on bursts.

To be honest, I find interruption skills against thieves to be helpful when playing on my mesmer. Not so much as disabling, because if a thief is crippled or immobilized, they’ll use their stealth or shadowstep. But if you can get a thief to waste their shadowstep, and immobilize them…they’re in trouble.

Also, I have a sylvari mesmer, so if I’m roaming, I don’t carry MI or TW. I use my racial skills, usually either Take Root or Summon Druid Spirit. Mesmer elite are just not that great for roaming IMO. MI takes too long to cast. TW is better off in team fights. In solo, the duration is too short and the cooldown is very long. And Moa? Well…I don’t remember when was the last time I even used that one. My racial skills are better suited for roaming than my mesmer skills.

Never, ever, EVER waste your evades at full health. You’re just giving the thief a chance to trap you without escape skills. Be offensive right away. Interrupt early to throw the thief off, and make them waste their stealth skills. A thief has a lot of options to stealth, but they can run out. Also, if you see the ‘revealed’ icon (after they delivered a backstab) that may be an ideal time to burst them, because they cannot stealth away. And they are right next to you! That is when you can dish out attacks.

Sir Vincent III.1286

1st wasting your F4
2nd wasting your Blurred Frenzy
3rd no blindness
4th Blink —really?
5th off-hand sword —really?

1st: I wouldn’t consider my first F4 to be a waste. He used basilisk venom and then would have insta downed me with the subsequent HS and/or auto attacks.
2nd: My blurred frenzy was an attempt to prevent a back stab, although probably a sword block would have been better (I was running off hand pistol when I was thinking this scenario through). Not sure what the alternative would be. I can’t just do nothing otherwise I’m getting hit with another 10k. Suggestions?
3rd: No blindness -> not in my build, and as I stated, I’m not looking to change it.
4th: blink, see previous.
5th: off-hand sword, see previous.

I am actually kind of surprised that you hate on the off hand sword. I get a block (and clone) or a daze (on a relatively short CD) and our hardest hitting single target phantasm in the game.
And blink?? Are you trolling me with this one…?

Sir Vincent III.1286

1st only use F1 – low CD and stacks confusion – use often
2nd Blurred Frenzy only a Heartseeker – if you insist on using a sword main-hand, but use a torch off-hand
3rd you need blindness – obvious reasons
4th remove Blink and pick up Mirror Images – your build requires more clones and MM is a stun breaker
5th dump the off-hand sword, get a torch for blindness or just pick up a staff if you really want to be highly offensive plus you get Chaos Armor for regen and blindness.

1st: I use it purely for burst. GS gets them to 50%, and bam to the face with mind wrack!! My confusion stack damage is pitiful, although if they aren’t dead from F1, I’ll stack confusion with F2 on them to finish them off. I think this is just a difference of playstyles though.
2nd: Good point, and I think that is probably the best option. I have to comment, you have great disdain for the sword, when it is our seemingly single best weapon in the game…
4th: no. Although MM i nice, I am not exactly in need of more damage, I am looking to stay alive. I’ve toyed with switching out my condi removal for MM. If only I had some sort of passive condi removal
5th: I am not picking up torch. Torch is next to useless in a power build. Staff is the epitome of defensive play, and I concede that it would add survivability to my game play. However, I don’t like how passive it is and it doesn’t suit my playstyle (although I do bring it out for solo roaming on this build).

These are all fine suggestions for an overall look at my build, however none of these are helpful for specifically taking down (or even just surviving) a D/D thief (except the torch and blind, but that phantasm is too kittenty for me to even consider).

Regardless, my build works as intended against every class except the D/D glass thief. I am not looking for build changes, only on execution/L2P.

Sir Vincent III.1286

I like your build — I think I’ll use it for my Mesmer with some tweaking.

It’s actually tweaked from one of the kings of shatter builds, Osicat. His was for solo roaming, and thus had a lot more survival than mine. All credit goes to that mastermind. Check it out!

Thanks for your input.

-edit- It seems Arikyali.5804 has recommended removing blink as well and putting MM in its place. Granted, it will increase my dps, but I’m not sure if sacrificing my survivability is worth it. I should also mention I am in T1, so the chances of encountering an enemy zerg are high, and blink is the only thing keeping me alive.

I am the aforementioned friend/party member that serves as a damage sponge while dammerung goes off to heal the sustained dps in our party.

I have always felt that I know what to do against thieves, it’s just a matter of doing it well enough to actually win. It’s good to see some of the feedback given here confirm that. I’ve started to record my roaming and it is interesting to see the precise moment where I make a mistake that causes me to lose. It’s usually something like: I didn’t heal as soon as I should, I used one skill when i should have used another, or I didn’t use a particular shatter at the exact time I needed to. I don’t always lose but when I do it’s because of one of those things. But these things will iron themselves out as I continue to play and get better. However, this all assuming that all things are equal and I know that i’m about to engage a thief. Like dammerung said, our problem is when we are taken by surprise with 2 attacks that take 75% of our health. It is difficult to recover enough from that kind of encounter in order to survive the second round of attacks. But I suppose that’s the point lol.

On another note, I am very glad to hear staff recommended in terms of offense. IMO, pound for pound, it is the mesmer’s second best weapon preceded only by sword. I think it is often overlooked how offensely it can be used despite it’s defensive design. All of my wins/very close losses against theives have happened while using staff. In fact, I was able to walk away from a battle with 2 thieves last night. I know it is entirely possible to beat a thief without a staff but to me it seems like that weapon gives us the best chance. Unless you really know what you’re doing. Which I don’t (yet).

Request for a nerf here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Nerf-Wish-list/first#post3309034
We’re too OP to counter.

Yea, a staff mesmer and condition mesmers overall are very hard to counter. I find that generally I either win a fight against a thief quickly or I don’t win it at all if I’m against a power mesmer.

Also, if you want to get a good feel for how a good D/D thief plays in WvW, check out some of the videos by Yishis. He does a great job of explaining what he’s doing in the video as it happens step by step.

Here’s a link to his latest video. Skip to 1:37 to see a fight involving a mesmer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Lh8Oogl6Y

Dammerung.6419 you have my respect man.

Not every people come here and actually want to learn how to play better . . . they just come to QQ.

I don’t know much of mesmer but i can tell you that there is a build with a lot of stealth and teleports while the clones applies conditions that is almost impossible to kill . . . at least to me.

You should try that one, is just amazing how hard is to kill when well played.

Dammerung.6419:

1st: I wouldn’t consider my first F4 to be a waste. He used basilisk venom and then would have insta downed me with the subsequent HS and/or auto attacks.

It’s a waste because you didn’t have to do that if you had a stun breaker (see Mirror Images)

2nd: My blurred frenzy was an attempt to prevent a back stab, although probably a sword block would have been better (I was running off hand pistol when I was thinking this scenario through). Not sure what the alternative would be. I can’t just do nothing otherwise I’m getting hit with another 10k. Suggestions?

Two things: light a Torch when the Thief stealth — or — use the Staff’s Chaos Armor.

Off-hand sword is a sign that your you’re holding for everyone to see, “I’m an easy to down Mesmer — pick me!”

3rd: No blindness -> not in my build, and as I stated, I’m not looking to change it.
4th: blink, see previous.
5th: off-hand sword, see previous.

Well, you have to live with the consequences of that choice.

If you want to roam, you need to adapt and make changes. If you insist, then I hope I see you in WvW.

I am actually kind of surprised that you hate on the off hand sword. I get a block (and clone) or a daze (on a relatively short CD) and our hardest hitting single target phantasm in the game.

It’s not that I “hate” it, it’s not effective enough. You see if I’m the Thief I know you have a block and I know how to waste it — after that, you’re a sitting duck.

And blink?? Are you trolling me with this one…?

No troll here. Blink has a long cooldown that will leave you vulnerable after use. If you have not yet noticed, the Thief will simply shadowstep to where ever you blinked at. If not shadowstep, steal, or simply heartseeker. You are better off with Mirror Images as your stun breaker.

1st: I use it purely for burst. GS gets them to 50%, and bam to the face…

GS is fine, but Sw/Sw is not. With GS and Staff, you can have an endless wave of clones.

2nd: Good point, and I think that is probably the best option. I have to comment, you have great disdain for the sword, when it is our seemingly single best weapon in the game…

I have to disagree. Staff and GS are your best weapons. Torch is good at 1v1 (aka Roaming) and Focus is good in zergs. Sword main-hand, yes, but not the off-hand — there are better alternatives.

4th: no. Although MM i nice, I am not exactly in need of more damage, I am looking to stay alive. I’ve toyed with switching out my condi removal for MM. If only I had some sort of passive condi removal

MM is your key in staying alive, but I would replace blink instead.

5th: I am not picking up torch. Torch is next to useless in a power build. Staff is the epitome of defensive play…I don’t like how passive it is and it doesn’t suit my playstyle

Well, you don’t really have many option left if you eliminate those.

If you really want help to counter a Thief, then you need to explore all options, otherwise you’re stuck at your current state.

These are all fine suggestions for an overall look at my build, however none of these are helpful for specifically taking down (or even just surviving) a D/D thief (except the torch and blind, but that phantasm is too kittenty for me to even consider).

That’s all you have as a Mesmer. You resisted on two weapons that can help you on your quest to dominate a Thief. What else do you want?

Regardless, my build works as intended against every class except the D/D glass thief. I am not looking for build changes, only on execution/L2P.

Part of L2P is making adjustments, changes, and adapting to the situation. If you fail at taking out the Thief and still insist on your current gear that brought you that failure — then you haven’t learn anything after all.

It’s actually tweaked from one of the kings of shatter builds, Osicat. His was for solo roaming, and thus had a lot more survival than mine. All credit goes to that mastermind. Check it out!

I think I’ve seen that build, but I sure will check it out.

Thanks for your input.

Anytime.

-edit- It seems Arikyali.5804 has recommended removing blink as well and putting MM in its place. Granted, it will increase my dps, but I’m not sure if sacrificing my survivability is worth it. I should also mention I am in T1, so the chances of encountering an enemy zerg are high, and blink is the only thing keeping me alive.

All you can do is try it out and see how it works for you. If it’s not the right fit, you can always go back to Blink — but at least give MM some mileage and really try to use its full potential.

Until you’re ready to drop the training wheels and have a fair fight, I’d suggest you work on your teamwork. In a 2v1 you should never get stomped. Start ressing your downed teammate and daze the thief (F3) before the stomp finishes. Torch really is strong against thieves even though the phantasm sucks so bad. Staff in general is pretty great too, phase retreat will be a lot stronger than the thief’s sword return after Dec 10th. Chaos storm and Chaos armor are great to help with backstabs.

A d/d thief perma stealthing off of your clones is pretty cheesy but you’re playing with a PU mesmer (oh so cheesy) so honestly anything the thief does should be considered fair game.

Dahkeus, Phaeris, and Arikyali, I greatly appreciate your posts. The mindset of how a D/D thief acts is kind of foreign to me, so this will come as a great help! I am also a sylvari mesmer, but I think MI is going to remain as my elite, just because me and Panda can chain them together for a getaway when outnumbered.

Panda, aka damage sponge, you weren’t supposed to come creep on my posts. Also, GS 4 LYFE! :P

SoleciTO, If only you could hear me on TS. There is much kittening to be had about “those kitten thieves”. I know the build you are talking about and it’s the aforementioned PU build that seems to be the meta for roaming builds ATM. Granted, you can win fights and it is the one build I feel confident enough to go up against any class, however I just feel likes it’s too easy mode and frankly more of a troll build.

Sir Vincent III, I appreciate your comments on the build. I am only hesitant to change it since it is so effective against other classes (cept condi necro, kitten that guy). I would really rather work with elevating my skill level, since I think that is where the biggest problem lies.

Sir Vincent III

Part of L2P is making adjustments, changes, and adapting to the situation. If you fail at taking out the Thief and still insist on your current gear that brought you that failure — then you haven’t learn anything after all.

I totally understand, and upon rereading my response to you, I can see a lot of resistance to change. I am ok with that for now, since this is my first real attempt on figuring out the D/D problem. Honestly, me and Panda were discussing that this build is just particularly weak to D/D’s (and I think most shatter builds in general). I posted this to see if it is even remotely possible with this build to survive an encounter. It might be the case that this build will ultimately fail, but I first want to develop the skill set I need as a player before I start scrapping builds.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Hype

Until you’re ready to drop the training wheels and have a fair fight, I’d suggest you work on your teamwork.

I’m not sure what you mean by fair fight. I don’t initiate a D/D thief, they do. If it was up to me, I’d avoid that all day.

In a 2v1 you should never get stomped. Start ressing your downed teammate and daze the thief (F3) before the stomp finishes.

He does, but he isn’t a shatter build, so shattering effects don’t work on him, only his clones. And shattering on an invisible opponent (when they are stomping) generally fails. The only thing he can do is either MI to res me or put down a chaos storm. If he can get a res off, great, but I will still be 1 HS away from death. This is why I am focussing on what I can do, rather than what we can do.

Torch really is strong against thieves even though the phantasm sucks so bad. Staff in general is pretty great too, phase retreat will be a lot stronger than the thief’s sword return after Dec 10th. Chaos storm and Chaos armor are great to help with backstabs.
A d/d thief perma stealthing off of your clones is pretty cheesy but you’re playing with a PU mesmer (oh so cheesy) so honestly anything the thief does should be considered fair game.

I don’t think I once mentioned “fairness” in terms of what a D/D thief can do, and I thought I did a pretty good job of avoiding any “QQ” tendencies that these types of posts seem to generate. I would appreciate the same sentiment. That said, I would rather work on my skill set than change my build prematurely. I will scrap it if/when I can do all that I can with it.

Dammerung.6419:

Panda, aka damage sponge, you weren’t supposed to come creep on my posts. Also, GS 4 LYFE! :P

Lmao, creep? I read all the forums, not just the mesmer one

Dammerung.6419:

I totally understand, and upon rereading my response to you, I can see a lot of resistance to change. I am ok with that for now, since this is my first real attempt on figuring out the D/D problem. Honestly, me and Panda were discussing that this build is just particularly weak to D/D’s (and I think most shatter builds in general). I posted this to see if it is even remotely possible with this build to survive an encounter. It might be the case that this build will ultimately fail, but I first want to develop the skill set I need as a player before I start scrapping builds.

Well then, just a couple (or more) of pointers then.

1. Save your F4 unless it’s the only one left — Blink more if you must
2. Blurred on HS — feed your sword to their daggers
3. Block after taking a Backstab
4. Don’t attempt to predict what the Thief will do because chances are, more likely than not, they are studying your reactions while they stay in stealth.
5. Stay open to other possibilities — if something is not working, you’ll have to let it go (imagine how many things we Thieves have to let go in order to adapt)

Good luck to you.

Hype.8032:

Until you’re ready to drop the training wheels and have a fair fight, I’d suggest you work on your teamwork. In a 2v1 you should never get stomped. Start ressing your downed teammate and daze the thief (F3) before the stomp finishes. Torch really is strong against thieves even though the phantasm sucks so bad. Staff in general is pretty great too, phase retreat will be a lot stronger than the thief’s sword return after Dec 10th. Chaos storm and Chaos armor are great to help with backstabs.

A d/d thief perma stealthing off of your clones is pretty cheesy but you’re playing with a PU mesmer (oh so cheesy) so honestly anything the thief does should be considered fair game.

If someone goes down in a 2 v 1 fight, it’s really not that hard for the thief to get the stomp off since they can stealth and blind in one instant move, then start a stomp that is only countered by an AoE knockback/stun. If the downed person is a mesmer, they can’t even teleport away unless they get an enemy to target for their #2 ability.

There are two counters that a mesmer has to a thief stomping their buddy: 1) Greatsword #5 (I know I said to never use this for anything but for Shadow’s Refuge, but this is the one exception) and 2) Diversion.

for me mesmer are 50/50 chance to win (i also play a mesmer)
when i fight mesmer against thief i try to spread out my clones/phantasm so he must choose who to hit and i have good chance to see him
also my illusion AI will probably point the right direction by hitting him
i try to put my back attached to 1 of my illusions so if he try BS he will hit them first
if he got me by surprise he will have the upper hand that why if roaming alone i take the staff
when you dodge/blink always do this to the opposite direction of the thief movement
if he chasing you dodge backwards so always he will have to turn his camera 180 giving you more time to react

GL

I don’t play shatter for a while, but the trick against bursty thiefs is payback.

If the thief is doing all that dmg, he is also glassy. So you just return the favor.

On my shatter I used mirror images instead of arcane thievery and tried the 4 ofhands all worked with staff as second weapon. Staff is good because Increases your survivability and produce a lot of clones. But since you don’t want to change your build I would advice your the following.

Thief come at you with basilik you pope decoy (stun breaker), and move from there if you decide not to use mirror images then you summon the off hand sword phantam, do a dodge to produce 1 more clone,if the decoy clone is dead, and do an illusionary leap to the thief followed by a bluerred frenzy, mind wrack, diversion (to interrupt is exit)
If you nail him depending on his hp he could be dead or almost. so he will try to run away try not to let him.

If you decide to use MR, before you do the illusionary leap you pop diversion and then when you go for mind wrack you use MR for the burst.

If he go stealth you can move out of the zone or you can wait for him, if you decide to wait count to 3 and pop block, if he attacks you, you will see block on your screen, when you do dodge hope he pops out of stealth and proceed to burst him.

if you see him using DP combo to go stealth, shadow refuge,binding powder and you can’t interrupt it (just the first two, the third one is instant you can’t interrupt).

Pop you stealth and reset the fight because now if you stay in the zone the thief has the upper hand and you have important skills in CD.

You can also save your MR for this time and wait for him, pop distortion to avoid the burst, leap to him Blurred frenzy, MR mind wrack. usually dead thief.

Don’t forget if you in Blurred frenzy you are hitting the thief and he is not hitting you.

Also don’t follow DD thiefs in to the middle of mob/crits this give them the advantage to be in stealth without the need to attack you and they can wait for the best moment to burst you down.

Ofc there aren’t 100% recipes to be successful, it all comes to the skill level of the thief to get out in time and your skill level to apply pressure.

If you are hit after basilik don’t forget to heal while you are in decoy’s stealth, after the first hit from the thief you have 4 seconds to apply your burst.

GL

Dammerung.6419:

SoleciTO, If only you could hear me on TS. There is much kittening to be had about “those kitten thieves”. I know the build you are talking about and it’s the aforementioned PU build that seems to be the meta for roaming builds ATM. Granted, you can win fights and it is the one build I feel confident enough to go up against any class, however I just feel likes it’s too easy mode and frankly more of a troll build.

Well then you can imaging how we feel that we only have 1 real viable build to survive (D/P) in WvW and we only kill bad players or low lvl characters.

People love to say that permastealth is cheesy.

Now think about that build from mesmer . . . you just say it . . . it is cheesy.

Actually all the profession has builds called cheesy . . . because people is confusing.

For every good build in this game will be always a community of people making QQ threads because they don’t get that they can not counter every profession or build in this game with only one style.

Hype.8032:

A d/d thief perma stealthing off of your clones is pretty cheesy but you’re playing with a PU mesmer (oh so cheesy) so honestly anything the thief does should be considered fair game.

How is this cheesy? It’s a legitimate tactic against mesmers when you use DD, and it also requires critical decision making since a lot of the time you may need to keep stealthing just to find the right opening to attack and not take a large amount of damage from phantasms or potential shatters
That being said, OP, if you see a thief CnD off of your clones and they know what they are doing, don’t make a mistake, they aren’t confused. To add they will cloak off of clones to confuse you a lot (many a time I have involuntarily tricked a mesmer into thinking I thought the clone was the real one which led to them standing there laughing to themselves and getting backstabbed, so don’t fall for that). Another thing too is if you confuse the thief (like actually confuse, not the condition) and he for a second doesn’t know which is the real you, another common tactic is to once again stealth off of a clone, but this is different. When I see thieves, and myself, stealth off of a clone since we are confused, we are spending those four seconds in stealth to look for you and not worry about the phantoms or clones attacking us. If this happens then -usually- the thief won’t go after you right away, they’ll let stealth wear off since by the time the find the real you they’d be out of stealth anyway, and then they’ll immediately re-stealth to make their way to you. Not necessarily advice, but moreso words of caution.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Hype.8032:

A d/d thief perma stealthing off of your clones is pretty cheesy but you’re playing with a PU mesmer (oh so cheesy) so honestly anything the thief does should be considered fair game.

How is this cheesy? It’s a legitimate tactic against mesmers when you use DD, and it also requires critical decision making since a lot of the time you may need to keep stealthing just to find the right opening to attack and not take a large amount of damage from phantasms or potential shatters

Any build that overly relies on stealth in wvw is cheesy imo. Using that same build in spvp is fine because you’ll lose the point using it. Getting ~80% stealth up time by timing cnd’s off clones is lame, not fun to play against, and it’s really easy to do (no critical decision making necessary).

Hype.8032:

RedSpectrum.1975:

Hype.8032:

A d/d thief perma stealthing off of your clones is pretty cheesy but you’re playing with a PU mesmer (oh so cheesy) so honestly anything the thief does should be considered fair game.

How is this cheesy? It’s a legitimate tactic against mesmers when you use DD, and it also requires critical decision making since a lot of the time you may need to keep stealthing just to find the right opening to attack and not take a large amount of damage from phantasms or potential shatters

Any build that overly relies on stealth in wvw is cheesy imo. Using that same build in spvp is fine because you’ll lose the point using it. Getting ~80% stealth up time by timing cnd’s off clones is lame, not fun to play against, and it’s really easy to do (no critical decision making necessary).

See above explanation, there are decisions being made when one stealths off of a clone. People don’t just stealth off of mesmer clones to just be in stealth, also considering DD get’s its main power attack off of getting stealth. Guarantee if we could backstab without stealth, we’d be stealthing a bit less

RedSpectrum.1955

there are decisions being made when one stealths off of a clone. People don’t just stealth off of mesmer clones to just be in stealth, also considering DD get’s its main power attack off of getting stealth. Guarantee if we could backstab without stealth, we’d be stealthing a bit less.

I just can’t agree with this line of reasoning. People stealth because you are, for all intents and purposes, immune to damage and can dictate how and when you want the fight to continue (all the more evident with the stealth up-time that a D/D thief can maintain). This is especially apparent in a fight with a mesmer where 50%-70% (depending on your weapon choice) of their offensive skills requires a target as well as having no offensive aoe’s (except chaos storm and mirror blades). Now this is purely from a mesmer perspective since other classes could handle a D/D thief with melee damage or aoe spam with a lot more ease when they stealth. Regardless, it is in a thief’s best interest to remain hidden when fighting a mesmer to remove 50-70% of their effectiveness.

As for your guarantee, if thieves that run the D/D build didn’t require stealth for a backstab, how would that effect their thinking at all? Should I attack this person in the open where they could potentially counter me, or should I stealth and do it, eliminating any retaliation? Not to mention it would become a lot more difficult to get behind your opponent when they can see you. Seriously, backstabs become easy mode in comparison when stealth is involved, and no thief with any sense would attempt a backstab without stealth in this scenario. Furthermore, lets say that stealth was eliminated entirely for this argument. It would then be almost impossible to run a full glass build in such a situation, in which case, as the opponent, I wouldn’t have to worry about the staggering amount of damage that this thief could do with one hit.

Dammerung.6419:

People stealth because you are, for all intents and purposes, immune to damage

You sir made my day! can’t stop laughing!

It might be true that the thief stealth because he wants to migate some damage by getting hit less.

But it does make the thief as immune to damage as you getting immune to damage when having clones.

crouze.3078

It might be true that the thief stealth because he wants to migate some damage by getting hit less. But it does make the thief as immune to damage as you getting immune to damage when having clones.

This is why I put the qualifier that this is mostly true for a mesmer fight. You may take note, that I conceded that this is not the case in other fights against other classes. Reading comprehension ftw!

If you know the exact method in which you attempt to counter a thief, and can narrate it from start to finish, then, IMO, that is your problem.

I don’t want to go into too much detail, but, as a zealous fan of chess, I and many others believe that “playing by the book” will only help you up to a certain point; it’s not like chess is a solved game, and that everything you see in the books is going to be correct. Similarly, judging by your recitation, you seem to have either picked this method up from somewhere, or have been using it so consistently that it has developed into a bad habit. I’d thus say that you need to get into the habit of mixing things up and trying different things out. Perhaps all of this is just a minor issue, though.

However, that doesn’t mean I can’t provide with a few tokens of wisdom (if I may call them such :P)…

1. Don’t start with Distortion. It has a pretty long CD and, honestly, you’d probably be better off using it as your last card. Furthermore, when you have no clones out (and if you ever choose to run without Illusionary Persona), you’re going to have only an extremely short Distortion, and as my other 80 outside of my thief is also a mesmer, I might say that that’s going to be a fairly dangerous thing to do so early in a battle. Distortion should always be the last trick up your sleeve.

Instead, use Decoy. It grants you a stealth (time to recover!) and doesn’t burn out that CD. Decoy also has a pretty short CD in and of itself, as well.

2. Some specifics about the build. Whereas I’m not as much of a mesmer fanatic as Osicat is, here are some things that I saw that should at least be considered by you…

- I tend to be extremely suspicious of “X on swap” sigils unless 1. The player using them is an elementalist, 2. The player using them is using two of the same (or very, very similar) weapon set (Jumper’s S/D S/D build comes to mind for me), or 3. The player using them is using them in such a way as to burst an enemy all of a sudden in a battle (warrior rifle, IMO, is one such type of weapon). As none of these seems to be the case for you, I would suggest that you replace those sigils with an old favorite of mine, Force Sigils. They’re much more reliable and have an absolutely fantastic effect. Other options would be Air Sigil (best for S/S, for you) and Fire Sigil (almost certainly better for GS).

- If you haven’t yet, consider using a staff. Those help with stuns a lot (unless 2 got nerfed, like Shadow Return is being nerfed for thief)

- Consider taking 5 points out of both Dueling and Illusions. I’ve been playing 10/25/0/10/25 with Vigorous Revelation on the Inspiration Tree. It’s just a generally useful trait which you can use to keep up long durations of vigor and the cost isn’t much (never been much of a fan of Illusionary Persona, personally, and taking an Adept trait for your GM tier in Dueling seems a bit suspect to me). The other option is 10/25/10/0/25 (which I believe is PvP mesmer Countless’ build), w/ Debilitating Dissipation. Either way, both of these trait choices are going to have a bit more utility against thieves than your current build, IMO.

One last thing- do you really have all of that Ascended gear? I’m so jealous. :/

Arganthium.5638

If you know the exact method in which you attempt to counter a thief, and can narrate it from start to finish, then, IMO, that is your problem.

Yes, it seems a bit rehearsed. But that’s because it is driving me crazy! I go to bed thinking about what I can do to counter it! Which is why I am here ;D

1. Don’t start with Distortion.

Yes, that seems to be what most people recommend. Honestly, it’s purely reactionary to big hits that I need to stop doing. It is definitely my “oh kitten!” button. Although, i do have an auto cooldown for it when I drop below 50% HP, so it should be back up after that backstab.

I tend to be extremely suspicious of “X on swap” sigils unless 1. The player using them is an elementalist, 2. The player using them is using two of the same (or very, very similar) weapon set (Jumper’s S/D S/D build comes to mind for me), or 3. The player using them is using them in such a way as to burst an enemy all of a sudden in a battle (warrior rifle, IMO, is one such type of weapon).

I am in that third category, actually. I am mostly the burst damage in my small roaming group while my other party member is sustained damage. I sort of jump in and out of combat to heal while he holds down the fort. I am taking after Osicat on this one, he seems to be a big advocate of them.

- If you haven’t yet, consider using a staff. Those help with stuns a lot (unless 2 got nerfed, like Shadow Return is being nerfed for thief)

Yes, the staff would be better for survival. I concede this, but it just doesn’t have the pressure that GS has. And I don’t think phase retreat is getting nerfed, cause that would reaaaally suck.

- Consider taking 5 points out of both Dueling and Illusions. I’ve been playing 10/25/0/10/25 with Vigorous Revelation on the Inspiration Tree. It’s just a generally useful trait which you can use to keep up long durations of vigor and the cost isn’t much (never been much of a fan of Illusionary Persona, personally, and taking an Adept trait for your GM tier in Dueling seems a bit suspect to me). The other option is 10/25/10/0/25 (which I believe is PvP mesmer Countless’ build), w/ Debilitating Dissipation. Either way, both of these trait choices are going to have a bit more utility against thieves than your current build, IMO.

Illusionary persona I simply cannot do away with. That’s the bread and butter of a shatter build! I am actually doing 100% uptime on vigor when fighting since I gain vigor on crit (dueling adept), so I should be ok in that respects. I am actually thinking of moving 10 out of dueling and placing it into inspiration for the upcoming patch (which isn’t a nerf for once!). Mender’s purity removes 2 conditions on a heal.

One last thing- do you really have all of that Ascended gear? I’m so jealous. :/

Ah yes, that is my exact equipment. I was a bit of a PVE junky, so I got all the good stuff back then. After I made bolt, I got burnt out so now I’ve been wvw-ing ever since. Do you do guild missions? That’s how I got all my trinkets.

Hype.8032:

Any build that overly relies on stealth in wvw is cheesy imo. Using that same build in spvp is fine because you’ll lose the point using it. Getting ~80% stealth up time by timing cnd’s off clones is lame, not fun to play against, and it’s really easy to do (no critical decision making necessary).

Oh yeah? Well, I’m a stealthy backstab D/D thief and I don’t care if other people find my tactics cheesy.

Roar!

Dammerung.6419:

I tend to be extremely suspicious of “X on swap” sigils unless 1. The player using them is an elementalist, 2. The player using them is using two of the same (or very, very similar) weapon set (Jumper’s S/D S/D build comes to mind for me), or 3. The player using them is using them in such a way as to burst an enemy all of a sudden in a battle (warrior rifle, IMO, is one such type of weapon).

I am in that third category, actually. I am mostly the burst damage in my small roaming group while my other party member is sustained damage. I sort of jump in and out of combat to heal while he holds down the fort. I am taking after Osicat on this one, he seems to be a big advocate of them.

If this is in fact the case, then you might want to consider only putting the sigil on one of your weapons, then. I’m not sure how much you consider both of them to be burst weapons, but traditionally, a burster has one weaponset with burst potential and another weaponset with support/mobility/whatever else.

Dammerung.6419:

RedSpectrum.1955

there are decisions being made when one stealths off of a clone. People don’t just stealth off of mesmer clones to just be in stealth, also considering DD get’s its main power attack off of getting stealth. Guarantee if we could backstab without stealth, we’d be stealthing a bit less.

I just can’t agree with this line of reasoning. People stealth because you are, for all intents and purposes, immune to damage and can dictate how and when you want the fight to continue (all the more evident with the stealth up-time that a D/D thief can maintain). This is especially apparent in a fight with a mesmer where 50%-70% (depending on your weapon choice) of their offensive skills requires a target as well as having no offensive aoe’s (except chaos storm and mirror blades). Now this is purely from a mesmer perspective since other classes could handle a D/D thief with melee damage or aoe spam with a lot more ease when they stealth. Regardless, it is in a thief’s best interest to remain hidden when fighting a mesmer to remove 50-70% of their effectiveness.

As for your guarantee, if thieves that run the D/D build didn’t require stealth for a backstab, how would that effect their thinking at all? Should I attack this person in the open where they could potentially counter me, or should I stealth and do it, eliminating any retaliation? Not to mention it would become a lot more difficult to get behind your opponent when they can see you. Seriously, backstabs become easy mode in comparison when stealth is involved, and no thief with any sense would attempt a backstab without stealth in this scenario. Furthermore, lets say that stealth was eliminated entirely for this argument. It would then be almost impossible to run a full glass build in such a situation, in which case, as the opponent, I wouldn’t have to worry about the staggering amount of damage that this thief could do with one hit.

1. You misunderstood my point, when a thief stealths off of one of your clones it is so they can look at the situation and thus control the fight, otherwise, mesmers are in control of the field when the set up their clone playground. The decisions usually are, should I attack now or wait just a bit longer? Is that the right guy, am I sure? What kind of phantom is this? Maybe I should chain CnD it to death so it doesn’t kill me while I’m revealed (thank you Yishis). And careful with your terms, DD has no stealth uptime adding. each stealth with CnD will be 3-4 seconds, no more. It’s not like D/P and therefore, the CnD can be countered. If a DD thief is running at you, you know what they’re going to do.

2.The point of a full glass thief build wasn’t about stealth, it was about damage. Before the thief collapse, a full GC’s utilities and traits barely had anything to do with stealth. And as for the guarantee, it was a blanket statement, not just for mesmers. Of course you’d want to be in stealth as long as possible, mesmers are very dangerous opponents. And you are not invulnerable while in stealth, the mitigation comes from lack of awareness, which is kinda what stealth was made for. And just think, I don’t see why even bring up the point o open field fighting etc, if we focues less on stealth, dont you think we’d function a bit differently in other areas to compensate ._.

RedSpectrum.1975

1. You misunderstood my point, when a thief stealths off of one of your clones it is so they can look at the situation and thus control the fight, otherwise, mesmers are in control of the field when the set up their clone playground. The decisions usually are, should I attack now or wait just a bit longer? Is that the right guy, am I sure? What kind of phantom is this? Maybe I should chain CnD it to death so it doesn’t kill me while I’m revealed (thank you Yishis). And careful with your terms, DD has no stealth uptime adding. each stealth with CnD will be 3-4 seconds, no more. It’s not like D/P and therefore, the CnD can be countered. If a DD thief is running at you, you know what they’re going to do.

No, I don’t think I misunderstood your point. I acknowledged that stealth will dictate the encounter. I think this is all semantic, we agree that D/D thieves stealth to control the match. I consider that they do “stealth because they can” because they literally can keep it up for long periods of time with a single skill that has little consequence to the rest of the fight. I am also aware of how CnD works, you can’t chain it in the traditional sense, but they can destealth and then just hit a clone. I don’t even think my phantasms have time to react. What would be interesting would be if CnD didn’t work on phantasms/clones/pets, and then the thief would have to actively hit a moving player with CnD. This is just a thought experiment though, but it would be interesting to see how that would play out.

2.The point of a full glass thief build wasn’t about stealth, it was about damage. Before the thief collapse, a full GC’s utilities and traits barely had anything to do with stealth. And as for the guarantee, it was a blanket statement, not just for mesmers.

Is this still a thing? The only stealth skill I’ve seen these thieves use is CnD and that stealth heal. Their bar isn’t filled with stealth, mostly it looks like that teleport skill (I don’t know the name), probably SR (but rarely mid fight, mostly as a run away tactic), and something else? Not exactly filled with stealth skills, but I don’t know the specifics of the build.

Of course you’d want to be in stealth as long as possible, mesmers are very dangerous opponents. And you are not invulnerable while in stealth, the mitigation comes from lack of awareness, which is kinda what stealth was made for.

And I will contest that specifically against a mesmer, you are practically invulnerable in stealth. Now I may be able to hit you with a 1 sword skill, a chaos storm (1 pulse, no one would stand in it for more than that – long CD), or a blurred frenzy. Those are the only offensive skills that require no targets. The chances of hitting you with any of these is low, but even if I did, my auto’s are laughably weak, and the others are easy to avoid. The rest, as stated previously, require a target. My phantasms/clones can’t attack, I can’t attack. You are, in fact, invulnerable in a mesmer fight when stealthed.

This is why glassy D/D thieves are the only class style that I am having so much difficulty with. They don’t need to chain their stealth for long, maybe enter and reenter twice, and with 3 hits I can be dead. The combination of big hits and my gamestyle being forcibly adjusted to purely reactionary is what makes this so difficult. It is my aggressive playstyle that keeps me alive in most fights, but if I can’t attack…? It is a situation where I have to out burst my opponent, but a thief that can burst me from stealth leaves me at a great disadvantage. By starting this thread, I am hoping their is at least something I can do, without having to resort to butchering my build.

And just think, I don’t see why even bring up the point o open field fighting etc, if we focues less on stealth, dont you think we’d function a bit differently in other areas to compensate ._.

I do think you would function differently. Specifically, you wouldn’t be able to go full glass. Even with high uptime on evades as a replacement, the fact that I can see you to avoid the heavy hits would make the fight last longer than the current “3 hits and I am dead” scenario. That block I wasted in order to anticipate a backstab? I can now actually see it coming. As well, all the classes that required targets now have their full builds to work with, rather than 50% of it.

D/D as it is currently (from my experiences) are only in a fight for short periods of time. Anything longer than that, and they run the risk of running out of initiative and leaving themselves easy targets. They have set up a build that leaves them protected from most damage, all while dictating how the fight should proceed. High stealth up times removes a lot of the risk that other classes must face when going full glass.

Actually, from past experiences, your clones and phantoms will start to attack the moment stealth is dropped. How much damage depends on the time while seen.

As for stealthing on a whim, most don’t like doing that. I think the most amount of times ive chained was three. Think about it, why would I want to lengthen a fight so your team can come or your skills cooldown?

And idk if you know this or not, since most associate DD with glass, there are non glass backstab builds that are popular. Imo these should be your main worry, once a GC wastes his opening attack and you deny it, he’s done. However a balanced thief will do a bit less dmg, but are able to stay in the fight much longer and fold easily. Ironically they stealth more since they have different utilities, go figure.

I think it depends on how close they are to you when they stealth, and how quickly you re-stealth. I know I’ve seen my swordsman advance to within range of his leap attack and then stop because the thief disappeared.

Stealthing on a whim is my point though. For these builds, if I am not dead by 3 chains of stealth, that’s their cue to exit. I know they don’t want to lengthen the fight. That’s when they start getting pressure put back on them.

The problem is the GC gets that hit in. I’ve got to do something to anticipate it, but I don’t have a well defined approach for these guys. I’ve tried anticipating it and putting up a block, but they just wait it out and I lose my block. I then try stealth, for the dude to reappear, but my clones are CnD friendly. Now I’ve got my defense on CD, and the thief hasn’t done anything yet. Like seriously, what do you do?? I need clones to shatter, so removing phantasms isn’t a good idea, but then it’s just re-stealth fodder. Is this just a fight I cannot win? This might just be the case for my current build.

It’s actually the balanced thief (or the bad thief, ha) that I can handle. He can’t devastate me as quickly in one hit so I can actually do some offense instead of pure reactionary defense in that scenario (if they come out of stealth long enough for a daze).

There’s nothing you could do until you admit that your current setup is not working that you need to make a lot of changes.

Until then, you’re in a stasis.

EDIT: By the way, if you’re interested, I made some tweaks with your build that my mesmer is currently using. Other than the Ascended Items (since only my Thief has some), this is the build I’m currently running.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAscRl4zCpXUzpGb9IBqHbH7fnUhWX6Bvj9tB-jUCBYLCik0g00A0AQZPFRjtMsIasqFYqSER1eDFRrWKgIGGB-w

A friend of mine, and one of the Thief community’s most passionate theorycrafters, says “Thank you for asking us for counters. You are better than most people.”

And indeed, thank you for being willing to learn. Most people come, complain, and leave.

Imagi.4561:

A friend of mine, and one of the Thief community’s most passionate theorycrafters, says “Thank you for asking us for counters. You are better than most people.”

And indeed, thank you for being willing to learn. Most people come, complain, and leave.

I’m RedSpectrum.1975 and I approve this message

Lets be honest here among thief builds DD is generally the easiest counter. The issue for mesmer is that AI is pretty much what DD needs to keep going ie a body to hit that isn’t going to dodge. You can ask for advice but it is a bad match up in the first place. I think complaining about a build that for 5 odd months has been on the kitten list for this class is kind of strange. When DD got nerfed the first time and players ran (after buffs) to DP and SD (and other classes).

The counter for DD has remained the same for quite a while. Avoid the CnD or if you can not negating the initial burst (glass builds). It isn’t hard to counter. Stealth access is generally limited by your dodging skills and timing. If you play an AI heavy build there isn’t all that much to be said.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Imagi.4561:

A friend of mine, and one of the Thief community’s most passionate theorycrafters, says “Thank you for asking us for counters. You are better than most people.”

And indeed, thank you for being willing to learn. Most people come, complain, and leave.

I’m RedSpectrum.1975 and I approve this message

This could be the beginning of a better forum community.

TheGuy.3568:

The counter for DD has remained the same for quite a while. Avoid the CnD or if you can not negating the initial burst (glass builds). It isn’t hard to counter. Stealth access is generally limited by your dodging skills and timing. If you play an AI heavy build there isn’t all that much to be said.

A lot of people doesn’t even notice that CnD was used against them so how can they avoid it? Bottom line is, you can’t always actively react on everything, you still need some passive defense in place especially when the Thief goes in stealth.

Just again going to praise the OP coming here asking for L2P help rather than just QQ’ing. The warrior section is for QQ’ing :P

I have little to add to the discussion, honestly. I play a GC thief and find myself either stomping or getting stomped by mesmers. I truly think these encounters are more of a demonstration of play rather than class advantages.

I think your biggest issue is that the thief is jumping you. Depends on the GC build, but it’s common for GC to run signets for the burst damage versus stealth utility. I therefore suggest you try and be a little more aware of what’s around you, especially before initiating on camps. Taking a thief my surprise is the second best way to kill him (aside from Hammer Warrior faceroll auto-win, but that applies to basically every class). I’d suggest upping your render distance for WvW roaming if you need to. This lets you see a lot further away and can give you quite the edge in regards to seeing what’s coming to you, or what you’re walking into.

I don’t know a ton about mesmers, but my experience with s/s at the low levels is that you’re heavily invested in staying in the fight, and don’t have much CC. Sadly, this angle is pretty much the worst one to take when fighting a thief. A thief WANTS you to stick around and run helplessly around while he gets in and out of combat. More CC = better chance to kill him. D/D powerstab is a great build, but he’s only going to rip one stab on you after venom. You shouldn’t be dying at this point, seeing as your health is fairly high.

Blinds, stuns/dazes really get thieves. I’d recommend S/P or S/T for WvW roaming if you expect to run into other people. S/S is useful, but more for PvE than WvW/PvP.

Use your #2 to throw him off. Switching places can save you quite a lot, and may force them into blowing excess initiative. F4 is alright, but you should force an early retreat. A true GC D/D thief will have maybe 11k-12k health. Shatter him once or twice into lower values, and he’ll be forced to blow a heal. When he stealths, dodge away a little after a second. He won’t stab immediately unless already behind you, and getting away forces him to either lose stealth/stab or HS to stick to you. HS from stealth does nothing and wastes a stealth, while also opening him up to CC opportunities.

If you use stealth to get away. GET AWAY. He’s going to be looking for you. Backtrack if you have to. Just don’t sit there waiting.

Good luck!

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TheGuy.3568:

The counter for DD has remained the same for quite a while. Avoid the CnD or if you can not negating the initial burst (glass builds). It isn’t hard to counter. Stealth access is generally limited by your dodging skills and timing. If you play an AI heavy build there isn’t all that much to be said.

A lot of people doesn’t even notice that CnD was used against them so how can they avoid it? Bottom line is, you can’t always actively react on everything, you still need some passive defense in place especially when the Thief goes in stealth.

The first CnD during steal and likely basilisk venom is countered by a stun breaker and dodge. If you didn’t notice yourself get CnD then that is your issue. It generally isn’t coming in big combat situations and is more likely to happen while roaming. The counter isn’t tricky because if the thief missed the initial burst running DD glass then likely they missed their shot altogether. You are confusing bad play ie standing there with not being able to counter. Honestly any decently balanced build is not going to get run over by a DD thief. DD is the simplest thief to counter and is going to have the hardest time fighting if they miss their burst.

TheGuy.3568:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TheGuy.3568:

The counter for DD has remained the same for quite a while. Avoid the CnD or if you can not negating the initial burst (glass builds). It isn’t hard to counter. Stealth access is generally limited by your dodging skills and timing. If you play an AI heavy build there isn’t all that much to be said.

A lot of people doesn’t even notice that CnD was used against them so how can they avoid it? Bottom line is, you can’t always actively react on everything, you still need some passive defense in place especially when the Thief goes in stealth.

The first CnD during steal and likely basilisk venom is countered by a stun breaker and dodge.

lol @ “stun breaker and dodge”

By the time you hit your stun breaker, you’ve already been backstabbed and using your dodge after that will only put you deeper in a hole, because now you only have one dodge left.

Such a bad advice coming from a bad player.

Mesmers using Mirror Images as their stun breaker doesn’t need to dodge after breaking free.

Please stop now.

If you didn’t notice yourself get CnD then that is your issue.

You’re heavily assuming that D/D Thieves are bad players that they will make it so obvious that they will use CnD. That assumption will only bring your own demise.

The counter isn’t tricky because if the thief missed the initial burst running DD glass then likely they missed their shot altogether.

Again, heavily assuming a bad Thief. You’re heavily depending your survival in hope that the Thief will miss the initial burst. You should protect yourself regardless.

You are confusing bad play ie standing there with not being able to counter. Honestly any decently balanced build is not going to get run over by a DD thief. DD is the simplest thief to counter and is going to have the hardest time fighting if they miss their burst.

Please, stop, I can’t stop laughing at the inaccuracy and the naivete of this post.

You seriously need to stop.

You’re not helping because the OP have experienced it first hand that your account of fighting a D/D Thief is so far from reality — it’s embarrassing.

Uuuh…lemme think…how does a usual D/D fight go for me…

-Initiate with steal
-backstab

…Then it really depends on what my opponent does after that.

I don’t run up to my target to CnD. Hey look at me, a glass cannon thief running straight up to my target – that’s asking for a stun + burst from melee, or evasive attacking from range.

If I want to initiate with CnD, shadowstep first, then CnD. My opponent will have a split second to see what I did and I doubt they’d know right there that they should counter. I’m here, poof, gone. BAM.

The best counter for CnD is a big scary burst. If someone dodges me, that means they’re scared of me. I’m chasing them down.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Imagi.4561:

A friend of mine, and one of the Thief community’s most passionate theorycrafters, says “Thank you for asking us for counters. You are better than most people.”

And indeed, thank you for being willing to learn. Most people come, complain, and leave.

I’m RedSpectrum.1975 and I approve this message

I also approve of this message, but I haven’t been playing shatter mes long enough to give you specific advice. Keep moving. Count to 3.5 and dodge if you have DE. Try playing thief in spvp to learn the setup. You’ll get there.

with your new heal skills just do 2 attacks with Phantasmal Berserker or duelist twice

Mass invis might be good at running away, but if you pick Time Warp instead, you’d be generating a lot of illusions that you wouldn’t need to run away.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bottom line is, you can’t always actively react on everything, you still need some passive defense in place especially when the Thief goes in stealth.

Thieves also rely on active defenses. If we don’t dodge it, blind it or hide, we’re toast