Guild Wars 2

As someone who feels like Stealth is not an overpowered mechanic but more of a semi frustrating one to fight against. The reason that stealth is frustrating is due to the fact that people under the effects of stealth can go into it where you can make good guesses and kill them or for all you know they could be halfway across the map.

I think a simple fix to this that would get rid of the frustrating part a bit without completely nerfing the class would be to simply let people continue to see the health bar of what they had targeted. I personally think this would add some good counterplay to the mechanic without nerfing it too hard.

To be clear, I do not want people to keep target of the target while in stealth. I ONLY want them to see the health bar, I am aware that this might not work with the way the program is currently written.

I think people don’t know which bar I am talking about. I mean the one you have at the very top of your screen that shows the hp of your intended target.

You don’t need to have a target to swing melee weapons at it, or cast AoE damage etc. Seeing the health of the poor thief would defeat the whole purpose of stealth (which means invisible).

You can already see numbers on your screen if you hit a stealthed character, as well as bleed / poison / burning ticks.

Stealth in this game is kittened, just make it like every single game before it and give the rogue class passive/30 second long stealth. Taking ANY damage will result in reveal.

This will allow us to fufill the role of assassin (taking out high value squishy targets in the backline) which is what we should be.

The problem with stealth in this game is that you can stealth in mid combat, meaning if you are smart (like me) you can tell if a fight is unwinnable very quickly, then all you have to do is stealth and run away and wait for a heal/cds and then try again(same goes for mesmers).

Reduce movement speed while in stealth or any action will cancel stealth. I.e. use of an attack, utility, or dodge.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Reduce movement speed while in stealth or any action will cancel stealth. I.e. use of an attack, utility, or dodge.

This would be an astronomical nerf to backstab as strafing behind someone would become impossible.

Who uses abilities in stealth anyways? it lasts 2 seconds, and is pretty much used exclusively to open up #1 alt skills, besides SR retreat/save.

Anelyn.4593:

You can already see numbers on your screen if you hit a stealthed character, as well as bleed / poison / burning ticks.

Since you can already see these kinds of numbers it wouldn’t defeat the purpose of it at all, it would just give you confirmation that you are actually hurting him whereas now if you hit him you don’t know if you just did 1 or 50% of his max hp and would make it feel less frustrating like you aren’t actually doing something.

TheAmpca.1753:

Anelyn.4593:

You can already see numbers on your screen if you hit a stealthed character, as well as bleed / poison / burning ticks.

Since you can already see these kinds of numbers it wouldn’t defeat the purpose of it at all, it would just give you confirmation that you are actually hurting him whereas now if you hit him you don’t know if you just did 1 or 50% of his max hp and would make it feel less frustrating like you aren’t actually doing something.

Thieves are made out of paper, if you put a big HERE I AM! sign ontop of them wile stealthed they will get wrekt by any competent player that actually has a brain (uses AoE/non target abilities were the HP bar is)

Maybe Give thieves the same base HP as Necros or Mesmers? lol

Zepidel.5349:

TheAmpca.1753:

Anelyn.4593:

You can already see numbers on your screen if you hit a stealthed character, as well as bleed / poison / burning ticks.

Since you can already see these kinds of numbers it wouldn’t defeat the purpose of it at all, it would just give you confirmation that you are actually hurting him whereas now if you hit him you don’t know if you just did 1 or 50% of his max hp and would make it feel less frustrating like you aren’t actually doing something.

Thieves are made out of paper, if you put a big HERE I AM! sign ontop of them wile stealthed they will get wrekt by any competent player that actually has a brain (uses AoE/non target abilities were the HP bar is)

Maybe Give thieves the same base HP as Necros or Mesmers? lol

I think people don’t know which bar I am talking about. I mean the one you have at the very top of your screen that shows the hp of your intended target.

TheAmpca.1753:

Zepidel.5349:

TheAmpca.1753:

Anelyn.4593:

You can already see numbers on your screen if you hit a stealthed character, as well as bleed / poison / burning ticks.

Since you can already see these kinds of numbers it wouldn’t defeat the purpose of it at all, it would just give you confirmation that you are actually hurting him whereas now if you hit him you don’t know if you just did 1 or 50% of his max hp and would make it feel less frustrating like you aren’t actually doing something.

Thieves are made out of paper, if you put a big HERE I AM! sign ontop of them wile stealthed they will get wrekt by any competent player that actually has a brain (uses AoE/non target abilities were the HP bar is)

Maybe Give thieves the same base HP as Necros or Mesmers? lol

I think people don’t know which bar I am talking about. I mean the one you have at the very top of your screen that shows the hp of your intended target.

That would defeat the purpose as well. Imagine laying a poison combo field, then seeing that a thief has poison on him. He is not invisible anymore, and with some experience, every player will know where every thief is, all the time, would just become a dead mechanic.

Zepidel.5349:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Reduce movement speed while in stealth or any action will cancel stealth. I.e. use of an attack, utility, or dodge.

This would be an astronomical nerf to backstab as strafing behind someone would become impossible.

Who uses abilities in stealth anyways? it lasts 2 seconds, and is pretty much used exclusively to open up #1 alt skills, besides SR retreat/save.

Stealth lasts 3-4 seconds and some thieves dodge roll to avoid damage and stack might. Others switch to SB and infiltrators arrow out because it doesn’t break stealth ( there is a bug in the game that seems like you are out of stealth but you aren’t). If the objective is to escape you can use shadowstep or SR to maintain stealth or lose enemies sight. D/P thieves can drop BP and HSx4 to maintain perma stealth. Adding revealed after an attack, utility, or dodge roll is used would raise the skill cap. Movement reduction wouldn’t be a good solution I suppose unless we gave increased stealth duration.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Zepidel.5349:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Reduce movement speed while in stealth or any action will cancel stealth. I.e. use of an attack, utility, or dodge.

This would be an astronomical nerf to backstab as strafing behind someone would become impossible.

Who uses abilities in stealth anyways? it lasts 2 seconds, and is pretty much used exclusively to open up #1 alt skills, besides SR retreat/save.

Adding revealed after an attack, utility, or dodge roll is used would raise the skill cap.

Wow, I can totally tell you play thief a whole lot. I bet you’re one of those players who’s got 1000+ hours on thief, which is probably your basis for why we should take the above drivel seriously.

Only an experienced thief would suggest stealth breaking on any sort of combo setup (like using a Sig or BV in stealth to set up some burst), or suggest that stealth players not be allowed to dodge, so anyone fighting a thief can know, for a fact, any skills pointed in their general direction will hit because they cant DODGE ROLL.

There’s absolutely no chance that you’re one of those players who is entirely clueless on how a thief plays because despite crying about how stealth works, you’ve never bothered to play one for an hour to get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses.

Like, 0 chance.

Moral of the thread: peeps want to make thief stealth like an ostrich hiding his head in sand. Everyone can see the ostrich, but the ostrich has the illusion he’s invisible.

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Zepidel.5349:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Reduce movement speed while in stealth or any action will cancel stealth. I.e. use of an attack, utility, or dodge.

This would be an astronomical nerf to backstab as strafing behind someone would become impossible.

Who uses abilities in stealth anyways? it lasts 2 seconds, and is pretty much used exclusively to open up #1 alt skills, besides SR retreat/save.

Adding revealed after an attack, utility, or dodge roll is used would raise the skill cap.

Wow, I can totally tell you play thief a whole lot. I bet you’re one of those players who’s got 1000+ hours on thief, which is probably your basis for why we should take the above drivel seriously.

Only an experienced thief would suggest stealth breaking on any sort of combo setup (like using a Sig or BV in stealth to set up some burst), or suggest that stealth players not be allowed to dodge, so anyone fighting a thief can know, for a fact, any skills pointed in their general direction will hit because they cant DODGE ROLL.

There’s absolutely no chance that you’re one of those players who is entirely clueless on how a thief plays because despite crying about how stealth works, you’ve never bothered to play one for an hour to get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses.

Like, 0 chance.

My first 80 was a thief which I deleted due to the sheer lack of skill required to either steam roll players or escape. Since they have finally begun to tone thieves down I decided to re-roll and see if I can spark life back in to my desire to have a stealth class.

Probably not 1000+ hours on the thief. Heck, I wouldn’t even suspect 500+. But enough to understand that thieves should not have the ability to spam backstab while in stealth with no consequences. If I use an attack on my warrior or guardian it goes on cooldown, whether I connected or not. I see this as more of a balancing approach then stealth breaking.

They can’t spam BS. It’s one BS per stealth (aka, as soon as you hit someone with BS or any ability from stealth, stealth breaks and you get the revealed debuff).

Now you’re trying to argue semantics of CD based classes vs initiative. Why are we having this discussion again?

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Zepidel.5349:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Reduce movement speed while in stealth or any action will cancel stealth. I.e. use of an attack, utility, or dodge.

This would be an astronomical nerf to backstab as strafing behind someone would become impossible.

Who uses abilities in stealth anyways? it lasts 2 seconds, and is pretty much used exclusively to open up #1 alt skills, besides SR retreat/save.

Adding revealed after an attack, utility, or dodge roll is used would raise the skill cap.

Wow, I can totally tell you play thief a whole lot. I bet you’re one of those players who’s got 1000+ hours on thief, which is probably your basis for why we should take the above drivel seriously.

Only an experienced thief would suggest stealth breaking on any sort of combo setup (like using a Sig or BV in stealth to set up some burst), or suggest that stealth players not be allowed to dodge, so anyone fighting a thief can know, for a fact, any skills pointed in their general direction will hit because they cant DODGE ROLL.

There’s absolutely no chance that you’re one of those players who is entirely clueless on how a thief plays because despite crying about how stealth works, you’ve never bothered to play one for an hour to get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses.

Like, 0 chance.

My first 80 was a thief which I deleted due to the sheer lack of skill required to either steam roll players or escape. Since they have finally begun to tone thieves down I decided to re-roll and see if I can spark life back in to my desire to have a stealth class.

Probably not 1000+ hours on the thief. Heck, I wouldn’t even suspect 500+. But enough to understand that thieves should not have the ability to spam backstab while in stealth with no consequences. If I use an attack on my warrior or guardian it goes on cooldown, whether I connected or not. I see this as more of a balancing approach then stealth breaking.

- No protection
- No stability
- No Aegis
- Poor regen access
- Lowest base HP pool
- No immunity skills
- No psuedo immunity skills (ex. Endure Pain)
- No Blocks
- Narrowest weapon selection in the game
- Shortest range in the game
- Among the worst at removing Conditions (unless you spec SA and live in stealth)
- Longest CD on class skill (I might be a little off on this one after the steal CD reduction, but I think this still holds true)
- Cant cap/decap/hold a point while in stealth
- Sacrifices the most and gains the least from attempting to spec defensively

But yeah, thieves don’t sacrifice anything for those missed backstabs not revealing them.

Anelyn.4593:

Moral of the thread: peeps want to make thief stealth like an ostrich hiding his head in sand. Everyone can see the ostrich, but the ostrich has the illusion he’s invisible.

No morale and truth is different.
People pretend to kitten any single thief with any single build they have.
Maybe they are specced for zerg/support/guild group etc and they PRETEND to kill a class specced for 1vs1 pressing 2 skills only.
Can be hard can be annoy but is plenty of video about good players, with the right build, who win against thieves.

Anelyn.4593:

They can’t spam BS. It’s one BS per stealth (aka, as soon as you hit someone with BS or any ability from stealth, stealth breaks and you get the revealed debuff).

Now you’re trying to argue semantics of CD based classes vs initiative. Why are we having this discussion again?

I was speaking to the ability to target someone and spam BS while in stealth and it not break stealth till it connected or blocked. Sorry if I didn’t go in to detail on that description.

Stealth in general is fine. Only change the following:
- Nerf combo stealth (BP + HS/Clusterbomb).
- Reveal on block/miss.

Not sure if this is widely known, but the Pistol sneak attack gives you 5 100% projectile finishers. Using a water field and deselecting your target, it’s possible to stack quite a good amount of regeneration.

Why would it break stealth if it doesn’t hit anything? Is not like you’re taking any damage if he ain’t hitting with the BS because he’s not in range etc.

If stealth worked differently than it does currently, like let’s say I enter stealth for 3s and all attack I do during this period keep me stealthed so you can’t see me but you are getting hit by my attacks, then I could understand.

Iavra.8510:

Stealth in general is fine. Only change the following:
- Nerf combo stealth (BP + HS/Clusterbomb).
- Reveal on block/miss.

Not sure if this is widely known, but the Pistol sneak attack gives you 5 100% projectile finishers. Using a water field and deselecting your target, it’s possible to stack quite a good amount of regeneration.

If you think reveal on miss is a viable option, you don’t understand the class well enough to be commenting on it. There’s literally no simpler way to put that.

Reveal on block also isn’t a good idea, but at least that one is open to debate.

Well, okay, but it should break when:
- the stealth attack gets blocked.
- it misses due to blind.

When a dagger hits my shield this should be a very clear sign that there is a thief nearby. So it should reveal.

Black Cat.1024:

TheAmpca.1753:

Zepidel.5349:

TheAmpca.1753:

Anelyn.4593:

You can already see numbers on your screen if you hit a stealthed character, as well as bleed / poison / burning ticks.

Since you can already see these kinds of numbers it wouldn’t defeat the purpose of it at all, it would just give you confirmation that you are actually hurting him whereas now if you hit him you don’t know if you just did 1 or 50% of his max hp and would make it feel less frustrating like you aren’t actually doing something.

Thieves are made out of paper, if you put a big HERE I AM! sign ontop of them wile stealthed they will get wrekt by any competent player that actually has a brain (uses AoE/non target abilities were the HP bar is)

Maybe Give thieves the same base HP as Necros or Mesmers? lol

I think people don’t know which bar I am talking about. I mean the one you have at the very top of your screen that shows the hp of your intended target.

That would defeat the purpose as well. Imagine laying a poison combo field, then seeing that a thief has poison on him. He is not invisible anymore, and with some experience, every player will know where every thief is, all the time, would just become a dead mechanic.

That’s the point. You can use aoes to search for a thief like say with a poison field but you wont get an exact location and you wont be able to target anyone. The thief really shouldn’t get hit with more than 1-2 spells unless he is just standing there.

Iavra.8510:

Well, okay, but it should break when:
- the stealth attack gets blocked.
- it misses due to blind.

When a dagger hits my shield this should be a very clear sign that there is a thief nearby. So it should reveal.

When the shield strapped to your left arm can stop the dagger aimed at your spine, we’ll talk.

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Zepidel.5349:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Reduce movement speed while in stealth or any action will cancel stealth. I.e. use of an attack, utility, or dodge.

This would be an astronomical nerf to backstab as strafing behind someone would become impossible.

Who uses abilities in stealth anyways? it lasts 2 seconds, and is pretty much used exclusively to open up #1 alt skills, besides SR retreat/save.

Adding revealed after an attack, utility, or dodge roll is used would raise the skill cap.

<Insert nonconstructive rubbish in an attempt to troll here>

...... But enough to understand that thieves should not have the ability to spam backstab while in stealth with no consequences. If I use an attack on my warrior or guardian it goes on cooldown, whether I connected or not. I see this as more of a balancing approach then stealth breaking.

- No protection - True
- No stability - True but great access to stun breakers that include mobility. Bladestorm.
- No Aegis - True
- Poor regen access - A decent amount of traits available.
- Lowest base HP pool - True
- No immunity skills - True
- No psuedo immunity skills (ex. Endure Pain) - Bladestorm for projectiles.
- No Blocks - True but high access to blinds.
- Narrowest weapon selection in the game - True until Anet does something about that.
- Shortest range in the game - After CB’s nerf, true.
- Among the worst at removing Conditions (unless you spec SA and live in stealth) - True
- Longest CD on class skill (I might be a little off on this one after the steal CD reduction, but I think this still holds true) - In comparison to classes only have 1 class ability,
- Cant cap/decap/hold a point while in stealth
- Sacrifices the most and gains the least from attempting to spec defensively

But yeah, thieves don’t sacrifice anything for those missed backstabs not revealing them.

- No protection - True
- No stability - Great access to stun breakers that include mobility. Bladestorm, but true for easy access to the boon.
- No Aegis - True but high access to blinds.
- Poor regen access - A decent amount of traits available. I can think of 4 off the top of my head.
- Lowest base HP pool - True
- No immunity skills - True
- No psuedo immunity skills (ex. Endure Pain) - Bladestorm for projectiles.
- No Blocks - See Aegis...
- Narrowest weapon selection in the game - True until Anet does something about that.
- Shortest range in the game - After CB’s nerf, true.
- Among the worst at removing Conditions (unless you spec SA and live in stealth) - True
- Longest CD on class skill (I might be a little off on this one after the steal CD reduction, but I think this still holds true) - In comparison to classes that only have 1 class ability, true. Lowest you can get steal is like 20 seconds.
- Cant cap/decap/hold a point while in stealth - Yeah but this was needed. It was absurd for a thief to run around and CnD targets while avoiding damage to keep caps contested in WvW at least.
- Sacrifices the most and gains the least from attempting to spec defensively - All classes can experience this issue as well. It’s about playstyle, gear makeup, and your choice of traits.

I’m not going to argue that thieves need some positive changes. I just believe there should be consequence for using BS in stealth which doesn’t connect to anything. In regards to the OP I would be ok with having perma stealth out of combat but maintaining current design while in combat. This would allow thieves to always get the first attempt to attack since they are built primarily for offense.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

- No protection – True
- No stability – Great access to stun breakers that include mobility. Bladestorm, but true for easy access to the boon.
- No Aegis – True but high access to blinds.
- Poor regen access – A decent amount of traits available. I can think of 4 off the top of my head.
- Lowest base HP pool – True
- No immunity skills – True
- No psuedo immunity skills (ex. Endure Pain) – Bladestorm for projectiles.
- No Blocks – See Aegis…
- Narrowest weapon selection in the game – True until Anet does something about that.
- Shortest range in the game – After CB’s nerf, true.
- Among the worst at removing Conditions (unless you spec SA and live in stealth) – True
- Longest CD on class skill (I might be a little off on this one after the steal CD reduction, but I think this still holds true) – In comparison to classes that only have 1 class ability, true. Lowest you can get steal is like 20 seconds.
- Cant cap/decap/hold a point while in stealth – Yeah but this was needed. It was absurd for a thief to run around and CnD targets while avoiding damage to keep caps contested in WvW at least.
- Sacrifices the most and gains the least from attempting to spec defensively – All classes can experience this issue as well. It’s about playstyle, gear makeup, and your choice of traits.

2 of those regen traits compete with (and are completely trumped by) better traits in the SA tree. The only one that might be worth slotting is Pain response – it’s a decent defensive trait, but doesn’t lead to the kind of regen you need for a “sustain” build.

Stun breaker <> Stability, in any way shape or form. Stability allows you to ignore CC, not escape it, the two aren’t directly comparable.

Dagger Storm’s stability is only there to keep any player with a stun/kb/kd/launch/daze (IE, literally any player) from absolutely ruining your 90s CD elite – it does not “give the thief stability” it allows Dagger storm to actually be used. Reflecting projectiles is not quite the same as psuedo immunity – endure pain lets you ignore everything but conditions. Melee still hurts while reflecting projectiles.

Don’t get me wrong, my list wasn’t a list of complaints – it was just a (long) list of things the thief gives up for their playstyle, which seems fine to me (for the most part)

Heres a question for you dweebs. Have any of you ever played the thief/rogue class in ANY other MMO?

GW2 has the crappiest stealth mechanic ever, the lengths of the stealth are pitiful and make setting up surprise attacks impossible. Thief is about a sneaky as a bear, and honestly I feel like a kitten warrior that spent 2 weeks training in the mountains with Daniel-sama training to be a ninja.

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

...nomnom...

2 of those regen traits compete with (and are completely trumped by) better traits in the SA tree. The only one that might be worth slotting is Pain response - it’s a decent defensive trait, but doesn’t lead to the kind of regen you need for a "sustain" build.

Stun breaker =/= Stability, in any way shape or form. Stability allows you to ignore CC, not escape it, the two aren’t directly comparable.

Dagger Storm’s stability is only there to keep any player with a stun/kb/kd/launch/daze (IE, literally any player) from absolutely ruining your 90s CD elite - it does not "give the thief stability" it allows Dagger storm to actually be used. Reflecting projectiles is not quite the same as psuedo immunity - endure pain lets you ignore everything but conditions. Melee still hurts while reflecting projectiles.

Don’t get me wrong, my list wasn’t a list of complaints - it was just a (long) list of things the thief gives up for their play style, which seems fine to me (for the most part)

What are your thoughts on possible fixes or adjustments for stealth?

@Zepidel - Yes, I feel the stealth in this game is rather terrible and they built a class around the idea that making stealth more available would outweigh the use of boons and effective weapon combinations.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

…nomnom…

2 of those regen traits compete with (and are completely trumped by) better traits in the SA tree. The only one that might be worth slotting is Pain response – it’s a decent defensive trait, but doesn’t lead to the kind of regen you need for a “sustain” build.

Stun breaker =/= Stability, in any way shape or form. Stability allows you to ignore CC, not escape it, the two aren’t directly comparable.

Dagger Storm’s stability is only there to keep any player with a stun/kb/kd/launch/daze (IE, literally any player) from absolutely ruining your 90s CD elite – it does not “give the thief stability” it allows Dagger storm to actually be used. Reflecting projectiles is not quite the same as psuedo immunity – endure pain lets you ignore everything but conditions. Melee still hurts while reflecting projectiles.

Don’t get me wrong, my list wasn’t a list of complaints – it was just a (long) list of things the thief gives up for their play style, which seems fine to me (for the most part)

What are your thoughts on possible fixes or adjustments for stealth?

@Zepidel – Yes, I feel the stealth in this game is rather terrible and they built a class around the idea that making stealth more available would outweigh the use of boons and effective weapon combinations.

Leap finishers out of a smoke field get a 4s ICD. Stealth granted by Leap finishers through a smoke field are extended 1s Base (so 4s instead of 3s), and properly work with Meld With Shadows (15 point SA minor trait which extends stealth by 1s, doesn’t work with stealth granted by BP->HS as far as I recall, would extend total stealth to 5s).

This way, D/P gets a decent amount of stealth time (They lose 1s during the end of the HS animation, which Is why I suggested extending the base 1s), and can’t camera angle exploit for 4 stacks of stealth out of 1 BP.

That’s about the only thing I’d change – Stealth is absolutely fine as it is otherwise, but players who stack 12s of stealth by angling their camera’s to shorten the HS leap and therefore get 3-4 leaps through 1 BP are exploiting IMO. The game wasn’t designed for thieves to have 9-12s of uninterrupted stealth on demand via weaponset skills.

evilapprentice.6379:

Iavra.8510:

Well, okay, but it should break when:
- the stealth attack gets blocked.
- it misses due to blind.

When a dagger hits my shield this should be a very clear sign that there is a thief nearby. So it should reveal.

When the shield strapped to your left arm can stop the dagger aimed at your spine, we’ll talk.

I’m still curious as to why Stealth attacks are not Unblockable yet.

Stealth is already bad enough as it is, with channeled abilities tracking stealthed players. There’s also the fact that there is a few pulls that can be used after the player goes into stealth and will still track. If you want to make changes to it, make CC not track players unless they’re not in stealth.