Guild Wars 2

With the recent debuff that prevents stealth from dropping aggro, what is the point of “Hide in Shadows” as a healing skill? It casts slowly, can be interrupted, and doesn’t grant you any benefit from being invisible – the monsters keep attacking you.

“Withdraw” heals half as much but the cool off is twice as fast and it also removes some conditions and gives you an extra evade.

“Signet of Malice” heals you when you attack and, when used with something like Caltrops and Dagger Storm, can manage to heal you very quickly. And if you exhaust it, the Signet heals you as well – and its cooldown is only slightly longer than “Hide in Shadows”.

So … Withdraw and Signet both bring some pretty compelling reasons to use them to the table … Why should I go into combat with my now crippled Hide in Shadows?

HiS removes nearly all damaging conditions (all except confusion) on you and regens a little over time. Withdraw removes movement impairing conditions but not damaging ones.

Because there is much more to the game than pve zerging.

Reikou.7068:

Because there is much more to the game than pve zerging.

Yes, just like there’s more to me than your baseless assumption.

For me, the advantage of Hiding in Shadows is not only the condition removal aspect of it but also the amount of damage it can heal and stealth.

I found that there are situations you come across that the signet of malice will not be enough to heal you through damage mainly because you have to stop attacking.

I play a P/P thief and I find that Hide in Shadows works for me best than the other two. So I can say that, depending on your play style, the kind of healing skill you need will vary.

Let me explain to you something about the stealth mechanic as I have observed.

Yes it IS true that you will not loose aggro when you go into stealth, this also prevents mobs from going to full health the instant you go into stealth.

However, when you ARE in stealth and the mob is not using an AoE skill on you, it WILL stop attacking and just stand there, allowing you to move behind it and doing a backstab.

ALSO, if you are in a party and you go into stealth, you will not loose aggro BUT the mob your targeting will switch target to the next person on his aggro list mainly because it cannot attack you and there is another more attackable target nearby.

I have found this to be true in dungeons and fractals. It is also the reason why I don’t agree that P/P thief gameplay has no use for stealth.

Having said that, this thread will probably be move to thief forums.

Adlib: The thread was moved while I was typing a reply.

I tryed Signet and yes, with the traits that’s recharge faster signet you can use, with same time 30’s, only one HiS and two Signet.

But if you use Signet you need a condiction removal (traits o another skill) because, for example in WvW, HiS stealth you and remove the most common condition.

Falassion.8031:

I tryed Signet and yes, with the traits that’s recharge faster signet you can use, with same time 30’s, only one HiS and two Signet.

But if you use Signet you need a condiction removal (traits o another skill) because, for example in WvW, HiS stealth you and remove the most common condition.

If you use “Roll for Initiative” and “Hide in Shadows” together you’ll cover 6 conditions, even, Hmm … hadn’t noticed that before.

i think hide in the shadow is the best healing skill. it depend on your build of course and traits. i like to run hide in the shadow + roll for initiative stun break. that more or less a catch all combo.

Malice is more-so a PvE skill and isn’t too great in PvP compared to the others. I personally don’t like withdraw because I can’t control the direction I want it to go, and you can’t use it on ledges, JPs and etc. Hide in Shadows pretty much heals you to full HP and gives you stealth+ buffs depending on traits.

Doggie.3184:

Malice is more-so a PvE skill and isn’t too great in PvP compared to the others. I personally don’t like withdraw because I can’t control the direction I want it to go, and you can’t use it on ledges, JPs and etc. Hide in Shadows pretty much heals you to full HP and gives you stealth+ buffs depending on traits.

It’s not like the direction is random lol…
It’s straight to the back. It may be awkward in some situations, but I never fell off a cliff when I didn’t intend it, using withdraw.

If you look at the shadow arts trait line you find out why hide in shadows is good. You can then blind enemies with that heal, gain extra regen with that heal, cure an extra condition (typically cripple) with that heal and so on. If you are using cloak and dagger and backstabs in melee then the heal will fit into that cycle and save you some initiative.

If you want to be a melee thief then withdraw just rolls you out of melee range all the time. For my play style, I find signet of malice best for big group melee with caltrops and dagger storm, withdraw best for kiting and dodging, and hide in shadows best for melee.

You don’t get extra regen. The regen from shadow protector is only applied when you don’t have any regen on you.

Also, if you look at acrobatics, you know why Withdraw is good.
You then get pretty good vigor uptime due to the short cd on withdraw.

naphack.9346:

You don’t get extra regen. The regen from shadow protector is only applied when you don’t have any regen on you.

Also, if you look at acrobatics, you know why Withdraw is good.
You then get pretty good vigor uptime due to the short cd on withdraw.

HiS is one of the few skills where Shadow protector works correctly – you get the shadow protector regen first, THEN the HiS regen.

Jack of Tears.9458:

With the recent debuff that prevents stealth from dropping aggro, what is the point of “Hide in Shadows” as a healing skill? It casts slowly, can be interrupted, and doesn’t grant you any benefit from being invisible – the monsters keep attacking you.

I mainly use S/D as my main weapon set, and to deal with the slow casting time and vulnerability to interrupts, I use CnD first then HiS. With skill timing, you can extend your stealth to give you enough time to reposition yourself.

“Withdraw” heals half as much but the cool off is twice as fast and it also removes some conditions and gives you an extra evade.

Withdraw actually heals for more than HiS in a span of 30s (HiS’s CD). However, Withdraw doesn’t prevent further damage except the one it evaded and there are also situations, like having a good stack of Confusion, when healing often is actually going to get you killed.

“Signet of Malice” heals you when you attack and, when used with something like Caltrops and Dagger Storm, can manage to heal you very quickly. And if you exhaust it, the Signet heals you as well – and its cooldown is only slightly longer than “Hide in Shadows”.

I, personally, never like this skill especially now that Quickness was nerfed. The heal-per-attack is miniscule and almost laughable. If you compare this to Warrior’s Healing Signet, Warriors receives more healing by doing nothing.

Since it requires the thief to be doing something and it has a very long cooldown, the cost for the healing effect from this signet is too high in comparison to HiS.

So … Withdraw and Signet both bring some pretty compelling reasons to use them to the table … Why should I go into combat with my now crippled Hide in Shadows?

That is a misconception that is NOT shared by the Thief community. It seems that you are the only one who perceives that HiS is crippled.

- The changes in the mob aggro did not cripple HiS, in fact, seeing the mob stops and stare is actually a good thing since it allows me to reposition myself for a surprise attack.

- The changes in Revealed did not affect HiS at all since Revealed only takes into effect if you attack from stealth. The +1s Revealed is negligible compare to HiS’s cooldown.

- If dropping aggro is the main issue against HiS, using either SoM or Withdraw will still have this aggro issue. But the big difference is, even if aggro was not dropped, stealth prevents further damage because it makes the thief untargettable.

- If the main issue is healing, HiS has a better effective healing because it stops DoTs from causing further damage — where SoM and Withdraw cannot simply do. Plus, SoM and Withdraw are very vulnerable against Confusion.

HiS is great for PVP/WVW bc it gives you 4 seconds extra to hide/heal/reset in most builds. in SOME builds withdraw is better….it has a higher direct heal per 30 seconds and kills some CC skills/condis on yourself. in a bleed build with 22k hp i like withdraw bc i use the trait SHADOWS EMBRACE which allows me to remove 2 condis OR MORE if i use Shadow Refuge or dual invis skills EVERYTIMEi go invis!! …so….Cloack and dagger….then withdraw …removes pretty much every condition on you….most people can only stack 5 conditions at a time. make sure youlook how they stack as they remove conditions as the last one stacked first. so u might waanna withdraw then CND. all depends. i personally like withdraw…then CnD bc invis removing traits is unbiased and takes whatever u didnt get off from withdraw. so if ur using any sort of shadow arts aka invis build …withdraw is technically better. if ur NOT using that shadows embrace skill… Hide in shadows (HiS) is better…i very very very rarely use signet bc of the 40secs and mediocre direct heal. its good with dagger storm and caltrops and trick shot and suprise shot….but only in a zerg v zerg situation in my opinion. so again Withdraw is best…..then HiS……then signet……thats if ur looking at the skills when used with most builds….if u look at the skills just by themselves….HIS gives the best heal….but then again if ur chilled/crippled ur going to recieve alot more incoming dmg …..so u can theoretically add that into your heal on withdraw. there are very few thieves that use withdraw….but the ones that do are generally more talented thieves and much harder to kill. lemme know if u have any questions/comments. -orro the sly-

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I, personally, never like this skill especially now that Quickness was nerfed. The heal-per-attack is miniscule and almost laughable. If you compare this to Warrior’s Healing Signet, Warriors receives more healing by doing nothing.

Since it requires the thief to be doing something and it has a very long cooldown, the cost for the healing effect from this signet is too high in comparison to HiS.

SoM has a long cooldown? Since when? 15s down to 12s if traited… As for the heal on attack being miniscule it really does come down to build, in a level 80 zone a mobs gonna hit me for about 800-1300 damage, in the period between their attacks and my evasions I’ll heal around double that at the very least at 100 health per hit.

All the heals have their uses and their weaknesses, the stealth aggro nerf didn’t destroy HiS any more than it destroyed any other stealth skill outside of smokebomb, its still the biggest burst heal and such.

As for the confusion vulnerability, the other two aren’t THAT more vulnerable, if your going to die from activating the heal your going to die regardless of how much it heals, outside of that its just how much healing you get compared to the damage you take and how often your confused.

sorry to add 2 comments in a row….but…

ALSO…. ikitteneep using CnD to re invis after the previous invis ends…u can wipe all condis and heal up with (heal while invis) trait….ive personally had a few challengesi put on myself to revive a friend when theres 5-7 people attacking me….if used right HiS is not crippled at all…..it took about 60 seconds for me to keep reviving him til he got up while these 6 or so people attacked me in wvw….buti got up bc i didnt leave invis early and kept reentering. revealed crippled our defense and damage….not our skills… remember that. we recieve more dmg and have to blow our dodges early bc of those 4 secs…..we also lose alot of dmg bc of defending during that time and not attacking……

Hide in shadows is great for anything. It doesn’t remove agro but it stops mobs from attacking you giving you more than enough time to get out. In groups it often results in a boss switching agro and it gives you a free stealth opener. Do I even need to mention pvp?

Withdraw is the best heal imo, just turn your back to wherever you want to end up. Of course HiS is more beneficial to stealth builds though and removes the important DPS conditions.

Why is everyone making a big deal about stealth not dropping aggro? Before=I went into stealth, they went back to their spawn

current= I go into stealth, they sit there staring at where I once was like idiots.
It’s not like they still attack you and it gives you 3s (4 if traited) to run away or reposition.
I honestly don’t see that big a problem with stealth not dropping aggro it still hasn’t affected me.

Given the nature of these forums I know I shouldn’t say this, but perhaps thief heals are reasonably well balanced.

Dasorine.1964:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I, personally, never like this skill especially now that Quickness was nerfed. The heal-per-attack is miniscule and almost laughable. If you compare this to Warrior’s Healing Signet, Warriors receives more healing by doing nothing.

Since it requires the thief to be doing something and it has a very long cooldown, the cost for the healing effect from this signet is too high in comparison to HiS.

SoM has a long cooldown? Since when? 15s down to 12s if traited…

SoM has 1.25s cast time and 15s recharge time, thus the total cooldown between heals is 16.25s.

In a 30s span, comparing it to HiS recharge time, HiS heals for total of 6k, Withdraw heals for 8.8k and SoM heals for 6.6k, give or take few 100s per hit in 28s (you’re not hitting anything while casting SoM).

Effective healing of HiS is greater because you became untargetable preventing further damage, plus removing all DoTs.

Effective healing on Withdraw is based on the damage it evaded.

SoM effective healing is lacking. On top of that, you are not receiving heals from hits while SoM is recharging.

It’s a horrible healing skill.

Its my primary healing skill, I rarely ever click it, the idea is the passive healing should keep you up and the clickie (which for me is a 12s cooldown with the 1.25s cast) is an emergency omg im nearly dead and they are aoe’ing move for those times when I can’t be in the fight anyway.

Granted its much weaker in PvP where burst is everything, but even then I’ve managed to get good use out of it on zergs and such.

Dasorine.1964:

Its my primary healing skill, I rarely ever click it, the idea is the passive healing should keep you up and the clickie (which for me is a 12s cooldown with the 1.25s cast) is an emergency omg im nearly dead and they are aoe’ing move for those times when I can’t be in the fight anyway.

Granted its much weaker in PvP where burst is everything, but even then I’ve managed to get good use out of it on zergs and such.

If you’re only using the Active effect in case of an emergency, then cooldown time is of none issue. So why you questioned it; I have no idea.

But if you think that a 3.3K heal can save you in case of an emergency, then you’re just fooling yourself believing that. If you’re popping this every 16.25s, then you’re not really benefitting from the Passive heal because it is in constant recharge. You’re better off with Withdraw if you want to heal yourself that often.

Nevertheless, a 6K heal + DoT removal + untargetability (stealth) is your ticket out of any emergency situation.

3.3k is ample enough to take me out of the danger zone, but yeah they all have their own uses.

HiS is definitely the best heal in terms of pure healing and damage mitigation but the others are both just as good depending on playstyle and circumstances.

And of course theory crafting is all well and good but in reality you really shouldnt be needing heals on cooldown and such either so…

Yeah back to the original point, HiS is fine, not crippled does its job well, the other 2 also do their job well as well.

withdraw is better than HiS…but like a 51 to 49 differential

Travlane.5948:

withdraw is better than HiS…but like a 51 to 49 differential

With my healing power which is 200 from traits – HIS heals for 6060 counting the regen, while 2x withdraw heals me for 8928. I personally like the fact that it’s instant cast – I like the positioning and I love the CC breaks. As far as HIS removing DOT’s well I’m running d/p atm and stealthing to get those removed isn’t an issue.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nevertheless, a 6K heal + DoT removal + untargetability (stealth) is your ticket out of any emergency situation.

Try that against a decent player and you get a daze to the face and kiss the floor half a second later.
Withdraw > HiS, already because of cast time.

Dasorine.1964:

3.3k is ample enough to take me out of the danger zone, but yeah they all have their own uses.

HiS is definitely the best heal in terms of pure healing and damage mitigation but the others are both just as good depending on playstyle and circumstances.

And of course theory crafting is all well and good but in reality you really shouldnt be needing heals on cooldown and such either so…

Yeah back to the original point, HiS is fine, not crippled does its job well, the other 2 also do their job well as well.

I cannot agree that SoM is doing its job well, because it isn’t. It needs to do a better job.

There shouldn’t be a blackout time, where you’re not getting any heal at all. The passive should continue to work while the activated ability is on recharge.

There are other suggestions in this forum to make it a life steal.

As for the topic, the uselessness of the healing skill that should be in question is not HiS, but should be SoM.

naphack.9346:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nevertheless, a 6K heal + DoT removal + untargetability (stealth) is your ticket out of any emergency situation.

Try that against a decent player and you get a daze to the face and kiss the floor half a second later.
Withdraw > HiS, already because of cast time.

Regardless whether the player you are against with is decent or not, you should know better. If you are a decent player, you would CnD before HiS…unless of course you are speaking from experience.

Unless he is a ranger/necro/mesmer and you can CnD off the pets, already those CnDs might be impossible to achieve tho.
I mean, you try to CnD, warrior pulls a block on you, you try to HiS and eat his shield. Swap to GS, 100blades!

naphack.9346:

Unless he is a ranger/necro/mesmer and you can CnD off the pets, already those CnDs might be impossible to achieve tho.
I mean, you try to CnD, warrior pulls a block on you, you try to HiS and eat his shield. Swap to GS, 100blades!

You can always make up a scenario to make a skill look bad. I can do the same to make Withdraw and SoM look bad, but that doesn’t help in discussing which healing skill is useless. Making HiS look bad doesn’t necessarily makes SoM look better, in fact, you are making it look even worst.

SoM has worst casting time than HiS — if HiS can be interrupted, so much more SoM can be interrupted.

Did I ever say, SoM was good?
I am a withdraw guy through and through(at least for moderae builds… If your build is built around utilizing stealth for sneak attacks, it becomes a matter of taste.

naphack.9346:

Did I ever say, SoM was good?
I am a withdraw guy through and through(at least for moderae builds… If your build is built around utilizing stealth for sneak attacks, it becomes a matter of taste.

The reply you responded to that began our discussion was a reply to SoM being the ticket out of emergency situation.

Unless you neglect to acknowledge the topic of that reply, then you are implying to support SoM until you specifically mention which one you are supporting.

But to reiterate my point;

Making HiS look bad doesn’t necessarily makes <Withdraw> look better.

Does that work for you?

Here’s a scenario to make Withdraw look bad;

You have 10 stacks of Confusion and dying slowly from DoTs — should you Withdraw?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You have 10 stacks of Confusion and dying slowly from DoTs — should you Withdraw?

HiS does not remove confusion either.

Shadow Embrace does.

So either way, with 10 stacks of confusion, don’t use any skill until it wears off!

use a heal skill → confusion pops → you fall below 25% → last refuge pops → confusion pops → you die :>
Not even HiS would save you in this scenario

Vince I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree, I wouldn’t say no to them upping the passive healing of SoM but since I already outheal HiS with it I don’t really think it NEEDS it.

Over 30 seconds to beat my HiS (5798 heal with the regen but no stealth traits) I need to hit 58 times in 30 seconds, (101×58 = 5858) with dagger autoattacks at 2 hits a second giving a base possibility just by staying in autoattack range of 60 hits a second thats more than feasible on a condition build d/d or other high hit rate build while also having time to step back and evade hits.

Yes it lacks burst healing but makes up for it in sheer healing overtime in the right builds, just like how HiS gets much better the moment you start traiting stealth up or withdraw as you start traiting up evasion.