Guild Wars 2

To start this off, I’m just going to say I use the word “nerf” in the title because it’s a nice small word that gets my point across in a general manner – I’m not here to argue whether or not HS and PW changes were fair, unfair, etc. In addition, this post is entirely from a PvP standpoint.

Now, to my point – For the love of God, can you fix some of our broken weaponsets before you make any more changes to the few weaponsets everyone uses because they’re the only functional ones? Look at your usage statistics, how many thieves do you see running S/D at a competitive level, or in Tourneys. How about Rank 25+ players? Same thing goes for P/P.

Why do you think there is so much HS spam? Is it because shadow shot is worthless as a closer on a moving target? Thieves ALREADY HAVE the narrowest weapon selection of any class in the game (Ele’s get attunements, Engi’s get kits), why are we locked into using an even smaller selection due to abilities that just don’t work? it’s been more than a month since launch, how is it we can still have abilities that don’t function properly?

Just in case you’re somehow unaware of the issues, I’ll lay them out here. Flanking strike does kind of crappy damage, has a long animation time, and doesn’t hit moving targets almost at all due to the arc of the animation swing – here’s a simple fix, change it a slice animation opener that triggers a shadowstep/stab to your targets backside. There you go, ability mostly fixed. 1,2 and 3 in P/P are just a hot mess – Vital shot screams “Condition build”, Body shot screams “Filler ability no one will ever use, replace before launch”, and Unload meekly whines “Direct damage, sort of i guess”. If any players doubt me, try to remember the last time you fought a P/P thief. If you can actually remember, do you also remember stomping him into the ground while you thought “what’s this guy trying to do?”. Anet, if you doubt me, again, check your statistics. As for shadow shot, its a closer in a melee setup that temporarily roots you on hit – that’s nearly as bad as Flanking strike, and it makes it worthless on a moving target. P/D, while functional, is a silly build – I run it, and the only way to do decent damage is CnD, Sneak attack, auto attack for 3 seconds, repeat. Its a strat that works, but is extremely simplistic, boring, and predictable. And Basilisk venom – Really? Look, I get it if you want to claim 1-1.5 seconds of unbreakable CC is too powerful; I wont argue that – but you kept the cast time? It was already considered the absolute worst of a thieves elites (with the exception of glass cannon backstab setup), and you made it breakable, extended the duration a lousy .5s, and KEPT THE CAST TIME?

Most of what you see on the SPvP boards concerning thieves is kittening about Constant stealth ->Backstab and Pistol Whip builds – can you guess why that is Anet? It’s because S/P and D/D are our only well built weaponsets that work correctly and consistently (for the most part). I love the game, I really do – I think you guys have done an amazing job in a dozen different ways, but it’s still hard to understand how the class with the narrowest weapon selection -still- has issues (ranging from minor to game breaking) with most of their weaponsets.

I completely agree too.And to add something as proposition :Swap the Dual Skills of P/D and D/P for a start.

Shintai.5618:

Nerfing is the cheapest method. And thats the key issue.

I don’t really want to get into a discussion concerning nerfs (an unwarranted change to an ability) or changes (a warranted change to an ability). I don’t have any empirical way to claim the HS and PW changes were fair, unfair, needed, etc…

The point is Anet,why are you sinking effort into changing our small set of abilities that work rather than fixing the large list of abilities that don’t work to various degrees? Especially considering we have so few weapon choices. You see SO many people QQing about 1 or 2 thief builds because those are our only viable builds at the moment, mainly due to the fact that more than a month after launch most of our weaponsets are crippled by dysfunctional abilities or just plain poor design

Thief fixing and rebalancing will happen.

Currently there’re tons of thing not working/ not working as intended and all the stuff.

Thief damage is over the top in any case, but it’s kinda “forced”, since to enhance our defenses we lose TONS of damage, making thief builds kinda unilateral.

Probably the thief prof should be reconsidered, and that’s why in structured PvP forum devs created a thread dedicated EXCLUSIVELY to thief opinions.

I run no cookie cutter build, i run an S/D build in tourneys, but, altough the dazelock is fun and useful, FS being so bad is really, REALLY destroying the versatility of the set. Even with correct pathing, it would be useless due to C&D + tactical strike being almost always better than a simple boon strip+ medium damage.

Moreover, for tourneys, it’s not possible to make a build without the shortbow, it’s an absolute must have.

I like the thief and the way it plays, but the proff really feels very wrong.

At least devs seem to start understand it.

edit:

The point is that those “fixes” are not top priority.

PvP has no ranking system, no ladders, no spectator mode, no custom arenas, it’s full of bugs etc etc.

It would be ridicolous to believe they’ll fix/rebalance the thief ( or any other proff) before putting all those features live.

We have to wait. And we’ll wait a lot, no doubt about it.

@mrbig

I do understand what you’re saying and agree for the most part, but my problem is they’ve found the manpower to reduce HS and PW damage, even though we don’t have ranking, leaderboards and so on.

The class is at the moment -extremely- boring to play because we get funneled into D/D burst or P/W Burst for 2 reasons -

1) Our survivability mechanics are very poorly suited for capture point, which means we’re often most useful when we’re bursting
2)Our viable weaponsets are extremely limited (and as you mentioned Shortbow basically always HAS to be one of them)

I understand that things like the much needed P/P redesign are going to take time, and I don’t expect everything to work perfectly, but kitten rangers currently have a working version of flanking strike and Inf Strike doesn’t root you the same way shadow shot does; Is it so hard to ask them to mirror the way currently functioning abilities work to fix our currently broken abilities?

@evil

As i said, and i know it very well since i main S/D from betas, making FS to simply work wouldn’t change anything, it would still be worse than C&D + tactical strike ( with mesmer runes or sigil of paralyzation for an almost 3 secs daze).

A boon stripping is not enough to justify 4 ini when you have better options at the same cost: it’s initiative nature.

The same is for shadow shot: HS closes the gap as well, it doesn’t root, it deals more damage, it’s a combo finisher. It costs LESS INI.

If i have to blind my opponent, SS is suboptimal to BPS ( unless in very, VERY specific situations) since it blinds from range ( the shot also blinds) and creates a combo field, making , with HS, a free stealth+ blind + AoE combo field pulsing blind+ gap closer+ easy backstab for 6 ini. While SS only offers a gap closer + blind. For 4 ini.

Initiative is absolutely about maximizing your resources: it’s a reward/cost constant ratio.

Currently SS and FS are “almost” ( if not in very, VERY specific situations) subpar to all other skills of the same weaponset.

They need a complete redesign. Just like P/P. This hoping they really want to make the thief viable in different ways.

This will take time. Lots of it. There’re other things being top priority, and thief rebalancing is currently not among them.

You, and all other thief players, need to be patient. That’s all i can say.

Mrbig.8019:

@evil

As i said, and i know it very well since i main S/D from betas, making FS to simply work wouldn’t change anything, it would still be worse than C&D + tactical strike ( with mesmer runes or sigil of paralyzation for an almost 3 secs daze).

A boon stripping is not enough to justify 4 ini when you have better options at the same cost: it’s initiative nature.

The same is for shadow shot: HS closes the gap as well, it doesn’t root, it deals more damage, it’s a combo finisher. It costs LESS INI.

If i have to blind my opponent, SS is suboptimal to BPS ( unless in very, VERY specific situations) since it blinds from range ( the shot also blinds) and creates a combo field, making , with HS, a free stealth+ blind + AoE combo field pulsing blind+ gap closer+ easy backstab for 6 ini. While SS only offers a gap closer + blind. For 4 ini.

Initiative is absolutely about maximizing your resources: it’s a reward/cost constant ratio.

Currently SS and FS are “almost” ( if not in very, VERY specific situations) subpar to all other skills of the same weaponset.

They need a complete redesign. Just like P/P. This hoping they really want to make the thief viable in different ways.

This will take time. Lots of it. There’re other things being top priority, and thief rebalancing is currently not among them.

You, and all other thief players, need to be patient. That’s all i can say.

Again, I agree with you to an extent and feel I should re-phrase. Obviously, re-balancing needs to take a backseat. I should not have mentioned P/P (even though its so poorly designed its infuriating) and other balance issues in my post; even though they’re frustrating, that’s the kind of change that will take time, resources, and testing, and obviously come after more important updates.

I still disagree however concerning broken abilities – as much as I’d like ladder, leaderboards, and so on, they’re all pointless until 95%+ of ALL classes abilities work correctly. SS is only useless because of the root (which I’m assuming is unintentional) – without the root, its double the range of HS, does better damage over 50% (and I believe it does better or similar damage in the 50-25% range too, tho i am not sure), and Blinds – it definitely has a place in D/P. Scorpion wire fails constantly across open ground, making the skill a liability to use. FS is in worse shape, needing a fix in the mechanics and a re-examining of the damage. There’s no reason the mechanics shouldn’t be fixed immediately however; they already have an ability on another class that does the same thing and works correctly. I’m assuming you’re correct, and that the skill would be mostly useless due to sub-par damage, but considering it’s such a simple fix (To Anet – I’m assuming its a simple fix because there is already an existing ability for Rangers that works correctly, and does exactly what flanking strike is supposed to mechanically), why not put it in so that 5% of the time when FS is a good choice, it can be used?

I’m sure there are other issues with other classes – classes abilities working correctly should be the focus of updates. One abilities work as intended, then we can move on to leaderboards and the such, then later on, balancing.

I agree with the OP. This is lazy balancing and the devs know it. To be honest, A-net’s slow, unresponsive, non-communicative, and flat-out lazy balancing of both my thief (who I think is OP) and my elementalist (which is almost worthless) has caused me to hardly play at all these last couple of weeks.

I’ve just been playing LoL, which is at least SEMI-balanced (’cept Darius, Jax, and Rengar… lolol)

I’m so tired of being punished for rolling a thief. It took me quite a while to get to level 80 because I have a day job. I get kicked out of dungeon groups because quite frankly, no one wants to see a thief in their party. I dread every time I see a new update because I just know we’re getting hit with another nerf. HS, PW, Basilisk venom, Assassin’s Signet, Revealed time…now people are crying about dagger storm…sigh~

Agreed. This isn’t a thief specific issue. I think it is asinine to start balancing when so many class traits, sigils/runes, and skills aren’t working as intended ( or don’t work, period ).

My poor, poor Ranger, how I want to love you. Why are you so mean to me.

Shinjo.6092:

I’m so tired of being punished for rolling a thief. It took me quite a while to get to level 80 because I have a day job. I get kicked out of dungeon groups because quite frankly, no one wants to see a thief in their party. I dread every time I see a new update because I just know we’re getting hit with another nerf. HS, PW, Basilisk venom, Assassin’s Signet, Revealed time…now people are crying about dagger storm…sigh~

I took a while to level 80 too, but I am always welcome in dungeons and in-fact I usually run dungeons with 1 or 2 other thieves, not sure what you are doing wrong, but it’s not a broken profession in dungeons, sure some skills/weapons etc etc are broken, but that isn’t reason enough to not want our profession in dungeons. we offer great damage and utility.

Every patch is a nerf for thieves, but does not address many of the problems we face as a class. Ok sure, backstab builds were a little nuts with the amount of raw frontloaded burst dmg.. But maybe if we had other options, we would take them… I would love a little more surviveability at the sacrifice of some burst.

/bump for truth of topic.

List of broken things for thief atm:
- Venoms (Worthless, I made a thread about it.)
- Traps.
- D/D, Shortbow is the only weapons we have.
- Broken Traits, we don’t even have a critical bleeding trait.
- Trees don’t go together very well.

At least thief has some good builds. Anet is prioritizing other classes ATM and making it so thief doesn’t destroy everything before the fixes come.

I believe ranger is next for fixing. They have an entire subset of utility skills that are so useless they’re laughable (spirits), most of their other skills are pretty bad except for traps, 1 signet, and 1 shout. They only have 1 weapon that does any decent DPS because all their other weapons have something wrong with them. Their traits don’t mesh at all, and their pets can’t hit moving targets.

Then i’m guessing ele’s who are only successful as bunkers. From what i heard 2 of their trait trees are useless, and from what ive played i can pull off massive flashy burst combos while doing less damage and having half the HP of a burst warrior.

Then maybe necros, who are bugged up the kitten

Then maybe thieves.

Thief is my main and i love P/P. If the next patch came with a change to P/P skills that actually made them meld together i would be really happy. Unfortunately we probably won’t get that change because half the classes have massive problems.